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Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2009.10.20 17:31:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Daedalus II on 04/11/2009 23:05:47
Original Suggestion


It's really hard to live a self supporting nomadic lifestyle in EVE in my opinion, and that is sad as it's a very cool way of life that is missing from EVE. The game more or less force a group of people to stay in one place because to move in a safe manner you all have to be online at once (a real problem when you start coming up to 100 people). There is also the issue of industry. A nomadic fleet would have to bring a crapload of POSes to be able to produce what they need and that's just not very user friendly.

I suggest creating a new type of ships, called Hive Ships. These are large lumbering beasts, the size of titans (when constructed, will grow larger). They don't have any weaponry, but can take a lot of beating. Cost to construct around as much as a titan.

These ships are the centre of the nomadic fleets, their life line. The fleet will at all times have to protect the hive ship, both due to the immense value of it, and due to pure survival of the fleet. It can be seen as something like a rouge drone colony, only instead of drones there are players protecting it. Or perhaps as a mobile 0.0 empire, always buzzing with activity.

The ship has a few functions not currently existing in eve:
* ability to bring the whole fleet with it when it jumps between systems
* it is possible to dock in
* it is never removed from the game, even when the pilot is offline
* it is upgradable over time

Before you start crying about the server being sad when you try to bring other players inside a player ship I think that can be handled. As soon as you dock in the ship, you load an in-ship environment, just like when you dock in a station. Therefore you aren't technically "in" the ship, you are in the same limbo place as people who are inside stations. When you undock you "transport" yourself to the location of the hive ship.

The hive ship is also upgradable. When it's built it's weak (well as weak as a titan Wink) and can't do much else than jumping around. But as time progresses it's possible to upgrade parts of it and add on functionality. Functionality such as production/research/invention slots, ewar invulnerability, cloaking, longer jump ability, outside repair/refitting docks, corporate hangars, stronger armor, more hitpoints, capital construction arrays and so on.

Eventually the ship will develop to have the production power of hundreds of stations and the armor to withstand thousands of doomsdays.

To survive the fleet would have to jump around in low sec and 0.0, clearing out entire systems of ore and ice like a plague Very Happy
The fleet would have to consume a terrible amount of resources every day to stay alive and power the gigantic hive ship.

Current iteration


The Hive ship is essentially a movable station. It looks like a ship, but handles like a station in a game mechanics and server point of view. It can't be destroyed, but will be taken over by the hostile force instead if taking too much damage.

It's constructed by building parts and anchor them in space. Once all parts are present one can choose to assemble the ship. It will then be usable after next DT (just like when building a station).

The Hive ship can only be moved at DT. To move the ship a special beacon is placed at a wormhole entrance in the same system the ship is in. This beacon will prevent the wormhole from collapsing until next DT (all it's mass might get used up though so it's not a way to extend the usable lifetime of a wormhole). At DT the hive ship and everything in it is moved to the corresponding wormhole system. The wormhole will collapse after the jump.

Hijax Class47
Posted - 2009.10.20 17:35:00 - [2]
 

Clears out belts and brings up ore and ship prices. Good? Maybe.

Raw Yard
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.10.21 01:58:00 - [3]
 

I think this could be a good idea implemented into the game, however i do not think they should be that powerful or cost as much, most nomad corporations are small and probably don't want to waste the time and the resources for a titan sized vessel. They could be a twice the size of a mom but cost half that to build, and have a docking port in it so it actually looks realistic. I still think its sad that Hyperion's are as big as a carrier...

Also it could have its own core to essentially anchor it in a location and it could have a beacon only visible to corp members.

For defense it could have its own version of a deploy-able sentry gun, say 10 max LVL 5 skill.

Bonuses could range from:

10% (per hive ship level) faster manufacturing job while core is active
10% (per hive ship level) faster research job while core is active
500% capacity bonus to ship maintenance hanger bay while core is active
90% faster core deactivation per level(to pick up and go)

Ship Role bonuses:
99% reduction in command link modules
Can have 8 links running while core is active

Core can only be activated at a star, planet, moon, astriod/ice belt

I love the idea!

Kara Sharalien
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2009.10.21 04:06:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Kara Sharalien on 21/10/2009 04:07:47
Edited by: Kara Sharalien on 21/10/2009 04:07:06
Originally by: Daedalus II

Before you start crying about the server being sad when you try to bring other players inside a player ship I think that can be handled. As soon as you dock in the ship, you load an in-ship environment, just like when you dock in a station. Therefore you aren't technically "in" the ship, you are in the same limbo place as people who are inside stations. When you undock you "transport" yourself to the location of the hive ship.



no matter how you try and word the situation, it doesnt frigging work.

no **** you arnt actually "inside" the ship. congrats genius, what did you think was gonna happen, everyones ships sit in a big graphical mess inside the collision boundaries of the hive ship or carrier?

CCP has tried the "dock in another ship" thing. they had highly trained software engineers look at the problem, and those guys were probably smart enough to come up with "its not really inside the ship, it just uses the ship as a dock/undock point". your idea isnt that brilliant. sorry, docking in ships and then having the ships jump doesnt work, the code doesnt deal with it.

having said that, i like the proposal. i had a similar idea about what is essentially a pilotable control tower, with a jump drive. your idea sounds more like a pilotable outpost with a jump drive, and im game for either.

as i understand it, there is no problem with docking/undocking at a ship, the only problem occurs when you move where the dock/undock point is. to that end, if you were dead set on a docking feature, then perhaps have a deployed mode, where the ship cannot, under any circumstances, move. if you get it down to hull in this deployed mode, the pod pilot gets ejected so someone else can capture it, but it cant be destroyed in deploy mode.

(otherwise all those people docked are in a bit of a pickle)

if it un-deploys while people are docked (even if those people are offline) then the people get ejected in their pods, all their stuff goes to the ships cargo bay.

that is far more technically feasible.

i dont know about yours "super powerful, huge amounts of resources" thing. if goons got their hands on one, and red another, there goes lowsec.

but a modest upkeep fee needed for using deploy mode, in exchange for full functionality only when in deploy mode would make it essentially a mobile station, and that could work very well.

Lordofdarkness13
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.21 05:24:00 - [5]
 

bump for worth looking into


Should be like a "portable" POS, it has CPU/Power so if u are goon bashing u slap on a bunch of guns.
or if your a miner in "safe" 0.0 u set it up to have things like cargo bays, refining thingys.

Kalin Fisic
Posted - 2009.10.21 07:59:00 - [6]
 

I don't see how such a ship would work. It entirely too easy to move from system to system, and then systems are so small that even thinking about hiding one from someone who's looking for it would be a logistical nightmare. A huge fear is that it would attempt to replace the Rorqual as a practical mining hauler without killing it cargo capacity. 0.0 is often such a defined and controlled area that finding enough space that nobody has laid claim to and is worth a corp's or alliance's presence would be nearly impossible.

Some of the tactical questions would be how do you hide a ship that doesn't log out, with no weaspons (no matter how big a tank its got), that would be so valuable to anyone who found the investment actually worth, considering how easy it is to find ANYTHING in a system with current scanning technologies. Plus how do you make the thing worth the large amount of time someone spent coding and rendering the thing. Mobile stations don't make much sense in low-sec or 0.0 considering the POSs, stations, outposts, and jump-bridges. What role would the thing play when smaller corps/alliances trying to live in low sec would find it easier to put up a few POSs using the dozens of stations littering the area.

Simply put the current structure and population of the New Eden galaxy just doesn't need a mobile station without it creating such a great imbalance issue with other ships.

Sjors Boomschors
Posted - 2009.10.21 08:07:00 - [7]
 

It is a good idea.

There are all ready ships that support this concept to a small amount.

Capital Industrial Ships > ORE > Orca / Rorqual


Both ships have:

* Capital Corporate Hangar Bay
* Capital Ship Maintenance Bay

The only things that are missing:

* Pos weapon fitting
* Pos shield generator

NOTE:

The pos weapon fits and the shield will be offline when moving the ship (when the ship is unanchored). This makes the ship when moving very venerable so the entire corporation fleet has to protect the ship on its journeys.

Dors Venabily
Posted - 2009.10.21 08:25:00 - [8]
 

As someone mentioned before there is not enough space to support this type of ship.

It would have to be

High sec capable, to actually make use of all those systems with ****load of belts and no station around see amarr/khanid, which is not going to happen. As no cynos in high sec and I agree.

OR

The only other way how it could work is a unique feature that it could jump from normal space to W space and from w space to w space. (maybe specialised cyno module)on recon that is locks on to.

Then it would have a clearly defined role Mobile research/industry outpost for exploration of the new frontier.

This would make a trully nomadic lifestyle in the new frontiers possible and in this case I would give it my vote.

In W space it would make sense in regular space there is trully no frontiers these days.

ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas.
Posted - 2009.10.21 08:32:00 - [9]
 

Interesting idea, but for starters it should not be a player-controllable ship (aka directly flown) and that's ignoring the problems of what happens when this station is destroyed (which ccp has stated before is a major problem).

I like the idea of a giant hulk which essentially floats through space, essentially uncontrollable, it drifts into known systems from time to time, but it's not really feasible in the context of eve.

So, probably not going to happen.

Raw Yard
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.10.22 00:13:00 - [10]
 

bUmp to keep this going

CCP Incognito

Posted - 2009.11.03 19:27:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: CCP Incognito on 03/11/2009 19:28:03
Interesting idea, there is a reason outposts can't be destroyed. Can you figure out how that relates to this?

What you are suggesting is in essence a Mobile outpost. I can think of several technical problems with doing this, it might be possible but it would be a lot of work.

for sure it would play merry hell with sov warfare, you could jump a entire alliance and outpost in the back country and invade from a indestructible fortress.

Markus Reese
Caldari
New Eden Weekly Sentinel
Posted - 2009.11.03 19:43:00 - [12]
 

Well, one way this could work is to have pod slots. One person is pilot. Has ship maintenance bay to dock ship at. How pod docks is they select board ship, as though it was a ship floating in space, but instead select a pod slot.

Such things shouldn't be indestructable though. Instead, if it is made by say interconnecting/expandable modules, each module shows up as a separate entity. You have one command, and the rest interlink, Almost like the flogging the dead horse pos idea. If 7 modules make up the supership, then there would be 7 showing on overview and targettable. The command module would be central, so it's hp would be the total of all modules.

Summation, instead of trying to make a wierd, moving station that would play havoc with logging off, etc, program it as though it was multiple ships, but one person only can give the flight commands. Dynamic playstyle would almost be like if a group of capitals came in, but instead is the one ship. Harder to gank cause more hp. and more firepower a bit too.

el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.11.03 19:49:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: el caido on 03/11/2009 19:50:38
So ... you want a Godship? Good luck with that.

I will settle for a new industrial class that can manufacture and/or refine in space, myself. Or even better, are pilot "homes"/pseudo-POSes that were hinted at months/years ago still in the pipe?

edit: Or a module for indies that acts as a manufacturing and/or reprocessing slot ...

Caza Dor
Crossroads Research
Posted - 2009.11.03 19:52:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Caza Dor on 03/11/2009 20:15:37
Here's an idea then... to solve the problem of players/ships being 'docked' when the ship/station blows up.

What if each alliance can have 1 of these ships active at a time, and let's say they cost more than a station to build, have zero offensive capabilities, but have way more shield, armor and resists than anything else in the game.

Now, why do this you say? Lets say this ship can only be parked at a location where a station goes and once attacked, and enters hull it is locked down and becomes a permanent station; conquerable by all just like a normal station.

So, the "hive ship" has an advantage for the alliance using it to invade a system/region, but if is lost, then it becomes a permanent outpost their enemy didn't have to pay for. Thus, you better be sure of your invasion plans and ability to defend your hive ship, or you're going to lose it and make your enemy stronger.


Eva West
Posted - 2009.11.03 21:19:00 - [15]
 

my first thought is... too big.... but i like the idea. very anne mccaffery :-p

instead of a hive ship... why not a hive? ie a group of ships which when combined have the same functionality as what you suggest?

take a rorq, make a bunch of specialised industrial modules, refinery, construction bay, etc etc and allow a rorq to fit one and only one. make it so once it's fitted you cant swap it. hell the rorq is half way there already. multiply by 10 or 20 and then you have a nomadic industrial base.

this makes me think of the nomad's description...

"Thukkers spend their entire lives forever wandering the infinite in their vast caravans."

not without bloody stations they dont.

or, get a pos control tower and add a jump drive. end result is the same really...

Eva West
Posted - 2009.11.03 21:24:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Eva West on 03/11/2009 21:25:41
although....on second thought...

a small handful of hives, unpiloted, unstoppable, undestroyable, but conquerable, slowly circling the eve universe.

it would be like taking a blender to 0.0 :-p

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2009.11.03 21:38:00 - [17]
 

Too many ideas combined together.

I like the idea of a "mothership" that others can dock at. This has been discussed before, after CCP announced that motherships were becoming supercarriers and that another use for the term "mothership" would have to be found eventually.

Mothership idea:
1. Never leaves space, not even when the pilot logs out.
2. A large number of corp members can dock in it. It can hold maybe 25 unpacked battleships.
3. Can cyno jump.

The other ideas mixed in here are the idea of a ship with assembly lines and other outpost amenities like labs and a reprocessing plant. Another idea here is the idea of a ship with a POS-like shield and defenses. Some have even suggested the ship should be indestructible. I think it's too much.


I suggest CCP implement a "mothership" which has the benefit of serving as a nomadic corporation's mobile home -- with the ability to relocate the entire corporation, even offline members, to a new system by cyno jump. Larger corporations would need one or two of them, and the capitals would have to jump on their own.

Leave the industrial features for POS and for other capitals like the Rorqual. The mothership would almost definitely want to hide within a POS forcefield, especially when the pilot logs out, and you could carry the POS in the mothership's cargo, so it all works together.

To use a caravan metaphor, the mothership is the camel, and the POS is the tent which can either be carried by the camel or set up to shelter it.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2009.11.03 21:56:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: CCP Incognito
Edited by: CCP Incognito on 03/11/2009 19:28:03
Interesting idea, there is a reason outposts can't be destroyed. Can you figure out how that relates to this?

What you are suggesting is in essence a Mobile outpost. I can think of several technical problems with doing this, it might be possible but it would be a lot of work.

for sure it would play merry hell with sov warfare, you could jump a entire alliance and outpost in the back country and invade from a indestructible fortress.


Regarding the destruction my thought was that everyone in it would essentially be podded, and all their assets destroyed. Harsh, but it surely promotes everyone scrambling to protect the hive Smile
A problem here would be how the game handles podding while offline, probably a not insignificant problem.

Regarding jumping an entire alliance into another alliances space, well why not, how fun wouldn't that be! Laughing
But if that is too game breaking, one could for example limit this sort of ships for wormhole space as was mentioned by someone else in this thread.

One problem I've thought of is the fact that moving an entire alliance from one system to the next could be pretty taxing for the poor server nodes. This could be fixed by only allowing the hive to jump during DT, at which time server capacity can be automatically redirected as all hives move around.

But yeah, I understand this would require some major modification of the game code. Well one can dream Smile

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2009.11.03 22:10:00 - [19]
 

Funny how this thread really took off once it got some blue lining :p

I like the suggestions I'm seeing.

The idea with the ship being turned into a station and invulnerable when low on health is a really interesting idea.
I like to see it as the engines get shot up and it therefore being a sitting duck, and eventually being taken over by the other fleet. What would be really cool though is that once they have repaired it up all the way again, it could once again work as a hive ship, but for the new alliance Very Happy
That way these ships never get destroyed, they just change hands. Question is what's going to happen when more an more alliances own ships like this.

I also like Joe Starbreaker's idea. The important thing for me is that it can "haul" offline members and their assets. If the production part can be handled by other ships or even POSes it's still possible to have a mobile empire. Preferably other ships though, as one would have to wait for all jobs to be done before a POS can be repackaged, and that's no fun. When you want to move, you should be able to move without any waiting and repacking Smile

Grarr Bexx
Posted - 2009.11.03 22:45:00 - [20]
 

Have you ever seen Tubgirl? That would be what eve's server room would look like if a player succesfully docked inside another player.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.11.03 23:06:00 - [21]
 

Am I the only one who thinks of the Motherships from the Homeworld franchise?
Now that Dominion is going to free up that particular name it might as well be used for something else.

- Give them 50-100+ times the hangar capacity of Super Carriers, not station size and no cloaking. Size would be considerably larger than Titans as it is supposedly meant to sustain far greater crews (all the docked ships) and have manufacturing capabilities.
There is no way to explain how that kind of mass can be shifted without multiple singularities powering it Smile
- Give them a bridge like Titans to move ships not docked (think end mission hyperspace in Homeworld).
- Cannot jump or bridge to a player sovereign system.
- Should have no where near the same number of S&I slots as a full-blown outpost, but some would/should be in order.
- Ownership dependent on sovereignty; If you have any the ship immediately becomes unguided and can be captured by anyone like an outpost when sov. drops.
- Defensive upgrades only, we really don't need Deathstars in Eve just yet. Could be modelled after the Remote ECM burst and act like a massive buff/debuff generator.
- Hitpoints would have to be immense. At least similar to if not greater than outposts. Perhaps augmented by presence of "pilot" and or some hard to hit external (read: moving) modules/structures so it is not possible to just swarm it with capitals.

Would need a massive amount of work, but could open up the butt-end of 0.0 to exploitation. There are areas of the map that even the most desperate alliance wont touch with a 10-foot pole Smile ..

Markus Reese
Caldari
New Eden Weekly Sentinel
Posted - 2009.11.04 00:00:00 - [22]
 

I saw that part about not being able to bridge to a sov system, but that sort of limitation does make it kinda bland. People will want these as staging points for a large assault. But here is another option.

Cycled jump time, it takes a bit to spool up, so fleet would have to warp in and set up some sort of heavy duty extended or larger cyno generator. This way, it cannot just jump into a defended system, but the jump in site needs to be secured so that there can be time for the hive ship to set it's jump.

Caza Dor
Crossroads Research
Posted - 2009.11.04 00:26:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II

The idea with the ship being turned into a station and invulnerable when low on health is a really interesting idea.
I like to see it as the engines get shot up and it therefore being a sitting duck, and eventually being taken over by the other fleet. What would be really cool though is that once they have repaired it up all the way again, it could once again work as a hive ship, but for the new alliance Very Happy
That way these ships never get destroyed, they just change hands. Question is what's going to happen when more an more alliances own ships like this.



Changing hands while in ship-form might cause a problem, because it would be difficult to control how many a single alliance could get their hands on. I.e. they build one, lost it, build another and capture their original: now they've got 2.

Here's a crazy idea... what if any player built station could be transformed into hive mode (ship mode), 1 at a time per alliance, and then moved; albeit very slowly (i.e. 1 or 2 systems per downtime). *the repercussions and possibilities are immense, and perhaps too great*

CCP Incognito

Posted - 2009.11.04 08:15:00 - [24]
 

something someone said above gave me a interesting idea.

Lets say you build one of these in a system, it floats in space and is like a station in that it gets captured when shot down.

But it doesn't have a traditional jump drive. A player with station manager rolls anchors and onlines a 'transportation beacon at a wormhole, but only if there is a hive ship in that system. This blocks the wormhole preventing it's use for normal transit. Then from the hive management screen in the Hive. You activate the drive and then at down time (there is reasons stations are only built at down time) the hive ship is moved to the destination end of the wormhole.

Next day the people docked in the hive can un-dock in a new system.

what you think?




Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2009.11.04 09:08:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: CCP Incognito
something someone said above gave me a interesting idea.

Lets say you build one of these in a system, it floats in space and is like a station in that it gets captured when shot down.

But it doesn't have a traditional jump drive. A player with station manager rolls anchors and onlines a 'transportation beacon at a wormhole, but only if there is a hive ship in that system. This blocks the wormhole preventing it's use for normal transit. Then from the hive management screen in the Hive. You activate the drive and then at down time (there is reasons stations are only built at down time) the hive ship is moved to the destination end of the wormhole.

Next day the people docked in the hive can un-dock in a new system.

what you think?






I think that sounds like a great compromise Very Happy

It looks like a ship, it allows exploration and hauling of offline pilots and it circumvents problems with destruction. At the same time it is probably not too hard to implement in the game as it from the server side looks like a station. All that has to be changed is to add code for moving this sort of station at DT.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.11.04 09:50:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 04/11/2009 09:53:15
Fantastic idea - effectively, a station that jumps randomly around the eve via wormholes.

It might require an exemption from the ban on clone jumping into w-space, as it would be very inconvenient for people to be 'left behind' with all their assets inside.

The main problem is that if people could dock any class of ships in them, they could bypass the WH mass limits. Maybe it'd be ok if undocking was restricted to appropriate ships for the destination system.

Lumy
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.11.04 10:08:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: CCP Incognito
something someone said above gave me a interesting idea.

Lets say you build one of these in a system, it floats in space and is like a station in that it gets captured when shot down.

But it doesn't have a traditional jump drive. A player with station manager rolls anchors and onlines a 'transportation beacon at a wormhole, but only if there is a hive ship in that system. This blocks the wormhole preventing it's use for normal transit. Then from the hive management screen in the Hive. You activate the drive and then at down time (there is reasons stations are only built at down time) the hive ship is moved to the destination end of the wormhole.

Next day the people docked in the hive can un-dock in a new system.

what you think?





Don't you have company-wide ban on adding new game mechanics that would depend on down time? I think I've read or heard it somewhere. C/D?

Eli Porter
Posted - 2009.11.04 10:12:00 - [28]
 

If nomadic mining is your thing, wouldn't it be easier to just get load up a Rorqual with some Hulks and a small pos, an Orca with a couple extra hulks and anything extra you need, and a bunch of miners in combat ships to escort the Orca and cyno the Rorqual around till you reach your destination? Deploy pos, get your miners in their Hulks and start raking in the minerals.

I don't see how a mobile outpost that costs as much as a titan is needed for such operations.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.11.04 10:22:00 - [29]
 

Their server performance has increased recently to the point that a downtime is possible in as little as 15 minutes. I think they can risk adding these.

Regarding cost - how about making them about half as expensive as normal stations, but easier to capture?

One remaining issue is how people would build them. A nomadic corp might not have the resources to guard an egg for the usual length of time it takes to deploy and fill a standard one, so perhaps this burden should also be reduced? Perhaps they could be built at starbases or in 0.0 stations instead?

CCP Incognito

Posted - 2009.11.04 10:23:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Lumy
Don't you have company-wide ban on adding new game mechanics that would depend on down time? I think I've read or heard it somewhere. C/D?


Yes we do... It would be easy during down time, significant work to make a move happen during up time. Mostly having to do with updating cached data on all the other nodes in the cluster. It would have to be limited to once a day minimum for jumps, but this could be done with a long online time for the transit beacon.

I think the Jump clone could be handled by not allowing jump cloning while in W-space. Ie you can die in W-space and your clone is on the hive ship you return there. But you can't jump clone out there or back to k-space




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