open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked [ISSUE] Blasters 2.0
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 ... : last (26)

Author Topic

Kassa Daito
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.11 06:33:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Zhula Guixgrixks
Yes for a well balanced but significant dmg boost.

No tracking boost for blasters. It would ruin life of smaller ships orbiting bigger one, rendering them useless again.


I tend to agree with you. Blaster boats could be a low range, average-tracking DPS monster and fill a good niche role utilizing tackle and approach to reduce transversal and apply signficanlty more DPS at short range. Minmatar have a wide range variety that they function at (better performance inside tracking of other races or outside range of Gallente)

In short-range weapon engagements:
Minmatar would win the fast-orbiting short range fights
Amarr win the medium range slugfests
Gallente rip things apart if they get up close and control movement

They do need more than the current 10% difference though and the ability to fit a bit more tank or a faster base speed (I'd lean toward the latter). It'd take a lot of playtesting to determine the "magic numbers" but having 20% better base damage than other races and more inertia but significantly more thrust might be an interesting direction to go. They can get within range faster but still require significant tackling to keep minmatar from outmaneuvering them while Amarr still try to kite and kill on approach.

Originally by: Meyr
Also, as much as I hate to swing the nerf bat, Lasers DO need to be brought more in-line with other turret weapon systems. When they have similar tracking, vastly superior range, and 95% of the damage, why fly anything else?


Personally, I think most of the Amarr OP cries are due to the tracking of pulses and reducing that a bit to give us worse short-range DPS against fast targets might be warranted but the mid range DPS with scorch and a low-heavy slot layout are the only selling points of the whole Amarr fleet (no ammo for structure bashing is kinda nice too but not extremely important in the long run). If you take that away then the whole race is useless.

Laser ships do have some disadvantages but I think the biggest difference is that all of ours tend to have the same solution: "bring other ships to the fight too" while the issues of blaster boats (more travel time and shorter range) are only magnified as the number of ships involved in the fight increases. Gallente do make significantly better solo ships than Amarr (The Curse being an exception) but Amarr make better fleet ships.

* Armor tanked T2 Minmatar ships laugh at you and your pathetic attempts to damage them with EM/Therm.
* T1 Amarr ships are mostly one-trick ponies with the same trick. They have good wide-range DPS and good tank but no real utility or variation beyond gank-focused, tank-focused, or "both but hard to fit".
* Amarr ships have very few midslots. Most can't tackle for themselves and still operate a prop mod for any significant time period or larger ships have to drop the useful Sensor Booster.
* Amarr ships are generally quite slow since we can't ever get away with a DCII instead of a plate (mostly relevant on sub-BS ships).
* Amarr ships often have little dronebay space.
* Nothing resembling useful ewar outside the Curse (Gallente can't claim *much* better ewar but it is better).
* Long range weapons are useful too and come with the "race selection" package. Fly more with larger groups and you'll see more Megathrons out on the field, though I think Apocs still usually outnumber them.
* Cap bonus instead of combat bonus on many ships.

Laser *ships* have disadvantages over hybrid ships, please stop taking a turret away from its ship layouts and bonuses unless you're also going to say that nothing in EVE can successfully fit lasers because they suck your Hurricane/Drake cap dry in seconds. Blasters need a buff, but if you take scorch + long range pulses out of the picture then Amarr are going to need a base DPS boost to make up for the massive loss of effective range and then we would be stepping on your toes even more.

Kassa Daito
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2010.01.11 07:22:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Kassa Daito on 11/01/2010 07:28:11
Originally by: Spugg Galdon
> Whilst at the range they are supposed to excell at they suffer from poor tracking due to the tracking formula being too simple. People say that this is a piloting problem however having to reduce your transversal to be able to hit means that you become an easier target too rendering using short range weapons to "get under the guns" of longer range weapons pointless.
> An extension to the tracking problem is attempting get into that "sweet spot" which is EXTREMELY small (less than 500m difference either way)


HYBRIDS in general have no real advantage over other weapons systems. The prime evidence for this is the fact that people tend to be happy to fit unbonused weapons systems to ships over their bonused hybrid weapons systems. [LASER FEROX] [LASER LACHESIS] although it doesn't have a hybrid bonus[Projectile Myrmidon] I'm sure there are more.

I would NEVER personally fit Hybrid weapons to ships that get a bonus to projectile/lasers.

All of the below assumes it is a small engagement (3 or less on each side). Blasters and autos are NOT fleet weapons and Pulses rule medium gang warfare (5-10 on each side) when used in quantity. Long range weapons are more useful for anything larger.

I don't think tracking vs other long range weapons is the problem. You can easily run under the guns of any long range weapon system without running under your own. If you can't pull this off, just keep reminding youself that you don't need to run at full speed at all times.

For short range guns it doesn't matter if you do *your* max DPS unless unless you'll cap out before they die otherwise. If you are doing more DPS at a given range than they are then you are winning the DPS portion of the fight. If you are fighting Amarr, run in close and take the tracking penalty because it will hurt them much more than you. Sadly, Minmatar autos have comparable range and better tracking than you so reduce your transversal as much as possible and try to stay within your range so you can apply more DPS than their autos.

As an Amarr pilot, I seldom orbit unless I'm facing someone with larger than me or with long range weapons. I either keep at range or start running away immediately, otherwise I'll hurt myself more than him/her. I haven't used blasters since pre-RMR days so I can't say they are/aren't balanced but I hate it when people complain that "I can't click on orbit at my optimal and kill stuff" like the other ship isn't supposed to shoot back.


The Lachesis is a very special case in that its EWAR puts it in a very spoecific band of ranges (close enough to disrupt and far enough to be untargetable) where lasers hit perfectly. The Ferox gets a range bonus, no damage bonus, and a tank bonus: a set of bonuses that are generaly associated with a large fleet ship, which it would perform better at if it were an armor tank.

Spugg Galdon
Posted - 2010.01.13 12:21:00 - [123]
 

Bump

crimson fire
Posted - 2010.01.13 21:33:00 - [124]
 

I SO agree with this post.

Hybrids need some love, its not even funny anymore

CCP hear our cry!

Xahara
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.01.18 15:44:00 - [125]
 

Don't let the thread die! :)

James Tritanius
Posted - 2010.01.18 15:57:00 - [126]
 


Amras Arnatuile
Gallente
Element 115.

Posted - 2010.01.18 16:45:00 - [127]
 

Support

RootEmerger
Posted - 2010.01.18 18:42:00 - [128]
 


Arthur Black
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
Posted - 2010.01.20 17:54:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Arthur Black on 22/01/2010 11:35:09
Let me start off by saying that I love my blasters and have generally little experience with lasers, so feel free to ignore whatever I say about them (which isn't much).

I am entirely open for the suggestion that the best blaster boost is a pulse laser nerf, but I think that's equally hard to do "right". The recent projectile changes seem to be a success though.

I'd like to propose some ideas that could work together.

Firstly, there's not much wrong with blaster damage. Yes, it probably needs to be taken up a notch to compensate vs. laser range or AC falloff. I would even be willing to trade a tiny bit of range for that (not much though!). A slight increase to tracking also seems appropriate, to give them the distinct advantage at the ranges they are meant for. However, some of the numbers mentioned here are just way out there (50%?, 300%?, no way).

What I'd really like is a "hybrids 2.0". Given blasters short range, they are currently the only short range weapons that can't do meaningful damage outside of web range, and they are even not welcome in certain fleets where you are required to hit at ~20 by simply switching ammo (large guns). Rails have to come in and fill the gap.

Given projectile's alpha strike and the range of beams (I realize that might be much thanks to the Apocalypse though), how about making rails the medium range of the "long range weapons" with better tracking and DPS than both projectiles and beams? I.e. beams become the long range weapon with the most range, but suffers from tracking, projectiles have alpha but shorter range and rails ends up in the middle with decent tracking and good DPS.

As is, the Rokh for instance reach ridiculous distances with little effort, but do little damage. Shorter-ranged rails with more DPS would probably make it a very nice mid-to-long range sniper. To get the Megathron to do the same, you would have to sacrifice damage mods for range mods to reach the same distance, balancing out the DPS advantage of the Megathron's bonus.

The Apocalypse would end up being the new Rokh (if beam range is boosted overall) - ridiculous range, but little damage . I have no absolute idea on how to fix that. Perhaps swap its range bonus for a damage or tracking bonus?

This type of rails would also mean that a rail Deimos would be a viable option for those that aren't comfortable with the up-close range of blasters.

Finally, how about re-doing short range T2 ammo entirely - Even less range then they have today (Void range perhaps half of that of AM for instance?), far less damage (less than any other ammunition type?), but a massive tracking bonus. That would be across the board, not just for hybrid ammo.

The goal would be for a ship, especially one with a tracking bonus, to be really dangerous to ships one class smaller than itself orbiting it (Zealots orbiting a Megathron at 500 for instance). Even ships without tracking bonus would have a chance (AFs orbiting a Deimos at 500 for instance, if blasters in general are given a slight tracking boost). Granted, this should not be a "I win!" button. AB AFs would still be very difficult to hit, and this does not at all change anything with regards to signature radius.

This idea was presented to me a while back, and it's been taking hold ever since (at least the first part, the "goal" stated is taking it further than its progenitor did I suppose).

And finally, tanking... That's part of the price you pay for face-melt damage and what makes us blaster pilots. I love my Deimos, even with the little tank it has. Most pilots knows its damage potential. That's a good tank in itself. Otherwise, range decides. Either the Deimos runs away or your opponent is in scrambler range. Tank doesn't matter either way Wink


Edit: Fixed a mistake in the T2 ammo suggestion w/regards to damage.

Fak Jaelt
Cabal Armaments
Posted - 2010.02.27 22:41:00 - [130]
 

/supported

The mobility requirements that blaster platforms need in order to be useful are unbalanced with the amount of effective damage that they can put out currently.
Start with a boost to blasters, then we can look at tweaking individual ships.

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2010.02.27 23:20:00 - [131]
 

Actually CSM pointed at the iceland meeting that gallente are inferior comparing to other races .

Theres still hope.

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.03.01 06:29:00 - [132]
 

ffs balance blasters better already Evil or Very Mad

Xahara
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.03.05 22:58:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Actually CSM pointed at the iceland meeting that gallente are inferior comparing to other races .

Theres still hope.


This! Oh, and bump :)

Vizirion
Gallente
The Deliberate Forces
Posted - 2010.03.06 08:15:00 - [134]
 

Really hope they'll do it in new expansion.

Tortugan
Internal Anarchy
WE FORM VOLTRON
Posted - 2010.03.06 08:48:00 - [135]
 

There will never, should never be perfect balance between races. If Gallente got buffed, it'd be complaints about Caldari. If Caldari got buffed, we'd hear whines about Amarr being slow as crap and having terrible tracking.

Yes- your ideas have merit. In fact, blasters/rails are in many ways weaker than other weapons. But not game-breakingly so. IMO quit wasting time on buffing/nerfing weapons. If you want to talk about something that could use rebalancing, how about the completely disproportionate use of falcons over other recons? But that's another thread.

If you want to keep wasting time making sure that no weapon system is the weakest, sure- boosting blasters is the way to go. While we're at it, can we start planning ahead on how to boost missiles?

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2010.03.06 13:14:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Tortugan
There will never, should never be perfect balance between races. If Gallente got buffed, it'd be complaints about Caldari. If Caldari got buffed, we'd hear whines about Amarr being slow as crap and having terrible tracking.

Yes- your ideas have merit. In fact, blasters/rails are in many ways weaker than other weapons. But not game-breakingly so. IMO quit wasting time on buffing/nerfing weapons. If you want to talk about something that could use rebalancing, how about the completely disproportionate use of falcons over other recons? But that's another thread.

If you want to keep wasting time making sure that no weapon system is the weakest, sure- boosting blasters is the way to go. While we're at it, can we start planning ahead on how to boost missiles?


Die troll ( in-game )

Xahara
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.03.07 13:51:00 - [137]
 

Keep the feedback rollin' fellas! In the meanwhile, up!

Xahara
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.03.09 18:46:00 - [138]
 

To the top!

Luciana Arcadia
Posted - 2010.03.09 18:50:00 - [139]
 

*Wants*

Thatkidnamedrocky
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.09 18:52:00 - [140]
 

hybrid guns suck

Emmerik
Gallente
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2010.03.09 18:53:00 - [141]
 

I do agree...

Blasters really need a boost...

Xahara
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.03.10 18:30:00 - [142]
 

Moar supports!

Doctor Aibolit
Posted - 2010.03.24 03:23:00 - [143]
 

Comparing close turrets I see blasters need love:
Lasers - they can deliver good DPS at very flexible range. For example medium Pulses can shoot from 6km to 23km at their OPTIMAL.
Auto cannons - does not eat capacitor, have tiny PG requirements, very good tracking, SWITCHABLE damage type. It is very painful to hit in resist weakness. T2 long range ammo allow to shoot near 20km for medium AC. HIGH SPEED of Minmatar ships allow to dictate tactics.
Blasters - consume CAP, fixed damage type (kinetic and thermal are not resist holes), tiny optimal+faloff (even with NULL it is like Pulse with high damage close AMMO), tracking speed is like AC. For example about medium AC and Blasters: 1nd and 2nd tier AC even faster comparing appropriate blaster analog (180mm VS Electron, 220mm VS Ion). It is strange, is it?
So what have I missed? Oh... Gallente drones. Do you realize it is limited use? Do not play with EFT dps figures. Drones need time to reach target, they have speed (sometimes target is faster then drones), they have HP (it means they can die), not only Gallente ships have drones.

So. Gallente have largest DPS only in EFT. All disadvantages of blasters do not cost this DPS difference.

My proposal:
- Blasters should have more damage and more tracking speed. (Caldari should gain less blaster bonuses because their ships are faster, see bellow)
- Gallente ships should have more basic speed. I will explain why. Gallente ships are armor tanked. So plates eat agility, armor rigs eat speed - how can slow ship to reach optimal? Minmatar ships are fast, Caldari are faster because they do not need armor rigs and plates, Amarr ships have more chances to deliver their DPS due their flexible ammo range + instant change.

Tyremis
The Perfect Storm
Random-Violence
Posted - 2010.03.24 16:56:00 - [144]
 

Supported Gaylente are totally broken atm

fuksamatta 'chu
Posted - 2010.03.25 01:21:00 - [145]
 

not even just deimos, brutix, rannis, etc... blaster boats in general are not worth flying to an extent if you have minmatar(0 cap use) or amarr(sick dps/range). Hell, i'd almost rather fly a caldari missle boat and start training at ground zero

just look at a autocannon myrm as a prime example, there's no way in hell someone would give that up for a blaster myrm.

The real problem is lasers, autocannons, and even the assault missles(to an extent) are also short range.. but all of these have a realistic damage potential when being used around 15km away... blasters and blaster boats fall far short

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2010.03.25 08:53:00 - [146]
 

Funny how I attempted to raise the tracking part of this issue a year ago and the CSM voting it down back then! Evil or Very Mad

Strongly supported!

mikeh24
UNITED STAR SYNDICATE
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2010.03.25 19:54:00 - [147]
 

I use to fly solely gal but now I mainly fly ammar because the range bonus for the ammar compleatly out weigh the damage of blasters in relation to how slow the gal ships are

Xahara
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2010.04.30 20:09:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: Xahara on 30/04/2010 22:11:29
No, I did not forget about my own thread, so it's going back to the top! Boost blasters or boost gallente gunboats in general :)

EDIT P.S: New data added to first post!

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2010.05.01 00:03:00 - [149]
 

This is a terrible and ill thought out idea that will either do nothing to help blasters or ruin the concept of racial balance in EVE

For more info, see below.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2010.05.01 00:16:00 - [150]
 

Ahhh, the good old blaster thread, how I love thee... not really.

I've been telling everyone for years how crap blasters are and how much they need a damage boost, and now that someone else is saying the same thing (lol) everyone suddenly agrees? Rolling Eyes

Anyhoo...

What blasters don't need: range buffs. What they do need: massive damage and tracking increases.

Right now the AC/laser balance is just wonderful. ACs have damage choice and plenty of range, lasers have great range and plenty of DPS and quick change ammo. Scorch range is insane.

What blasters need is a nice 50% DPS increase across the board, a little more optimal for small and mediums and a 100-200% tracking boost.


Pages: first : previous : 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 ... : last (26)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only