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Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:12:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Cista2 on 08/11/2009 13:56:26
Edit: bond is closed and paid back

Jita Direct Sale (JIDSALE) is the third option for trading in Jita. Manufacturers and traders coming to Jita now have the opportunity to sell to us at a price that is inbetween the sell order and buy order market price.

1st bond (with business plan info)
2nd bond (still running)
3rd bond is now open for purchase for A-list investors, AND reservations from new investors. A-list investors have until Wednesday October 14 at downtime to purchase AND send me iskies, after that deadline new investors that have made reservations can buy. List of investors in post below.

If you make a reservation you are NOT guaranteed to get any bonds. After the above deadline is reached you will have 24 hours to send me iskies. (Check for new posts from me when we reach that stage)

The bond
I am selling 30 bonds of 100,000,000 mil isk each. Maximum investment is 15 bonds (1.5 bil isk). The interest will be 12 percent, and returned like this: after 2 weeks you will receive 12 % of your investment back, and 2 weeks later 100 % of your principal is paid back on top of that. Start date is October 15. Investors that buy this bond will have priviliges for later bonds.

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:15:00 - [2]
 

In wich case put me on reservation list for 15 bonds .



Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:18:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Cista2 on 14/10/2009 16:57:02

Bonds sold
Aggelos Theristes - 400 mil isk (30 % interest)
Magnu Stormhawk - 500 mil isk (30 %)
Mikael Genexi - 200 mil isk (30 %)
Tsang Tchou - 200 mil isk (30 %)
Nemex - 200 mil isk (30 %)
Ginlaan - 200 mil isk (30 %)

New investors for 12 % interest bonds:
Quaz0r - 500 mil isk paid
Coleostro - 300 mil isk paid
Einear Lightfingers - 500 mil isk paid

Ahalya
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:25:00 - [4]
 


As new investor.....

Would like to reserve 15 bonds or whatever is available upto the max limit.

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:29:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: flakeys on 12/10/2009 10:30:44
Originally by: Ahalya

As new investor.....

Would like to reserve 15 bonds or whatever is available upto the max limit.


Making it only possible for previous investors from block A to invest in this venture from now on.


Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:38:00 - [6]
 

No more reservations please.

Roguehalo
Caldari
Roguehalo Ship Brokers
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:40:00 - [7]
 

Does anybody know anything about this guy? I'm not gonna call this a scam(so's not to upset flakey) but I seriously advise anybody investing in this to insist on an audit to see what trading skills he has and how much he turns over in Jita.
To all those who start screaming that you got your interest payments on time and got repaid your capital etc......go reread the General Newbold thread

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:50:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: flakeys on 12/10/2009 10:52:12
Originally by: Roguehalo
Does anybody know anything about this guy? I'm not gonna call this a scam(so's not to upset flakey) but I seriously advise anybody investing in this to insist on an audit to see what trading skills he has and how much he turns over in Jita.
To all those who start screaming that you got your interest payments on time and got repaid your capital etc......go reread the General Newbold thread



Anyone who doesn't see the risk of this venture and starts screaming afterwards about loosing it deserved it.Let me be clear on that one roguehalo Wink.Just as i was the first person to point out the probability of a scam on general newbold's offer.Difference is you call it a scam from the start and i only use that when it's 100% sure it is a scam and i only point out risks when i feel the need to because everyone should know what risks they are putting themselves into before they post 'i'll invest X amount'.

I am known for picking out X amount of rsk investments to keep it fun and as long as they don't go over the interests i earn a month from loans it is my risk and i won't shed a tear when it hits me in the face.I promise.


Roguehalo
Caldari
Roguehalo Ship Brokers
Posted - 2009.10.12 11:11:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Roguehalo on 12/10/2009 11:17:27

Ok I'm going to elaborate a bit on my previous post.

There are 3 characters involved here :-

1/ Cista2 created 22nd August created Jidsales 6th September

2/ Sistar2 created 23rd August joined Jidsales 8th September

3/ Cistacista created 31st August joined Jidsales 12th September

Ok now let's talk about daytrading in Jita

Jita is a very competitive place that is dominated by professional traders. The spread between buy/sell prices is very low particularly on popular items. In order to live and trade profitably in this environment you need to have high level trade skills. Specifically you need accounting trained to lvl5 to bring your sales tax down to .5% and Broker Relations trained to lvl5 to reduce your brokerage costs by 25% Additionally you really need to be working for the Caldari Navy and have high personal standings with them and high corp standings with the Caldari faction. With all that it's possible to bring brokerage costs to lower than .2%. (My own brokerage costs are .4% atm mainly due to having low corp standings with Caldari faction. My personal standing with Caldari Navy is 9.72 atm.)

The idea that Jidsales can interpose themselves between the Jita buy/sell spread and make a profit is I'm afraid a load of airy fairy nonsense a la Riethe/General Newbold etc etc

So is this a scam?

I dunno.......you people decide

edited : spelling

ResearchBunny Beatrix
Posted - 2009.10.12 11:16:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Ahalya

As new investor.....

Would like to reserve 15 bonds or whatever is available upto the max limit.


This exclamation point is obviously legit.

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2009.10.12 11:22:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Cista2 on 12/10/2009 11:24:05
Originally by: Roguehalo
The idea that Jidsales can interpose themselves between the Jita buy/sell spread and make a profit is I'm afraid a load of airy fairy nonsense
Your arguments are more or less correct. If you look at my previous posts you will see clearly stated that I had not yet made substantial profit with JIDSALE. I believe I do make good profit now - but my income have so far mainly come from normal station trading, as also stated before. This was always my fallback option, and people seem happy to invest on that premise. Meanwhile, Jidsale will be more and more profitable over time.

Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
Posted - 2009.10.12 11:30:00 - [12]
 

I would like to invest again. I will take the full 500m available to me under the old interest rate.

Will send ISK tonight.

Thanks for the opportunity Cista.

@ Roguehalo, all valid points, and mirror my own concerns in terms of how profitable the business can actually be. However i am less concerned with trade skills and more with volume of trade and margins Vs interest rate paid. I have been a regular customer of JIDSALE as well as an investor over the last month. I have traded a few hundred million ISK with JIDSALE and seen that there is a margin there for him. I am not yet convinced the business can work with a cost of capital this high, and it is likely that Cista is propping up interest payments with his normal station trading profits. Having said that he is working hard to try and make this business work and I think there is potential in it. As long as the repayments keep coming, I will be hanging onto this great return for as long as i can.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
Posted - 2009.10.12 11:40:00 - [13]
 

The problem I see with this venture, is that it's exactly a classic used in IRL frauds.

Phase 1: raise money.

Phase 2: buy overpriced stock. Paying for overpriced items allows for a very fast stock buildup.

Phase 3: sell some of that stock to create interest payments.

Phase 4: for this to work, a new money raise is required, in a sort of ladder.

Phase 5: keep buying stock. Fast is the keyword.

Phase 6: once the interest rates to pay become so big that it's impossible to sustain buying more overpriced stock, pull the plug and disappear with a puff of smartdom.

Pronto, you got several billions in quickly made stock and the full amount of the last bond chain-opened in the sequence.




Now, I cannot have any proof that this is what happens, but with your transparency, I cannot have proof that this won't happen either. And EvE is not exactly the game where to leave trust holes open...

Ambo
I've Got Nothing
Posted - 2009.10.12 12:06:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Roguehalo
Edited by: Roguehalo on 12/10/2009 11:17:27

Ok I'm going to elaborate a bit on my previous post.

There are 3 characters involved here :-

1/ Cista2 created 22nd August created Jidsales 6th September

2/ Sistar2 created 23rd August joined Jidsales 8th September

3/ Cistacista created 31st August joined Jidsales 12th September

Ok now let's talk about daytrading in Jita

Jita is a very competitive place that is dominated by professional traders. The spread between buy/sell prices is very low particularly on popular items. In order to live and trade profitably in this environment you need to have high level trade skills. Specifically you need accounting trained to lvl5 to bring your sales tax down to .5% and Broker Relations trained to lvl5 to reduce your brokerage costs by 25% Additionally you really need to be working for the Caldari Navy and have high personal standings with them and high corp standings with the Caldari faction. With all that it's possible to bring brokerage costs to lower than .2%. (My own brokerage costs are .4% atm mainly due to having low corp standings with Caldari faction. My personal standing with Caldari Navy is 9.72 atm.)

The idea that Jidsales can interpose themselves between the Jita buy/sell spread and make a profit is I'm afraid a load of airy fairy nonsense a la Riethe/General Newbold etc etc

So is this a scam?

I dunno.......you people decide

edited : spelling



Not true in the slightest.

I was keen on making some money from the the dominion speculation, created a brand new alt, got trade to lvl 2 and then started training the learning skills.

In less than a week I've made almost 400 mil. Not as much as I used to bring in but on an unskilled alt with no standings and no more than a few minutes here and there, it clearly shows that you do not need skills, standings or even much time if you have the capital. Smile

Ahalya
Posted - 2009.10.12 12:48:00 - [15]
 


I would like to invest again. I will take the full 500m available to me under the old interest rate.

Will send ISK tonight.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'll rule myself out, not enough to invest now, and wait for other opportunity.

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2009.10.12 13:38:00 - [16]
 

I agree fully and completely on most things with rogue and VV HOWEVER,

this is a game and in a game it is fun to take risks.Everyone for themselves determine the risk and invests as they see fit.I know there is a high risk in this venture but it is My isk wich i will use for this.My isk my risk.Those who blindly follow me on that risk as i have seen happen in other threads is their own descission.

My biggest concern however is the impact my investments these days and the isk i put into risky ventures is the following:

Looking at how quickly investments are sold out even if they are risky after i dumb a big amount of isk in it is astounding.So it got me to think if i wanted to scam it would be easy.Create an alt who does not want audits and such.Ask for a 25 bille loan.Post with flakeys in it saying he is willing to take 10 bille off with the message isk has been send.Then wait and see what happends and it is something i will not do BUT am tempted to do given the above.

Basically test the lemming effect.

On a sidenote if this was my first or only investment i would not put this amount of isk in it , see it as a tip for the other person who invested the same.But again his isk his risk.






Roguehalo
Caldari
Roguehalo Ship Brokers
Posted - 2009.10.12 14:15:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Roguehalo on 12/10/2009 14:16:09

The Ricdic lemmings effect cost people a fortune in the Riethe debacle. That was ofc, before he cost them another fortune in the Ebank debacle.

edit : spelling

Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2009.10.12 14:36:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Roguehalo
So is this a scam?


No, it's not.

Is it risky? Probably. Will he make profit? I have no idea. Invest only what you can lose? Always. Will he later decide to run? There's always that chance.

But I've been in chat with this person for a month or so now. This is the same character that first came up with the Signatures chat channel. The idea was sort of a meta-crop. We use signatures in our buy and sell orders (like ending the order in a certain cents value) and then if we notice other trader's signatures on certain items we are competing on we could see if we could negotiate.

Eh, the idea was kind of neat, but it didn't work out so well. Heck, I stopped using my signature after a week. Now we just use the channel as a small trader's chat channel among a few friends.

Now, I haven't looked at his API or anything. No "proper audit" done there, but I've been chatting for a while and getting to know him, and his Jita Direct Sale is an honest attempt. He could very well lose money on it. He could also see that the interest ends up being impossible as VV said and bail. I, personally, don't see him doing that, but I can't predict the future.

And there's a 4th character on this person's account. I can't remember the name, though, atm.

Quote:
Jita is a very competitive place that is dominated by professional traders. The spread between buy/sell prices is very low particularly on popular items. In order to live and trade profitably in this environment you need to have high level trade skills. Specifically you need accounting trained to lvl5 to bring your sales tax down to .5% and Broker Relations trained to lvl5 to reduce your brokerage costs by 25% Additionally you really need to be working for the Caldari Navy and have high personal standings with them and high corp standings with the Caldari faction. With all that it's possible to bring brokerage costs to lower than .2%. (My own brokerage costs are .4% atm mainly due to having low corp standings with Caldari faction. My personal standing with Caldari Navy is 9.72 atm.)


No. Yes, Jita is competitive. No, you don't need Lvl 5 Accounting and Broker Relations and high standings to make profit. I traded in Amarr (and nearby regions) for my first month and a half, recently moved near Jita. Yes, the environment is different, but intelligent traders with Lvl 4 Accounting, lvl 4 Broker Relations, and mediocre standings can make profit. Maybe not as much profit as you deem worthy, but a decent profit. I know, because I've been doing it.

Quote:
The idea that Jidsales can interpose themselves between the Jita buy/sell spread and make a profit is I'm afraid a load of airy fairy nonsense a la Riethe/General Newbold etc etc


So... nope. Just have to choose the right items. Buy/sell at the right times of the week, etc.

Roguehalo
Caldari
Roguehalo Ship Brokers
Posted - 2009.10.12 14:46:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Dretzle Omega

But I've been in chat with this person for a month or so now. This is the same character that first came up with the Signatures chat channel. The idea was sort of a meta-crop. We use signatures in our buy and sell orders (like ending the order in a certain cents value) and then if we notice other trader's signatures on certain items we are competing on we could see if we could negotiate.

Eh, the idea was kind of neat, but it didn't work out so well. Heck, I stopped using my signature after a week. Now we just use the channel as a small trader's chat channel among a few friends.

Now, I haven't looked at his API or anything. No "proper audit" done there, but I've been chatting for a while and getting to know him, and his Jita Direct Sale is an honest attempt. He could very well lose money on it. He could also see that the interest ends up being impossible as VV said and bail. I, personally, don't see him doing that, but I can't predict the future.

And there's a 4th character on this person's account. I can't remember the name, though, atm.




Well it's good that stuff like this is coming to light......but really it's the investors who should have been digging this stuff out instead of just shovelling isk at these bonds like er lemmings.

Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2009.10.12 15:57:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Roguehalo
Well it's good that stuff like this is coming to light......but really it's the investors who should have been digging this stuff out instead of just shovelling isk at these bonds like er lemmings.


Agreed. Also a lesson to the OP, I suppose. Link to some of the past threads to show your humanity er history, especially when you are "newer" on the scene.

Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
Posted - 2009.10.12 16:37:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Roguehalo

Well it's good that stuff like this is coming to light......but really it's the investors who should have been digging this stuff out instead of just shovelling isk at these bonds like er lemmings.


Before i sent my first ISK I noted Cista's new face, read some of his previous posts, on the signatures channel etc, weighed up the risk v reward. I decided he sounded like he was interested in trying to creating something cool rather than scamming. So I invested. Then I monitored my investment by hanging out in the channel and watching the transactions, and chatting to Cista now and then. I also used the service myself and saw it working. Now I choose to reinvest on the basis of what i have learned. Just because we dont explain ourselves to the public when we make our investment, doesnt necessarily make us lemmings.

My basis of trust when I invested in you was a little more flimsy, but I did nonetheless have a reason on top of following the crowd Razz

flakeys
The Great cornholio's
Paper Tiger Coalition
Posted - 2009.10.12 16:44:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: flakeys on 12/10/2009 17:08:06
Edited by: flakeys on 12/10/2009 16:46:27
Originally by: Roguehalo
Originally by: Dretzle Omega

But I've been in chat with this person for a month or so now. This is the same character that first came up with the Signatures chat channel. The idea was sort of a meta-crop. We use signatures in our buy and sell orders (like ending the order in a certain cents value) and then if we notice other trader's signatures on certain items we are competing on we could see if we could negotiate.

Eh, the idea was kind of neat, but it didn't work out so well. Heck, I stopped using my signature after a week. Now we just use the channel as a small trader's chat channel among a few friends.

Now, I haven't looked at his API or anything. No "proper audit" done there, but I've been chatting for a while and getting to know him, and his Jita Direct Sale is an honest attempt. He could very well lose money on it. He could also see that the interest ends up being impossible as VV said and bail. I, personally, don't see him doing that, but I can't predict the future.

And there's a 4th character on this person's account. I can't remember the name, though, atm.




Well it's good that stuff like this is coming to light......but really it's the investors who should have been digging this stuff out instead of just shovelling isk at these bonds like er lemmings.


Now i have been patient but Who The **** are you to decide how i throw my isk out.I see the same people telling how to invest but i don't see them invest one thing.Even better they are the ones who themselves need to ask for a loan because they can not accomplish their own goals by themselves.

Tell me rogue how much isk have you invested in ipo's/bonds on MD forum at this point.
Tell me how much is your loan from your own ipo/bond at this moment.
Tell me how much threads you have trolled for scamcalling in the last few weeks.




Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Posted - 2009.10.12 17:15:00 - [23]
 

must resist replying to thread

Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2009.10.12 17:18:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Dretzle Omega
Originally by: Roguehalo
Well it's good that stuff like this is coming to light......but really it's the investors who should have been digging this stuff out instead of just shovelling isk at these bonds like er lemmings.


Agreed. Also a lesson to the OP, I suppose. Link to some of the past threads to show your humanity er history, especially when you are "newer" on the scene.


And I might take this moment to point out that I was only agreeing that in my opinion investors should do some homework, and not at all implying that any investors haven't. Very Happy

Mikael Genexi
Gallente
Product Number 3
Posted - 2009.10.12 17:26:00 - [25]
 

I'm in again for 200M.

Nemex
Legion of Tovil-Toba
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2009.10.13 16:57:00 - [26]
 

I'd like to reserve 2 bonds (200mil) if possible.

Tsang Chou
Tsang Chou Bonds
Posted - 2009.10.13 17:06:00 - [27]
 

If and when this re-opens, we'll put in for 5 bonds.

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2009.10.13 17:32:00 - [28]
 

Nemex and Tsang Tchou (and Genexi) - maybe this was somehow unclear in the OPs:

Since you are A-list investors, this bond is open to YOU - that's what it is here for. You have until tomorrow at dt to wire me the isk.

Roguehalo
Caldari
Roguehalo Ship Brokers
Posted - 2009.10.13 18:01:00 - [29]
 

"open for A-list investors only"

Isn't this the kind of phrase boiler room operators use?

If I heard this in an ipo I was considering investing in I'd run a mile

Cista2
Hydra Investment Fund
Posted - 2009.10.13 18:48:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Cista2 on 13/10/2009 18:50:45
Originally by: Roguehalo
If I heard this in an ipo I was considering investing in I'd run a mile

Sigh.
1) You cannot consider this bond because it is not open
2) It was open for new investors yesterday from 10:12:00 to 10:25:00. In that space of time the header was "JIDSALE - 3rd bond - open".
After 10:25:00 it was closed for reservations and the header became "open for A-list investors only".

See - there's an explanation for everything :)


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