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Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion.
Posted - 2009.10.17 02:54:00 - [1]
 

Seriously i mean wtf?!

I didnt intend to leave this thread although ive been thinking about it for a while.
Your buffering one of the most feared races for pvp to make them even better when caldari are so incredibly underpowered at pvp its insane.

Caldari have been known for few things in pvp but they were mainly the following:
-ECM
-Missiles killing nano's
-Drakes having an insane tank
Now lets look at today what are they renowned for now? Being absolutely, unimaginably inept at doing anything other than fleet warfare.

ECM:
when a caldari showed up on the battlefield in a bb, falcon or ecm ship the occupants of that battle on the opposing side were scared And rightly so. They knew that caldari ships were good at making their weapon systems useless. All their superior dps and amazingly overpowered weapons compared to the caldari were made unusable.

So what happens, the other three races moan so much that caldaris ace card gets taken off them. Now a falcon cant even get the jame strength to perma jam a bs in one jammer. Now they loose that bonus point. So they can now only kill nanos with missiles and the drake has a good tank...

Missiles:
After the speed nerf caldari actually had a purpose on the battlefield other than ecm. We could kill fast moving ships better than any other race due to missiles. The eve universe found this concept of caldari pvpers being better than them at something so obtuse people whined and whined until then missiles were nerfed so there was absolutley no point to nerfing speed cus after the missile nerf we still couldnt hit them! Yet again -1 caldari

Drake:
Used to be one of the toughest nuts in the game. Nearly uncrakable. 18months of being a drake pilot and i can now be solo'd. A concept that was unthinkable 18 months ago. Other races have been buffered so much that they can crack a drake solo. And if i wanted to make my drake un crackable i have to loose the point for more resists or shield. -1 caldari

The flip side:
-Amarr have had their lasers rebuffed after years of having them nerfed due to the fact they were deemed to powerful. What was the point in nerfing them back then if you were just gunna rebuff them to the same damage a few years later?
-Minmattar have had speed nerfed but to counter this they moaned until caldari got nerfed so the speed nerf became irrelevant.
-Caldari have never been allowed a proper drone bay. Every other race has adapted their technology to allow drones to be used as a major source of dps. A fact which means they out dps their caldari counterpart all of the time. What the hell has happened to caldari's military tech research team. Have they had theire head stuck in a black hole the last 4 years?Mad

Outcome:
after 18months of paying for a game and training a character the buffs ccp have introduced for other races and the nerfs they constantly inflict upon the caldari are making my character obsolete. I have paid 18months of subscription trained for a pvp char that is very quickly being made useless by ccp's constant grudge against the caldari race.Evil or Very Mad

It has finally got to the point with the insinuation that minmattar are so underpowered because they cant hit anything cus they move so fast. well newsflash most of us cant hit you cus u go so damn fast. Here's an idea try going slower and we might be able to start hitting each other!

I guess what it comes down to is ive just realised that ive spent 18months on a char that just became a waste of isk! I think its fair to say ccp are effectivley bullying and killing off the caldari race. If you look at how much sp a caldari player needs to be even slightly effective in vagainst a 2 month old gallente, min or amar player its astounding. I think this thread is an absolute joke. If you want to buffer somehting deal with the caldari race sucking so bad that people want to quit the game.Sad

Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion.
Posted - 2009.10.17 03:01:00 - [2]
 

alot of people have said that caldari are now only bookmarking and missioning race. Well what if i dont want to do one of those. Surely the race should have some option to pvp without jeopardising so much tank every 5 day old player knows they can kill caldari without too much of an issue!!!

I would seriously recommend that you fix this issue before alot of caldari players start leaving the game in order to find a more fairly balanced mmo whos makers dont persecute a group of players.

Brokk Ralo
Posted - 2009.10.17 03:08:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Brokk Ralo on 17/10/2009 03:09:19
Edited by: Brokk Ralo on 17/10/2009 03:08:57
Originally by: Deltaprimus
Here's an idea try going slower and we might be able to start hitting each other!



Win!
+1 to the OP

Zen Hayabusa
Posted - 2009.10.17 03:24:00 - [4]
 

I noticed this early in the game the the caldari are inferior to other races at PvP, but lucky for me I switched over to gallente after only a few months into the game so the set back was not so bad. I have never been happier than to move away from caldari ships. Only a select few are of any use

-Crow
-Jammers
-Drake
-Eagle (to a degree)

that pretty much covers it

Selieania
Posted - 2009.10.17 03:39:00 - [5]
 

Aye, my M8 and I were talking about this same Caldari fail problem today. We both started Caldari about 2 years ago and just recently he went to Gallente and I went to Amarr due to the SEVERE unbalance in the races. This NEEDS to be adressed by CCP. Caldari Sucks. Give the missles back their punch. Give the Falcon back it's wings. FFS give Caldari something OTHER than Kineetic damage and range bonuses.

OMG ItsATrap
Posted - 2009.10.17 03:39:00 - [6]
 

I'm Caldari Spec-d and am fine with it.

Yes, we are better in groups and less so solo, but that shouldn't be an issue since everyone and their mother can fly a drake tbh.


I hope you feel better soon.

Battlingbean
Heaven's Gate
Posted - 2009.10.17 04:02:00 - [7]
 

I totally agree. I've been playing for almost 2 years and have noticed Caldari is very underpowered.

I don't get the bonus to only kinetic missile damage. I know that kinetic is Caldari's damage type, However, their primary weapon system are missiles and one of the best thing about missiles is using the right damage type. Since most ships have great kinetic resists (except minmatar) this bonus is useless.Neutral

Also railguns need work in my opinion. Blasters are better in every way except range but most fights I've been in have been at close range so there is no reason to use railguns.

Zoran Caldor
Posted - 2009.10.17 04:14:00 - [8]
 

and everyone wonders why Caldaris are carebears, they keep getting teeth and claws taken away, well at least they have all the money TGFJ (or should that be thank ccp for jita?)

Sunbird Huy
Caldari
WEPRA CORP
White Noise.
Posted - 2009.10.17 04:28:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Sunbird Huy on 17/10/2009 04:36:03
Edited by: Sunbird Huy on 17/10/2009 04:32:34
Caldari pilots just need to fly with more imagination.

Drakes have a rhino class tank, f'ing hardcore.
Now fit that ship with HAM's, 2-3 balistic controls, mwd and a scram, and you will smoke the living **** out of any other battlecruiser.(most, or all of them need to get in under 10km range to be effective, except for harbinger, but they need to keep a point on you, so you will be able to close the gap). HAM's spewing out some 700+ dps or so. 1v1 you will kill the most popular bc class pvp boat - the hurricane without any doubt.

Just takes a bit of experimenting. Don't just say - oh why oh why , now i don't have 20k shields with 60+ all round resists no more...
Rook does amazing stuff, and cerb as well. Not saying they can solo easily, but...
Caracals pwn most other cruisers, if you do it right. Rigs are cheap now as well for everything below BS class, so use them. It don't have to be purgers on drake, nobody never said that ship HAS TO BE LOADED WITH SPR's . Just like brutixes and hurricanes fit shield buffers in mids and gank in lowslots, you can do the same with drakes, with probably more efficiency.

AND A SPECIAL NOTE=
Nobody is afraid of ECM ships, they just shoot them down. Either using the eccm to prevent them from jamming, or by sending drones at them. That's why you learn to work in teams, solo exists only in the above given suicidal examples, or calculated risk adventures, where you gank something and then try to deagress/escape.

EDIT:
LOL @eagle being used for pvp. It;s worthless, unless u go brzrk and fit blasters on it, but even then...
Most used =
drake/rook(pwnwagon)/caracal(what an underestimated ship)/crow(best inty in game methinks)/scorp(buffer-shieldtank for baiting)/ravens for zomg torp damage in small bs gangs(lowsec)/and blackbirds - the most pesky boats of them all. Still can jamm/shoot stuff from 100 or so km while not being as powerful in jamming, they do their share.

almost forgot onyx, maybe one of the most used ships from caldari + manticore. 2-3 manticores can fit sensor damps and kill battleships in extremely short time - torps do a mass carnage.

Izo Alabaster
Posted - 2009.10.17 04:40:00 - [10]
 

ECM is the worst idea ever implemented into EVE. CCP should completely remove it, and replace it with a less fun-sucking mechanic. They were right to nerf it.

Here's a good definition of overpowered:
Originally by: Deltaprimus
jame strength to perma jam a bs in one jammer.


So, you want to to be able to negate 1 large ship with every single midslot it has? On a ship that has 7 midslots???

Are you being sarcastic/troll?

Brokk Ralo
Posted - 2009.10.17 04:44:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Sunbird Huy

Caracals pwn most other cruisers, if you do it right.



Id love to see that fit, or is this a typo and you meant to say Frigate?

Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion.
Posted - 2009.10.17 04:56:00 - [12]
 

what i mean is before the nerf yes it was too easy to jam but now its ridiculously irritatingly hard to do so. battleships fit an eccm and theyre immune. i dont see anything that negates an arazu's scrambler knocking out your microwarpdrive or something negating the effect of a curse as easy as eccm does...

Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion.
Posted - 2009.10.17 05:03:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Sunbird Huy
Edited by: Sunbird Huy on 17/10/2009 04:36:03
Edited by: Sunbird Huy on 17/10/2009 04:32:34
Caldari pilots just need to fly with more imagination.

Drakes have a rhino class tank, f'ing hardcore.
Now fit that ship with HAM's, 2-3 balistic controls, mwd and a scram, and you will smoke the living **** out of any other battlecruiser.(most, or all of them need to get in under 10km range to be effective, except for harbinger, but they need to keep a point on you, so you will be able to close the gap). HAM's spewing out some 700+ dps or so. 1v1 you will kill the most popular bc class pvp boat - the hurricane without any doubt.

Just takes a bit of experimenting. Don't just say - oh why oh why , now i don't have 20k shields with 60+ all round resists no more...
Rook does amazing stuff, and cerb as well. Not saying they can solo easily, but...
Caracals pwn most other cruisers, if you do it right. Rigs are cheap now as well for everything below BS class, so use them. It don't have to be purgers on drake, nobody never said that ship HAS TO BE LOADED WITH SPR's . Just like brutixes and hurricanes fit shield buffers in mids and gank in lowslots, you can do the same with drakes, with probably more efficiency.

AND A SPECIAL NOTE=
Nobody is afraid of ECM ships, they just shoot them down. Either using the eccm to prevent them from jamming, or by sending drones at them. That's why you learn to work in teams, solo exists only in the above given suicidal examples, or calculated risk adventures, where you gank something and then try to deagress/escape.

EDIT:
LOL @eagle being used for pvp. It;s worthless, unless u go brzrk and fit blasters on it, but even then...
Most used =
drake/rook(pwnwagon)/caracal(what an underestimated ship)/crow(best inty in game methinks)/scorp(buffer-shieldtank for baiting)/ravens for zomg torp damage in small bs gangs(lowsec)/and blackbirds - the most pesky boats of them all. Still can jamm/shoot stuff from 100 or so km while not being as powerful in jamming, they do their share.

almost forgot onyx, maybe one of the most used ships from caldari + manticore. 2-3 manticores can fit sensor damps and kill battleships in extremely short time - torps do a mass carnage.



ok youve picked a few ships out. Now i want you to compare them to the gallente equivalent. Which would win in a fair fight. If that doesnt convince u how underpowered try amarr or minmattar. oh hang on wait a second thats everyone that can win against all but 1 ship mentioned. Gank raven c gank mega = raven dead. same sp caldai loose. common knowledge.

For a caldari pilot to be a challenge against the other races he needs to have nearly all shield skills level 5 just to stand a chance to last long enough to get through their armour.

Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion.
Posted - 2009.10.17 05:13:00 - [14]
 

would also like to point out sunbird according to battleclinic the only ships youve flown this month that are caldari is a scorpion. If caldari ships are good why did u feel the need to cross train for pvp?

the answer is simple. its because theyre better and caldari are underpowered for pvp.

Xing Fey
Posted - 2009.10.17 05:23:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/10/2009 05:26:01
Originally by: Deltaprimus
Gank raven c gank mega = raven dead.


Nope.
As he said, use some creativity in your fittings. Cookie cutter setups are often beaten out by smartly fit ships...

Caldari ships are very powerful used correctly, i'd argue, in fact, they have the best battleship line. Amarr battleships may be very powerful, but they are all very similar, they lack the versatility caldari has.

Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion.
Posted - 2009.10.17 05:28:00 - [16]
 

... yes but ur missing the point. In a straight forward 1v1 between a GANK FITTED MEGA and a GANK FITTED ROKH with STANDARD gank fits. Mega wins. Gank rokh cant beat the abaddon or the maelstrom. Caldari are the ***** of the univere. theyre so underpowered. If a gank mega came across a maelstrom it would think hmm good fight here gunna be a challenge. Atm if a gank mega comes across anything caldari its like hmm easy prey. People activly seek to fight caldari ships because theyre easy to kill.

Xoribixx
Posted - 2009.10.17 05:31:00 - [17]
 

/agree
Missles should be the Nano fitters worst nightmare. I used to be a T1 throwaway frig pvper, and 2 t1 frigs could easily beat a drake/raven....thats not how it should be...at least imo...

Xing Fey
Posted - 2009.10.17 05:31:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Deltaprimus
... yes but ur missing the point. In a straight forward 1v1 between a GANK FITTED MEGA and a GANK FITTED ROKH with STANDARD gank fits. Mega wins. Gank rokh cant beat the abaddon or the maelstrom. Caldari are the ***** of the univere. theyre so underpowered. If a gank mega came across a maelstrom it would think hmm good fight here gunna be a challenge. Atm if a gank mega comes across anything caldari its like hmm easy prey. People activly seek to fight caldari ships because theyre easy to kill.


You mean raven?

And yes, a raven can win. Re-consider your fitting options.

A rokh, maybe can't, but it's not terribly ideal for the job. Though I do think a range-dictating with null rokh might work nice, maybe i'l see how it works now...

Grarr Bexx
Posted - 2009.10.17 05:41:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Deltaprimus
... yes but ur missing the point. In a straight forward 1v1 between a GANK FITTED MEGA and a GANK FITTED ROKH with STANDARD gank fits. Mega wins. Gank rokh cant beat the abaddon or the maelstrom. Caldari are the ***** of the univere. theyre so underpowered. If a gank mega came across a maelstrom it would think hmm good fight here gunna be a challenge. Atm if a gank mega comes across anything caldari its like hmm easy prey. People activly seek to fight caldari ships because theyre easy to kill.


I duly enjoy how you picked a boat with 8.75 effective turrets versus a boat with no damage/tracking bonuses and just 8 effective turrets. 1v1 should never be a benchmark for ship performance.

Notice how the Rokh has a 10% optimal per level bonus? Have you tried using it?

Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion.
Posted - 2009.10.17 06:13:00 - [20]
 

sorry your right i meant raven. I was typing fast so i typed rokh because i was thinking about it in my head lol.

You cannot honestly say that caldari is balanced compared to the other three races. It is so incredibly underpowered it is unreal.

Xing Fey
Posted - 2009.10.17 06:19:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Deltaprimus
sorry your right i meant raven. I was typing fast so i typed rokh because i was thinking about it in my head lol.

You cannot honestly say that caldari is balanced compared to the other three races. It is so incredibly underpowered it is unreal.


Could you name some specific problems? and no "i cannot permajam a BS with 1 ECM" is not a problem.

Antaris Xenal
Gallente
Fear Inc
Posted - 2009.10.17 06:38:00 - [22]
 

troll much?

Deltaprimus
Shadow Legion.
Posted - 2009.10.17 07:02:00 - [23]
 

actually i can. Ive spent all night with some mates having the debate between about 10 of us. We cam up with the following problems and the way to fix them.
-damage bonuses is limited to kinetic damage type (highest damage resist in the game for all ships(mainly))
-no pvp cruiser which doesnt always end up second on the 1v1 stage
-ecm is too weak even in tech ii ships. Isnt viable on the bs stage.
-Cant hit nano tankers unless using tech ii weapons (only applies to precision missiles)

thats just a few. List will be uploaded shortly

Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
Posted - 2009.10.17 07:18:00 - [24]
 

Caldari ships are awesome, l2play. Also lol @ whining that dranke tank can be breached by 1 ship and then sayng that you could have it uncrackable if you will drop a point. Pick one version of story and stick with it, will ya ?


Ivorbiggerlobon
Posted - 2009.10.17 07:26:00 - [25]
 

Bottom line here is the game has become FUBAR from to much tinkering.

Yes EVE is now way to over complicated and little more than a skills grind and completely out of balance IMHO.

A Valid point made about the game being out of balance well done that man.

Xing Fey
Posted - 2009.10.17 07:28:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Xing Fey on 17/10/2009 07:31:16
Crap, forums just ate my post.

Anwyas, my replies were, in short:

1) armour tanks are the most common kind of tanking and they are generaly weak to kinetic, agaisnt t2 ships the ability to hit their very deep resistance holes overshadows the damage bonus in general. Oh, and not all caldari ships are only +kinetic.

2) Blackbird is the best t1 cruiser, for reasons below

3) ECM is still powerful, i get the feeling that you're trying too much to focus your jams and get a permajam, it's much more efficent to spread your jams between targets (unless one is a much bigger threat than others). Each 20 second jam cycle can deprive a battleship of up to 20,000 total damage output.

4) Precisions suck, your normal missiles shouldn't have too much trouble hitting, perhaps try target painters?

Winters Chill
Amarr
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.10.17 08:43:00 - [27]
 

100% accurate OP.

my 2 pence

Caldari ships do suffer from an over reliance on Cap and wierd damage resists.

The race is really bitty, with 3 or 4 scenero specific ships that people train for to use only.

Alot of gross DPS in ships is from drones. Caldari ships have the worst drone capacity of all the races.

Caldari missile damage bonuses only extend to kinetic missiles. Why? By this rational Minmatar gun damage bonues should only extend to ammo that uses Exp/Kin damage; sure use the EMP stuff, but its not racial, so no bonus right?

Give the caldari ships an increase in drone capacity, missiles never have or ever will be a balance to drones. CCP should stop balancing ships like they are.

Rockets need thier damage boosted. Light missiles need reasserted as thier anti frigate weapon system: boost thier ability to hit small targets. Shield boosters need thier cap use reduced.

Balance pass the caldari CCP!



Battlingbean
Heaven's Gate
Posted - 2009.10.17 08:44:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Battlingbean on 17/10/2009 09:06:36
Anyone think its odd a drake(battlecruiser) can kill a Rokh(battleship) fairly easily?

KissedByDeath
Posted - 2009.10.17 08:47:00 - [29]
 

Problem #1

shield tankers are at a disadvantage.
Gallente get 10% resist bonus to armor kin resists,
amarr get 10% exp resist bonus, minmatar get 10% em resist bonus to armor
caldari get 10% thermal bonus to base armor resist???????? why. they're shield tankers.


Problem #2 & #3 
caldari ships are slower than all other races AND they lack the mid slots to afford a web, not to mention propulsion and scram in some cases. Oh and some bright ppl suggest using TP. Here's an idea. TP is a minmatar thing it shouldn't be forced on caldari to make them effective and it takes a mid slot.

Problem #5
rocket,ham,siege lauchers carry less ammo than say blasters. On top of that raven gets bonus to Rate of fire. So it has to reload in the middle of the fight.


Problem #6(applies to most races but especially to caldari/minmatar)
If you have t2 lauchers u have 8 ammo types in cargo (fury/precision) and it's a b**ch changing ammo during a fight. 10 sec for reload and 10 sec to figure out from clutter which ammo you wanna choose. (faction is not always the answer) You should be able to choose ammo while ur lauchers/guns are still firing. The lauchers stop, load new ammo type and start firing again instead of >>> stop firing, spend 10 sec choosing the ammo type u wanna load, start firing.
Minmatar also face this problem. Ammo change accross all races can be implemented like this.



Solution
introduce x-large shield extender with double the stats of large shield extender and make them only fittable on BS? otherwise there can be a lot of abuse in BC class.

Change the name of guided missile precision to "Missile Precision" and let it apply to torps/hams/rockets as well

Double ham/rocket/siege launcher capacity.


Fix shield Xfers - reduce the cpu requirements.

give caldari ships 10% therm resists to shields not armor.
(maybe apply opposing faction both shield and armor resist bonuses accross all races not to screw minmatar)

allow changing ammo while the guns are still firing.



****************

this much for now.


Monet Eskrow
Posted - 2009.10.17 09:07:00 - [30]
 

If Drones are such a big problem, why not buff some more specifically against drones?
-Energy Pulse weapons dealing double or even triple damage against drones as a ship bonus to Caldari ships, combined with a lower Capacitator cost? This would also boost the sorry state that Smartbombs are in.
-A new skill causing drones to lose their "link" with their mothership through the use of ECM? 20% chance to disable a drone per jam per skill level. To the owner of the drones, this would mean having to scoop up all these drones to re-initialize them. If some pirate doesn't do that first, or maybe the Caldari pilot is smart enough to come with an empty bay, so he could steal one himself.

Just by the ability of negating a substantial part of an opponents DPS, making him know he has to actually work for it, instead of just "launch drones, sit back and relax".


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