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Z'ker
Posted - 2009.10.22 14:13:00 - [1]
 

What do you guys think is a good cruiser / BC sized Minnie ship and fit for L4 missions?

This is just to see what you guys here in S&M think about Minnie mission running with sub BS class vessels

demonfurbie
Minmatar
Drunken Wookies
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.10.22 14:23:00 - [2]
 

i hear a pst cane can do them also a munnin is able but its slow

Lili Lu
Posted - 2009.10.22 14:53:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Lili Lu on 22/10/2009 14:56:45
I am assuming you are a relatively new player in crafting the rest of this response to your post. There is a little over a month before dominion hits. The best advice I can give is that you continue to do level 3s in a cane or cyclone while training for a Typhoon. It will be the best Minmatar tech I/non-faction level 4 option after December 1st because it will have 5 rof bonused launchers and of course all the dronage it presently has. It will be an excellent level 4 ship, and become good enough to be roughly on par with Ravens and Domis.

In order to keep a Minmatar tech I BC alive in an average level 4 you will need very good skills. Such a task is not noob friendly. Fitting for tank and damage potential work against each other too much with all BCs other than Drakes. A tech II Minmatar BC is a different matter and they are quite capable of level 4s. But, even then you will do most of them faster in a BS, because you will better deal the damage necessary to kill npc BSs quickly.

There simply is not presently any race with as easy a path to pve competence as Caldari with Drakes and Ravens. Drakes because of the oversized BS-sized tanks allow earlier entry into level 4s for Caldari. Other races are not so blessed. Even so with Caldari, there are only a few missions or rooms within missions where Drakes perform equal or better than BS options.

Take advantage of this month or so to train cruises, torps, large projectiles, large armor rep, and of course more drone skills. Getting BS 4 will take just a few days at most. You will be much happier having an much easier first experience soloing a level 4 in a ship like the new improved Typhoon, than struggling mightily and quite possibly losing your beloved Cyclone or Hurricane.Smile

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.10.22 14:53:00 - [4]
 

Maelstrom is a good mission ship if you don't want to bother looting/salvaging. For bc sized, a sleipnir maybe, but it consumes a ****ton of ammo and won't do very good against guristas (kin damage).

Saietor Blackgreen
Armored Saints
Posted - 2009.10.22 14:55:00 - [5]
 

I've been flying Minnie ships in missions for 2 years now, and I don't think any of those you ask about can do level 4s well. Hurricane breaks too soon. Maybe you can boost Cyclone tank high enough to survive, but I doubt it. Munnin definitely fails, no question about it, and so does Vagabond I guess.

Command ships surely might work - active tanks on those is insane, you can squeeze out something close to 300 sustainable/1000 max DPS tank from Sleipnir with non-injected T2/Navy setup, and around 400 DPS with 650 artilleries.

But I still think 1200mm Maelstrom/Vargur is better, regardless of them being slow and less effective against small ships.

Von Kapiche
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.22 15:47:00 - [6]
 

I use a fleet stabber for l4s sometimes, but I wouldn't really recommend it over a BS. 425 II/AB+web+cap recharger/MAR2+dcu+2 hard+2 gyro, and I can't remember which rigs ( one proj and something else, ccc perhaps ). 95m sig does wonders, even if you're painted.

Still, use a BS unless you're just doing it occasionally.

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2009.10.22 15:53:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Z'ker
What do you guys think is a good cruiser / BC sized Minnie ship and fit for L4 missions?

This is just to see what you guys here in S&M think about Minnie mission running with sub BS class vessels


Did some in a shield tanked arty Muninn (720+assault launchers in high, AB, med shield booster, one hardener, pds/gyros in lows). This is possible but dangerous, too little of both tank and damage. On the other hand an awesome sidekick mopping up light stuff for say a Golem.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.22 18:31:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
I've been flying Minnie ships in missions for 2 years now, and I don't think any of those you ask about can do level 4s well. Hurricane breaks too soon. Maybe you can boost Cyclone tank high enough to survive, but I doubt it. Munnin definitely fails, no question about it, and so does Vagabond I guess.

Command ships surely might work - active tanks on those is insane, you can squeeze out something close to 300 sustainable/1000 max DPS tank from Sleipnir with non-injected T2/Navy setup, and around 400 DPS with 650 artilleries.

But I still think 1200mm Maelstrom/Vargur is better, regardless of them being slow and less effective against small ships.


This is all pretty sound advice, except I'd like to add that Arties on a Vargur just don't perform nearly as well as ACs. 1200mm Maelstrom works well now though, with an AC Mael being particularly wicked post-Dominion.

Asillia
Posted - 2009.10.22 19:49:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored


This is all pretty sound advice, except I'd like to add that Arties on a Vargur just don't perform nearly as well as ACs. 1200mm Maelstrom works well now though, with an AC Mael being particularly wicked post-Dominion.

Not meaning to hijack the thread but you seem like you know your minnie missioning stuff.
I currently run l4s in a snipestrom with a rep/salvacane following me around lending 5drones and 2x shield transfers to me.
Come dominion I want to stick with projectiles (no missile/armor skills so the phoon is a no no) is the AC vargur going to be king for this? better than the mael/fleet pest etc? from what I can see with the fall off bonus and projectile buffs a gank fitted vargur will be godmode with a logi ship repping and running salvagers as the vargur makes the wreckball.
But I'm a noob and not really sure, just want to make sure my dominion training plans are pointing towards the best bang for my projectile buck.

Norwegian Wood
Posted - 2009.10.22 19:51:00 - [10]
 

I've done just about all level 4 missions in a Vagabond (2x LSE, 1xInvul, AB)

Blockade is really the only one I'd have to warp out on.

But like others have said, its like pounding a nail with your forehead, especially when a Mael is so much better.

If you are dead set on a sub-BS hull, I think a Sleipnir is your best bet, followed by a Loki.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.22 20:16:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 22/10/2009 20:19:38
Originally by: Asillia

Not meaning to hijack the thread but you seem like you know your minnie missioning stuff.
I currently run l4s in a snipestrom with a rep/salvacane following me around lending 5drones and 2x shield transfers to me.
Come dominion I want to stick with projectiles (no missile/armor skills so the phoon is a no no) is the AC vargur going to be king for this? better than the mael/fleet pest etc? from what I can see with the fall off bonus and projectile buffs a gank fitted vargur will be godmode with a logi ship repping and running salvagers as the vargur makes the wreckball.
But I'm a noob and not really sure, just want to make sure my dominion training plans are pointing towards the best bang for my projectile buck.


Haha thanks!

The Fleet Pest isn't going to be much better for missions than it is now, and might end up being worse, because the new one is going to need to be armor tanked instead of the switch-hitter it currently is. (Though a good change in general, it's bad for missions.)

The AC Vargur is going to keep its place as Minmatar mission king, and it's just going to get better in Dominion (with slightly better range). For the record, the Vargur can field a stupidly good tank while still being gank fit. I've never had a problem with the AE bonus room, full aggro in The Assault, or Smash The Supplier.

EDIT: If you'd like to check out some Vargur training wheels, check out the Minnie Dominion thread a bit further down in this forum. I posted a Maelstrom Pseudo-Vargur fit for Dominion in there, and Liang significantly improved it.

The Machariel would end up in second place as its bonuses are similar, but since it can't salvage at the same time like a Vargur can, my money is that the Fleet Phoon will be #2...or at least tied with the Mach.

About wreck balls: I used to swear by them. But to use ACs effectively in missions, you really need to be ABing around (even if you have massive falloff), and that's counterproductive to making wreck balls. I'm moving to 1x Tractor 2x Salvers now. Since you have a helper though, it might still make sense.

Whatever you do, try to cherry pick Angel missions as much as possible though (unless you're in a Phoon).

Hope that answers most of your questions. Very Happy

Asillia
Posted - 2009.10.22 21:31:00 - [12]
 

Definately clears some things up, thanks for the information, and I've just scowered through the minnie thread and will be taking note of some of the mael AC/vargur fits and trying them out when dominion hits.
And yeah I got used to having a helper ship with me because I wanted to get into L4s asap and having a reppercane running with me let me push them before I had the skills to solo them and meant I could salvage as I go and not have to swap ships/revisit bookmarks etc, and now I've become addicted to the effeciency and ease of missions with two ships running, 10 drones pretty much eradicates what I find to be the biggest minnie problem; frigates and nippy cruisers that make it into orbit before I've had a chance to alpha them.
My only other thoughts about the Vargur when I step up, obviously it can field a perfectly viable solo tank, but having a logi ship means I don't need to worry about boosters and some of the fitting issues, so long as I cram on an X-L booster that can tank for 30-40 seconds while I pop triggers before I warp in/destealth the repship I can fit gank everywhere else, the only thing I'm unsure of is the stacking of various tracking mods. Assuming I will always be running 1 or maybe 2 tracking links from the logistics ship do any of the gyros/TE/TCs become miniscule in effect and open up slots for other things?

Von Kapiche
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.22 21:50:00 - [13]
 

I usually use a AC mael+salv phoon combo, as the phoon can hold rep drones as well as combats which lets me pull some stunts... and I still end up dragging ships around to make wreck balls anyway. AC maels use so much ammo I tend to wait for stuff to get a bit closer just to save a bit, but also maels even with AB are slugs. Going to probably switch to Mach post dominion which is going to give my salvage boat a workout... but then I might stick torps on it and turn it into a mini-marauder.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.22 22:06:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 22/10/2009 22:27:12
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 22/10/2009 22:12:30
Originally by: Asillia
what I find to be the biggest minnie problem; frigates and nippy cruisers that make it into orbit before I've had a chance to alpha them.


I think you'll find those not to be a problem anymore with an AC ship. The first things I pop are always the scram/web frigs (they go down as fast as you can lock them if you get em on approach).

Quote:
the only thing I'm unsure of is the stacking of various tracking mods. Assuming I will always be running 1 or maybe 2 tracking links from the logistics ship do any of the gyros/TE/TCs become miniscule in effect and open up slots for other things?


I totally forgot about the tracking link bonus of logistic ships...you could absolutely murder in an AC ship then!

The reason is this: things that affect falloff don't stack, and range scripts after Dominion will affect falloff as well as optimal. I'm assuming you'll have four Tracking Links on your Scimitar? And Logistics IV?

Put one Tracking Script in one of the links, and 3x Range Scripts in the rest. Just using the Maelstrom as an example: post Dominion, Logi 4 and Range Scripts would give you a 27% bonus to falloff per tracking link.

Using Liang's fit from the Minnie Dominion thread, plus 3x range scripts would give you 89.7KM Falloff with EMP and 134KM Falloff with Barrage. Drop the cap booster since you're being remote repped, and you could put a TC on the fit with another range script for even more sickening range.

And using a Vargur, it would only get better from there. Not too bad, hey? Very Happy

EDIT: Yeah, AC boats are still bullet hoses. I wouldn't recommend shooting the expensive stuff with anything but a Marauder.

clixor
Celluloid Gurus
Posted - 2009.10.22 23:51:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 22/10/2009 20:19:38
The Fleet Pest isn't going to be much better for missions than it is now, and might end up being worse, because the new one is going to need to be armor tanked instead of the switch-hitter it currently is. (Though a good change in general, it's bad for missions.)



i am not going to trade my faction inv. field for a armor one. I will keep my fleet pest shield tanked for the time being until i can fly a AC Vargur which is not that soon..

Also the Tempest with AB can 'speed'tank and that will only improve in Dominion.

foobarx
Posted - 2009.10.23 07:16:00 - [16]
 

Quote:
The Fleet Pest isn't going to be much better for missions than it is now, and might end up being worse, because the new one is going to need to be armor tanked instead of the switch-hitter it currently is. (Though a good change in general, it's bad for missions.)


Eh? No. The Fleet Tempest is getting worse for PvP as well. The extra turret in no way comes close to making up for the loss of a mid slot. It'll snipe a tiny bit better, but still not well enough to compete. At everything else it's worse than the old one.

Seamus Rooke
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2009.10.23 07:17:00 - [17]
 

I swear I must be one of the few that use a max damage 1400mm Maelstrom. Really it is a matter of knowing your mission and with that in mind I rarely have to jump out. Tank wise I have a great XL burst tank but rarely get into a position where it is tested. My friend uses a twin small gisti booster tank to great effect. Sure clip size may come into play and for those with lower skills in gunnery the 1200s probably are a better choice - personally I just can't go back from the 1400s. I keep testing AC Tempests because I really want it to work, but the chasing of targets get to me sometimes. Being a child of the 1400 snipes, I have been spoiled by reaching out touching those Angels at any distance

*shrug*

Comes down to personal taste. I still have a 'Phoon in my hanger that I like to fly once in a while for fun. AC/Torp 'Phoons are great for wreckballs

Gajatu D'Gorah
Posted - 2009.10.23 14:49:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Seamus Rooke
I swear I must be one of the few that use a max damage 1400mm Maelstrom.


I'm runnin' an 8x1400 maelstrom for l4s right now. when I can hit, I hit hard. When I can hit. I'm generally ok past 20km, but anything closer in is problematic. I'm workin' on my fit to include a tracking computer w/tracking speed scripts to improve the "when" part. I'm also working on my pathetic drone skills to handle the close in stuff. The arty changes in dominion make me nervous. I like flying my maelstrom and I don't wanna see it become useless for missioning. Just in case, I'm going to be working my missile and drone skills for a 'phoon.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.23 15:06:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: foobarx

Eh? No. The Fleet Tempest is getting worse for PvP as well. The extra turret in no way comes close to making up for the loss of a mid slot. It'll snipe a tiny bit better, but still not well enough to compete. At everything else it's worse than the old one.


Update on the Tempest for anyone who missed it. Wink

It is no longer getting a 7th turret slot. Instead the shield and armor values are getting flopped on the normal and Fleet Tempest (shield used to be higher value), and the Fleet Tempest is losing a mid and gaining a low.

A quick note on missioning:

When you're first getting into L4s, not having to warp out is a good measure of success. But after a while of training and experience you'll find you never have to warp out anymore...and then the only thing you should be caring about is completion time.

The Maelstrom will still be an awesome (for Minmatar) mission boat post-patch, but to get the best completion times, you might have to fly it a bit differently.

goazer
Amarr
CRICE Corp
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.23 16:16:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Z'ker
What do you guys think is a good cruiser / BC sized Minnie ship and fit for L4 missions?

This is just to see what you guys here in S&M think about Minnie mission running with sub BS class vessels
Wait for Dominion, after that Torp Phoon with AB, it will be real killer for missions. Wink

Karok Mohegan
Posted - 2009.10.23 16:42:00 - [21]
 

What makes ACs so much better than Artillery on the Vargur? Even with the Vargur being so much faster than the Maelstrom, 400m/s is still slow as heck when you have to cross 70+ km to be able to shoot the rats. I get that the 30km falloff helps with that.

It seems that with so many lvl 4s putting the rats at a large distance, that 1200s would work well too. Unless you're using EMP and no sensor booster, as soon as you can target something it's within falloff, which means you can start doing decent damage as soon as you can target it.


Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.23 17:48:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 23/10/2009 17:48:52
Originally by: Karok Mohegan
What makes ACs so much better than Artillery on the Vargur? Even with the Vargur being so much faster than the Maelstrom, 400m/s is still slow as heck when you have to cross 70+ km to be able to shoot the rats. I get that the 30km falloff helps with that.

It seems that with so many lvl 4s putting the rats at a large distance, that 1200s would work well too. Unless you're using EMP and no sensor booster, as soon as you can target something it's within falloff, which means you can start doing decent damage as soon as you can target it.


I see your logic, but you don't have to cross 70KM to shoot at targets. They are flying at you at the same time you're flying at them once you pull aggro.

The main issue is that a properly fit AC Vargur does roughly the same damage as an Artillery one at 50KM (ED: Barrage), and much better damage anywhere inside of that. It's easy to get within 50KM of rats in almost any mission. Especially if you a fire a single shot at the 85KM away ones while you clean up anything closer.

Compound that with the fact that ACs are far, far easier to fit, have much better tracking, and effectively have more slots to apply damage (since you don't need fitting mods), and ACs start to become the clear choice on the Vargur.

foobarx
Posted - 2009.10.24 13:41:00 - [23]
 

Quote:
It is no longer getting a 7th turret slot. Instead the shield and armor values are getting flopped on the normal and Fleet Tempest (shield used to be higher value), and the Fleet Tempest is losing a mid and gaining a low.

No shinola? Heh. Liang must have gotten through with all those numbers and stuff. Is this in the dev blogs somewhere?


 

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