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Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:04:00 - [241]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 07/10/2009 13:09:59
Originally by: Heroldyn
Originally by: Tippia
Also, I thought your point was that..
no that was a statement i used to lead towards my point.
you are free to pick my posts apart but then dont try to decide what my point are. lol.
Then you should be clearer about what the point is and place your colon where it belongs… Wink

And, as mentioned, your point falls flat since manufacturing isn't PvE.
Quote:
manufacturing requires low end minerals. they are collected through mission running (and highsec mining).
That doesn't make manufacturing PvE. By that logic, PvP is PvE because it requires ships that are created through the (supposedly) PvE activity of manufacturing. ugh

At best, it only further demonstrates how much non-competitive activities such as mission running screw over the competitive ones, such as mining.

Coch Draig
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:08:00 - [242]
 

Who gives a **** tbh. There will always be a divide between PVPr's and carebears, and not all carebears are true carebears and some have a PVP alt or something. Look at RvB for example, i bet 80-90% of the characters are alts from all trades of eve which kinda goes against the argument that not all carebears are needed/wanted when everyone in a project like that can get along, blow each other up and smile about it.

Unfortunately peeps like the OP are single minded and do not want to open the box to expand a bit more in what this game offers. I pity you lot, you all want to rage quit but hang around like some cancer. I suggest you play a MMO more to your expectations and mentality.

Heroldyn
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:08:00 - [243]
 

Edited by: Heroldyn on 07/10/2009 13:14:08
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Heroldyn
Originally by: Tippia
Also, I thought your point was that..
no that was a statement i used to lead towards my point.
you are free to pick my posts apart but then dont try to decide what my point are. lol.
Then you should be clearer about what the point is and place your colon where it belongs… Wink

And, as mentioned, your point falls flat since manufacturing isn't PvE.


my colon belongs wherever i put it. ^^ if you decide not to regard the last sentence from my post, then it is not my fault.

as to your argument: again-> 'pvp manufacturing' requires 'pve mission running & mining' for the low end minerals. the less people do mission running & mining, the less low end minerals are available for manufacturing, the less minerals available for manufacuring, the less supply of ships & modules is available, the lower the supply, the higher the prices.

Quote:

That doesn't make manufacturing PvE. By that logic, PvP is PvE because it requires ships that are created through the (supposedly) PvE activity of manufacturing. ugh


i am not saying that. i am saying it will make things more expensive which you denied. the discussion has never been wether or not manufacturing is PvE or PvP.

Corwain
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:12:00 - [244]
 

This isn't even a PvPers thread, it's an elitist "0.0 alliances are the only way to play EVE" thread. Note how he says that anyone PvPing in losec are "scavengers" and "not real PvPers"

Well **** 0.0 alliances and the corrupt CEOs who run them. **** alarm clock ops and alliance leaders telling you if you don't skip school or take time off work to make the ops they're gonna boot you. **** alliance leaders taking all the ISK then putting it in their own wallet instead of the alliance or corp wallets. 0.0 alliances suck balls.

I actually have a girlfriend, a job, and real life friends. I can't commit to playing EVE 12 hours a day. I should still be able to play the damn game without *****es like you telling me I'm doing it wrong. I'll solo and small gang PvP and carebear if I want to when I run out of ISK.

Rejoin AGONY and have fun patting each other on your elitist asses every time you hotdrop a pirate corp and laugh when their 5 BS gang don't stay and fight your carriers+fleet.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:13:00 - [245]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 07/10/2009 13:14:18
Originally by: Heroldyn
as to your argument: again-> 'pvp manufacturing' requires 'pve mission running & mining' for the low end minerals. the less people do mission running & mining, the less low end minerals are available for manufacturing, the less minerals available for manufacuring, the less supply of ships & modules is available, the lower the supply, the higher the prices.
No PvE is required for low-end minerals — in fact, the mineral market would be vastly improved if the influx from PvE was removed.

Oh and…
Quote:
my colon belongs wherever i put it. ^^ if you decide not to regard the last sentence from my post, then it is not my fault.
If you put your point in a different paragraph from the one where you say "the point is this", then you're just begging for people to come and disregard it Razz

Shirley Serious
Amarr
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:13:00 - [246]
 

I think, it's possible (in theory) to be able to obtain a navy issue battleship, and fittings for it, with the only major effect on other players being use of manufacturing facilities.

Skillbooks, you buy from npcs.
Implants, from LP store and missions.
Navy modules, you can get prebuilt from LP store, using loot and tags from missions. (Navy module blueprints use some components that are used in t2 bps too, afaik, so you cant use those as part of this example)
Navy ships, you can get the blueprints from LP stores, and build using refined mission loot.
Rigs, and whatever t1 modules you can't get from loot, you can buy the blueprints from npcs, and build using mission loot. (if you don't research them, there's no effect on other people)

Which means, that, other than the manufacturing slot being occupied, what effect are you having on other players?

There's the thing about being a ship in space, and being a potential target for suicide attacks, and also about mission probing, but that could happen to everyone.

See, I don't think this situation should exist. I really don't see why even in theory, this should be possible.

These sorts of mechanics do not promote interacting with other people. It promotes the "I'm doing my thing in peace" mentality which ends up with people wanting game mechanics to allow them to "do their thing in peace".

Heroldyn
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:17:00 - [247]
 

Originally by: Tippia
No PvE is required for low-end minerals — in fact, the mineral market would be vastly improved if the influx from PvE was removed.



sorry i dont get your post here. are you saying there is no pve required for low-end minerals ?

do you mean people should mine veldspar in 0.0 instead ?

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:19:00 - [248]
 

Originally by: kongking wang
Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte
your "example" doesn't fit your logic.

following your logic, you'd join the army & "grind" for your gear without actually training the usage. when you get deployed you might have the shiniest and biggest weapons available, but your experience in using it is actually 0. it's like being told to operate a radar, while you don't even know how to turn on your mobile phone Razz



my logic is sound.

i joined up, then i spent years in trg, learning how to use the weapons and vehicles and testing it different senarios. this is just like trg a skill to use a specific weapon or vehicle in eve then doing missions or friendly pvp against friends/collegues simulating fighting a foe. then when i go into actuall combat i have not only the skills but the gear and a general knowlage of what i have to do.
[...]
now tell me again my logic is flawed


it still is.

doing missions isn't anything close to "training" when it comes to PvP. things like target priority, scouting, EW and even piloting skills (transversal, keeping range/closing in) can hardly be trained by missions.

fighting corpmates might be a better choice. but then again - the used tactics are limited as likely is the ship choice. also you shouldn't underestimate the inexperience of your corpmates. unless they are doing PvP themselves on a regular basis you won't learn *that* much from them - doing pre-set 1v1 with pre-set conditions has not much to do with actual combat in EVE. and when they are doing PvP on a regular basis, why not join up with them?

the most difficult thing to learn in PvP is dealing with unpredictable situations. missions and fighting corpmates don't prepare you for this.

my point is: what you consider as preparation for PvP (SP, ships & modules) isn't actually being prepared.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:22:00 - [249]
 

Originally by: Heroldyn
sorry i dont get your post here. are you saying there is no pve required for low-end minerals ?

do you mean people should mine veldspar in 0.0 instead ?
Technically, I'm saying that mining is a competition over limited resources (granted, usually a very bland and boring competition, but still), and therefore PvP…

Drunk Driver
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:22:00 - [250]
 





Carebears cause global warming.




MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:23:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Originally by: kongking wang
Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte
your "example" doesn't fit your logic.

following your logic, you'd join the army & "grind" for your gear without actually training the usage. when you get deployed you might have the shiniest and biggest weapons available, but your experience in using it is actually 0. it's like being told to operate a radar, while you don't even know how to turn on your mobile phone Razz



my logic is sound.

i joined up, then i spent years in trg, learning how to use the weapons and vehicles and testing it different senarios. this is just like trg a skill to use a specific weapon or vehicle in eve then doing missions or friendly pvp against friends/collegues simulating fighting a foe. then when i go into actuall combat i have not only the skills but the gear and a general knowlage of what i have to do.
[...]
now tell me again my logic is flawed


it still is.

doing missions isn't anything close to "training" when it comes to PvP. things like target priority, scouting, EW and even piloting skills (transversal, keeping range/closing in) can hardly be trained by missions.

fighting corpmates might be a better choice. but then again - the used tactics are limited as likely is the ship choice. also you shouldn't underestimate the inexperience of your corpmates. unless they are doing PvP themselves on a regular basis you won't learn *that* much from them - doing pre-set 1v1 with pre-set conditions has not much to do with actual combat in EVE. and when they are doing PvP on a regular basis, why not join up with them?

the most difficult thing to learn in PvP is dealing with unpredictable situations. missions and fighting corpmates don't prepare you for this.

my point is: what you consider as preparation for PvP (SP, ships & modules) isn't actually being prepared.

And if someone decides not to join the army and instead decides to build the weapons, vehicles, clothes, etc, for the army how is this wrong? Not everyone must join the army. Not everyone is interested in combat experience. It's what makes Eve so unique. You do whatever the hell you fancy, not what Malcanis, Akita, or Tippia fancy.


Heroldyn
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:30:00 - [252]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Heroldyn
sorry i dont get your post here. are you saying there is no pve required for low-end minerals ?

do you mean people should mine veldspar in 0.0 instead ?
Technically, I'm saying that:: mining is a competition over limited resources: (granted, usually a very bland and boring competition:, but s:till), and therefore PvP…

:
ok so then are :we discussing that mission running is pve becaus:e it is not fought over limited resources ? and so then we just disagree on the influence of mission running into the mineral ::market ?

i will leave: it at this.

remind you, we::re are discussing about wether or not 'getting rid' of carebears would make things more expensive. you feel it would not be no:ticeable to which i disagree.

i hope you don't mind i place a few colons in random places. Very Happy

besides the pvp 'crowd' not even have a common oppinion wether or not more expensive stuff would be good or not. (propably depending on how big their corp/alliance is) :D



nafiy gnaw
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:36:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 07/10/2009 12:15:02
Originally by: DTson Gauur
So you're saying CCP should lose 80% of it's paying customers? Yeah right, like that is ever going to happen.

There's that 80% again… how do you arrive at that number?
Originally by: kongking wang
i see myself as a carebear out of nescesity rather than choice. first of if i have poor skills and isk what am i supposed to do.
Find a corp where what skills you have can be put to good use, and where your ISK might not be that much of a problem since they'll refund your losses, either because they'll be so small (because your skills don't allow you to fly anything expensive), or because your loss is an inevitable cost of doing business (aka tackling).
Quote:
just to loose it in a sensless pvp match im not skilled to be in.
The skill you're lacking is the one you can't train through your character sheet: ship combat. You'll want to train that skill now, when ship losses and clones are cheap and (should you get too eager) SP losses are minimal.

I made the mistake of waiting too long, and while my char sheet says I can fly every T1-T3 sub-BS class of ship in the game, I'm back to flying T1 frigates and cruisers, because those are the ships I — not my character — can actually fly.
Originally by: PostWithYourAlt
But then they are suddenly all applauding to the idea of removing Mission Runners from the game, - The one entity in the game that actually keeps the ship and module prices down.
Arguable. They may not contribute to cost increase due to demand — since they rarely have to buy new modules — but since they are rolling in cash and never lose their stuff, and could therefore pay a far higher price per item and not bat an eye.


Well, hell, I think 80% is a exaggerated number. Maybe its more accurate to say that more than 80% of people in EvE hates losing either their ship or their implants or both. However, according to EvE statistics 50% of subscribed accounts on EvE, NEVER leaves high-sec, ever.

Well amoungst them could be industrial/trade/mining alts of Pvpers or industrial/trader/alts but I think it is going to be a good 40% of people on EvE that are total, complete carebears that will just play EvE a WoW(PVE realm) way,

still, its quite a large chunk of players, that is. Of course, thats according to my definition of what is a carebear, someone who never leaves high-sec and play the game an totally isolated way, according to Rells, well, 80% is not a bad estimate, tbh.

-nafiy




Sizzle Anburn
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:56:00 - [254]
 

PVPing or not isn't what makes you a carebear. Carebearism is a state of mind.

Biggest carebears I know are found in 0.0 living off moongold, officer spawns, and ship insurance to fund their endless no "consequences for losing" pvp. Losing a ship has become so inconsequential that CCP might as well just respawn their ships for them.

Hardcore pvper's indeed.

Openseeker
Posted - 2009.10.07 14:03:00 - [255]
 

:scratches head:

One of the things that I found very interesting about EvE Online, is that it's patterned after many, many SciFi scenereos:

Far distant future, humanity has spread out into space. Empires are set up and grow, war develops between empires, etc.

In any society, you will have a "safe zone" where all your "carebears" live. Always. The goverment of any empire/kingdom/state, knows that in order to stay in power, they have to provide a "safe" area for their citizens to live in. So that infrastructure may work. Failure to do that results in:

People setting up a new state/rulers who promise to change things

or

They are wiped out.

Eve has just that. Hi Sec Empire. Of course you are safe here. You're suppose to be safe there. Well, realativly safe. You still have crime and war that can happen. But over all, you're suppose to be safe.
Low sec.....just like the old wild west of the US's 1800's. Little or no law enforcement at all. May not be safe here. Matter of fact, you stand a very good chance of getting killed. There are rewards there though, but you'll have to take risks to get them.
Null sec.....this is just like the seas were before we'd mapped everything......completely lawless, anything can happen, and the rewards can be beyond your dreams.....but so are the risks.

CCP successfully patterned each area of space, just as it should be. And guess what?

The real players are doing EXACTLY what real people did back then too!

Majority of the population remains where it's safe, to help continue infrastructure and build.
Less people out in the more wild, low law enforced places, because more people want to be safe. They might dream of a challenge, or huge rewards, but going after it may not be something they are up to or can do.

Turning all of Eve into a lawless place, where anyone can be shot at any time with no law enforcement at all, changes the game dramatically. It's no longer EvE.......it's now a space going Pirates Online. You completely change what is now the main story: bye bye empire. There is no empire. You have now all been magically transported to WH Space! Good luck!

Saying Carebears "ruin" Eve, Contribute nothing to the game, etc, etc, has to be the most warped thinking I've ever seen!
Just think about how different life would be if there had been no "safe" zones for people to live in. Enjoy that computer there? Everything that went into inventing it occured in a "safe" zone. Go back through all of history and you'll see time and time again, the majority of things that were invented, or industry that was produced was done so in "safe" zones. Not out in the middle of a war zone, or unexplored territory where you could be killed at any moment.
No, it happened because people were given the ability to sit back and think about things....instead of spending all the their time trying to survive.

So while the OP may think that Carebears "ruin" Eve, then I say simply this: Petition CCP.

Bet I know what their answer will be: "The game is working as intended........."

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.07 14:11:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Sizzle Anburn
PVPing or not isn't what makes you a carebear. Carebearism is a state of mind.

Biggest carebears I know are found in 0.0 living off moongold, officer spawns, and ship insurance to fund their endless no "consequences for losing" pvp. Losing a ship has become so inconsequential that CCP might as well just respawn their ships for them.

Hardcore pvper's indeed.

I have found that the biggest carebears in the game are the anti-carebears themselves. Everything they profess against they do in one form or another. They minimize risk almost to zero, yet whine when "carebears" do it. I agree it's a state of mind. And it's a state of mind that these "hardcore PVPers" themselves are in.


Aarin Wrath
Caldari
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.10.07 14:16:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Carebears are not welcome in this game. I think it's time CCP dropped their subscriptions from Eve. Hardcore PVPers do NOT need carebears, period. This game would only improve without their presence. If you cannot understand this simple concept it is because you're an idiot and you're part of the problem.

Carebears are nothing but parasites that suck the life out of games. Then they move on to the next game. They do nothing but whine and ask for security from the developers. CCP needs to realize that this game is slowly dying because of the damage these parasites are causing. Please help me start a thread on this in the Assembly Hall asking CSMs to bring this issue up to CCP. If this game is to move forward then we will need to get rid of the carebears.

I know there is already a most avid anti-carebear movement group on board with me and I've taken the liberty to sign their names to this request below.

Malcanis
Akita T
DigitalCommunist
Le Skunk
Rells

If we do not do anything about this unfortunate vermin that has attached itself into Eve we risk losing the great minds above. Please help support the cause. We need to get rid of the carebears.

Thank you



Lol awesome. Laughing

Rells should have just said the above quote instead of trying to hide it in the original drivel laden post. Rolling Eyes

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.07 14:18:00 - [258]
 

Yarr! YARRRR!!


Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.10.07 14:22:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2

And if someone decides not to join the army and instead decides to build the weapons, vehicles, clothes, etc, for the army how is this wrong? Not everyone must join the army. Not everyone is interested in combat experience. It's what makes Eve so unique. You do whatever the hell you fancy, not what Malcanis, Akita, or Tippia fancy.



don't mistake industrialists for carebears Wink

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.07 14:38:00 - [260]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 07/10/2009 15:02:13

"Carebears" (the non-offensive form) for the most part ARE industrialists or merchants. They buy. They sell. They build. About the only thing they mostly don't do is destroy. That's the job of the PVPer.

But the important point is that carebears are the disease and permabans are the cure. CCP MUST CURE EVE from this wretched disease called CAREBEARS! Can I get an Amen?

They are the reason I am always broke.
They are the reason there are no targets in low sec.
They are the reason there is smack in local.
They are the reason there is nothing fun to do in Eve.
They are the reason factions mods are so expensive.
They are the reason Tech 2 is so cheap.
They are the reason ores suck.
They are the reason blobs exists.
They are the reason the forums are full of whines.
They are the reason the children of Earth are starving.
They are the reason for world famine.
They are the reason the world economy collapsed.

The list just goes on and on!

Carebeas are the anti-Christ!


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 15:01:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Heroldyn
remind you, we::re are discussing about wether or not 'getting rid' of carebears would make things more expensive. you feel it would not be no:ticeable to which i disagree.
More or less, yes. The thing is, considering the (over)production capacity we have in EVE, and the changes they've recently made to mining — at least to Veldspar — and in particular considering the effects of Unholy Rage, I feel that the carebear element is, by and large, unnecessary. If they were all gone tomorrow (kind of how they nuked 18k accounts in one fell swoop), other parties would take over their business and do the same thing, only with a different mindset.

That's the whole issue: carebears, by their very nature, wants to mechanically remove the impact other players can have on them, because those other players are popping their personal bubble and intruding on their personal game. Non-carebears even when doing the exact same activity couldn't care less. In fact, some of them (like me) want more intrusion and bubble-popping mechanics (and/or less of the restricting mechanics that are already in place), because that creates a more dynamic game and makes EVE a unique experience rather than just another reskinned WoW. They understand that their activities — and the activities of others — have far-reaching consequences, and they love this fact.

The reason carebears are bad for EVE is because they don't want to play EVE and try to steer the game away from every thing that makes it unique and exciting.
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
"Carebears" (the non-offensive form) for the most part ARE industrialists or merchants. They buy. They sell. They build. About the only thing they mostly don't do is destroy. That's the job of the PVPer.
…except that few things are as competitive — i.e. as much PvP — as the market and industry. Yes, you can be a carebear and sell stuff, and be a carebear and manufacture stuff, but unless you make it about beating the other guy, you're not really contributing to anything useful. The carebear refuses to understand this competitive aspect and then gets all flustered when someone comes around to take them out of the running.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.07 15:11:00 - [262]
 

Tippia,

A PVPer that only goes about PVPing and only PVPing is not contributing anything useful to the game as well. PURE PVP, as in the destruction of goods, increases inflation since there are less goods and same amount of isk. Yet, I don't see you whining about them. In fact, I'm pretty sure they don't care they don't contribute anything useful. I'm pretty sure they destroy because it's what they WANT to do and because that's what's fun to them. In other words, let the carebears do their jobs and let the PVPers do theirs. If there's an imbalance somewhere let CCP fix it, FFS. Stop trying to create a problem that doesn't exist.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 15:18:00 - [263]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
A PVPer that only goes about PVPing and only PVPing is not contributing anything useful to the game as well. PURE PVP, as in the destruction of goods, increases inflation since there are less goods and same amount of isk.
By "pure PvP", by which I assume you actually mean "combat" (since pure PvP is in a lot more places than that), contributes by creating demand and adding ISK to the game, actually, both of which keeps the market flowing.

The reason I whine about carebears is because they want to stop this. What they don't understand is that by doing so, they kill the market. By killing the market, they remove the driving mechanic of game, thus killing EVE dead and taking themselves with it. That is the problem.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.07 15:18:00 - [264]
 

Originally by: Tippia
The reason carebears are bad for EVE is because they don't want to play EVE and try to steer the game away from every thing that makes it unique and exciting.

...sigh...
Originally by: Tippia
The reason carebears are bad for EVE is because they don't want to play EVE the way I want them to play it and try to steer the game away from what I think is every thing that makes it unique and exciting.

Had to fix this quote a bit.


Sinistro
Posted - 2009.10.07 15:28:00 - [265]
 

You JUST dont shoot industrial characters, everything we lose will be calculated in the prices from everything you buy.


THIS.


As we industrials are to busy building, researching and invention all that you guys need to pvp with.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.07 15:31:00 - [266]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 07/10/2009 15:42:02
Originally by: Tippia
By "pure PvP", by which I assume you actually mean "combat" (since pure PvP is in a lot more places than that), contributes by creating demand and adding ISK to the game, actually, both of which keeps the market flowing.

What? I don't think you're understanding here. Demand does NOT fix inflation.
When a PVPer destroys a ship the isk that was used to purchase that ship is still in the Eve universe. The ship isn't. As a consequence there is the same amount of isk for less products to account for it. Hence, inflation.

Quote:
The reason I whine about carebears is because they want to stop this. What they don't understand is that by doing so, they kill the market. By killing the market, they remove the driving mechanic of game, thus killing EVE dead and taking themselves with it. That is the problem.
The only thing carebears want stopped is the incessant whines from hardcore PVPers meddling about what it is they decide to do with their time. Again, let the PVPers do what they want (you already do) and let the carebears do what they want (this is where some of you have problems).

Otherwise, just petition carebears for harrassment or grief, or medical illness/disease, or whatever it is they're doing to you and Eve.
But for the love of anything that is holy to you please stop whining.


Veldya
Guristari Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2009.10.07 16:03:00 - [267]
 

lol what a deluded and egotistical post from someone with delusions of self-importance.

Players just adjust to whatever works in-game, in any game. People find their niche.

EVE is a sandbox, ultimately, the sandbox has vast limitations to it. It is less a sandbox and more a bucket of sand. We don't have the full depth of control because we lack the tools to do so.

Empire exists largely because the game is poorly designed where there are no consequences for the things you do. We have the illusion of a law system but known pirates are allowed to roam free, the system is just far too disposable, it is very easy to make disposable characters to scam, to grief, to steal, to ruin what others work to build.

It is far easier to destroy than it is to build and the game was designed by those more interested in destroying than building and the vast limitations of the game has funneled people into filling various niches.

If CONCORD and NPC corps vanished overnight there would be a destabilisation period as the playerbase adjusted, but eventually order would be restored, it would just be a different reality with people filling different niches, performing different roles in a different order and control structure.

The problem is, such feats are extremely difficult to do with primitive tools at your disposal. It is just far easier to profit from design and mechanic limitations.

Lets see all artificial barriers removed. No concord, no insurance, no price interference.

When you are paying 20m for a T1 frigate that you have to go to a player for insurance come back and let me know how good freedom of choice truly is.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2009.10.07 16:10:00 - [268]
 

Originally by: Foodpimp
Originally by: The Riddik
5 and a half pages of carebears flaming, yet there are very few of us out there that have been playing mmorpg online games for 20 odd years.

point is , OP speaks truth, but the reality is, 95% of the people that play these games are sheep in real life as well, and sheep dont pvp.

but to those that do embrace the pvp philosophy, i salute you.

Does military service count as PVP?
Eve online is a sandbox? I played in a big friggin sandbox. After that....being a sheep ain't so bad.

Beruit '82, '83, '84 USN Gunner... I hate sand. Sand and Camels...
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom
I wonder how long the EVE servers would stay up and how much staff CCP could keep employed if the carebears left EVE.
Indefinitely, and fewer than now, but still enough.

Cant find (and can't be arsed to look more) but there is a dev blog from some time ago - E-O became viable @ 50K subscribers. When Eve was pure pvp (no hi-sec/concord, etc.,) it topped out at 10K online @ once, and 30K subs...
Originally by: Tippia
Quote:
Without the carebears, EVE wouldn't exist.
How large a percentage do you really think they are?

If they're such a small percentage, nothing is going to change too much, is it?


I hate that CCP has introduced this idea that PVP consists of anything other than player vrs. player combat. Been gaming since my dad brought home one of the first ataris in our neighborhood and attached it to our huge assed console tv (look it up kids). Played MUDS when I wasn't deployed. So a little over 30 years playing.

PVP = Player combat. Anything else is bull**** and obfuscation.


What I've seen happening (amongst others & myself):

Start game - divide happens, 1 in 20 (30? 50?) immediately jump into combat (i.e. "pvp").

1 month into game: More splitting and so on indefinitely.

The longer a player (not toon) spends in game, the more likely they are to pvp (and no, I don't count the wet oatmeal idea that everything is pvp).

Most people will sooner or later get into combat, Agony U does a good job helping, but some people will never do it.

Nothing you can do about it, and until CCP says they can do with out whatever % of their income comes from the subs of the non-pvp crowd, they will stay.

What % do I think are "pure" carebears, not willing to ever engage in combat? 5% or less of the total player base (not toons). And I freely admit that its just a guess, because CCP (to the best of my knowledge) has never released this #.

The biggest question is:
How big is CCP's operating margin? 7%? Because thats the only thing that matters...

>its a game<

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 16:18:00 - [269]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
What? I don't think you're understanding here. Demand does NOT fix inflation.
I understand. I'm simply not talking about inflation because that's a separate issue.

I'm talking about supply and demand.
Quote:
When a PVPer destroys a ship the isk that was used to purchase that ship is still in the Eve universe. The ship isn't. As a consequence there is the same amount of isk for less products to account for it. Hence, inflation.
It's worse that that, actually: the ship that was destroyed is replaced by even more ISK, creating even more inflation. That's not a problem though, as long as it's balanced by the ISK sinks and item faucets at the other end.

What I'm saying is that a combat pilot that does nothing but engage in combat still contributes to the game because he creates demand for ships and a supply of ISK. In the best of worlds, this creation and removal of value would in and of itself be zero-sum (it's not, but that's because it's balanced against a ISK demand/item supply in other locations of the system). Thus, he helps ensure that the system keeps flowing.

Carebears, on the other hand, do not. They want supply without demand (or, rather, they want the things that create demand removed, which amounts to the same thing). Supply without demand means a completely stalled, completely crashed market and the end of EVE. You could possibly turn it into a completely different game — one where the demand is mechanically upheld by forcing the destruction of items (eg. a Raven explodes after having shot 100 NPC battleships), but I somehow think that the carebears wouldn't want that either… At any rate, it is no longer the player-driven game that we have today.

And yes, that is the game I want to play, and the game I want preserved — if I wanted a computer-driven game, there are bazillions of those around, and I can't help wondering how come the carebears can't choose one of those instead of ruining the unique one that isn't like them?
Quote:
The only thing carebears want stopped is the incessant whines from hardcore PVPers meddling about what it is they decide to do with their time.
What the carebears want stopped is the ability to create the afore mentioned demand with them as well. They consider this creation of demand as meddling, because they don't want to feel it — they just want to be supplied from the bling fairy. What they don't realise is that it is this very "meddling" that allows the bling fairy to exist.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2009.10.07 16:26:00 - [270]
 

Hail to the mission running care bear, who supplies me with my fed navy anti matter ammo!

Just remember those ice miners too. Give some love to the ice miners because w/o them and their high sec ice mining and 0.0 ice mining ways we would not have pos's and capital fuel.


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