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RRNL
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.27 11:46:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: RRNL on 07/05/2011 11:16:02

twice discussed in Iceland YARRRR!!


Black ops need some new love. The previous boost has not been really a succes acourding to the Qen Q3 they are currently the most unpopulair ship in eve. Maybe they need a new role in general (like the stealth bombers) or just some more tweaking, examle, the jump range need some love. With jdc 5 u can jump 4.5 ly max. I think covert cyno's will be more populair if the max range get a boost.

Black Ops are not solo pwn ship's, they need to be flown in groups to be effective. Currently the most populair Black Ops are the Widow (ecm) and the Redeemer (damage). The Panther and the Sin are not so succesfull as the other 2 mentioned. My proposal is ether to revieuw the Sin and the panther, revieuw the Black Ops bonusses or revieuw them in general.




Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.08 20:57:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 31/12/2010 15:35:18
Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 11/10/2010 11:38:11
Changes needed:
Sin:
-Sin needs 2000 base power more, a lol 8800 (ccp did u forgot a 1 in front of the 8800? redeemer has 17000 base power) base power on a semi hybrid boat is fail
-Remove all turret slots and replace 5 % hybrid damage bonus for a 25m3 drone bandwidth usage bonus per gallente bs level and increase max drone usage from 5 to 10 (max dps 950 with ogre's).
-Change agility bonus to a 7,5% bonus in max velocity of drone flight time
-Give sin the special bonus of scooping drones from 7,500 meters and deploying drones at 5,000 meter.

Redeemer:
-Need a 30% boost in large pulse damage and a reduction from 125m3 drone to 25m3 drone bandwidth)

Widow:
-Needs a 200 cpu boost
-Needs 25% boost in torpedo dps
-Needs a slight boost in cap recharge 10-20%

Panther:
-Needs 1 extra mid slot
-Needs a 40% boost in projectile dps and a reduction from 125m3 to 25m5 drone bandwidth
-Velocity bonus need to be changed in a 10% fall off bonus per Black Op level

Changes in general:
-Range increase from max 4,5ly to 6,5ly
-Range formula should get an exception that the Black Op can always jump 1 system jump. Some systems with + 4,5ly (10ly-20ly, A to B with +4,5ly range need to be done manually in the current state)
-Standard fuel bay increase from 1000m3 to 3000m3
-A bonus should be given to the fuel bay amount when a Black Op Jump Portal is fitted, it will add a additional X amount of m3 of fuel bay per black op level, example adds 3000m3 to fuel bay per Black Op level.
-The Black Op Jump Portal should give a 10% reduction in fuel usage of that module per Black Op level. Currently a recon that bridges uses 1500-1600 fuel while only 6666 fits in the fuel bay

new:
-All bo should use same type of fuel.

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.08 23:25:00 - [3]
 

12-20 light years?!?! No way! That is way over powered. Now I would be more for a 25% boost in range max. It is a battleship, not a capital ship. Change your proposal to something more reasonable and I will give it a thumbs up.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.09 16:08:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen on 09/11/2009 22:36:14
Qen Q3

"The least popular ship group that we can report
on was the Black Ops battleship, with only 225
characters piloting them at the time of the
snapshot."

The above means that there are even moar titans piloted at the time of the snapshot than Black Ops...

ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.11.10 02:11:00 - [5]
 

Blackops need the most:

Hp buffed to at least the same as their t1 hulls.
Some t2 racial resists. 40/20 would be excellent.
Improved jump range (4 - 6.5ly base)
Useful t2 bonuses
Jump portal functioning with standard cyno gens (pos mod)
Additional turret on panther.

Currently, the blackops can't even jump/bridge over most border systems, supposedly one of the main uses of BOs. At best, they can bridge about 3 jumps (in-region jumps), which is more or less useless. Never mind any sort of normal travel via jump drive is impossible, again due to horrid range.

Widow is the only ship that has functional t2 bonuses, agility bonuses? speed bonuses? wtf? The redeemer's bonus is at least not completely useless, but the rest.... ugh.

I'd propose something like:
Redeemer:

7.5% to large energy tracking, 10% to large energy optimal per level

Sin

7.5% to drone mwd speed per level, +10km drone control range per level

Panther

7.5% to large projectile tracking, 10% to large projectile falloff per level

Widow

30% bonus to ECM target jammer strength, 10% to cruise missile and torpedo flight time per level


The sin will always be sub-par as a black ops due to using drones: impossible to stay aloof because you can't align with sentries and/or have to wait for heavies to return. Panther could use another turret and/or being changed to be a shield tank ship. Thankfully, the AC fix panthers wont be too badly off

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2009.11.10 03:48:00 - [6]
 

Quote:
Maybe they need a new role in general (like the stealth bombers) or just some more tweaking, examle, the jump range need some love. With jdc 5 u can jump 4.5 ly max. I think covert cyno's will be more populair if the max range get a boost.

No they simply need to get unnerfed. They originally nerfed the stats because they thought they'd become the OMGSOLOPWNMOBILE.

1. Maximum Target Range nerfed vs t1 variant. Which is crazy. afaik no other t2 ship had this happen.
2. 25% @ lvl 5 Agility bonus on sin; yet 50% more mass.
3. Non-existent t2 resistances 10% for kin? meh?
4. 20% less armor/shields/strucutre then t1
5. Less powergrid yet more slots
6. less guns

That's for the sin moreso. Which is what I fly. Just for comparison. I happen to be in my oneiros atm as logistics 5 is almost done and i'm changing my fitting slightly. Anyway. Oneiros has...

1. 33% more maximum targeting range over t1
2. Oneiros is slightly less agile. but fairly acceptable. Plus oneiros generally matched up with command ships and battleships. So not an issue.
3. 48.75% more kin res vs 10% more for sin AND 32.5% more thermal res vs NO CHANGE for thermal on sin
4. 33% more armor/shields/structure then t1
5. has fitting bonus over t1
6. well gets 4 large rr vs 1 large rr or 4 large rr to 4 medium rr.


So how about we unnerf these? We dont need to talk about making them jump further or such.

Quote:
Improved jump range (4 - 6.5ly base)

That really only may lead to other issues i wont mention.

Quote:
Jump portal functioning with standard cyno gens (pos mod)

Black ops and titans can lock onto any sort of cyno. including beacons.

My suggestion would be the allowance for black ops to lock onto ANY alliance beacon. Regardless of alliance association. Which isnt that overpowered as you cant exactly move much to that enemy pos; that the pos cant alpha.

Quote:
Currently, the blackops can't even jump/bridge over most border systems, supposedly one of the main uses of BOs. At best, they can bridge about 3 jumps (in-region jumps), which is more or less useless. Never mind any sort of normal travel via jump drive is impossible, again due to horrid range.

This is true. However by design sadly.

Quote:
Sin 7.5% to drone mwd speed per level, +10km drone control range per level

This isnt that bad. Then again. I really like the agility. Cloaked velocity is fairly useless. On a ship so fat Anyway. Presumably. You jump into a camp. You ab/mwd-cloak and even with all that. You really arent going to get away from inties who run at you. The cloaked velocity would only work if it was like 1,000% per level. Then you're practically nano while cloaked. Which would be very fun but I cant see that happen.

THERE ARE MORE TITANS THEN BLACK OPS!


ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.11.10 06:18:00 - [7]
 

Oops, forgot support.

They can't bridge to cyno gens (ccp did a dirty hack and made the bridge a passive mod so you can't).

The agility is nice, but really useless frankly. (this coming from someone with a sin) Only thing i've used it lately is a glorified loot transport: warps faster than a cs with a built in cloak-warp trick and more ehp. lol.

Being able to jump farther is critical for them to be of any use. If they can't jump/portal (portal range tied to jump range) a decent distance, un-nerfed or not they would still be more or less useless in the role ccp would like to see.

Oh, as far as the covops cloak stuff goes: Meh. It would be nice, but balancing it would be somewhat hard. I'd rather see jumping and ship stats addressed first.

Curse VonPilgrim
Amarr
Ministry of War

Posted - 2009.11.10 16:07:00 - [8]
 

Totaly agree on the part bout boosting would be more fun

Vall Kor
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.10 23:16:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: ZigZag Joe
Blackops need the most:

Hp buffed to at least the same as their t1 hulls.
Some t2 racial resists. 40/20 would be excellent.
Improved jump range (4 - 6.5ly base)
Useful t2 bonuses
Jump portal functioning with standard cyno gens (pos mod)
Additional turret on panther.

Currently, the blackops can't even jump/bridge over most border systems, supposedly one of the main uses of BOs. At best, they can bridge about 3 jumps (in-region jumps), which is more or less useless. Never mind any sort of normal travel via jump drive is impossible, again due to horrid range.

Widow is the only ship that has functional t2 bonuses, agility bonuses? speed bonuses? wtf? The redeemer's bonus is at least not completely useless, but the rest.... ugh.

I'd propose something like:
Redeemer:

7.5% to large energy tracking, 10% to large energy optimal per level

Sin

7.5% to drone mwd speed per level, +10km drone control range per level

Panther

7.5% to large projectile tracking, 10% to large projectile falloff per level

Widow

30% bonus to ECM target jammer strength, 10% to cruise missile and torpedo flight time per level


The sin will always be sub-par as a black ops due to using drones: impossible to stay aloof because you can't align with sentries and/or have to wait for heavies to return. Panther could use another turret and/or being changed to be a shield tank ship. Thankfully, the AC fix panthers wont be too badly off


I agree with this. I think they need real bonuses. I would like to see combat recons be allowed to use the bridge also. That would mix the clandestine fleet up a bit.YARRRR!!

Yon Krum
The Knights Templar
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.11.11 04:52:00 - [10]
 

I would agree to boosting the black ops only if there were concurrent defenses implemented to provide both:

a) On-grid cloaking detection/aoe decloaking possibilities.

b) Sovereignty holder anti-afk cloaker possibilities.

Currently the black-ops is primarily a logistical tool for SB/recon gangs, and for that they are very effective. If there were tools to counter cloakers, offensively, not just using bait and hoping they make a mistake, then I'd be all-for increasing their jump/portal range far enough to make some of the very long inter-region leaps such as to the drone region from the north.

--Krum

Dave Meltdown
Viziam
Posted - 2009.11.14 11:45:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Dave Meltdown on 14/11/2009 11:45:25
yes they need some more love. Black Ops have great abiblities that comes with alot of skills that u need to train. The currenty form of black ops just dont make it worth training, buying them for 800m and use them.

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.11.14 12:12:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: ZigZag Joe
Blackops need the most:

Hp buffed to at least the same as their t1 hulls.
Some t2 racial resists. 40/20 would be excellent.
Improved jump range (4 - 6.5ly base)
Useful t2 bonuses
Jump portal functioning with standard cyno gens (pos mod)
Additional turret on panther.


hawt. Supporting this.

Odetta Harpy
Posted - 2009.11.14 13:39:00 - [13]
 

Black ops do need alot of love before they will be used in any great numbers. I personaly think they should be based on more DPS as they are more like hit and run ships, sneaking up on someone then hitting them round the back of the head with a hammer comes to mind. But but at the moment they cant do hit and run because they can only fit a normal cloak instead of a covert ops,they are stuck waiting at gates instead. Also i wouldnt mind them being given a role bonus od 99% reduction in fitting needs of warfare links for a second role of FC ship for a covert fleet.

Denga Vulture
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.14 16:46:00 - [14]
 


Vincent Gaines
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.11.14 20:09:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Vincent Gaines on 14/11/2009 20:12:02
I support any BO boost.

the pre-nerf needs to be removed, the range is meh but ok. It's a battleship, not a cap.

Leave it skill intensive, that will prevent mass proliferation.

They're not going to be solopwnmobiles, but WILL be useful. Any solo BO will remain a juicy target.


300-350mil is a good target cost. Do this then un-nerf it. At least the sin and panther.

Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente
Imperial Tau Syndicate
POD-SQUAD
Posted - 2009.11.14 21:30:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 15/11/2009 20:17:39
i was honestly shocked when i looked at there combat capabilities... I do not fly one, but the fact that they have ess powergrid for fitting, less Hp, makes them made of paper, and less guns, means they cannot even stand up to regular dirt cheap Battleship in combat, and they cost about a bill. Give em proper stats please!
!

Todd Cale
Posted - 2009.11.16 22:41:00 - [17]
 

bump!

Dr T
Posted - 2009.11.16 22:44:00 - [18]
 

i want blackops boost...immideately!!!! i want it...and you ccp should do it...because(see what i want)...so..do that dodododo!!!!! you have a lot reasons to do that...and main one - is my wish!

Promephius
Excrutiating Dirge
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.11.19 22:19:00 - [19]
 

It definitely needs a boost to make the ship more worth while. At the moment its just a expensive battle ship with jump drive attached......

TeaDaze
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.11.21 12:17:00 - [20]
 

I support giving blackops a little love. They could handle a bit more jump range, a bit more EHP, a bit more DPS without becoming overpowered.

I don't think many people will frontline them (preferring to bridge a fleet into battle and remain safe in another system) but if they are a little bit better than their T1 hulls that might happen more often.

I have a BO pilot trained but I've not yet bought the ship...

Mike Azariah
Posted - 2009.11.21 15:20:00 - [21]
 

I think ccp summed it up best and drew the wrong conclusion.

If there are so few Black Ops ships in the game, less than even the Titans then that is NOT the reason to let is sit in the corner alone like some ugly stepchild . . . that is the reason to go back and give it some loving to bring it back into the fold.

If they are so committed to making ships begin to have specialized roles then ask what role the BO's should have and address the question of whether the current design does make someone look to this ship for that role or not.

Yes, they need someone looking into this.

Marcus Henik
Posted - 2009.11.21 21:36:00 - [22]
 

Supported, up the jump range so that it can fill its intended role. cov ops cloak would be nice, and for god's sake please bump their base stats up so that they can be a match for their t1 counterparts. either that or mke a drastic reduction in the overall price of the ship, I think the main thing that is killing black ops is the billion isk price tag for a ship that has a nifty trick for its size. compaired to what else I can get my hands on for that amount of isk (carrier, marauder, some of the cheaper dreads,) and the capabilitys that these ships offer compaired to their simarly priced counterpart its just not worth the investment.

Ryan Powers
Caldari
Di-Tron Heavy Industries

Posted - 2009.11.22 06:26:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Ryan Powers on 22/11/2009 06:26:14
/signed.

I'm Caldari and even I don't want to fly a Widow. :[

Lusulpher
Gallente

Posted - 2009.11.23 05:38:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Lusulpher on 23/11/2009 05:41:09
Originally by: Yon Krum
I would agree to boosting the black ops only if there were concurrent defenses implemented to provide both:

a) On-grid cloaking detection/aoe decloaking possibilities.

b) Sovereignty holder anti-afk cloaker possibilities.

Currently the black-ops is primarily a logistical tool for SB/recon gangs, and for that they are very effective. If there were tools to counter cloakers, offensively, not just using bait and hoping they make a mistake, then I'd be all-for increasing their jump/portal range far enough to make some of the very long inter-region leaps such as to the drone region from the north.

--Krum


They are not more popular than Titans, so no BO defenses are even needed yet, you have to worry about the Titans first...priorities.Rolling Eyes

Anti-cloaking abilities need to go to those nimble[useless] dessies.

Seriously, having a jump portal ship that can't jump to NEXT DOOR is hilariously fail.

And the fuel consumption, Jesus, we are green tech in the future. High mileage, weak dps/ decent tank(to call in help and bait even). The first iteration was low mileage/weak dps/weak tank. HIGH price, so that you can stare at people?

Who thought that up?Neutral

Deadly Hobbitses
Caldari
Furry Footed Felons

Posted - 2009.11.24 00:52:00 - [25]
 

My wish list for Black Ops, given they truely suck as is...

  • Increase Fuel bay to 4km3 - What is the point of being able to fit a jump portal mod if your gang exhausts the fuel the first time you jump. These ships should be able to work in 0.0 without having to be refueled every time the gang needs to move somewhere. As-is, you either need a gang member to bring along a transport ship or you fit cargo expanders, either is a poor choice.


  • Tanking - None of them can do this effectively unless it is all they do, and even then it is sub-par compared to their T1 or even faction equivalents. Tanking a Redeemer is an effort in futility. Tanking Sin & Panther require the use of Crystal implants and deadspace modules to get anywhere near being effective. The Widow, while able to tank, sacrifices all of its EW role in doing so.


  • Fitting - This is another barrier to those who might have been wanting to fly a black ops. Using the Redeemer as an example, you need to waste your rig slots on reducing the CPU usage of your guns if you wish to fit T2 weapons and anything resembling a tank at the same time. Even then you must use faction mods if you want to have any form of tackle.


  • Covert Cynosural Field Generation - DO NOT reduce the skill requirements for using these mods. Not everything in this game should be available to the random pubbie at a weeks notice. What does need to be changed though is the inability of transport ships and strategic cruisers with the covert subsystem to fit them. If a ship can go through the portal, it should be able to light a cyno for it as well. Should this be changed, some of the transport ships would need to be given an additional high slot so they can still fit their cloaks while filling this role.


MonwrathDisortium
Nymphetamine Junkies
Posted - 2009.11.24 04:28:00 - [26]
 

If nothing else BO need a longer jump range, at least on par with a dread.

I would like to see it warp cloaked as well but the jump range is the main complaint I have about my sin.

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.28 11:31:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: MonwrathDisortium


I would like to see it warp cloaked as well but the jump range is the main complaint I have about my sin.


Im flying the sin aswell and im still wondering what is its role. It isnt tanking, it isnt dps, it isnt logistic, so wtf is it?

Unfamed II
Caldari
NPC Corporation
Paisti Syndicate
Posted - 2009.11.28 15:04:00 - [28]
 

I love my +5% speed per BO skill level. Rank10 lol. (no, i don't, give something more useful please)
Jump range could use a very small boost. Just a tiny bit more.
Supporting this.

AndzX11
Caldari
Reign of Anarchy
Posted - 2009.11.29 19:38:00 - [29]
 

Known facts about black ops are:

They jump in, blow something up, jump out. Hit and run. I don't see where the tank is actually needed.
DPS wise all of them can get 700-800.

So let's say a black ops fleet of 5 jumps in to gank a Rorqual or a ratting BS from a constellation that's near another and has blocked, defended gates in between... Do you need a tank to kill a rorq or any t1/t2 bs with 5 x 700 DPS black ops ships? Most will go down even with just 2 Black Ops BS shooting them very quickly.

For any operations where resistance is expected you will simply have to be more tactical about it. The more numbers game doesn't work with B-Ops. Is that bad or good? I think it's great.

The jump range could be 2.5 or 3 light years - but that's just a maybe.

The only real change I'd suggest is remove the Sin's drone damage bonus and it's drone bay. Just because Dominix was drone dependent doesn't mean that Sin has to be.

Now we have these bonuses on Sin:
4 Turrets

5% velocity/125% cloaked velocity modifier
5% to large hybrid turret damage & 10% per level to drone damage/hp

Afterwards:
5 turrets

5% velocity/125% cloaked velocity modifier
5% to hybrid turret damage & 5% to rate of fire

125m3 drone bay with 75 or 100Mbit/s(like T2 mega).

All in all if Sin would receive such a change it would be without the drone damage disability that slows donw hit and run operations and be like the other B-Ops ships.

ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.11.30 10:31:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: AndzX11
Known facts about black ops are:

They jump in, blow something up, jump out. Hit and run. I don't see where the tank is actually needed.
DPS wise all of them can get 700-800.

So let's say a black ops fleet of 5 jumps in to gank a Rorqual or a ratting BS from a constellation that's near another and has blocked, defended gates in between... Do you need a tank to kill a rorq or any t1/t2 bs with 5 x 700 DPS black ops ships? Most will go down even with just 2 Black Ops BS shooting them very quickly.

For any operations where resistance is expected you will simply have to be more tactical about it. The more numbers game doesn't work with B-Ops. Is that bad or good? I think it's great.

The jump range could be 2.5 or 3 light years - but that's just a maybe.

The only real change I'd suggest is remove the Sin's drone damage bonus and it's drone bay. Just because Dominix was drone dependent doesn't mean that Sin has to be.

Now we have these bonuses on Sin:
4 Turrets

5% velocity/125% cloaked velocity modifier
5% to large hybrid turret damage & 10% per level to drone damage/hp

Afterwards:
5 turrets

5% velocity/125% cloaked velocity modifier
5% to hybrid turret damage & 5% to rate of fire

125m3 drone bay with 75 or 100Mbit/s(like T2 mega).

All in all if Sin would receive such a change it would be without the drone damage disability that slows donw hit and run operations and be like the other B-Ops ships.


Yes, black ops don't really need to tank but they should atleast have some t2 resists + the same hp as their t1 counterparts.

The main thing that kills them is ****ty bonuses, and horrible jump range. Sin is additionally disadvantaged due to drones and even as a gunship it would be rather subpar with rails being rather low dps but blasters can't reach 20km either. Rest of them can easily get about 25km range with their short range weapons.

Also, panther needs another turret and being changed to a shield tank (lows -> mids)


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