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Xahara
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.05.01 00:44:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
This is a terrible and ill thought out idea that will either do nothing to help blasters or ruin the concept of racial balance in EVE

For more info, see below.


I too love constructive criticism :)


@Bellum, while I love your support, I do believe that such a boost would probably be game breaking, although I'm pretty sure you're kidding ^^. But still, a boost is needed, nonetheless.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2010.05.01 02:39:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Xahara
I too love constructive criticism :)
There isn't an argument to be constuctive about. Its just "waaaaa". But I was not joking that you should read the link

Xahara
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.05.01 12:12:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Xahara
I too love constructive criticism :)
There isn't an argument to be constuctive about. Its just "waaaaa". But I was not joking that you should read the link


Whatever, mate. If you say that the changes proposed are going to break racial balance or break blasters, you're wrong. Blasters and railguns are already broken. Let me give you a good example:

There's an op scheduled and you're going POS bashing. Your FC asks for Battleships that can hit at 50km, which is pretty much short range, really. Now, you're a gallente pilot and you think: "Alright, I'll be fine, I'll just use Railguns for this."
So, you arrive at the battlefield and realize all those armageddons, apocs, abaddons, typhoons, tempests and maelstroms are all using short range weapons, probably coupled with t2 long range ammo. And you're sitting there thinking: "Great. My contribution to this fleet is next to nothing, since im using rails with short range ammo, so I can only really hit at 27+24 and im already playing in deep falloff, so my accuracy is cut down by 50%. I love being Gallente".

Granted, this example is a perfect illustration of how there is indeed racial flavour and how some guns are for each situation. Now, if what CCP wants is that blasters are better for small gang warfare, well great, but then, give more speed to gallente ships so they can reach targets faster (just an example of a proposed change). And if CCP does think that blasters are suited for less blobbage, then boost railguns.

Again ladies and gentlemen, I'm all open for constructive arguments on these thoughts.

Crazy KSK
Posted - 2010.05.01 12:48:00 - [154]
 

Edited by: Crazy KSK on 01/05/2010 12:50:14
Edited by: Crazy KSK on 01/05/2010 12:49:57
first of all i support this there is some imbalance but not only in blasters
I think there should be one whole expansion on balancing all the races all the weapons and all kinds of tankingExclamation
i know this may sound like a bit much but its really necessary!

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2010.05.01 16:30:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Xahara


There's an op scheduled and you're going POS bashing.


Apoc: Mega Pulse II Scorch : 584 DPS @ 50km

Mega: 425 Rail II NON FACTION Antimatter: 468 DPS @ 50km.

Oh noes!!!!

Now it isn't as good as a Geddon since that can field bouncers just as well as the Mega can. But the Geddon isn't as close to cap stable as either...

The reason that people like Amarr ships for POS bashing is not that they do a lot of DPS(after all, minnie POS are pretty popular) its because they never have to reload and so once you get a cap stable pos basher you can go afk while you kill the thing.

Quote:
Now, if what CCP wants is that blasters are better for small gang warfare, well great, but then, give more speed to gallente ships so they can reach targets faster (just an example of a proposed change).


You clearly didn't read the link. Here is one that isn't in my sig so you don't miss it.
Quote:
. And if CCP does think that blasters are suited for less blobbage, then boost railguns.
There is nothing wrong with railguns. Its already been shown in the railgun thread that the Rokh is the best fleet sniper in the game.

Saltzz
Posted - 2010.05.01 16:31:00 - [156]
 

+1

Xahara
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.05.01 17:03:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Xahara


There's an op scheduled and you're going POS bashing.


Apoc: Mega Pulse II Scorch : 584 DPS @ 50km

Mega: 425 Rail II NON FACTION Antimatter: 468 DPS @ 50km.


468 DPS at 50 km? Do you mean at 36+30km? Unless you want to waste slots with some TEs just to be on par with the other BSs... Besides, try fitting a 425mm Megathron designed to shoot at 50 km that can also fit RRs. It doesn't work. You have to use 350mm, which are even worse.

Originally by: Goumindong

Oh noes!!!!

Now it isn't as good as a Geddon since that can field bouncers just as well as the Mega can. But the Geddon isn't as close to cap stable as either...

The reason that people like Amarr ships for POS bashing is not that they do a lot of DPS(after all, minnie POS are pretty popular) its because they never have to reload and so once you get a cap stable pos basher you can go afk while you kill the thing.


Another reason for choosing lasers over hybrid guns, am I right?

Quote:


You clearly didn't read the link. Here is one that isn't in my sig so you don't miss it.


I will read it when I have time, thanks.

Quote:

Quote:
. And if CCP does think that blasters are suited for less blobbage, then boost railguns.
There is nothing wrong with railguns. Its already been shown in the railgun thread that the Rokh is the best fleet sniper in the game.


I strongly disagree with this. The Rokh is not the best fleet sniper. It's the best fleet 'tickler'. It doesn't shoot bullets, it shoots BB pellets.


In any case, thank you for being more constructive this time.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2010.05.01 17:31:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Xahara
468 DPS at 50 km? Do you mean at 36+30km? Unless you want to waste slots with some TEs just to be on par with the other BSs... Besides, try fitting a 425mm Megathron designed to shoot at 50 km that can also fit RRs. It doesn't work. You have to use 350mm, which are even worse.
Oh, well then that cuts down significantly the DPS of the Apoc(was an 8 gun version used) if you're demanding RR fits. I mean, in that case, run a Dominix. Its a great RR ship.
Quote:
I strongly disagree with this. The Rokh is not the best fleet sniper. It's the best fleet 'tickler'. It doesn't shoot bullets, it shoots BB pellets.
This is because you do not know what makes fleet snipers good.

Xahara
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.05.01 18:26:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Xahara
468 DPS at 50 km? Do you mean at 36+30km? Unless you want to waste slots with some TEs just to be on par with the other BSs... Besides, try fitting a 425mm Megathron designed to shoot at 50 km that can also fit RRs. It doesn't work. You have to use 350mm, which are even worse.
Oh, well then that cuts down significantly the DPS of the Apoc(was an 8 gun version used) if you're demanding RR fits. I mean, in that case, run a Dominix. Its a great RR ship.
Quote:
I strongly disagree with this. The Rokh is not the best fleet sniper. It's the best fleet 'tickler'. It doesn't shoot bullets, it shoots BB pellets.
This is because you do not know what makes fleet snipers good.


Most snipers engage at a range of about 170-180km. There's no need for a ship that hits 220+ and does minimal damage when you can get one that hits at 180km and has 2x the damage.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.01 20:04:00 - [160]
 

Xahara just ignore Guomi ,he tries to attack every topic which tries to bring hybrids back to usefull lvl.
Btw Guomi's good fleet sniper cant run its guns more than 3.5mins from full cap ,that should show how good he is at balacing.

In short ignore him.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2010.05.01 21:48:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Xahara

Most snipers engage at a range of about 170-180km. There's no need for a ship that hits 220+ and does minimal damage when you can get one that hits at 180km and has 2x the damage.


Rokh does 320 DPS @ 190km. So you're saying you have a 640 DPS sniper @ that range?

Somehow i doubt it.

Oh, and DPS is not everything. Seriously, go to the other thread, we've been over this many times.

unloadedx16
Caldari Provisions

Posted - 2010.05.02 05:11:00 - [162]
 


Major PewPew
Garoun Investment Bank

Posted - 2010.05.02 11:55:00 - [163]
 

tired of being unable to hit targets for the first half of fights...they need range, give them that.

Gwydion Telcontar
Gallente
Telcontar Enterprises
Posted - 2010.05.02 16:25:00 - [164]
 


NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.05.02 17:07:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 02/05/2010 17:21:14
Like Goum said, the DPS is not everything in fleets. Those who thinks DPS is everything is basicly a noob when it's about PVP and fleet fights.

Peoples today looks at EFT and looks at how much DPS each ships does. And then goes omg, the Rokh / Tempest sucks donkey balls because the DPS on them sucks compared to other ships.

But i'm sorry to tell you this, but EHP and speed and how agile your ship is is very important in fleet fights to.

Why do you think i choose a Tempest over a Maelstrom in those big fleet fights we have?. It's because it's way faster and quite alot more agile than the Maelstrom. Yes my Tempest is shield tanked. So it's not getting slow because of armor plates and that.

The Maelstrom with the setup we use here only have 8-9k more EHP and 500-600 more Alpha than the Tempest. But those extra 8-9k EHP and 500-600 more alpha is not worth it over how much faster and how much more agile the Tempest is over the Maelstrom.

Once you get bubbled, then you need to get out of those bubbles rather quickly if you want to survive.

The Tempest also do more DPS than the Maelstrom inside 84 km. Because the Tempest with 6 guns with the skills at level 5 included is the same as 7.5 guns, while the Maelstrom have 8 guns. But the reason the Tempest do more DPS inside 84 km is because it can fit 2x HML's to.

So i'll say NOT SUPPORTED.

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.05.02 17:30:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: NightmareX
Edited by: NightmareX on 02/05/2010 17:21:14
Like Goum said, the DPS is not everything in fleets. Those who thinks DPS is everything is basicly a noob when it's about PVP and fleet fights.

Peoples today looks at EFT and looks at how much DPS each ships does. And then goes omg, the Rokh / Tempest sucks donkey balls because the DPS on them sucks compared to other ships.

But i'm sorry to tell you this, but EHP and speed and how agile your ship is is very important in fleet fights to.

Why do you think i choose a Tempest over a Maelstrom in those big fleet fights we have?. It's because it's way faster and quite alot more agile than the Maelstrom. Yes my Tempest is shield tanked. So it's not getting slow because of armor plates and that.

The Maelstrom with the setup we use here only have 8-9k more EHP and 500-600 more Alpha than the Tempest. But those extra 8-9k EHP and 500-600 more alpha is not worth it over how much faster and how much more agile the Tempest is over the Maelstrom.

Once you get bubbled, then you need to get out of those bubbles rather quickly if you want to survive.

The Tempest also do more DPS than the Maelstrom inside 84 km. Because the Tempest with 6 guns with the skills at level 5 included is the same as 7.5 guns, while the Maelstrom have 8 guns. But the reason the Tempest do more DPS inside 84 km is because it can fit 2x HML's to.

So i'll say NOT SUPPORTED.


Clearly Guomingdong (or wahtever) lives in a fantasy world where you can maneouver and react realistically in fleet fights.

Practically speaking, what happens in a fleet fight is you bring the most DPS you can because if you're primaried, you're dead in 30 seconds and that's assuming you even load grid before you get podded.

ALL the fleet fights I've ever participated in have had the bubble usually collapse before my client has registered its even there due to lag.

Also LOL for fitting HML in a fleet :p

*additional*
Forum 5 minute posting delay SUCKS.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.05.02 17:49:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: NightmareX on 02/05/2010 17:50:38
Originally by: Ogogov
ALL the fleet fights I've ever participated in have had the bubble usually collapse before my client has registered its even there due to lag.

Also LOL for fitting HML in a fleet :p

To the first thing. Well, i haven't had any problems to load grid even in those big fleet fights we have. Yes it takes a little time to load the grid. But once your in the grid and fighting, then it can be good to have a fast and agile ship if YOU get bubbled.

And to the last thing. What would you fit on a Sniper fitted Tempest instead then when you have exactly 624,75 powergrid left if you take the 2x HML's away from my Tempest. Would you fit a LRAR / LST instead that would be used maybe 2% out of the 100% your in a fight instead of using the HML's that can be used like 50% out of 100% in a fight?, since you can hit smaller targets like dictors and frigs and those kind of ships.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.02 18:27:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar
Supported because NightmareX is a moron.

totally agree

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2010.05.02 18:36:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar
Supported because NightmareX is a moron.

totally agree

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1311336&page=1#11

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2010.05.02 21:19:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 02/05/2010 21:21:43
Originally by: Ogogov
Originally by: NightmareX

Clearly Guomingdong (or wahtever) lives in a fantasy world where you can maneouver and react realistically in fleet fights.
Who are you responding to?

Also, in a fleet fight, one of the participants is likely to be where he wants. Even if you cannot determine which one that will be, you can still design fleets around the practice of being where you want to be better than your enemy.
Quote:
Practically speaking, what happens in a fleet fight is you bring the most DPS you can because if you're primaried, you're dead in 30 seconds and that's assuming you even load grid before you get podded.
If you're in a situation where EHP does not matter then DPS does not matter. And I find it funny that you claim that EHP doesn't matter in situations where you can't shoot back

Any time any ship on your side is getting targeted and shot or attacked with any weapon, EHP matters. Sometimes EHP matters less than other things, sometimes more. Survivability and Effectiveness optimization depend mainly on the predicted call order your opponent will be using. In situations where you know you're going to be called first, you're better off with more survivability, ditto DPS if you're called last. This assumes you opponent is rational and is calling in a manner that generally attempts to take as much effectiveness out of the fight as quickly as possible.

But, within ship types, there is no way to differentiate between any two pilots except meta knowledge (for instance if you know some pilot always goes full gank, or if you know your enemy likes to call alphabetically by name, A first), and because of this, efficient fits within ship types are homogeneous unless there is meta-knowledge involved*. Any pilot in an Apoc has the same chance as anyone else of getting called and so whatever method you're using to determine where on the EHP/DPS spectrum you design will always land in the same place for each ship.

Over an entire fleet of ships this reduces down to maximizing the combination of survivability and effectiveness. This is the only place where outgoing damage is maximized and each ship has the same fit. With both DPS and EHP as important as the other and when this is done for all long range snipers(I.E. 190km snipers) the Rokh is the clear winner (Efficient Apoc is 312 DPS W/ 98k EHP @ 190km, Rokh is 321 DPS w/ 126k EHP @ 190km)

*sometimes it can be efficient for both parties to fit against meta-knowledge and for the people using that calling heuristic to use it. If for instance the losses derived from calling ships inefficiently and hitting super-tanked "A names" is overcome by the ease of target calling this can still be a solution for both parties.

edit: For more information, please see this section of this post.

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.05.03 00:23:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 02/05/2010 21:21:43
Originally by: Ogogov
Originally by: NightmareX

Clearly Guomingdong (or wahtever) lives in a fantasy world where you can maneouver and react realistically in fleet fights.
Who are you responding to?


Your persistence in posting misinformation, deflection and general rubbish that has no bearing on the OP?

Quote:

Also, in a fleet fight, one of the participants is likely to be where he wants. Even if you cannot determine which one that will be, you can still design fleets around the practice of being where you want to be better than your enemy.


Rrrrright because fleets never warp in blobs. Strike one.

Quote:

Quote:
Practically speaking, what happens in a fleet fight is you bring the most DPS you can because if you're primaried, you're dead in 30 seconds and that's assuming you even load grid before you get podded.
If you're in a situation where EHP does not matter then DPS does not matter. And I find it funny that you claim that EHP doesn't matter in situations where you can't shoot back


Strike two. That's so completely idiotic, illogical and nonsensical you can't even really expect anyone to post a rational reponse to it. I'm claiming that DPS does matter - much more so than EHP - because the more incoming DPS you can focus onto a single target will almost automatically kill it before it even has an opportunity to respond.

400 BS shooting at ONE target? And you're claiming EHP matters? Maybe if you're talking EHP's in excess of 500k, which would be a dreadnought, or a carrier but for a BS sized target? quite often bubbled? please. Rolling Eyes

It's a joke to claim that 800 or so extra EHP is going to make a blind bit of difference with even a small number of hostile battleships focusing fire - this is also the reason why active local tanking in general is ineffective in anything other than solo/small gang/pve situations.

Quote:

Any time any ship on your side is getting targeted and shot or attacked with any weapon, EHP matters. Sometimes EHP matters less than other things, sometimes more.


Yes, that extra half second before you pop really helps.

Quote:

Survivability and Effectiveness...words...words..


Ok that's a very wordy way of saying you want to maximize performance of your fits and nothing else. You're not really advocating anything more than common sense. Of course I want to fit as much tank as I can, however since it is no longer ye olde days of yore where the benchmark was fitting enough EHP to tank a Titan DDD.

In a fleet fight with 800 total BS, 400 on each side who are both calling one primary at a time, who do you think will win? even if the non-tanking side only out-dpses by 50 or so units each, the multiplication effect will wind up being equal to bringing an extra 18 BS or so along. It's ridiculous to claim EHP matters a damn when you compare it against incoming DPS from 400-odd hostile ships.

And finally, what does any of this garbage you keep posting about fleet fights actually have to do with BLASTERS?

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2010.05.03 00:39:00 - [172]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 03/05/2010 00:39:14
Originally by: Ogogov
Your persistence in posting misinformation, deflection and general rubbish that has no bearing on the OP?
That is a person?
Quote:

Rrrrright because fleets never warp in blobs. Strike one.
That has no bearing on whether or not one side or another is at its ideal range.
Quote:
Strike two. That's so completely idiotic, illogical and nonsensical you can't even really expect anyone to post a rational reponse to it. I'm claiming that DPS does matter - much more so than EHP - because the more incoming DPS you can focus onto a single target will almost automatically kill it before it even has an opportunity to respond.
Strike Three. At any time that you have enough DPS to kill a target before it has a chance to respond your DPS has as little bearing on the target as its EHP. If you have 400 BS as you say then each BS could be doing 100 DPS with a 4 second refire rate and you would still kill the target in 1 second

400 ships with 400 volley each volleys(100 DPS @ 4 second re-fire) through 160k EHP per volley. So, in your claim, any DPS over 100 does not matter because your mass of ships is going to waste the other side anyway, 160k EHP is way more than any fleet battleship is going to have. So more DPS is totally a waste!

Except no one believes that, its foolish. So why do you believe that having more EHP doesn't matter when having more DPS does? That claim is so fundamentally insane that its almost pointless to discuss. Targets die when the amount of damage they take reaches their EHP. If a targets EHP doesn't matter then no amount of DPS does either because something is happening here that breaks the fundamental rules of the game that say "damage is subtracted from hit points; when a ship hits 0 hit points it explodes"

Your claim literally rests on a presumption that big numbers are big and holy molely look at those big numbers! Its bull.

Quote:

Ok that's a very wordy way of saying you want to maximize performance of your fits and nothing else. You're not really advocating anything more than common sense. Of course I want to fit as much tank as I can, however since it is no longer ye olde days of yore where the benchmark was fitting enough EHP to tank a Titan DDD.

In a fleet fight with 800 total BS, 400 on each side who are both calling one primary at a time, who do you think will win? even if the non-tanking side only out-dpses by 50 or so units each, the multiplication effect will wind up being equal to bringing an extra 18 BS or so along. It's ridiculous to claim EHP matters a damn when you compare it against incoming DPS from 400-odd hostile ships.

And finally, what does any of this garbage you keep posting about fleet fights actually have to do with BLASTERS?


Actually the simulation that Laing ran in the other thread pretty clearly demonstrates that EHP * DPS is the clear winner. In a fleet fight with 400 BS on each side extra EHP matters just as much as extra DPS.

And it has as much to do with blasters as hybrids have anything to do with blasters. The guy whining that hybrids were terrible brought it up and so I am refuting it.

Luna Cii
Posted - 2010.05.03 02:45:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Ogogov

Strike two. That's so completely idiotic, illogical and nonsensical you can't even really expect anyone to post a rational reponse to it. I'm claiming that DPS does matter - much more so than EHP - because the more incoming DPS you can focus onto a single target will almost automatically kill it before it even has an opportunity to respond.

400 BS shooting at ONE target? And you're claiming EHP matters? Maybe if you're talking EHP's in excess of 500k, which would be a dreadnought, or a carrier but for a BS sized target? quite often bubbled? please. Rolling Eyes

It's a joke to claim that 800 or so extra EHP is going to make a blind bit of difference with even a small number of hostile battleships focusing fire - this is also the reason why active local tanking in general is ineffective in anything other than solo/small gang/pve situations.




The goal of a fleet fight is to get the enemy fleets hit points to zero before your fleets hit points reach zero. Your fleet can increase its chances by bringing either more hit points or more damage. An extra 800 EHP amy not help YOU, personally, if you are called primary, but it will help your fleet.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2010.05.03 06:45:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Luna Cii
Originally by: Ogogov

Strike two. That's so completely idiotic, illogical and nonsensical you can't even really expect anyone to post a rational reponse to it. I'm claiming that DPS does matter - much more so than EHP - because the more incoming DPS you can focus onto a single target will almost automatically kill it before it even has an opportunity to respond.

400 BS shooting at ONE target? And you're claiming EHP matters? Maybe if you're talking EHP's in excess of 500k, which would be a dreadnought, or a carrier but for a BS sized target? quite often bubbled? please. Rolling Eyes

It's a joke to claim that 800 or so extra EHP is going to make a blind bit of difference with even a small number of hostile battleships focusing fire - this is also the reason why active local tanking in general is ineffective in anything other than solo/small gang/pve situations.




The goal of a fleet fight is to get the enemy fleets hit points to zero before your fleets hit points reach zero. Your fleet can increase its chances by bringing either more hit points or more damage. An extra 800 EHP amy not help YOU, personally, if you are called primary, but it will help your fleet.


Realy?:O My experience completly disagree with this.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2010.05.03 10:14:00 - [175]
 

Funny how fast a blaster thread turns into a rails + fleet thread. Not that we already have such a thing right here in AH.





Noillia Durmot
Thundercats
B O R G
Posted - 2010.05.03 10:24:00 - [176]
 

I still can't believe CCP hasn't done something about this. It's been an ongoing theme for about 4 years now. The solution is simple. Keep blasters as short range and difficult to use as they always have been but make them worth fitting none the less. High DPS and fast tracking. Job done.

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.05.03 13:43:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Ogogov on 03/05/2010 13:45:33
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 03/05/2010 00:39:14

Your claim literally rests on a presumption that big numbers are big and holy molely look at those big numbers! Its bull.



Not really, when the incoming DPS is so extreme that it will waste ANY local tank that isn't a capital ship in seige/triage mode or a Titan.

Quote:

Actually the simulation that Laing ran in the other thread pretty clearly demonstrates that EHP * DPS is the clear winner. In a fleet fight with 400 BS on each side extra EHP matters just as much as extra DPS.


No, EHP doesn't matter as much as DPS because the incoming DPS will fry the target before it has a reasonable chance to respond - granted mostly due to limitations of lag, but there we have it - that's the practical application. And once again with a fantastic DUH I'm not advocating pure glass cannon fits, of course you want as much EHP as you can get out of your ship, but that's really secondary to fitting for as much dmg as possible to get on top of killmails whilst hoping and praying the opposing FC doesn't call you primary.

Quote:

And it has as much to do with blasters as hybrids have anything to do with blasters. The guy whining that hybrids were terrible brought it up and so I am refuting it.


But hybrids are terrible, almost as terrible as you are at actually addressing salient points and keeping on topic :)


Originally by: The Djego
Funny how fast a blaster thread turns into a rails + fleet thread. Not that we already have such a thing right here in AH.



Absolutely - mostly because some people would rather post something completely unrelated in the hope that people will stop paying attention to the thread rather than actually sticking to the OP.

In that regard, sorry for biting - but the stupid, it burned.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2010.05.03 16:51:00 - [178]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 03/05/2010 16:55:25
Originally by: Ogogov
Absolutely - mostly because some people would rather post something completely unrelated in the hope that people will stop paying attention to the thread rather than actually sticking to the OP.

Ask the OP why he wants to discuss 50km engagement ranges link
Quote:

Not really, when the incoming DPS is so extreme that it will waste ANY local tank that isn't a capital ship in seige/triage mode or a Titan.
If that is the case. If you have so many ships that you waste anything, then the DPS of any ship doesn't matter either. That is the key that you're not seeing. If EHP doesn't matter then neither does DPS. If DPS doesn't matter the only thing that matters is whether or not you are in range to hit your enemy.
Quote:
but that's really secondary to fitting for as much dmg as possible to get on top of killmails
Ahhh, that is what its really about isn't it? Its not about bringing the best ship to win the fight, its about your electronic phallus.

Edit: You see, getting on top of killmails does not win fights. Its gets you on top of killmails. We aren't here to determine which ship you fly when you can't afford a convertible. We are here to determine whether or not they're good ships.

And the problems with the ships are not due to weapon types. For more information, see the link in my sig

Veronique deEstelle
Gallente
3M Industries

Posted - 2010.05.03 17:32:00 - [179]
 

boost blasters^^

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2010.05.03 18:48:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 03/05/2010 16:55:25
If that is the case. If you have so many ships that you waste anything, then the DPS of any ship doesn't matter either. That is the key that you're not seeing.


DPS matters regardless of EHP, because the additive power of many players shooting at a single ship is greater than the capacity of any single local tank, and that's the key that you are not seeing.

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Ahhh, that is what its really about isn't it? Its not about bringing the best ship to win the fight, its about your electronic phallus.

Edit: You see, getting on top of killmails does not win fights. Its gets you on top of killmails. We aren't here to determine which ship you fly when you can't afford a convertible. We are here to determine whether or not they're good ships.


Funny, because I was under the impression that being higher on the killmail means you contributed more, proportionately, to destroying that target, thus delivering more firepower more effectively and killing the enemy quicker, so they are unable to shoot back with their already-having-been-destroyed ships, thus rendering your EHP argument moot.

And no, we're not here to determine whether or not they're good ships. I'm here because I've already determined hybrids are poorly balanced - apparently I'm not alone in that conclusion - and I'm asking for a good discussion on how to fix them. Which you aren't providing.

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And the problems with the ships are not due to weapon types. For more information, see the link in my sig



Why on earth would I want to subject myself to that? Shocked


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