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Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2009.10.07 21:58:00 - [1]
 

Disclaimer: I'm pretty sure that this has been asked with monotonous regularity, but I'd just like a few good opinions on the matter.

I have recently (after I saw the new Rattlesnake on Sisi, which requires Gallente BS and Caldari BS at a preferably high level for bonuses) as well as for other reasons (doing all those level Vs that I've put off) been wondering if it would be worth it to train all learning skills to level V, get the +5 implants in my learning clone in order to reduce the skill training times in the long term?

Training all to level V would take about 2 and a half months (less if I get the +5 implants first). Since training only two other current skills to V would take longer than that, I sort of figure it would be worth it in the long term (1 year or so).

So, is it worth it in the long run or just a true waste of time? Opinions please.

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2009.10.07 22:11:00 - [2]
 


Simple answer, if you plan to stick with eve for several years, its worth it.

Current estimates suggest it will take about 3 years to pay off, tho using optimal attribute remaps can probably reduce that payoff time conciderably.

Definately get the +5s first, as that will reduce the time needed to train them.

Chathe
Amarr
Posted - 2009.10.07 22:21:00 - [3]
 

depends on how long you play the game, and what skills you'll actually be training.

Eventually everything will pay off, the question is will you really play the game long enough to reach that point, will you really train that many int / will / cha skills ?

the pay offs for level 5's
basic level 5 - 161 days ( with the attribute as a primary of a skill being trained )
advanced level 5 - 323 days ( with the attribute as a primary of a skill being trained )
learning 5 - slideing scale 178 days ( 14/9 +15 ) ~ 975 days ( 5/5 +0 )
going from +4 to +5 implants - 266 days

Some folks will say it's worth it just because you train faster as you flop between skill plans in the game. My opinion I've trained int / per / will to +10 mem to +9 and cha to + 8

Kaylee Juuna
Posted - 2009.10.08 01:50:00 - [4]
 

All level 5 learning skills here.

Strange, I don't feel much smarter.

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2009.10.08 03:51:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Kaylee Juuna
All level 5 learning skills here.

Strange, I don't feel much smarter.


... but so much more satisfied. It's worth the pleasant *sigh* you get at the end :D

Kaylee Juuna
Posted - 2009.10.08 05:46:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Ravenal
Originally by: Kaylee Juuna
All level 5 learning skills here.

Strange, I don't feel much smarter.


... but so much more satisfied. It's worth the pleasant *sigh* you get at the end :D

One of the best sighs in my life.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.10.08 06:07:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 08/10/2009 06:32:03
There are advantages to learning skills to V. If you have an unplanned skill change or skill focus change or get new skills you can end the new skill plan days or weeks faster due to adv5's. For example the new expansion has caused me to create a new skill plan. This new skill plan will end weeks faster due to me having adv5's.

If you skill plan is static and planed out for years then learning skills are not worth it till 3 years pass.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.08 09:13:00 - [8]
 

Training an advanced learning skill has an opportunity cost of 632,235 SP. Paying that cost means you now train earn 1.1 SP more per minute as long as the skill affects the primary attribute of what you're training.

It therefore takes 574,759 minutes (399 days) worth of training skills with that particular primary attribute before you've earned back the time it took to train that single advanced learning skill — twice that (obviously) if the attribute is secondary.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2009.10.08 13:38:00 - [9]
 

Thanks, people. I must admit that waiting 3 years for them to pay themselves back is kind of wack. I think I'll go the easy route instead->+5 implants and the 4 easy skills at 4 days each. They others can kiss my big fat Brutor behind.

Metalcali
Posted - 2009.10.08 15:36:00 - [10]
 

I plan on finishing my Learning skills to level 5 starting this new year, and will take me 2 months. Of course my plans are for the long term and stay with EVE, but even so doing it sooner, after you get the skills to make a nice living for yourself and have fun with the game, the closer you are to paying it off. Since remapping as well, this can let you get some of those specific skills done all the more faster. Good choice to make, but better taken later on or as a dump skill should you take a vacation. Also, just think of the symmetry in having all V's haha.

RavenPaine
Posted - 2009.10.08 16:14:00 - [11]
 

Just remember that , the "payoff" doesnt come till AFTER you train them . So if you wait 2 years , then your payoff wont be till some 5 years down the road. When you look back at it , its going to get down to , "how many years of optimal training did I miss ?"

If you stick to skillplans and re-map plans , you should consider training the main 2 in that plan , or at least have the main 2 ready for your next re-map .

Yarinor
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.08 18:21:00 - [12]
 

People also need to considder 1 thing, you'll never get drone training, so it's not like in wow where you can go "oh, I'm lvl <insert max level here> i'm finally done".

In eve it's like "yay i can use the next new ship/mod, what and i going for next", so getting those learnings to lvl V will make you happy more often

dalman
TunDraGon
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.10.08 22:54:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: RavenPaine
Just remember that , the "payoff" doesnt come till AFTER you train them . So if you wait 2 years , then your payoff wont be till some 5 years down the road. When you look back at it , its going to get down to , "how many years of optimal training did I miss ?"

This.

Why ppl insist on talking about break even is beyond me, as surely if you spend years "gimped" you'll have to spend years "on top" before you can consider yourself even.

Additionally, the initial time you spend "gimped" is much more critical as you really lack "proper" skills at that time. As Potsey said, there might be changes to the game that partly make up for this, but hardly all the way.

I'd seriously say that training all learning skills to 5 doesn't pay off until after 7-8 years or something in terms of utility (unless you really care about the e-peen status of having lots of SP - but then you're a bit late to start now...).

Having played since launch, I've only trained one of the advanced skills to 5 and I'm happy with that (although I've reached a point where I wish I'd done a second advanced to 5).

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.10.09 06:14:00 - [14]
 

Yarinor said "People also need to considder 1 thing, you'll never get drone training, so it's not like in wow where you can go "oh, I'm lvl <insert max level here> i'm finally done"."
You can get done training, I have at least for now. You can hit max level in everything you do like me and end up with no useful skills to train. Then say I am done training there is nothing else I need.
I know at low SP level it sometimes feels like you never get done training but believe me at high SP levels' you can run out of things you want or need.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.10.09 18:04:00 - [15]
 

Never bothered to get my learning skills above 4/4, and frankly I do not feel gimped. Also, I've never bothered to plug in anything higher than +3s... I don't even have Cybernetics IV.

Because I took the "easy" route, however, I was able to get into exploration (and later ninjasalvaging) which was very fun and is the basis of my playtime today.. I'm certainly not lacking in SP, despite not maxing learning like others.

Unless you really have nothing else you want to train, I'd not bother training above IV.


Schmexy Wexy
Posted - 2009.10.10 05:51:00 - [16]
 

I trained them all up when I was new, all to 5 except for advanced charisma.

I regret it now that I'm old enough that they have paid for themselves.

When my character was younger, I was impatient because I had so many needs and wants. Now that my character is older, I have no needs and few wants. Now I'd rather have 2m SP in learning (5/4), instead of 5m SP (5/5) there - just for cheaper clones.

Kaylee Juuna
Posted - 2009.10.10 08:19:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Kaylee Juuna on 10/10/2009 08:18:51
Another good reason why I trained all learning skills to V early in my character's life was I don't like being behind and staying there.

Right now, a person who went straight to training normal skills is ahead of me. In a few years (yeah, long pay-off) I'll be ahead of them.

Keith Joscelyne
Posted - 2009.10.10 10:07:00 - [18]
 

im 20 days from fininshing my last 2 learnign skills to 5, i decided to do them why i wounder were i wish to go with eve.

IMO its only worthing trainign them to 5, if your training prereqs for a skill obviuosly you cant inject the skill and que it, so que your training skills and gradually get them to 5?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.10 11:21:00 - [19]
 

When should I train advanced Learnings to V

1: When I'm creating a character for sale and I believe it will enhance the sale value. People will pay extra for "perfect learnings".

2: I heard about EvE and want to create a character, but I'm going to be really busy doing exams/looking after new baby/lots of overtime/sexing up new girlfriend for the next 3 months

3: I gain personal satisfaction from maximising my character over and above the tangible gains that maxed out stats bring.

4: I am extremely indecisive and will constantly change my skillplan to radically different skillgroups, but at the same time I am disciplined enough to spend 3 months on advanced learnings.

5: I really dont know what to train and the only guy I trust to give me a good answer is away from EvE for a couple of weeks.

6: I am going to spend a whole year training skills with the same primary stat. Eg: I have just respecced to PERC 15 Will 9; it's probably worth training Clarity V at the start of the skillplan if I have not already done so.

Jerera
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.10 13:51:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
3: I gain personal satisfaction from maximising my character over and above the tangible gains that maxed out stats bring.


/thread

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2009.10.10 16:26:00 - [21]
 

Even though I was the one who first calculated how long the "payoff" is on the learning skills, this was never how I looked at the situation. The way I see it, the payoff is immediate. Once all my learning skills were maxed out, I could immediately train faster. While someone who hadn't trained all the learning skills to level 5 would undoubtedly be further ahead in more useful skills, I could not train everything faster. Instead of waiting 15 days for a skill, it was now 14 days. Being able to train quickly meant more to me than having trained a couple month's worth of useful skills. When new skills were released, I had a distinct advantage because I could train them up faster than someone who hadn't maxed out their learning skills.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.10 19:28:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Malcanis on 10/10/2009 19:34:04
Originally by: Tripoli
Even though I was the one who first calculated how long the "payoff" is on the learning skills, this was never how I looked at the situation. The way I see it, the payoff is immediate. Once all my learning skills were maxed out, I could immediately train faster. While someone who hadn't trained all the learning skills to level 5 would undoubtedly be further ahead in more useful skills, I could not train everything faster. Instead of waiting 15 days for a skill, it was now 14 days. Being able to train quickly meant more to me than having trained a couple month's worth of useful skills. When new skills were released, I had a distinct advantage because I could train them up faster than someone who hadn't maxed out their learning skills.


The point being that by the time you both had around (for instance) 8M SP, he had, say, 6.5M SP in skills to do stuff while you only had 3M. That's a pretty big relative skill advantage. By the time you overtook him in usable skills, the extra SP werent really that much of an advantage. By the time you pulled ahead in non-learning SP, you had something like 45-50M SP. By that stage, who really cares if your third battleship V takes 28.5 days or 30.1 days?

So yes in the long run, perfect learnings indisputably pay a profit, but by the time they do, you shouldn't really care. It's like putting your allowance in to a 15 year high interest fund at age 6. Sure, when you're 21, you'll have gotten a lot of increase in your $5. You probably have $25 now. Maybe even $30! But $25 at age 21 means a hell of a lot less than $5 does when you're 6.

So yes, you trained 5/5 because of reason 3.

EDIT: In fact being who you are, I dont see how you could reasonably deny it.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.10.10 19:54:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 10/10/2009 20:24:49
Malcanis said "The point being that by the time you both had around (for instance) 8M SP, he had, say, 6.5M SP in skills to do stuff while you only had 3M."
Although that's true you're missing that often you can end up with less SP outside of learning but week's worth of useful skills that the 6.5m hasn't got yet.

For example what if both players found a new path they wanted to go down 6months into the game after trying different things. The person with learning skills would end up weeks further along the skill plan. You might only have 3mill compared to 6.5mill of the other person but you have week's worth of more skills in your current role due to learning 5's.

Then you have things like game balances like what's coming the expansion. Those with learnings 5 will adapt to those game balances weeks sometimes months faster than those without learning 5.

Why do you always deny the large advantages adv5 learning skills can give you? Do you not see how finishing skill plans weeks or months faster is an advantage of some sorts? If you want to try something new doing it weeks or months faster is a worth while advantage.



Malcanis said " So yes in the long run, perfect learnings indisputably pay a profit,"
It also indisputably sometimes pays a profit in the short term as well. I got a profit after 6months. I might not have hit payoff but I was in profit in that my skillplan was about weeks further along.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.10.10 20:36:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 11/10/2009 07:59:17
EDIT: I made a mistake in the math. This post was wrong so I removed it and wrote a new part

Here is a better example of the worth of adv5 skills. My skill plan based around the new faction ships takes 295days with adv5. But with adv4 it takes 314days. Just under 1 years training and I end the skillplan 19days sooner. Plus I spend almost 1 year being ahead at that skill plan.

Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Spikes Chop Shop
Posted - 2009.10.10 20:55:00 - [25]
 

*Jagga Spikes walks by, glances a look at the dead horse and gathered crowd, then moves on.*

Ariel Dawn
Posted - 2009.10.11 19:36:00 - [26]
 

Seems that the optimal/practical thing would be to 5 the appropriate learning skill (Rank 3 ones) when you remap. If you remap to Perc/Will, 5 Focus, and when you remap Int/Mem, 5 the Int skill. Outside of those situations, you'd probably run out of useful stuff to train before you'd take advantage of maxing Cha/Will/Mem.

This is goin off of having all the Rank 1s maxed from back when they were required @ 5 for Rank 3 learning skills.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.11 20:35:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 10/10/2009 20:24:49
Malcanis said "The point being that by the time you both had around (for instance) 8M SP, he had, say, 6.5M SP in skills to do stuff while you only had 3M."
Although that's true you're missing that often you can end up with less SP outside of learning but week's worth of useful skills that the 6.5m hasn't got yet.

For example what if both players found a new path they wanted to go down 6months into the game after trying different things. The person with learning skills would end up weeks further along the skill plan. You might only have 3mill compared to 6.5mill of the other person but you have week's worth of more skills in your current role due to learning 5's.

Then you have things like game balances like what's coming the expansion. Those with learnings 5 will adapt to those game balances weeks sometimes months faster than those without learning 5.

Why do you always deny the large advantages adv5 learning skills can give you? Do you not see how finishing skill plans weeks or months faster is an advantage of some sorts? If you want to try something new doing it weeks or months faster is a worth while advantage.



Malcanis said " So yes in the long run, perfect learnings indisputably pay a profit,"
It also indisputably sometimes pays a profit in the short term as well. I got a profit after 6months. I might not have hit payoff but I was in profit in that my skillplan was about weeks further along.



Originally by: Malcanis

4: I am extremely indecisive and will constantly change my skillplan to radically different skillgroups, but at the same time I am disciplined enough to spend 3 months on advanced learnings.


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.11 20:41:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
Thanks, people. I must admit that waiting 3 years for them to pay themselves back is kind of wack. I think I'll go the easy route instead->+5 implants and the 4 easy skills at 4 days each. They others can kiss my big fat Brutor behind.


Note that you can tilt the odds in your favour somewhat. Perception skills are by far the biggest group for most pilots; certainly for combat pilots. You could train Clarity to V and leave the rest at 4. That would even help some when you are training drone skills, which you will certainly want if you're aiming for a Rattlesnake.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2009.10.12 06:10:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 12/10/2009 06:14:08
Malcanis said "4: I am extremely indecisive and will constantly change my skillplan to radically different skillgroups, but at the same time I am disciplined enough to spend 3 months on advanced learnings."
You don't need to be extremely indecisive or to constantly change skill plans. I will have changed my skill plan once or twice in one year by the end of this year and due to a game balance will save 17 to 21days on that skill plan. Changing skill plans once in that timeframe is not indecisive or constantly changing skill plans.

It's more like 4b: I want to be adaptive and have more fun. I want to be better at my current in game roles and better at my current ship focus. I want to be able to have fun by doing things I would not be able to do yet without adv5 or not be able to do as well if I had adv4 or less.

You are putting a way over negative stance on the way you describe adv5 skills.

Sharanna
Posted - 2009.10.12 18:43:00 - [30]
 

I once heard that there are more grains of sand in all the beaches in the world than there are possible level V skills ... or was that games of chess? Either way, it has absolutely nothing to do with the OP. Nevermind.


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