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Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2009.10.19 13:43:00 - [1]
 

I've heard it before, the naysayers that say don't PvP in a Drake, period. That's not what this thread is about. Assuming you will PvP in a Drake, how would you fit it?

I was hoping my forum friends would help me settle an argument, or set me straight. To be clear we're talking about group PvP where there will be others to tackle and whatnot.

The person I was arguing with was saying (a) only fit a Drake for the best tank you can manage and (b) shield buffer tanks don't work.

My thoughts were (a) you'll want some damage output (one or two BCU IIs at least) and (b) shield buffer tanks would work, probably even better than an armor buffer tank because of the boost to shield recharge.

So the turtle fit was something like:

Medium Core Defense Field Purger x 3

Shield Power Relay II x 4

LSE II x 2
Hardeners x 2
Shield Recharger x 2

Heavy Missile Launcher x 7

My suggestions were to replace the purger rigs with extender rigs, consider another LSE II in the medium for more buffer, and add at least one or two BCU IIs in the lows. My arguments were that

(a) PvP engagements are generally shorter than PvE and the buffer would help more in the short term

(b) adding more buffer effectively does help with the recharge, maybe not as much as the purgers and Shield Rechargers, but since you increase the overall shields without increasing the time it takes to recharge them you are effectively increasing the HP/s recharge (and I understand that the shields recharge at different rates at different levels of shield)

and finally (c) that the first fit does very little damage and if you want to be helpful you'll need to increase your damage output (and besides, Drakes aren't primaried as often)

So what do you think? Specifically, does adding buffer to the shield also effectively increase the HP/s? That point she had a real hard time understanding. In your experience, should a Drake be a turtle that doesn't hurt any one (first setup)? Or should you fit some damage mods, too, and give it some teeth?

Renarla
Posted - 2009.10.19 13:51:00 - [2]
 

With all skills V, 72k EHP, 594 DPS, and 171 passive recharge tank.

[Drake, Yarr]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
5W Infectious Power System Malfunction

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Warrior II x5

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.19 14:11:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Dretzle Omega
I've heard it before, the naysayers that say don't PvP in a Drake, period.


Clearly you do not listen well :D

Drakes kick ass. But passive SPR Drake do not.

Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2009.10.19 14:11:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Dretzle Omega on 19/10/2009 14:11:49
Originally by: Renarla
With all skills V, 72k EHP, 594 DPS, and 171 passive recharge tank.

[Drake, Yarr]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
5W Infectious Power System Malfunction

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Warrior II x5



That's a similar fit I suggested, minus the Warp Disruptor, webber, and MWD, since the goal was a group fit and have someone else tank. He wanted to use Heavy Missile Launchers, too, for some reason, otherwise the MWD would be necessary.

But the person objecting was exclaiming that 171 DPS recharge wasn't near enough and buffer tanks don't work for shields.

Quote:
Clearly you do not listen well :D

Drakes kick ass. But passive SPR Drake do not.


My thoughts as well. Very Happy

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2009.10.19 14:18:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Dretzle Omega
...
So what do you think? Specifically, does adding buffer to the shield also effectively increase the HP/s? That point she had a real hard time understanding. In your experience, should a Drake be a turtle that doesn't hurt any one (first setup)? Or should you fit some damage mods, too, and give it some teeth?


passive shield regen won't save you in group PVP. in missions it works because incoming DPS is much lower. turtling (any ship) works for baiting, but you can't use same trick over and over. sooner or later, turtle will simply be ignore (since it doesn't contribute much dps), and will be killed last.

Renarla
Posted - 2009.10.19 14:18:00 - [6]
 

The passive recharge isn't going to permatank anything, it's not meant to. It does, however, give you more "real" EHP since your recharging shields no matter what. I don't understand why anyone would claim shield buffers don't work- if anything they're better than armor due to the recharge. Unless your planning on running in a RR BS gang, in which case you'd obviously want to be armor tanking.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.10.19 14:21:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Dretzle Omega
The person I was arguing with was saying (a) only fit a Drake for the best tank you can manage and (b) shield buffer tanks don't work.

My thoughts were (a) you'll want some damage output (one or two BCU IIs at least) and (b) shield buffer tanks would work, probably even better than an armor buffer tank because of the boost to shield recharge.


Your friend is an idiot. You are not.
If it doesn't have three BCS, it's not a Drake.

Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2009.10.19 14:38:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Renarla
The passive recharge isn't going to permatank anything, it's not meant to. It does, however, give you more "real" EHP since your recharging shields no matter what. I don't understand why anyone would claim shield buffers don't work- if anything they're better than armor due to the recharge. Unless your planning on running in a RR BS gang, in which case you'd obviously want to be armor tanking.


Thanks for confirming that. I really had no idea why that person was claiming they didn't work, which is why I came to you guys to see if I was just totally missing it.

Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Dretzle Omega
The person I was arguing with was saying (a) only fit a Drake for the best tank you can manage and (b) shield buffer tanks don't work.

My thoughts were (a) you'll want some damage output (one or two BCU IIs at least) and (b) shield buffer tanks would work, probably even better than an armor buffer tank because of the boost to shield recharge.


Your friend is an idiot. You are not.
If it doesn't have three BCS, it's not a Drake.


I wasn't arguing with a friend. Very Happy But thanks for the confirmation. Laughing

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2009.10.19 18:47:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Dretzle Omega
That's a similar fit I suggested, minus the Warp Disruptor, webber, and MWD, since the goal was a group fit and have someone else tank. He wanted to use Heavy Missile Launchers, too, for some reason, otherwise the MWD would be necessary.

But the person objecting was exclaiming that 171 DPS recharge wasn't near enough and buffer tanks don't work for shields.



well if someone else is tanking you have the room for bcus and tackle Twisted Evil

and no 171 recharge isn't much of a tank at all, but 1000 dps recharge isn't all that much of a tank either. unless you know you will only be fighting 1 or maybe 2 opponents, even with 2 opponents 2 gank bs will overpower a 1000 dps tank rather quickly. especially when they have neuts and shut off the 2 invluns.

Tau Dades
Caldari
Even End of the Universe
Posted - 2009.10.19 19:26:00 - [10]
 

hams, buffer tank, and mwd for boating back to a gate. fit a 2pt scram, never no when it will come in handy. still have plenty of tank

I <3 new low cost cdfe

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.10.19 19:28:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/10/2009 20:55:37
[Drake, PVP HAM Drake]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I /OFFLINE
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5

Req 3% CPU implant, AWU5

Bring Rage Assaults too just in case you run up against a BS or a BC or something.

-Liang

Eardianm
Solstice Equilibrium
Posted - 2009.10.19 19:30:00 - [12]
 

Guy you were arguing with was spot on. Brick tank or go home

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.19 20:51:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/10/2009 20:51:15
Must be missing something, since that fit requires both 3% PG and CPU implant. I dont see how you can do it without PG implant.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.10.19 20:55:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/10/2009 20:58:58
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 19/10/2009 20:56:42
Originally by: Furb Killer
Must be missing something, since that fit requires both 3% PG and CPU implant. I dont see how you can do it without PG implant.


Yeah the neut wasn't supposed to be there or was supposed to be offline.

-Liang

Ed: Ah, I know what happened. I deleted the wrong fit. :| I normally don't keep my fits in EFT in such a haphazard ordering. Either way, my bad.

Ed2: It also fits if you keep the neut and downgrade to an IFFA, or downgrade to a named LSE and keep the T2 DC. The first is preferable (~1K more EHP), but more expensive.

yani dumyat
Minmatar
Pixie Cats
Posted - 2009.10.20 00:14:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: yani dumyat on 20/10/2009 00:14:40

The ham drake is great for solo but in a gang the HM variant has some great advantages (like not having to sit inside your own bubble just to hit stuff).

[Drake, HM Fleet]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Alumel-Wired I Sensor Augmentation, Scan Resolution
Invulnerability Field II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I
Core Defence Field Extender I


Warrior II x5

Originally by: Dretzle Omega

Specifically, does adding buffer to the shield also effectively increase the HP/s?



Yes it does.

Roos Stormshadow
Posted - 2009.10.21 20:06:00 - [16]
 

BoB would fit their fleet drakes with two field extenders and one purger, right? Thoughts?

Davinel Lulinvega
Posted - 2009.10.21 20:11:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Roos Stormshadow
BoB would fit their fleet drakes with two field extenders and one purger, right? Thoughts?
Bob also fit their fleet apocs with medium remote reppers.

fatherted1989
Red Horizon Inc
Posted - 2009.10.21 20:25:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: fatherted1989 on 21/10/2009 20:25:04
Moi PVP drake

[Drake, BANG]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I
Viscoelastic EM Ward Salubrity I

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

3x CDFE I's

Warrior II x5

It really isn't ideal (especially with that nano lulz) but on the other hand, my fitting skills blow. Some prefer HAMS, some like HML. I like HML because 1)people dont expect you to have that range, 2)it's not such a ***** to fit and 3) i don't like having to run into range to engage - the drake doesn't do 'running' very well

Cheap, v. insurable and durable as a brick.

Roos Stormshadow
Posted - 2009.10.21 20:48:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: fatherted1989
Edited by: fatherted1989 on 21/10/2009 20:25:04
Moi PVP drake

[Drake, BANG]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Damage Control II


Except please fit 3xBCSII or you make panda a sad panda. Confused

rodensteiner
Amarr
OMGROFLSTOMP
Posted - 2009.10.21 21:04:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: rodensteiner on 21/10/2009 21:05:46
Edited by: rodensteiner on 21/10/2009 21:05:04
Proof that Drakes do well in PVP and are quite often used:

http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/edk/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=79371

Don't mind my fit, I was going for cheapest possible. In case you're wondering, cost almost exactly 50 million ISK, which includes insurance, rigs, 5x Warrior II's and 5,000 Missiles.

*edit* in EFT, that full T1 Meta 1 fit still gives 60,000+ EHP IIRC...

Titan Pilot
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2009.10.21 21:08:00 - [21]
 

Drakes are fine at PVP. The problem is Armor tanking in PVP is just crap. Plates slow you down, active tanking is not good enough.

And the Drake in BC PVP is ok in gang. But solo, you might run into a slow BS or BC but anything else that can do 900+ will just laugh and run away.

I have tried Purgers in PVP and they work ok but prefer Extenders because they give a greater initial buffer.

But to really make the Drake shine requires a very decent passive tank 70-80% and very high DPS. That requires good skills.

Cikness
Posted - 2009.10.21 22:54:00 - [22]
 

Would one of these PVP fits make a good "Trap" ratter. Fit blatantly stolen from Yarr, earlier in this post.

This fit gives me over 500 dps with drones. I suspect it would rat just fine. If some unsuspecting HAC comes in for an "easy" kill. (This happened to me several times when I first ratted in null) He finds the error of his ways a bit late.

[Drake, Trap Rat]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Warp Disruptor II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
5W Infectious Power System Malfunction

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Warrior II x5


 

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