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HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.12 04:18:00 - [61]
 

perhaps the moros can get an armoru repping bonus or something along those lines but the moros is getting a bonus to its railgun damage this brings it in line with the short range dps boost.

Ex Mudder
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Posted - 2009.10.12 05:57:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Ex Mudder on 12/10/2009 05:57:15
Will any of these changes effect Citadel POS Mods or Large Guns? Or is it just making it easier for Dreads to kill POSs, and potentially each other?

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.12 06:05:00 - [63]
 

from what i can gather from chatting to peeps in fd local is that it seems to be easier to kill other dreads but more importantly up close and personal on poses. Which means more intense combat unless u go snipe range do u then warp in a smaller group to engage the enemy close ? fighter bombers are a factor as well. Titans will need more mothership support if brought onto the field.

HICs face more pressure or at least needing to fit target disruptors as well

Id like to see some new snipe weapons introduced as well perhaps they could start with tech 2 dreads / factional dreads

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.10.12 09:29:00 - [64]
 

Some back-of-the-envelope calculations:

Current Phoenix DPS with kinetic torps, 3*dam mod: 4039
Future Phoenix DPS with kinetic torps, 3*dam mod: 6528
Future Phoenix max range with torps: 59km (~55km in reality)

Current Naglfar DPS with ACs w/EMP, torps, 3*gyro: 5205
Future Naglfar DPS with ACs w/EMP, torps, 3*gyro: 6884 (includes EMP change)
Future Naglfar range with ACs w/EMP: 28km optimal + 19km falloff

Current Moros DPS with blasters w/AM, 3*dam mod: 5104
Future Moros DPS with blasters w/AM, 3*dam mod: 5833
Future Moros range with blasters w/AM: 28km optimal + 12.5km falloff

Current/future Revelation with pulses w/MF, 3*dam mod: 4666
Future Revelation range with pulses w/MF: 31km optimal + 6km falloff

5*Bouncer IIs add 262 DPS for Phoenix/Revelation/Naglfar, 525 DPS for future Moros.

Compared to Naglfar, Phoenix does a bit less damage with better range, very similar tanks, seems balanced.

Compared to Revelation, Moros does about 1400 DPS more with similar range, pretty similar tanks. Uh, what?

Compared to Moros, Phoenix does 400 DPS more at double the range (counting the drones), and has a better sustained tank (much better burst tank). Naglfar does 750 DPS more with similar range and better tank.

Compared to Revelation, Phoenix does _1900_ DPS more at double the range and has a better sustained tank (much better burst tank). The EHPs are about the same, though. Naglfar does *2200* DPS more at similar range and better tank.

... are you sure that this is balanced?

FFS, CCP, you could take the five bloody minutes to run the suggested numbers through _some_ sanity check before wasting our time with them. *sigh*

I really, really hope that I'm overlooking something here. Neutral

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2009.10.12 09:49:00 - [65]
 

How do they compare when fit for sniping? My understanding was that the Revelation was the "best" long-range dread, does that still hold true?

justin666
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:05:00 - [66]
 

yea i belive so.............to the guy above

GHO57
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:55:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: GHO57 on 12/10/2009 10:58:16
Edited by: GHO57 on 12/10/2009 10:55:40
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
I really, really hope that I'm overlooking something here. Neutral

You are overlooking something pretty obvious. 28-31kms is still worthless in capital fight, it cannot even shoot towers. Sticking to long range guns in their current state on TQ:
Rev does 4.5k DPS (w drones 4754)
Moros does 3.6k DPS (w drones 4551)
Phoenix does 4.44k DPS (w drones 4.7k)
Naglfar does 3.8k DPS (w drones 4089)
Drones are bouncers ofc.

So how is the moros broken? What you need to rethink is xl pulses, not nerf dreads.Moros has been like this for ages and noone complained, now few low-sec piwate wannabes complained about getting ganked on a station and came to cry on the forums. Think how this will affect 0.0 warfare and the thousands of people that fly moros. And how's this going to affect future moros pilots, making their dread a second hand rev copy. My main is already maxed gallente pilot(hacs, commands, caps), but current state of amarr ships made me train for amarr hacs, comamnds and battleships(deimos, ishtar, eos, been totally useless and megathron performing worse than geddon/apoc on every level), obviously I'll have to train amarr caps too.

Why don't you, instead of nerfing capitals, try to balance current state of heavy assaults and battleships, which is broken by general agreement? It's already Amarr Online, can I have some comparable ships for the other races please? You might not remeber, but there 3 others.

Wideen
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.10.12 11:24:00 - [68]
 

I like these changes in general.

As for the phoenix pilots; it's a buff.

Cruise now replaces torps as they were as they have the same stats, only difference is torps got buffed so you'll have more dmg than you currently can dish out, but at the expense of range as all other dreads suffer from.

Very nice.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.12 11:59:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
How do they compare when fit for sniping? My understanding was that the Revelation was the "best" long-range dread, does that still hold true?


WTB: scorch XL ;p

True, rev looks quite poor now in comparison

Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.10.12 12:09:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Theron Gyrow on 14/10/2009 09:19:52
Originally by: Gypsio III
How do they compare when fit for sniping? My understanding was that the Revelation was the "best" long-range dread, does that still hold true?


Long-range stats if the changes go through as per the original post:

Phoenix with kinetic capital cruises, 3*dam mod:
4039 DPS out to 191km (~185km in reality)

Naglfar with 3*gyro, capital cruises:
4645 DPS at 50km optimal + 88km falloff with EMP
3497 DPS at 100km optimal + 88km falloff with DU
2635 DPS at 160km optimal + 88km falloff with new carb lead.
1201 DPS comes from the missiles, so 3444/2296/1434 from guns.

Revelation with 3*dam mod:
4083 DPS at 50km optimal + 40km falloff with multifreq
2722 DPS at 100km optimal + 40km falloff with standard
1701 DPS at 160km optimal + 40km falloff with radio.

Moros with 3*dam mod:
3782 DPS at 60km optimal + 60km falloff with AM
2522 DPS at 120km optimal + 60km falloff with lead
1576 DPS at 192km optimal + 60km falloff with iron.

If in range, 5*Bouncer IIs add 262 DPS for Phoenix/Revelation/Naglfar, 525 DPS for future Moros.

Originally by: GHO57

You are overlooking something pretty obvious. 28-31kms is still worthless in capital fight, it cannot even shoot towers.´



30km large tower shield rad, so it's just possible, and it's certainly possible with other ammo than the shortest range one. However, even if that was true, wouldn't that just exacerbate the problem, since 55km is >> 30km?

FT Cold
Mission Runner Exclusive
Posted - 2009.10.12 13:25:00 - [71]
 

Congrats CCP, way to nerf the Amarr buff everyone else... yet again... (except for the nano nerf, I'm sorry minmatar).

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.12 13:34:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/10/2009 13:34:17
When we are at it. Can you remove cap use from XL pulses/beams and rails/blasters? I guess as "cap use is not a bonus" it wouldnt be a big problem. Considering Rev does worst close range DPS and isnt the best one at range either.

Kreonny
Minmatar
R.U.S.H
Red Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.12 13:51:00 - [73]
 

Next step - it's to make possible remote-reps in siege and triage.

Lialem
Posted - 2009.10.12 14:05:00 - [74]
 

Quote:
That Moros issue...

We've decided to keep its drone bonus intact but reduce it from 50% per level to 20% per level. To compensate, the Dual 1000mm Railgun I has had its base damage mod increased by 15%, from 5.5 to 6.3.


Moros was just fine, drones were just hitting like 2 dominix, just as they supposed to be because moros is a dreadnaught and dominix is a battleship. Now a dreadnaughts drones hit like the dominix.
First was the naglfar, it was only dread that had 4 weapons, now you ruined it and made it like the rest, here comes the moros also now.
Every race has its weapons and gallente have their drones and they suppose to get bonus to them and an appropriate bonus of the ship class.
A complete fail on my vocabulary, CCP you crossed the line, you are now on the side of blizzlike companies who do everything to please even a single request on forums, cause they want more and more people. Pretty sad tbh how money corrupt.
Go ahead and ruin your own game, looks like dominion wont be full of goodies but instead full of stupid "balance" changes. Just delete the races and make only one, will eb much easier for you, no balance issues and more players and money for you.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.12 14:06:00 - [75]
 

And now seriously:

- bump moros and rev close range damage a bit (at least to lower 6000's with 3 damage mods)
- give all dreads ~150km drone control range

Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
Posted - 2009.10.12 14:27:00 - [76]
 

When you compare citadel missiles with other weapons (phoenix with other dreads) you forget a/flight time and b/singature radius. Sure, maybe a phoenix can do more dps on paper with torps but dont forget that as much as 90% of the damage can be midigated by sig radius even on a stationary target (a good example from only this weekend turret dreads was hitting L Pulse Laser Modules for full damage. phoenix hit for 1/4 damage or less). Also, perhaps a (future) phoenix with citadel cruise can hit for full damage to 191km, but the damage will arrive about the time everyone else has gone home and logged. Or do you think the term loldread was invented out of nothing, that some alliances actively encurage phoenix pilots to train something else for nothing?

Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.12 15:14:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 12/10/2009 15:23:47
Range of capital torps is 26500m ? :D
It's a joke ?

All dread short range weapon can shot to 60km after change without skills, but capital torps is 26500m ? Moros drones to 20% damage nerf ?
Why ? Station huggin ? When a thanatos goes to station huggin, will be change the fighters ? The problems is the redock time .
Oh my....... another unlogic changes from new CCP guys.
Guys please use grey matter and change the main problem not the caused things.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.12 15:31:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/10/2009 15:31:13
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit
Edited by: Tiger''s Spirit on 12/10/2009 15:23:47
Range of capital torps is 26500m ? :D
It's a joke ?

All dread short range weapon can shot to 60km after change without skills, but capital torps is 26500m ? Moros drones to 20% damage nerf ?
Why ? Station huggin ? When a thanatos goes to station huggin, will be change the fighters ? The problems is the redock time .
Oh my....... another unlogic changes from new CCP guys.
Guys please use grey matter and change the main problem not the caused things.


Before you start whining use your brain a little (and read up the thread). Range is around 55km (effective, theoretical around 60). Skills give you x1,5x1,5 range

GHO57
Posted - 2009.10.12 15:39:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: GHO57 on 12/10/2009 15:42:39
Edited by: GHO57 on 12/10/2009 15:41:38
Originally by: Theron Gyrow

If in range, 5*Bouncer IIs add 262 DPS for Phoenix/Revelation/Naglfar, 525 DPS for future Moros.



Bouncer have 60km control range and around 50 optimal(with maxed EWDI!) and are usless most of the time. So the moros will have to fight within 57kms to be equal to the other dreads in DPS. Great change.


Gordon Red
Posted - 2009.10.12 16:15:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
Turrets
6 x 2500mm Repeating Artillery I
Optimal Range: 8 / 45
Falloff: 32 / 15
Damage Mod: 5.39 / 6.2
Tracking: 0.0216 / 0.0108



A high optimal and less falloff is not in line with the minmatar autocannons (short range) anymore!

And now, I need only Scorch XL for my Revelation. (+Large Energy Locus Coordinatior II) :D

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.10.12 16:37:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: FT Cold
Congrats CCP, way to nerf the Amarr buff everyone else... yet again... (except for the nano nerf, I'm sorry minmatar).


Revelation has had its time in the sun. If the Phoenix gets to be 'no longer the worst dread ever' for a while I don't really see a huge issue.

Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.12 16:57:00 - [82]
 

Range of capital torps is 26500m ? :D
It's a joke ?

All dread short range weapon can shot to 60km after change without skills, but capital torps is 26500m ? Moros drones to 20% damage nerf ?
Why ? Station huggin ? When a thanatos goes to station huggin, will be change the fighters ? The problems is the redock time .
Oh my....... another unlogic changes from new CCP guys.
Guys please use grey matter and change the main problem not the caused things.


Before you start whining use your brain a little (and read up the thread). Range is around 55km (effective, theoretical around 60). Skills give you x1,5x1,5 range


Before you start whining try to read dear whine man.

"without skills" Capise ? WITHOUT SKILL!!!
Brain man.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.12 17:05:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/10/2009 17:14:51
Originally by: Ulstan
Originally by: FT Cold
Congrats CCP, way to nerf the Amarr buff everyone else... yet again... (except for the nano nerf, I'm sorry minmatar).


Revelation has had its time in the sun. If the Phoenix gets to be 'no longer the worst dread ever' for a while I don't really see a huge issue.


I think you dont "get" the issue. As it happens naglfar with long range guns (and missiles) deals same DPS as revelation with short range guns (both using short range ammo).

Its not about who gets to be "uber" for a year till next boost/nerf cycle but about getting them all quite balanced. Which looking at above is quite off.

@ guy above
If you dont understand that all ships are balanced at "max skill" level, not "without skills" then its not my problem.

EDIT:
% damage buff when going from long to close range:
phoenix: 61%
moros: 54%
naglfar: 48%
revelation: 14%

You dont have to be rocket scientist to see that something odd happened here (values are w/o drones, used ones posted above so all with close range ammo)

CCP Abathur


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.12 17:55:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: kwix
I think there's little doubt here that this nerf is entirely about the station hugging and low-sec usage of the Moros


No, it's more about the fact that a max skilled Moros pilot with 5x Ogre II's did 1109 DPS, which is more than a max skilled Carrier pilot with 10x fighters deployed.

Originally by: Fuujin
Reminder to CCP: Please include faction citadel cruises on release of Dominion, and not forget about the missile users (again) for a year. Thanks!


Yep, doing that.

Originally by: Fuujin
Some fleshed out stats of the citadel cruises would be nice...are they affected by guided missile precision?


If it affects the torpedoes, it will affect the cruises.

Originally by: Fuujin
Require cruise 5?


Yes, just as the Torpedo launcher requires Torpedoes V. The skills will follow the same path as their smaller counterparts.

Originally by: Fuujin
What will the fitting requirements be?


For the launcher, close enough to the torp launcher that it won't really be an issue.

A few comments:

For the turrets, the stats in the OP are essentially based around making sure that the short range turrets can effectively hit a large POS within their optimal range. If some of you feel that is 'too much' then feel free to explain why and what you'd rather see.

The tracking has been nerfed because it was honestly just too good and we also didn't want to see Titans blasting apart HACs with ease. As for the missiles, we have to be careful balancing them as well so that they don't do the same.

None of this is being done in an attempt to nerf or boost any one ship. Trying to guess about why this is being done is not helpful. These weapons need to be fixed. I don't think anyone wants them to remain they way they are currently on TQ and with a little tweaking we can provide capital pilots a bit more of a dynamic in how they can use their ships. If you really want to affect change, get onto SiSi and test them out. Provide constructive feedback on how you would like to see these weapons used.

Should the 'short rage' weapons ignore starbase shooting and have shorter optimals and more falloff for capital engagements? How much damage would you like to see these weapons doing? Should we look at the long range turrets as well? These are just some of the questions you can base your feedback on. We put these changes out early in order to hear from you. Those of you who have already responded with numbers & solid comments, thank you. Smile

Zarazaa
Scarlet Blood
Posted - 2009.10.12 17:56:00 - [85]
 

Is this a ****ing joke!?
Pulling numbers out of ones ass it's not what EVE is about Abathur.. this is beyond ridiculous, is insulting..
Is the 'pirate ship reballance' all over again, let's pull some numbers out of our asses and see if it works or not, ofcourse it has nothing to do with scaling, racial specifics or even racial falvor.. but who cares!

Abathur, there are problems with Turrets and Missile Launchers at almost every lvl, from Rockets to large Blasters and ofc Capital sized ones.. and seeing your unique way of dealing with them makes me wonder if anyone actualy has a clue about wtf he's doing over there..

You have two excellent balancing tools, Scaling and the Bonus Sistem, all you need is a decent base concept but instead you do this ****..
If you wanna do it right, rethink the Small Turrets and Missile Launchers, inplement different Scaling values for each race or even weapon sistem where is needed, more so implement different Scaling values for specific Weapon attributs as Optimal Range or Falloff for example, and come up with a decent end product that will work for all races with the current Bonus Sistem, or an overhauled bonus sistem... and we won't see 259% per lvl bonus to lameness again.

I could write 10 more pages, but it's pointless anyway..

ps. If you're Seleene you're simply clueless mate, stop ****ing up the game.

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.12 18:06:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur

Should the 'short rage' weapons ignore starbase shooting and have shorter optimals and more falloff for capital engagements? How much damage would you like to see these weapons doing? Should we look at the long range turrets as well? These are just some of the questions you can base your feedback on. We put these changes out early in order to hear from you. Those of you who have already responded with numbers & solid comments, thank you. Smile


Imo damage boost is quite good (except for revelation as stated earlier). 2 close range dreads can deal as much damage as 3 long range so it actually gives you OPTION of doing close-range gangs for hotdrops (or counter drops or whatever).

Long range turrets seem quite balanced now (moros deals a bit less than rev but he can load one tier higher ammo to cover the difference due to range advantage vs rev). Phoenix and Naglfar do a bit more dipisi that others but some of it comes from missiles = delay. So its also quite balanced. One change you could make is boost cruises velocity a little more. 6 base, 9km/s after skills. Ends up with 20sec delay not 30. Ofc drop flight time accordingly.

What else. Like i posted before: up drone control range on dreads to 150km or so (unless you really dont want dreads to "snipe" with sentries).

And close range guns. More-less balanced. Lazors need higher optimal imo (atm they have crappiest range. 3km optimal advantage is worth less than 15+km faloff advantage ACs get). But total ranges seem ok (30ish on closest, 80ish on longest).

And the damage issue with revelation. Not only it has worst range now but it uses LOTS of cap to fire. It should enter 6000's damage range with close range guns. So should moros.

This way you go for long range and end up with ~4k DPS or close range for about 6k DPS. Rest is minor tweaks i guess.

LoveKebab
Caldari
LOST IDEA
C0VEN
Posted - 2009.10.12 18:46:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: LoveKebab on 12/10/2009 18:50:00
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
And now seriously:

- bump moros and rev close range damage a bit (at least to lower 6000's with 3 damage mods)



there was that 1 dread who was getting ahead of the others every couple minutes cuz it doesn't need to reload its guns but i forgot it's name... it begins with "R"

every couple minutes while other dreads need to reload, revs keep shooting which gets their dmg closer if not ahead of the rest

not to mention that most of the killmails got band of revelations always on top outdamaging other dreads by A LOT

GHO57
Posted - 2009.10.12 19:08:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: CCP Abathur
Originally by: kwix
I think there's little doubt here that this nerf is entirely about the station hugging and low-sec usage of the Moros


No, it's more about the fact that a max skilled Moros pilot with 5x Ogre II's did 1109 DPS, which is more than a max skilled Carrier pilot with 10x fighters deployed.


And why is this a problem, as a maxed out carrier with 10 fighters deals a lot less DPS than a 50 mil battleship? Carriers in their current stae are nothing more than logistics capital ships. And a maxed out thanatos still does a lot more DPS than moros. Carriers can fit DCUs and so on, sorry but this reasoning seems a little odd to me. It's the dread's personality, nerfing will just make it the gallente variant of the Rev. We all want balansed ships with their strong and weak sides, but we don't want everyone to fly the same ships.Smile

Yeah, you probably want to make people support their dread fleets with subcaps. Sadly, this has never been a issue, there have been thousands of cap battles, I personally fought dread in RRBSes quite a few times and moros drones were never such a big problem. testing on Sisi a single moros is hardly comparable to the ways it's used on TQ.

Kreonny
Minmatar
R.U.S.H
Red Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.12 20:17:00 - [89]
 

I understand what you want to do, but 45 km optimal - it's not the minmatar style. It may be good decisions, and all other minmatars will be happy… But true minmatars know – auto canon with such optimal – it’s fantastic, it’s just can ‘not be. If your goal – give auto cannons more damage than artillery on short range – make XL auto cannons + 10% dmg mode , 12 km optimal and 60 km falloff. It will be like auto canon, not like Gatling XL artillery. And still can make more damage in 0-45km range than artillery.

Walker Bulldog
Minmatar
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Posted - 2009.10.12 20:23:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Kreonny
I understand what you want to do, but 45 km optimal - it's not the minmatar style. It may be good decisions, and all other minmatars will be happy… But true minmatars know – auto canon with such optimal – it’s fantastic, it’s just can ‘not be. If your goal – give auto cannons more damage than artillery on short range – make XL auto cannons + 10% dmg mode , 12 km optimal and 60 km falloff. It will be like auto canon, not like Gatling XL artillery. And still can make more damage in 0-45km range than artillery.


Their intention is to make short range guns preferred at typical large tower busting ranges, and if they do it your way, and give autocannons enough damage to have parity with other guns that deep into falloff, they'll absolutely DESTROY at optimal. Conversely, if they give autocannons similar damage to blasters/pulses at optimal, but make the optimal that short, they'll be gimped and no one will use them, which goes completely against the idea of the change.


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