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Zartanic
Posted - 2009.10.07 08:58:00 - [181]
 

WH's will have definitely attracted more to try PVP including myself. One day I want to do a one man operation and not learning PVP would be suicide. I'm enjoying PVP too, although I knew I would as I have in other games. But it took several weeks to find a corp that suited what I wanted to do (RvB) All other corps require, understandably, too much commitment with reduced flexibility in what I could do.

WH's are an example where a carrot is used to attract players to try something rather than a stick which will just lead to players trying another game.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2009.10.07 09:03:00 - [182]
 

For the person that said im an idiot for only playing eve for 30 minutes a day is probably right, I mean I do technically work 24/7 at my job and subject to going back to actual work at any time if deemed nessecary without overtime of course.

Hell when I took this job up the bill of rights or any other labor union rules no longer protects my rights and there are just so many outsiders that are entirely confused why I do what I do.

Some get angry, acidic, religous or zealous of the sorts and take what I do into personal crusades against or for, and those that take what I do up as a personal crusade are not doing it for my benifit, they're doing it to further their agenda as they dont know any better as well or even worse do know and dont give a damn.

As for me of why I dont go out and try to ruin peoples day because mine is already ruined by those assuming I already ruined thiers, and I dont belive in kicking the cat thoery.

Although I will leave this

Wolves starve when there are no more prey around.

Lindsay Logan
Posted - 2009.10.07 09:30:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Zartanic
Edited by: Zartanic on 07/10/2009 03:21:45

WOW is huge because it a very easy game to get into and you can play it at that easy level for years and have something to do. It also had hard content which appealed to some and content in between. There was hidden depth to the game so you could do high end content with study and practise, more complex in game mechanics than EVE for that matter. I spent a lot more time in WOW studying classes and mechanics than I've ever needed to do in EVE. The high end part has gone which is why many of us stopped. But you could have 7 year olds play the game and University Professors and they all got something from it.

In other words it not try and pander to a clique of players which the Op is trying to do. It was more of a sandbox as you didn't have any player pressure to play the way they want you to. That way will wreck the game for sure although I suspect some won't care about that too much, as long as they have players to gank and blob until someone puts the lights out. As long as they seriously think what they do is real PVP they will feel some sort of moral superiority. From a game that's kind of pathetic.

What CCP have done is make hi sec too attractive and forgotten to make nul sec less boring. It's that simple. Many will happily PVP but not if it means tedium. And for some of us Low and nul sec PVP is rarely true PVP at all. Its the style of PVP that's so out of date and old fashioned its laughable. No game in its right mind would follow the same model and the one that tried flopped fast.

Hopefully the expansion will go some way to fix all this. Until that's done all else is hot air.


You do not understand the concept of "sanbox game".

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.07 09:35:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Nova Fox
For the person that said im an idiot for only playing eve for 30 minutes a day is probably right, I mean I do technically work 24/7 at my job and subject to going back to actual work at any time if deemed nessecary without overtime of course.

Hell when I took this job up the bill of rights or any other labor union rules no longer protects my rights and there are just so many outsiders that are entirely confused why I do what I do.

Some get angry, acidic, religous or zealous of the sorts and take what I do into personal crusades against or for, and those that take what I do up as a personal crusade are not doing it for my benifit, they're doing it to further their agenda as they dont know any better as well or even worse do know and dont give a damn.

As for me of why I dont go out and try to ruin peoples day because mine is already ruined by those assuming I already ruined thiers, and I dont belive in kicking the cat thoery.

Although I will leave this

Wolves starve when there are no more prey around.


Now I am curious, what is it you actually do? :)

Xetal Maelstrom
Posted - 2009.10.07 09:53:00 - [185]
 

I wonder how long the EVE servers would stay up and how much staff CCP could keep employed if the carebears left EVE.

Sad fact of the game: Carebears subsidize the non-carebears. Much like how the general population subsidizes the medical costs of those who are unable to pay for themselves in my countries, or how those who make money subsidize those who are on welfare.

Without the carebears, EVE wouldn't exist.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 09:56:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom
I wonder how long the EVE servers would stay up and how much staff CCP could keep employed if the carebears left EVE.
Indefinitely, and fewer than now, but still enough.
Quote:
Without the carebears, EVE wouldn't exist.
How large a percentage do you really think they are?

GuntiNDDS
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:00:00 - [187]
 

PVPers do not need PVEers as much as PVEers dont need PVPers.

PVEers can also just run missions all day or mine ore without needing PVPers. They might not be able to sell as much ships and stuff to each other because they dont loose it as often, but its not like it would break their game if all PVPers suddenly quit.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:14:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: GuntiNDDS
PVEers can also just run missions all day or mine ore without needing PVPers. They might not be able to sell as much ships and stuff to each other because they dont loose it as often, but its not like it would break their game if all PVPers suddenly quit.
Yes it would, because without the driving factor that is PvP, the market would cease to exist. Without bulk buyers, the producers (which, btw, are not carebears, by and large) would quit. There would be no more T2. There would be no more complex/officer bling. There would be nothing.

The mission runners would only have the tutorial-arc and newbie mission arc ship rewards to fly in — hardly something that will do L4s in a hurry. Not that it matters, because their mission running would serve no purpose with the market gone.

GuntiNDDS
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:20:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: GuntiNDDS
PVEers can also just run missions all day or mine ore without needing PVPers. They might not be able to sell as much ships and stuff to each other because they dont loose it as often, but its not like it would break their game if all PVPers suddenly quit.
Yes it would, because without the driving factor that is PvP, the market would cease to exist. Without bulk buyers, the producers (which, btw, are not carebears, by and large) would quit. There would be no more T2. There would be no more complex/officer bling. There would be nothing.

The mission runners would only have the tutorial-arc and newbie mission arc ship rewards to fly in — hardly something that will do L4s in a hurry. Not that it matters, because their mission running would serve no purpose with the market gone.


thats bs.

the market would still go, just a bit slower. there would still be people producinng ships and modules. not as much, but there'd still be. some producers would possibly quit, other would change their play to go mission running or other activities.

you are just implying alot of pveers would quit if they would earn less from market sales. i do not believe this would be the case.

if either group of the two would suddenly disappear, the only effect would be that it would smaller their earnings. (pvpers would have less earnings from faction loot sales and sucide freighter gankings).

also: the market is not stale, it will adjust. things that are cheap right now can become expensive and wise versa- keep that in mind.

Xetal Maelstrom
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:22:00 - [190]
 

Quote:
Indefinitely, and fewer than now, but still enough.


Just like Shadowbane, Asheron's Call 2, Earth & Beyond, and the Matrix MMO have done so well with their small populations. Claim that everything would be just peachy all you want, but the truth is that smaller MMOs often don't last.

Quote:
How large a percentage do you really think they are?


Oh, it would be a total guess... but I would guess that maybe 80% of the population are empire players.

Cedric Allrian
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:25:00 - [191]
 

Edited by: Cedric Allrian on 07/10/2009 10:30:56
Edited by: Cedric Allrian on 07/10/2009 10:30:16
As to "Why Eve Carebears are Just Plain Wrong"

I am what you call carebear. I like what i am doing. Mostly it's missions, sometimes mining and production. When i get home from work i want to do something that gets me calm down and this kind of things is what it gets the job done. That's what i want from that game.

Sometimes i decide to do pvp and grep a ship and go to lowsec. But it seems that there are no so called pirates which are looking for a challenge. They just want a killmail, what i value as most useless thing. What is challenging if you fight 10v1? nothing^^. Or what is challenging if you kill a PvE ship? Nothing. I'll rather selfdistruct my ship before i leave them to these pro-PVPers.

But in opposite i respect the real PVPers which are really looking for a challenge. But that's how often? 1 out of 10, 15maybe?

I like to play Eve for playing WITH some people not against them (as said occasionally it's ok, IF you find guys which are looking for some challenge too)

So for me it's not just plain wrong to avoid PvP and be a carebear.

edit: grammar and spelling

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:38:00 - [192]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 07/10/2009 10:41:43
Originally by: GuntiNDDS
thats bs.

the market would still go, just a bit slower.
No, the market wouldn't exist, because the market is PvP.
Quote:
there would still be people producinng ships and modules.
People might build for themselves, and possibly to order, but without the bulk demand that is generated by PvP, it would just build up a huge unsellable stockpile if they kept doing it, so they would just stop… and most all large-scale industrialists are PvPers.
Quote:
some producers would possibly quit, other would change their play to go mission running or other activities.
Again, for what purpose? Why run missions when it doesn't lead anywhere? There's no bling to buy with all the precious ISK, after all. If you only want to shoot stuff (because that would the only point of those L1/L2 missions you'd be able to run), why not just get MAME and a good old Atari Star Wars ROM?
Quote:
you are just implying alot of pveers would quit if they would earn less from market sales.
No, I'm implying that there would be no earnings, because there would be no-one around to buy their stuff.
Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom
Just like Shadowbane, Asheron's Call 2, Earth & Beyond, and the Matrix MMO have done so well with their small populations. Claim that everything would be just peachy all you want, but the truth is that smaller MMOs often don't last.
Look at the growth pattern of EVE.
Quote:
Oh, it would be a total guess... but I would guess that maybe 80% of the population are empire players.
Empire players ≠ carebears. So again: how large a percentage do you think they are?

Xetal Maelstrom
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:43:00 - [193]
 

Quote:
Empire players ≠ carebears. So again: how large a percentage do you think they are?


Empire players are what many people would consider to be carebears... and if you scroll up a post I already gave you a percent.

Don't get me wrong, it isn't a bad thing that non-carebears are subsidized by carebear players. It's the way the game works, and it would be less of a game if that changed.

It just amuses me to see posts where the carebears cry about how PvP is so unfair or where non-carebears nerd-rage about how they're superior beings for not being carebears.

It's like someone on medicare, welfare checks, and foodstamps complaining about taxes. I simply appreciate the humor of the complaint and appreciate the irony of their claim that carebears are ruining EVE.

Avaleric
Amarr
SC Special Circumstances
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:43:00 - [194]
 

OPs assumptions are nonsense...

Esk Esme
Caldari
Smack Crack and Pot
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:47:00 - [195]
 

to the OP

each to they own when you start paying for ppl's sub's then dictate how the game should be played

didnt even bother finishing reading your post just thought it was full of crap ( and yes im a pvper ) i also carbare when i need to or if i feel like

freedom of choice if you dont like it go find a diffrent game maybe a FPS were its all PvP

EvE is by far the best game out there becouse of its diversaty
OMG cry more pls coz ppl dont play YOUR way like i said find a diff game if u dnt like it

BTW who's gona build your ships/ammo /stations and fancy t2 mods / ice for cap ships if nobody carbare's Rolling Eyes

my english sux's sue me

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:48:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom
Empire players are what many people would consider to be carebears... and if you scroll up a post I already gave you a percent.
Not really, no. You see, Empire is shock-full of PvP:ers money-making alts, of market PvP:ers, of industry PvP:ers, of (admittedly a tiny amount of) empire warriors/gankers/piebears… Oh, and since you said "empire", rather than "highsec", you also have the nasty ebil lowsec pirates, the lowsec POS researchers/manufacturers (which have to be PvP:ers by design).

So no, wildly guessing a population percentage for empire (which is silly to begin with since we have published figures to go by) doesn't come close to even potentially answering the question.

How large a percentage do you think are carebears?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:49:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Zartanic
WH's will have definitely attracted more to try PVP including myself. One day I want to do a one man operation and not learning PVP would be suicide. I'm enjoying PVP too, although I knew I would as I have in other games. But it took several weeks to find a corp that suited what I wanted to do (RvB) All other corps require, understandably, too much commitment with reduced flexibility in what I could do.

WH's are an example where a carrot is used to attract players to try something rather than a stick which will just lead to players trying another game.


I definitely agree that W-space was a great addition to the game. (Ofc it needed tweaking - you can make macro changes to a game as huge and complex as EvE and expect to got it right first try.)

GuntiNDDS
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:54:00 - [198]
 

again your incentives are wrong.

in one sentence you say the market is pvp, in the other sentence you say all producers are pveers. so what is a producer that sells his stuff on the market now ? pvp or pve ?
decide what you want to believe at last.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:57:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: GuntiNDDS
in one sentence you say the market is pvp, in the other sentence you say all producers are pveers.
No. Read it again.

Xetal Maelstrom
Posted - 2009.10.07 10:59:00 - [200]
 

Quote:
So no, wildly guessing a population percentage for empire (which is silly to begin with since we have published figures to go by) doesn't come close to even potentially answering the question.

How large a percentage do you think are carebears?


You asked how large a percentage I think are carebears. I answered it.

You ignored the answer and asked again. I pointed you to the first time I answered it.

You again have ignored the answer and asked again. I will again point you to the first time I answered it. Scroll up.

Asking the same question that has been repeatedly answered for you does not make you right, it just makes it seem like you have no reading comprehension.

Oh, and presenting a low redefinition logical fallacy to try to drive down the number to prove a point doesn't make you right either. I particularly like how you include "market PvPers" and "industry PvPers" in the non-carebear category.

I've answered your question. You've just turned into a broken record with a very obtuse message, and I really have nothing else to say to you.

Have a good day/evening (depending on where in the world you live), and enjoy your "Market PvP".

Esk Esme
Caldari
Smack Crack and Pot
Posted - 2009.10.07 11:00:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: GuntiNDDS
again your incentives are wrong.

in one sentence you say the market is pvp, in the other sentence you say all producers are pveers. so what is a producer that sells his stuff on the market now ? pvp or pve ?
decide what you want to believe at last.


well nerly anything you do in eve is pvp ppl v ppl

you try to get to that system for good rats b4 another person (pvp)
you sell stuff on market lower than another dude for fast sale or corner the market (pvp)
you put pos on moon b4 another allaince (pvp)
you get to your favorate mining belt b4 a rival miner (pvp)
you scan plex's and run them b4 any1 els finds them (pvp)
you blow up ship ( pvp)
and so on

my english sux sue me your veiw of PvP is narrow witch sux's also but mer

kongking wang
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.07 11:07:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte
your "example" doesn't fit your logic.

following your logic, you'd join the army & "grind" for your gear without actually training the usage. when you get deployed you might have the shiniest and biggest weapons available, but your experience in using it is actually 0. it's like being told to operate a radar, while you don't even know how to turn on your mobile phone Razz



my logic is sound.

i joined up, then i spent years in trg, learning how to use the weapons and vehicles and testing it different senarios. this is just like trg a skill to use a specific weapon or vehicle in eve then doing missions or friendly pvp against friends/collegues simulating fighting a foe. then when i go into actuall combat i have not only the skills but the gear and a general knowlage of what i have to do.

and if your going to lay your whole argument on that grind part dont bother. i did buy most my own gear. obviously minus the weapon and vehicles but everything else was mine. my own combination of what i felt suited not only the job but my enviroment. i knew this through planning and testing of various types of equiptment.

now tell me again my logic is flawed

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 11:13:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom
You asked how large a percentage I think are carebears. I answered it.

You ignored the answer and asked again. I pointed you to the first time I answered it.

You again have ignored the answer and asked again. I will again point you to the first time I answered it. Scroll up.

Asking the same question that has been repeatedly answered for you does not make you right, it just makes it seem like you have no reading comprehension.
The reason I keep asking the question is because I honestly can't believe that you believe that empire is only populated by carebears.
Quote:
Oh, and presenting a low redefinition logical fallacy to try to drive down the number to prove a point doesn't make you right either. I particularly like how you include "market PvPers" and "industry PvPers" in the non-carebear category.
The reason I do this is to demonstrate why your number makes no sense. A carebear is someone who shies away from any kind of PvP activity — who wants to be "left alone to do his thing" (which is patently impossible in such an interconnected game as EVE).

The market is probably the most vicious PvP this game has to offer, and industry is what feeds the vast 0.0 alliances so while it may not be right up there with ye olde rabit pirates, it's not far behind. Your claim is that carbears pay the bulk of the EVE subscriptions — I point out that there are numerous flaws to this assumption (in particular the whole PvPer's money-making alt/clone issue). If you want to dismiss these flaws, then I choose to dismiss your unfounded arsepull figure and ask you for one that you can actually back up with anything substantial.

The fact that you refuse to see the PvP aspect of every last activity in EVE (except mission running), I suspect, is the reason why you think there are so many carebears, and why you're probably wrong in thinking that.

000Hunter000
Gallente
Missiles 'R' Us
Posted - 2009.10.07 11:17:00 - [204]
 

Posting in an epic troll fail thread!!! Very Happy

Did u say ur account expires in november?

Can i have ur stuff then?

kongking wang
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.07 11:19:00 - [205]
 

Edited by: kongking wang on 07/10/2009 11:21:38
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom
Empire players are what many people would consider to be carebears... and if you scroll up a post I already gave you a percent.
Not really, no. You see, Empire is shock-full of PvP:ers money-making alts, of market PvP:ers, of industry PvP:ers, of (admittedly a tiny amount of) empire warriors/gankers/piebears… Oh, and since you said "empire", rather than "highsec", you also have the nasty ebil lowsec pirates, the lowsec POS researchers/manufacturers (which have to be PvP:ers by design).

So no, wildly guessing a population percentage for empire (which is silly to begin with since we have published figures to go by) doesn't come close to even potentially answering the question.

How large a percentage do you think are carebears?


umm and what would you have us call these so called pvp'er alts. "oh right carebears" they sit in high sec grinding isk so they can pvp. hey its the same as everyone else. you remove carebearism then pvp alts go too. why because they cannot gain isk easy to fund there pvp habits. this then has the knock on effect of unaffordable pvp. this results in eve failure all because pvp'ers want to rule the game were they can kill anyone at will. face the facts. carebares are here to stay. and many of those you call carebears are alts of pvpers

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 11:34:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: kongking wang
umm and what would you have us call these so called pvp'er alts. "oh right carebears" they sit in high sec grinding isk so they can pvp.
I'd call them PvPer alts. Their main purpose — in fact, their only purpose — is to feed the PvP. A character that is added to the game only to create more PvP doesn't particularly strike me as a carebear…
Quote:
you remove carebearism then pvp alts go too. why because they cannot gain isk easy to fund there pvp habits.
The problem here is that you confuse the activity with the person. No matter how you fund your habit, engaging in PvP makes you a PvP:er. If you could get away with not doing the money-grind and only PvP, chances are you would, because — after all — you're a PvP:er. Now, if you want to argue that sometimes, even PvPers just want to relax and shoot some hapless NPCs because it's zero-risk fun, then you might have a point, but as soon as you think of it as a means to feed a PvP habit, any carebear angle is blown out the airlock.
Quote:
in eve failure all because pvp'ers want to rule the game were they can kill anyone at will.
You already can. I suppose this mean the PvPers already rule…? Wink
Quote:
and many of those you call carebears are alts of pvpers
No. Quite the opposite: many of the ones the carebears want to add to their crowd in hopes of showing their numerical strength, are in fact PvPers who wouldn't mind at all if every last vestige of carebearism was removed from the game because then they could do what they want to do the most…

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.07 11:37:00 - [207]
 

Carebears are not welcome in this game. I think it's time CCP dropped their subscriptions from Eve. Hardcore PVPers do NOT need carebears, period. This game would only improve without their presence. If you cannot understand this simple concept it is because you're an idiot and you're part of the problem.

Carebears are nothing but parasites that suck the life out of games. Then they move on to the next game. They do nothing but whine and ask for security from the developers. CCP needs to realize that this game is slowly dying because of the damage these parasites are causing. Please help me start a thread on this in the Assembly Hall asking CSMs to bring this issue up to CCP. If this game is to move forward then we will need to get rid of the carebears.

I know there is already a most avid anti-carebear movement group on board with me and I've taken the liberty to sign their names to this request below.

Malcanis
Akita T
DigitalCommunist
Le Skunk
Rells

If we do not do anything about this unfortunate vermin that has attached itself into Eve we risk losing the great minds above. Please help support the cause. We need to get rid of the carebears.

Thank you


Gaborelle
Gallente
The Motley Crew Reborn
Warped Aggression
Posted - 2009.10.07 11:38:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Foodpimp
Navy...logistics. Got shot at but never got to shoot back. Fat lot of good years of hunting and government small arms training did me.


should have joined the airforce... then u could have got a chance to drop bombs on your allies :P

kongking wang
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.07 11:40:00 - [209]
 

ok TIPPIA lets hear it

tell us all exactly what you think would happon if you removed carebears from eve completely.

Dingo Skullcrusher
Posted - 2009.10.07 11:46:00 - [210]
 

Edited by: Dingo Skullcrusher on 07/10/2009 11:47:02
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Carebears are not welcome in this game. I think it's time CCP dropped their subscriptions from Eve. Hardcore PVPers do NOT need carebears, period. This game would only improve without their presence. If you cannot understand this simple concept it is because you're an idiot and you're part of the problem.

Carebears are nothing but parasites that suck the life out of games. Then they move on to the next game. They do nothing but whine and ask for security from the developers. CCP needs to realize that this game is slowly dying because of the damage these parasites are causing. Please help me start a thread on this in the Assembly Hall asking CSMs to bring this issue up to CCP. If this game is to move forward then we will need to get rid of the carebears.

I know there is already a most avid anti-carebear movement group on board with me and I've taken the liberty to sign their names to this request below.




lol @ some hardcore bear hatin'


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