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blankseplocked Sac - so much cap - 4 mid slots . . hmm
 
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Trader Jjenna
Posted - 2009.10.21 21:57:00 - [1]
 

Ok,

So I have flown every HAC except the SAC and Deimos. The latter just seems like an easy way to inta-lose 180mil worth of ships and fittings but I have been trying to think of a novel use for the Sac.

I would like to figure out a good and preferably novel (non cookie cutter) approach for the Sac in PvP.

0) I have all fitting skills at Level V, and high missile/tank skills hence sac holds some interest.
1) This is for small gang pvp, 0.0.
2) I know there is another ship that can do X, Y, AND Z better - so please let's avoid that. I get it.
3) I prefer to use HAM. I am going to be pointing something likely so might as well as orbit at 17km or whatever the range is.
4) Only thing I have liked an AB on is a failgrim.

So. Heavy Tackle? Mar? 2xMar? How to take advantage of all that cap, decent damage potential.

One novel idea: The ship has four mids so I was wondering if there was an novel fit using mwd and ab. Idea being once you have something tackled you could probably still orbit at 600 with the AB and have a lower sig. Not sure that speed with a cruiser sig helps against anything < BS that is not tracking disrupted but just a thought.

Here is a rough approach to it:

[Sacrilege, Novel Approach]
Damage Control II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Thermic Hardener II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
10MN Afterburner II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Rage Assault Missile
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M

Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hobgoblin II x3

The d180 II is up there b/c I don't know what else would fit. This setup tanks well and does reasonable DPS. I actually amost always passive tank ships but thought I might try something active. Anyway - ship should be able to mwd to target, switch to AB and tank. Again just not sure there is any real advantage to orbiting at 550 speed v. say 250.

Thoughts?

Any other novel uses for this ship?





Neuronai
Posted - 2009.10.21 22:14:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Neuronai on 21/10/2009 22:32:03
You'll probably want a cap booster, those MARs will draw a lot of cap, and if you get neuted without a cap booster your tank is ****ed.

Perhaps this?

[Sacrilege, New Setup 1]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Assault Missile
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Nanobot Accelerator I


Hobgoblin II x3

Edit: Oh you want novel set ups...I guess the above is probably a cookie cutter fit :S



Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2009.10.21 22:19:00 - [3]
 

rage missiles hurt your cap..

just go with CN, those will work fine.

Also, drop the autocannon, its useless anyway. If your gonna go without a cap booster, fit a nos there instead.

While im not exactly a big fan of ab and mwd ships...

Maybe, you could use the sacri to fill the slot of prober? In most small gangs ive found, this is an issue; nobody likes to be in the covops, because it means they dont really get kills and such.
[Sacrilege, probe]
Co-Processor II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe I
'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Torrent Assault Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Torrent Assault Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Torrent Assault Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Torrent Assault Missile
'Arbalest' Heavy Assault Missile Launcher I, Torrent Assault Missile

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Rig and drone to taste :)

Gram Hellfire
Priory Of The Lemon
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2009.10.21 22:38:00 - [4]
 

I tried a dual rep SAC in IAC days

I took her out on our first date with a small HAC gang, and she MELTED when a mega showed up and I was too close. I only got off about 2-3 rep cycles. From that day on, i vowed to never active tank subcaps in pvp, a rule i have only violated when pirating gates in lowsec.

My personal experience may not match others, but i strongly encourage you not to active tank a HAC.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.21 22:41:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/10/2009 22:45:19
Originally by: Lance Fighter
rage missiles hurt your cap..

just go with CN, those will work fine.

Also, drop the autocannon, its useless anyway. If your gonna go without a cap booster, fit a nos there instead.

While im not exactly a big fan of ab and mwd ships...



Rage not only deals 10 (or was it 15%) over CN missiles but also t2 launcher has 10% ROF advantage over arbalest (maxskilled). Combined your sac deals about 25% less damage than my t2 laucnher + rage sac. Ofc thats against BC sized targets (or LSE'd HACs). Against smaller i have only 10% ROF advantage from t2 launchers.

Also if you go with low speed/tanky approach - use drake. Drake will rip apart slow (1600mm) sacri. Using 1600mm's just loses all HAC advantages imo.

Quote:
My personal experience may not match others, but i strongly encourage you not to active tank a HAC.


I think out of all HACs only sac is good enough to be dual repped. I use hybrid setup:

5x ham t2, whatever
mwd, web, disruptor, injector
2x rep, 2x eanm (or 1x centii ctype anp - CPU issues), bcu
rof rig, damage rig

Use your head when you are piloting. Only ship that can cause issues is neut boat and lazor boats (you MWD around on edge of their tracking). Blasters - too short range, ACs - wrong damage type (thus tankable). Thisa setup can even kill pvp HAM drakes when using speed to tank.

Thing to remember: it is still fragile. Enter drake/mega/pest web range and you WILL melt.

NoNah
Posted - 2009.10.21 22:48:00 - [6]
 

Actively tanking a sac is to me the only reason to fly one at all. If you do it passively you're btter of in a drake or cerb. Possibly if you would be flying with guardians or oneiroses, but doesn't seem to common let alone likely.

All that said, the sac gets a huge problem, it's made for solo, but it can't tank and gank at once. 5 lows is really really crippling like that. A drake can realisticly put out almost twice the dps. It won't have any considerable(active) tank while doing so, but hey, twice the dps and a fraction of the cost. And a much better buffer.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2009.10.21 22:53:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 21/10/2009 22:54:08
Originally by: Gram Hellfire
and she MELTED when a mega showed up and I was too close




your tank wasn't a problem. tbh not many tanks can survive the onslaught of a blasterthron, if the damn thing lands on your doorstep that is.

as for the OP, if you have too much cap to spare, why not replace 1 of the, or even the 2, aux nano pump rigs for nanobot accel. rigs? more repping power than aux nano pumps right there, altho cap usage goes quite up.

Thingymawotzit
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2009.10.21 22:57:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Neuronai
Edited by: Neuronai on 21/10/2009 22:32:03
You'll probably want a cap booster, those MARs will draw a lot of cap, and if you get neuted without a cap booster your tank is ****ed.

Perhaps this?

[Sacrilege, New Setup 1]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Assault Missile
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Nanobot Accelerator I


Hobgoblin II x3

Edit: Oh you want novel set ups...I guess the above is probably a cookie cutter fit :S





This is the same setup I use. Except swap the neut for a nos. Very 'cookie cutter' but works great. For those you who go into blaster range of a mega and then say 'my reps didnt cycle quick enough' your a douchebag.

When using exile boosters your tank will be ~1000DPS which can still tank *most* BS.

If you stick a damntion in gang you get a 1300 tank and become more cap stable.

I think this ship is designed to be used with cap boosters coz it has an insane cargohold (bigger than a few BS)

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2009.10.21 22:57:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Using 1600mm's just loses all HAC advantages imo.


Only true in a limited sense. I killed many non-plated hacs in my plated trimarked crappy sac that serves-no-purpose-and-I-should-simply-get-a-drake and actually it brought a smile to my face when I remembered all the plates and hacs don't mix remarks. Which I did just about every time those ishtars, zealots and similar crap went into hull. They certainly were more agile than I was, but they were also dead. Smile

Agility is often greatly overrated. While it obviously isn't something that can be ignored, in case of close range ships that will get webbed and scrammed when meeting any opponent worth his salt, it's a very much secondary attribute to consider. Focus on your ability to actually KILL people and leave agility and speed to vagabonds and other out of web range ships.

As for rage missiles hurt your cap remark above, it's not like that for a very long time. They hurt your sig radius and it should get to about 200 with rages loaded, which isn't all that bad still meaning you can evade BS guns quite easily, unlike say a drake.

Thingymawotzit
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2009.10.21 23:23:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Thingymawotzit on 21/10/2009 23:23:58
Originally by: Vrabac
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Using 1600mm's just loses all HAC advantages imo.


Only true in a limited sense. I killed many non-plated hacs in my plated trimarked crappy sac that serves-no-purpose-and-I-should-simply-get-a-drake and actually it brought a smile to my face when I remembered all the plates and hacs don't mix remarks. Which I did just about every time those ishtars, zealots and similar crap went into hull. They certainly were more agile than I was, but they were also dead. Smile

Agility is often greatly overrated. While it obviously isn't something that can be ignored, in case of close range ships that will get webbed and scrammed when meeting any opponent worth his salt, it's a very much secondary attribute to consider. Focus on your ability to actually KILL people and leave agility and speed to vagabonds and other out of web range ships.

As for rage missiles hurt your cap remark above, it's not like that for a very long time. They hurt your sig radius and it should get to about 200 with rages loaded, which isn't all that bad still meaning you can evade BS guns quite easily, unlike say a drake.


Well when your flying in a big enough fleet to rarely get primaried it doesnt really matter how **** your tank is. You could just use all dmg mods and a DC.

REP TANK > PLATE when using a Sac.


Terianna Eri
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.10.21 23:39:00 - [11]
 

OP might actually be onto something.

Normally I don't like the sacrilege because if you go into web range you can't really mitigate damage, and it can't really deal awesome dps and awesome tank at the same time.

This looks almost promising though, with a 460 dps tank (more with overloading and boosters) and just over 400 dps with faction missiles, closer to 460 with rage, and it can run the AB once it gets close which might actually help.

If you have a 3% grid implant, you can upgrade the booster to T2 and use navy cap booster 400s, which will get you very stable and you can carry a lot of them. Plus, you can fit three of them in the booster, so you're more neut-resistant, in contrast to just throwing in a cap booster 800 and possibly lose a good chunk of that cap if you get neuted.

Quote:
[Sacrilege, Dualrep, dualprop]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Ballistic Control System II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
10MN Afterburner II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Nanobot Accelerator I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Warrior II x3


First sacrilege fit I've seen in a while that I actually like, because normally I'd just get a drake instead.

Ganandorf
Posted - 2009.10.21 23:55:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/10/2009 22:45:19
Originally by: Lance Fighter
rage missiles hurt your cap..

just go with CN, those will work fine.

Also, drop the autocannon, its useless anyway. If your gonna go without a cap booster, fit a nos there instead.

While im not exactly a big fan of ab and mwd ships...



Rage not only deals 10 (or was it 15%) over CN missiles but also t2 launcher has 10% ROF advantage over arbalest (maxskilled). Combined your sac deals about 25% less damage than my t2 laucnher + rage sac. Ofc thats against BC sized targets (or LSE'd HACs). Against smaller i have only 10% ROF advantage from t2 launchers.
.


woohoo so use CN in t2 launchers? omg novelty

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.22 00:03:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 22/10/2009 00:15:22
Originally by: Ganandorf
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/10/2009 22:45:19
Originally by: Lance Fighter
rage missiles hurt your cap..

just go with CN, those will work fine.

Also, drop the autocannon, its useless anyway. If your gonna go without a cap booster, fit a nos there instead.

While im not exactly a big fan of ab and mwd ships...



Rage not only deals 10 (or was it 15%) over CN missiles but also t2 launcher has 10% ROF advantage over arbalest (maxskilled). Combined your sac deals about 25% less damage than my t2 laucnher + rage sac. Ofc thats against BC sized targets (or LSE'd HACs). Against smaller i have only 10% ROF advantage from t2 launchers.
.


woohoo so use CN in t2 launchers? omg novelty


I think you didnt understand my post at all.
From my post:

arb + CN << t2 + CN << t2 + rage

So what did you want to add?

Rellik B00n
Posted - 2009.10.22 00:08:00 - [14]
 

oh yeh those. I had one of those. Then i realised a certain well-known BC does pretty much the same job at 25% of the cost so i sold it.

Very Happy

abrasive soap
Operational Detachment-Alpha
Posted - 2009.10.22 00:36:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: abrasive soap on 22/10/2009 00:37:24
[Sacrilege, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hobgoblin II x3

for gangs (which it should only be used for)

active tanking sacs is pretty bad, and people wonder why dual rep ishtars don't live very long

Amir Baki
Amarr
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:36:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: abrasive soap

*stuff*
active tanking sacs is pretty bad, and people wonder why dual rep ishtars don't live very long


last time i checked ishtar didnt have a resist bonus and a cap bonus, not to mention the huge cargo for boosters... this ship is designed to be active tanked

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2009.10.22 02:57:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 22/10/2009 00:15:22
Originally by: Ganandorf
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 21/10/2009 22:45:19
Originally by: Lance Fighter
rage missiles hurt your cap..

just go with CN, those will work fine.

Also, drop the autocannon, its useless anyway. If your gonna go without a cap booster, fit a nos there instead.

While im not exactly a big fan of ab and mwd ships...



Rage not only deals 10 (or was it 15%) over CN missiles but also t2 launcher has 10% ROF advantage over arbalest (maxskilled). Combined your sac deals about 25% less damage than my t2 laucnher + rage sac. Ofc thats against BC sized targets (or LSE'd HACs). Against smaller i have only 10% ROF advantage from t2 launchers.
.


woohoo so use CN in t2 launchers? omg novelty


I think you didnt understand my post at all.
From my post:

arb + CN << t2 + CN << t2 + rage

So what did you want to add?

I wanted to add that without the arb launchers, you cant fit an expanded probe on it. the POINT is that he is in a GANG. Not solo - he dosnt need astounding dps, he just needs to be doing dps, in a hac, and with a probe.

abrasive soap
Operational Detachment-Alpha
Posted - 2009.10.23 00:14:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: abrasive soap on 23/10/2009 00:14:24
Originally by: Amir Baki
Originally by: abrasive soap

*stuff*
active tanking sacs is pretty bad, and people wonder why dual rep ishtars don't live very long


last time i checked ishtar didnt have a resist bonus and a cap bonus, not to mention the huge cargo for boosters... this ship is designed to be active tanked


last i checked the ishtar didn't have a need for damage mods and has plenty of mids for a cap booster as well as no need to carry ammo of any sorts

active tanking hacs is stupid

oh the reason is because they have no hitpoint buffer

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.10.23 00:47:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: abrasive soap

active tanking hacs is stupid

oh the reason is because they have no hitpoint buffer


Nonsense, I like them very much. They provide T2 salvage. More people should fly them.


Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.23 01:17:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: abrasive soap

last i checked the ishtar didn't have a need for damage mods and has plenty of mids for a cap booster as well as no need to carry ammo of any sorts



Ishtar DPS doesnt belong to "omg awesome" cattegory. Actually its pretty mediciore for a hac. No need (or rather - no ability to boost damage) is not a bonus. Its a penalty. And for comparison: ishtar with ogres runs at 475dps. Sacri with 2 damage mods (one i posted above) runs at 497dps (CN ammo).

Second - ishtar isnt awesome armor tanker. 5 slots = 2 slots for rep (same as sac). That leaves 3 slots for other mods. Ishtar needs EANM+DC+ explo hardener (or 2x eanm+explo, doesnt really matter) wheras Sac can put 2x EANM (or eanm+thermal if ya want to fix the hole) which leaves free slot for BCU. Both ships end up with same tank, sacri fixes its damage department (and for comparison - with 1x BCU it runs 427dps).

This still leaves the sac with cap advantage. Sure booster works. For how long? Running mwd + 2x reps will drain your cap quite fast (way faster than your injector can supply - actually almost 2x faster). Sac can run MWD as a freesbie and whole injector goes towards reps (thats when neither of ships are neuted).

So 2:0 for "armor tanking" department of sac.

Then we can go into rigs. Both ships can put 2x aux pumps (or resistor rigs) but its kills their speed. And sac has base speed advantage over ishtar (1589 to 1544m/s) while being just tad less agile (7/3 to 7.1 with mwd). Rig it up - you lose over 150m/s. 1400m/s is not too awesome speed. Thats also the reason why IMO all tanked hacs should NEVER use armor rigs. IF overheated BC catches you - you are dead.

Ofc ishtar has 1 mid advantage but if it armor tanks you meet mister "CPU issues". So it isnt as flexible as it looks like.

Now back to buffer tanks.

Plating sacri? 1600mm + 2x rigs? Welcome to your 1200m/s velocity. Thats well into BC range. Guess what: BC not only has better buffer but also has better dps (and costs less). In the end plating HAC = you end up with inferior battlecruiser with high price. Awesome way to totallykill advantage of your ship (that is velocity).

Quote:

active tanking hacs is stupid
oh the reason is because they have no hitpoint buffer


If you dont actually try to tank ALL dps other ship can bring they work. But if you really think you can enter web range of BC or BS and sit there happily, you will die like total newb. Advantage of dualrep sac is ability to both orbit at 15+km and pepper target with misiles (not doable vs amarr BC due to good tracking and very high dps on scorch, doable if you use javelins and domination disruptor). Excluding this one dualrep sac can take on all other battlecruisers (drakes, canes, myrms) without bigger risk.

And like it was said above: dualrep sac is not gang ship. Its solo/very small gang (1-3 people) boat. If you want to play gang fit either go with LSEs (way better than 1600mm) or just chose battlecruiser.

@ Lance Fighter:
your sac setup is totally missed idea. If you fly with gang you should go for damage not heavy tank (unless you are baiting). 1600mm + 3x bcu will suffice - you get enough buffer to survive till guardians lock you and you actually do something else besides being punchbag. If you want punchbag - just get devoter. Similiar price tag, much better survivalability.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.23 01:29:00 - [21]
 

And yea for comparison: i flown both shieldtanked sac, 1600mm and dualrep. Of them all only dualrep works perfectly. Shield one was good in nano era but nowadays lacks web and web is crucial to removing frigs from your butt (also overheated counter-web saved my life few times). 1600mm one is as slow as BC. Only the 1600mm+3x bcu fit was decent as bait/dps boat but as i dont fly in blobs lately i fly plain dualrep sac.

When it comes to ishtar - i will NEVER armor tank it again. Getting hit by explosive damage (even just one vaga) is not fun. And dualrep+aux pumps is totally missed idea on this ship. Wrong racial resists + low speed of rigged ship results in see-sawing of HP. 1600mm is better but is even slower. In the end ishtar works fine as old nano-style 2x LSE buffer.

abrasive soap
Operational Detachment-Alpha
Posted - 2009.10.23 01:35:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: abrasive soap

last i checked the ishtar didn't have a need for damage mods and has plenty of mids for a cap booster as well as no need to carry ammo of any sorts



Ishtar DPS doesnt belong to "omg awesome" cattegory. Actually its pretty mediciore for a hac. No need (or rather - no ability to boost damage) is not a bonus. Its a penalty. And for comparison: ishtar with ogres runs at 475dps. Sacri with 2 damage mods (one i posted above) runs at 497dps (CN ammo).

Second - ishtar isnt awesome armor tanker. 5 slots = 2 slots for rep (same as sac). That leaves 3 slots for other mods. Ishtar needs EANM+DC+ explo hardener (or 2x eanm+explo, doesnt really matter) wheras Sac can put 2x EANM (or eanm+thermal if ya want to fix the hole) which leaves free slot for BCU. Both ships end up with same tank, sacri fixes its damage department (and for comparison - with 1x BCU it runs 427dps).

This still leaves the sac with cap advantage. Sure booster works. For how long? Running mwd + 2x reps will drain your cap quite fast (way faster than your injector can supply - actually almost 2x faster). Sac can run MWD as a freesbie and whole injector goes towards reps (thats when neither of ships are neuted).

So 2:0 for "armor tanking" department of sac.

Then we can go into rigs. Both ships can put 2x aux pumps (or resistor rigs) but its kills their speed. And sac has base speed advantage over ishtar (1589 to 1544m/s) while being just tad less agile (7/3 to 7.1 with mwd). Rig it up - you lose over 150m/s. 1400m/s is not too awesome speed. Thats also the reason why IMO all tanked hacs should NEVER use armor rigs. IF overheated BC catches you - you are dead.

Ofc ishtar has 1 mid advantage but if it armor tanks you meet mister "CPU issues". So it isnt as flexible as it looks like.

Now back to buffer tanks.

Plating sacri? 1600mm + 2x rigs? Welcome to your 1200m/s velocity. Thats well into BC range. Guess what: BC not only has better buffer but also has better dps (and costs less). In the end plating HAC = you end up with inferior battlecruiser with high price. Awesome way to totallykill advantage of your ship (that is velocity).

Quote:

active tanking hacs is stupid
oh the reason is because they have no hitpoint buffer


If you dont actually try to tank ALL dps other ship can bring they work. But if you really think you can enter web range of BC or BS and sit there happily, you will die like total newb. Advantage of dualrep sac is ability to both orbit at 15+km and pepper target with misiles (not doable vs amarr BC due to good tracking and very high dps on scorch, doable if you use javelins and domination disruptor). Excluding this one dualrep sac can take on all other battlecruisers (drakes, canes, myrms) without bigger risk.

And like it was said above: dualrep sac is not gang ship. Its solo/very small gang (1-3 people) boat. If you want to play gang fit either go with LSEs (way better than 1600mm) or just chose battlecruiser.

@ Lance Fighter:
your sac setup is totally missed idea. If you fly with gang you should go for damage not heavy tank (unless you are baiting). 1600mm + 3x bcu will suffice - you get enough buffer to survive till guardians lock you and you actually do something else besides being punchbag. If you want punchbag - just get devoter. Similiar price tag, much better survivalability.


You could fit guns on an ishtar, just letting you know. Calling the ishtar mediocre is a joke like not running a dcu on an active armor tanked is a joke. You just completely ignored how terrible the sacrilege armor and ishtar armor is, as well as unevenly comparing the two ships by putting a damage control on one and not on the other. Even if you lived in some fantasy world where hams worked well, drones are better for soloing.

You use a hac over a battleship because of its resistances and range, not because of eft numbers. If you have logistics with you the sacrilege will tank much better than a bc

abrasive soap
Operational Detachment-Alpha
Posted - 2009.10.23 01:41:00 - [23]
 

Quote:

Plating sacri? 1600mm + 2x rigs? Welcome to your 1200m/s velocity. Thats well into BC range. Guess what: BC not only has better buffer but also has better dps (and costs less). In the end plating HAC = you end up with inferior battlecruiser with high price. Awesome way to totallykill advantage of your ship (that is velocity).


You say this

Quote:

If you dont actually try to tank ALL dps other ship can bring they work. But if you really think you can enter web range of BC or BS and sit there happily, you will die like total newb. Advantage of dualrep sac is ability to both orbit at 15+km and pepper target with misiles (not doable vs amarr BC due to good tracking and very high dps on scorch, doable if you use javelins and domination disruptor). Excluding this one dualrep sac can take on all other battlecruisers (drakes, canes, myrms) without bigger risk.

And like it was said above: dualrep sac is not gang ship. Its solo/very small gang (1-3 people) boat. If you want to play gang fit either go with LSEs (way better than 1600mm) or just chose battlecruiser.

@ Lance Fighter:
your sac setup is totally missed idea. If you fly with gang you should go for damage not heavy tank (unless you are baiting). 1600mm + 3x bcu will suffice - you get enough buffer to survive till guardians lock you and you actually do something else besides being punchbag. If you want punchbag - just get devoter. Similiar price tag, much better survivalability.


then you say this, which is contradictory. If speed is such an issue to you why would you ever use javelins. Javelins were reasonable when they went 80km but now they are as bad as tech 2 close range sniper ammo. Like javelin hams, there was a time when shield sacrileges worked. This was when you could still make the sacrilege go over 3km/s, but unfortunately it doesn't work like that anymore.

You gain so much survivability from the reduced sig radius and the much higher resistances opposed to battlecruisers that the hac price is worth it when you are using logistics (which you should be).

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.23 01:46:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/10/2009 01:52:36
Quote:

You could fit guns on an ishtar, just letting you know.



In armor tanked version? Wish you luck finding grid. Even in shield tanked version guns barely fit (i think 180mm ACs are largest that can be put on it).

Quote:

Calling the ishtar mediocre is a joke like not running a dcu on an active armor tanked is a joke.



Read up again. I called ishtar DPS mediciore. 475 from maxskilled ogres t2. Cerb gets similiar amount. So does zealot, sac, vaga, muninn (ac). Deimos gets more, eagle less. So its plain mediciore - in "the middle".

I stopped putting DC on some of my setups a while ago. I find 20% from 2nd EANM (especially in conjunction with overheated reps)better than 12% from DC. And when you get structure damage it doesnt really matter if you get 0.4x or full damage - it means you are not tanking and you should bail out soon.

Quote:

You just completely ignored how terrible the sacrilege armor and ishtar armor is, as well as unevenly comparing the two ships by putting a damage control on one and not on the other.



Reading comprehension issues again? I gave examples. You can freely switch DC/EANM if you really want to. Still ends up with same results - sac has one "free" tank slot built in.

Quote:

Even if you lived in some fantasy world where hams worked well, drones are better for soloing.



Laughing CCP fix missiles because they dont work, amrite? And HAM drake is crap because HAMs dont work?

Quote:

You use a hac over a battleship because of its resistances and range, not because of eft numbers. If you have logistics with you the sacrilege will tank much better than a bc


No. YOU use HAC over BS because of range. I use it because of speed and overall mobility. I know that since nano age ended (and just a while before) everyone got boner over sniper hacs. But reality check - close range hacs also existed and still do exist. They are quite rare because flock always goes after what they are told to fit. Yet in small combat sniper hacs arent that awesome. But close-mid range ones rock (aka: pulse zealot, sacri or ishat - coz even if it can use sentries ishtar is ****ty sniper).

Quote:
then you say this, which is contradictory. If speed is such an issue to you why would you ever use javelins. Javelins were reasonable when they went 80km but now they are as bad as tech 2 close range sniper ammo. Like javelin hams, there was a time when shield sacrileges worked. This was when you could still make the sacrilege go over 3km/s, but unfortunately it doesn't work like that anymore.



Have you ever flown sac or harbinger? If yes - then small quiz. Whats the range on focused and heavy pulses? And how can hac kill pulse harbinger? If you answer this riddle you will have answer to above quote. Well actually i did put a hint IN the quote but you obviously missed it. As for nanosac - you can get it to around 2,3km/s if you really wanted to but for me 1,6km/s is enough. And javs do work - for killing slower pulse boats (like harbingers) or putting DPS on domis while keeping from hvy neuts (1 hvy neut is not a big issue due to injector but 3 neuts are). Still its ocassional - i carry javs but used em like once per 15 encounters.

Quote:

You gain so much survivability from the reduced sig radius and the much higher resistances opposed to battlecruisers that the hac price is worth it when you are using logistics (which you should be).


Speed is most that matters for me. And like i said above: i use said setup for solo. Guardian friend =/= solo.

abrasive soap
Operational Detachment-Alpha
Posted - 2009.10.23 02:02:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: abrasive soap on 23/10/2009 02:03:37
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Quote:

You could fit guns on an ishtar, just letting you know.



In armor tanked version? Wish you luck finding grid. Even in shield tanked version guns barely fit (i think 180mm ACs are largest that can be put on it).



Actually, yes, you can, even if they are small guns you will out damage the sacrilege with them. On the shield ishtar I know many people that use medium guns that aren't autocannons or the smallest long range **** (qbl, dual 150).

Quote:
Calling the ishtar mediocre is a joke like not running a dcu on an active armor tanked is a joke.

Read up again. I called ishtar DPS mediciore. 475 from maxskilled ogres t2. Cerb gets similiar amount. So does zealot, sac, vaga, muninn (ac). Deimos gets more, eagle less. So its plain mediciore - in "the middle".

I stopped putting DC on some of my setups a while ago. I find 20% from 2nd EANM (especially in conjunction with overheated reps)better than 12% from DC. And when you get structure damage it doesnt really matter if you get 0.4x or full damage - it means you are not tanking and you should bail out soon.


The dcu let's you get some reps when you hit structure because you aren't always going to positively tank all the **** you encounter, especially without armor rigs. Also, the ishtar can get the most dps out of any hac in game, IF YOU FIT GUNS ON IT. You keep comparing it without fitting any guns, whatsoever, when you can easily fit small guns and do over 500 dps or medium guns and manage much more in shield tanked setups.


Quote:
Quote:
You just completely ignored how terrible the sacrilege armor and ishtar armor is, as well as unevenly comparing the two ships by putting a damage control on one and not on the other.



Reading comprehension issues again? I gave examples. You can freely switch DC/EANM if you really want to. Still ends up with same results - sac has one "free" tank slot built in.



You're asking me about reading comprehension when you go off talking about resistances when I am talking about armor amount?

Quote:
Quote:
Even if you lived in some fantasy world where hams worked well, drones are better for soloing.


Laughing CCP fix missiles because they dont work, amrite? And HAM drake is crap because HAMs dont work?



Yes, actually. HAM's are terrible now because they don't do full damage on their ship class (cruisers). You even struggle to get full damage off of HAM's on battlecruisers much of the time. CCP basically took HAM's, which were very good before the nano nerf, and made them crap while boosting heavy missiles to a ridiculous level.

Quote:
Quote:
You use a hac over a battleship because of its resistances and range, not because of eft numbers. If you have logistics with you the sacrilege will tank much better than a bc


No. YOU use HAC over BS because of range. I use it because of speed and overall mobility. I know that since nano age ended (and just a while before) everyone got boner over sniper hacs. But reality check - close range hacs also existed and still do exist. They are quite rare because flock always goes after what they are told to fit. Yet in small combat sniper hacs arent that awesome. But close-mid range ones rock (aka: pulse zealot, sacri or ishat - coz even if it can use sentries ishtar is ****ty sniper).



>implying that hacs have more range than battleships
I don't use hacs because of range, I use them because of versatility. I enjoy using a beam zealot, not because it can hit to 110km fairly easily, but because it can also use short range crystals and do pulse zealot damage at 30-40km with acceptable tracking. The ishtar isn't good because it is a sniper, it is good because it is versatile and has frigate (light), cruiser (medium), and battleship (heavy and sentry) weaponry.

I'm also pretty sure that you said somewhere that scorch is used because it has good tracking. I loled.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.23 02:14:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/10/2009 02:24:05
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 23/10/2009 02:15:27
Quote:
>implying that hacs have more range than battleships



You really ave problems reading bolded parts dont you?

Then i will requote YOUR part:
Quote:
You use a hac over a battleship because of its resistances and range, not because of eft numbers.


Response was quite easy - no i dont use hacs because of range. Mostly because sacrilege *gasp* doesnt have range bonus. Understood?

Quote:

I'm also pretty sure that you said somewhere that scorch is used because it has good tracking. I loled.


I think you need to take some reading comprehension lessons.

Quote:
ability to both orbit at 15+km and pepper target with misiles (not doable vs amarr BC due to good tracking and very high dps on scorch


Ill even take apart this sentence for you:
- sac can orbit slow targets at 15km and put missiles on them
- sac cannot do the same vs amarr battlecruiser (like harbinger) because:
~ it lands within tracking of heavy pulses (and focused pulses) loaded with scorch
~ above scorch equipped ship will break dualrep tank without bigger issue (the DPS part)

I realy do like discussion but discussion means both sides understand each other. And in this case you just dont understand what i write, you dont try understand this or just blindly flail at keyboard. I really dont care which one it is but if you want to continue try to at least respond to what i DID say not what you THOUGHT i said.

EDIT:
will reply to rest in a moment, have hard time quoting this due to fuxxed up forums

Quote:
The dcu let's you get some reps when you hit structure because you aren't always going to positively tank all the **** you encounter, especially without armor rigs. Also, the ishtar can get the most dps out of any hac in game, IF YOU FIT GUNS ON IT. You keep comparing it without fitting any guns, whatsoever, when you can easily fit small guns and do over 500 dps or medium guns and manage much more in shield tanked setups.


I know how DC works and im quite fine without it, thx. And yes i know that ishtar can get the most DPS of all HACs (used neutron one for NPCing guristas at one point) BUT its EFT setup. Thats it. Its not even close to being feasible in pvp. Thats why most ishtars will end up with 3 lolguns (small guns, or medium ACs) and heavies/sentries.


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You just completely ignored how terrible the sacrilege armor and ishtar armor is, as well as unevenly comparing the two ships by putting a damage control on one and not on the other.



Reading comprehension issues again? I gave examples. You can freely switch DC/EANM if you really want to. Still ends up with same results - sac has one "free" tank slot built in.



You're asking me about reading comprehension when you go off talking about resistances when I am talking about armor amount?


Read again 1st quote (your own). You implied i ignored DC on setups. Thats the part i was responding to (not hard to guess if you read quotes...). And im perfectly fine with 2,5k armor on sac (wouldnt mind having more but i fly with stuff i get from ccp).

Quote:
Yes, actually. HAM's are terrible now because they don't do full damage on their ship class (cruisers). You even struggle to get full damage off of HAM's on battlecruisers much of the time. CCP basically took HAM's, which were very good before the nano nerf, and made them crap while boosting heavy missiles to a ridiculous level.


HAMs deal full damage on cruiser class. Explosion radius is 125m - all (i think) cruisers have more than that. The issue comes not with "size of their ship class" but with explosion velocity. And its true that HAMs will struggle against ABing ships (damage reduction is just hilarious, even when webbed) but against non-speed mod or MWDing cruisers (if you web them - thats what web is for) damage is competetive. As a bonus you can use now combat booster with HAMs. So they work fine.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.23 02:28:00 - [27]
 

I just wanted to say i hate those forums. Character limit per post is just so fkn ******ed and trying to edit/quote the post which is close to character limit makes your cursor fly all around theplace. Yay.


And back to sac vs ishtar comparison. You said the issue was with low damage (sig radius dependant). Yet you cant ignore the fact that ishtar trying to kill unwebbed HAC (comparison with sac trying to kill unwebbed hac) can only opt to use medium drones. 220dps + guns. Comes out more-less on same level. Whats funnier its tankable by dualrep. Ofc there are also sentry drones, which do hurt ;p

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.10.23 02:28:00 - [28]
 

why not nano*** around? shield tanking is how the cool kids do it these days

[Sacrilege, Sac tap]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Warp Disruptor II
10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Hellfire Assault Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x3

NoNah
Posted - 2009.10.23 02:28:00 - [29]
 

I don't suppose we could simply end the discussion by stating that soap flies in much larger gangs where range is far more essential and incoming damage most likely higher or inexistant. You won't be able to tank incoming damage.(Had a brief look at Cry Havocs killboard and lets just say I didn't find to much solo or small gang(as in <5-10) fights in your history).

While Deva flies in smaller gangs? (I honestly couldn't find an up to date killboard for you, but I recall fighting DAB(I still hate you) some year ago and know how FW was for the brief moment I tried it.)

And they gave Obama the peaceprice, huh?

abrasive soap
Operational Detachment-Alpha
Posted - 2009.10.23 02:29:00 - [30]
 

You can try reading in context by understanding that by hac range, I mean the ability to traverse many systems quickly, or you can think that I meant weapon range. You're an awful troll, just stop posting.


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