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NiiKleagh
Posted - 2009.10.16 03:22:00 - [1]
 

I've got an important (kill) mission to do in low-sec space that frequently has pirates running through it.

I know from experience that BS's are tough enough, in mission areas, to scan out.

Based on that, should such missions be attempted in a HAC (knowing they ARE scanning for you), or just declined altogether?

So... how much less easily can a HAC be scanned in a mission area? Would they be able to scan the jump gates, or anything else, to aid them in finding a smaller ship doing a lvl 4 mission?

Renarla
Posted - 2009.10.16 03:49:00 - [2]
 

Ship size really doesn't make a huge difference in scanning anymore. Just pay attention to your directional scanner, if you see ships within an AU or two, warp out.

NiiKleagh
Posted - 2009.10.16 03:54:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Renarla
Ship size really doesn't make a huge difference in scanning anymore. Just pay attention to your directional scanner, if you see ships within an AU or two, warp out.


I've been away from the game for just over a year, so that is exactly the type of Info I needed.

Thanks.

I'm not sure that I like that small ships can be scanned out in missions just like the BS's can. It doesn't make sense.

NoNah
Posted - 2009.10.16 04:00:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Renarla
Ship size really doesn't make a huge difference in scanning anymore. Just pay attention to your directional scanner, if you see ships within an AU or two, warp out.


Wait what? Ship size makes a HUGE difference? More so now than ever?

All that matters to how easy you are to scan down is your signature radius and your sensor strength. Yes, there are changes done, but.. ship size is still horribly important and if you keep a somewhat small ship most pilots will give up or not have skills enough, which wasn't really an issue in the old system.

Basically, a marauder is probed out by an averagely skilled prober in a matter of seconds, you rarely have to go beyond 4 au probes at all while they're in a mission. In comparisson a strat cruiser can rather easily be made immune to probing, as in impossible to probe out even with a max skilled cov ops pilot with implants and faction equipment etc.

The magic rule is to get as high ratio between signature and sensor strength as possible, once you have 8% higher sensor strength than signature, you're safe.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.10.16 04:06:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 16/10/2009 04:06:01
Do it in an AF... Retribution sounds good to me.

-Liang

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.10.16 04:22:00 - [6]
 

ehm... the signature/sensor calc is still the same with the new probing system.
probe strengths pretty much correspond with the old ones aswell.
the range modifier was kept (or rather; quickly re-introduced) aswell. so numerically speaking and/or from a victim's point of view, nothing has changed.

Galmarr
Suddenly Ninjas
Posted - 2009.10.16 10:14:00 - [7]
 

With my skills, I can get 100% hit at 2AU

W0wbagger
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
Posted - 2009.10.16 18:43:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 16/10/2009 04:06:01
Do it in an AF... Retribution sounds good to me.

-Liang


yep AFs are a pain to scan in a recon :( (and good at getting away)

to OP - feel free to wait for a ship to come on scan before you gtfo but that probably means it's next to you already :P

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.10.16 18:54:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: NiiKleagh
I've got an important (kill) mission to do in low-sec space that frequently has pirates running through it.

I know from experience that BS's are tough enough, in mission areas, to scan out.

Based on that, should such missions be attempted in a HAC (knowing they ARE scanning for you), or just declined altogether?

So... how much less easily can a HAC be scanned in a mission area? Would they be able to scan the jump gates, or anything else, to aid them in finding a smaller ship doing a lvl 4 mission?
The scan dampening effect of deadspace is gone.

HACs aren't all that much harder to scan out than battleships. Especially if they're using shield extenders, but even those without them aren't terribly difficult.

It has to do with the ship size to sensor strength ratio. Anything over ~1.1 (ship size/sensor strength) can be found by a prober with max skills and a virtue set. Anything under than cannot be pinpointed (to 100% warpable hit), period. Above that it depends on the prober's skills, but you're not unscannable.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2009.10.16 19:10:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 16/10/2009 19:12:39
Originally by: Renarla
Ship size really doesn't make a huge difference in scanning anymore. Just pay attention to your directional scanner, if you see ships within an AU or two, warp out.




it's more like "if you see probes in a 4AU radious"Razz


but yes, everything said here is true.


also, is it me, or did scanning evolved to be a wee bit more easier, but also more of an art form? some days ago I had that terrible experience of having 5 probes out and you can't find anything unless you move the probes 0.0000000000000000001micron to the left?
Laughing

Unctom
Minmatar
Nomadic Wayfarer Syndicate
Posted - 2009.10.16 19:18:00 - [11]
 

Just be good at watching for scanner probes popping up on directional. There's usually not a lot to do while killing npc's so just keep clicking directional. Usually I am aligning out by the time people even finish launching all their probes.

Caldari Citizen4714
Posted - 2009.10.16 20:13:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 16/10/2009 19:12:39
Originally by: Renarla
Ship size really doesn't make a huge difference in scanning anymore. Just pay attention to your directional scanner, if you see ships within an AU or two, warp out.




it's more like "if you see probes in a 4AU radious"Razz


but yes, everything said here is true.


also, is it me, or did scanning evolved to be a wee bit more easier, but also more of an art form? some days ago I had that terrible experience of having 5 probes out and you can't find anything unless you move the probes 0.0000000000000000001micron to the left?
Laughing
The mechanics are such that only 4 probes are used in calculating things. Ditch the 5th, it'll actually make things worse. Or so people keep telling me...

regti onlat
Posted - 2009.10.16 20:40:00 - [13]
 

It is harder to scan down a HAC than a BS, but it also takes longer to complete a lvl4 in a HAC than a BS.

So, just keep an eye on the scanner, align to something when you mission, and warp out and back with your salvage ship if some combat scanner probes showed up on scanner.

NiiKleagh
Posted - 2009.10.16 23:21:00 - [14]
 

Damned good info, thank you - all - for discussing it.

I swear to god I am a PvP'er with one character, but the part of me who has to do missions with another character kind of wants it the old way, where dead-space missions were more difficult to probe out (I just about always found the Raven I was looking for though - eventually), and smaller ships were next to impossible (I was only about the get scans on about two BC's in deadspace missions, ever - and just decided to never try to find a cruiser ever again.)

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2009.10.16 23:26:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Caldari Citizen4714
Originally by: Grimpak
Edited by: Grimpak on 16/10/2009 19:12:39
Originally by: Renarla
Ship size really doesn't make a huge difference in scanning anymore. Just pay attention to your directional scanner, if you see ships within an AU or two, warp out.




it's more like "if you see probes in a 4AU radious"Razz


but yes, everything said here is true.


also, is it me, or did scanning evolved to be a wee bit more easier, but also more of an art form? some days ago I had that terrible experience of having 5 probes out and you can't find anything unless you move the probes 0.0000000000000000001micron to the left?
Laughing
The mechanics are such that only 4 probes are used in calculating things. Ditch the 5th, it'll actually make things worse. Or so people keep telling me...
5th probe helps a bit when you find the target in a 4AU sphere, but you only have 4 2AU probes in a single plane.

it's more of a safety net than anything tbh.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.10.17 07:36:00 - [16]
 

probing system only takes your 4 best probes into account. so.. although spamming the place doesn't help cumulatively, you might still squeeze out a percent here and there just due to the fact that 4 probes are in a more favourable position than the others.

NiiKleagh
Posted - 2009.10.17 13:16:00 - [17]
 

Well, watching the scanner was working, as I defeated the first scans that way.

I saw one probe at a distance, then three probes get closer - and I knew to get out.

But, later, as I was wrapping up the mission, without ever seeing multiple probes out ... nor even a single one ... I had a ship on the scanner that was in-warp toward me.

Once he landed in the mission I had to give it up.

rofflesausage
Posted - 2009.10.17 13:57:00 - [18]
 

ECCM will also make you much harder to scan.
Harder to scan = more time to see probes.

A couple (or more) of ECCMs on some ships will make you almost impossible to scan down, even with high probing skills on the hunter.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.17 14:00:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: NiiKleagh
I've got an important (kill) mission to do in low-sec space that frequently has pirates running through it.

I know from experience that BS's are tough enough, in mission areas, to scan out.

Based on that, should such missions be attempted in a HAC (knowing they ARE scanning for you), or just declined altogether?

So... how much less easily can a HAC be scanned in a mission area? Would they be able to scan the jump gates, or anything else, to aid them in finding a smaller ship doing a lvl 4 mission?


You can find BS by using 8au on combat probes easily. For hac usually need 2 au. So thats 2 more scans (8au -> 4au ->2au). About 15seconds longer.

Rilwar
BlackStar Industrial
Posted - 2009.10.17 20:06:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: NiiKleagh
Well, watching the scanner was working, as I defeated the first scans that way.

I saw one probe at a distance, then three probes get closer - and I knew to get out.

But, later, as I was wrapping up the mission, without ever seeing multiple probes out ... nor even a single one ... I had a ship on the scanner that was in-warp toward me.

Once he landed in the mission I had to give it up.



- Launch Probes out of scanner distance, set them up in formation way out of system plane.

- Locate target to a high degree of certainty with D-Scanner

- Drop probes on target with low range, one scan cycle and you have warpin, move probes back out of dscan range or recall.

- ???

- Profit.


DeputyFruitfly
Posted - 2009.10.17 21:34:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: rofflesausage
ECCM will also make you much harder to scan.
Harder to scan = more time to see probes.

A couple (or more) of ECCMs on some ships will make you completely impossible to scan down, even with high probing skills on the hunter.


I corrected your typo for you.

"Size" of ship isn't relevant to scanning - whatever that may mean.

Sig radius and sensor strength, however, are.

NiiKleagh
Posted - 2009.10.20 12:42:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: DeputyFruitfly
Originally by: rofflesausage
ECCM will also make you much harder to scan.
Harder to scan = more time to see probes.

A couple (or more) of ECCMs on some ships will make you completely impossible to scan down, even with high probing skills on the hunter.


I corrected your typo for you.

"Size" of ship isn't relevant to scanning - whatever that may mean.

Sig radius and sensor strength, however, are.


I am missing just what you corrected in the quote there.

But ... is that true? Active midslot ECCM's reduce the chances of being scanned out?

I got the mission done after using a cloak to just hide for a while. My guess is that after not finding me in stations and not finding me in space, they just gave up looking for ships in space when local had low numbers.

Thanks for all the suggestions - good stuff.

FlameGlow
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.10.20 13:20:00 - [23]
 

Talon implant set + x-instinct +
[Cerberus, unscanable]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Gravimetric Backup Array II

Photon Scattering Field II
Large Shield Booster II
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Gravimetric ECCM Scanning Array I
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

= one incredibly frustrated prober

Thercon Jair
Minmatar
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.10.20 16:19:00 - [24]
 

...and CCP probably wonders why hardly anybody is running lvl4/5s in lowsec... ;)

DS S
Posted - 2009.10.20 17:53:00 - [25]
 

highsec lvl 5's ftw

lovely song
Posted - 2009.10.24 09:04:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Renarla
Ship size really doesn't make a huge difference in scanning anymore.


THese people are the most dangerous type. Do you have any idea what you are talking about ? Size DOES matter in the following ->

target size = signature radius / sensor strength , then if target size is 1,1 it is immune to probing. It can be achieved by plugging in racial ECCM into mids or sensor backup arrays into lows or both. 1,1 target size can be easily implemented on strategic ruiser with Sequncer Dissolution electronic subsystem as it gives additional boost to sensor strength which can be further enhanced by modules.

Originally by: Renarla
Just pay attention to your directional scanner, if you see ships within an AU or two, warp out.


What the hell are you talking about ? How exactly do you intend to find out if there are ships nearby within 1 or 2 AU ? Directional scan does not give you that information. You can switch range to 1 or 2 AU, but then you will loose A LOT of information about the system. You may have been able to see those hostile ships which were sitting uncloaked within 10 AU, but you did not because you were watching directional scan at 2 AU ? Even if you do switch to 2 AU instead of maximum range, what will it give you? It will let you see briefly ships on scan before they actually jump on you, but then it would not really matter antyhing you are dead within next 20 seconds anyway. Your only bet with having directional scanner at 2 or 1 AU is if the mission/plex you are doing has acceleration gates in it. If thats the case then you would see that gang going through the first gate and will be able to warp out. But they will not be able to warp to you unless they scan you down with combat probes so it is easier to to keep scaning to combat probes with maximum range. That way you do not limit yourself to 2 AU and can utilize maximum length as well as have as much time as possible in order to make a decision whether you need to wartp out or no. The moment you see combat probes on scan, your timer starts. Consider this, even if you are sitting in 3rd room for example in plex, hostiles gang may still have very fast tackler going through the gates in front of main forces, which is specifically utilized to arrive first ASAP and tackle you. That way even if you see hostile gang at 1 au, which would in effect mean that they are at the first gate you may still severely miscalculate time which is available for you to get out plex.

Scnerios are infinite, and its always important to stay on the safe side. And not listen to people who are totally incompetent and barelly understand what they are talking about.


 

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