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Zartanic
Posted - 2009.10.07 03:19:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 07/10/2009 03:21:45

WOW is huge because it a very easy game to get into and you can play it at that easy level for years and have something to do. It also had hard content which appealed to some and content in between. There was hidden depth to the game so you could do high end content with study and practise, more complex in game mechanics than EVE for that matter. I spent a lot more time in WOW studying classes and mechanics than I've ever needed to do in EVE. The high end part has gone which is why many of us stopped. But you could have 7 year olds play the game and University Professors and they all got something from it.

In other words it not try and pander to a clique of players which the Op is trying to do. It was more of a sandbox as you didn't have any player pressure to play the way they want you to. That way will wreck the game for sure although I suspect some won't care about that too much, as long as they have players to gank and blob until someone puts the lights out. As long as they seriously think what they do is real PVP they will feel some sort of moral superiority. From a game that's kind of pathetic.

What CCP have done is make hi sec too attractive and forgotten to make nul sec less boring. It's that simple. Many will happily PVP but not if it means tedium. And for some of us Low and nul sec PVP is rarely true PVP at all. Its the style of PVP that's so out of date and old fashioned its laughable. No game in its right mind would follow the same model and the one that tried flopped fast.

Hopefully the expansion will go some way to fix all this. Until that's done all else is hot air.

kongking wang
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.07 03:34:00 - [152]
 

OMG LOLS...

i have been in many so called carebear corps and 1 thing commonly on the agender was pvp. most had a small pvp base of long time players but for us so call noobs the thought of pvp was daunting not because we may die but because pvp is unpredictable and can be expensive. so what do we do. we carebear a bit longer to fill our pockets so that 1 day we can go into low sec and fight and loose all the ships we want. chances are we loose more than those hardcore long term pvpers but thats life.

and when we run out of money we carebear some more. what does a primary pvper do when he runs out of money. i will stick to my diverse lifestyle of mining/maufacturing/missions/ratting etc.oh wait what that you say. you do that too. so ur a carebear when you want to be. pvp is just 1 tiny little piece of eve and being so nieve to say that the whole game should be pvp is just stupid on your behalf. this game is overflowing with content which keeps everyone occupied.

if your not happy then you should consider quitting eve joining the army. i hear they do lots of pvp these days and i tell you 1 thing. the taliban aint carebears

MyFingID
Posted - 2009.10.07 03:46:00 - [153]
 

Was going to post a TLDR but then I read. I agree with increasing 0.0 rewards and taking NPC vendors out of the game. The problem is balancing mining with the economy. If you flood the market with with ore and can't use it fast enough, the miners will make less and then there's a problem. Really though nothing sells for more than what people are willing to pay for it, and that's what it's worth. As for missions, gotta have PvE. I think the real problem you're having is that PvP isn't a real money maker, but it shouldn't be. Really PvP should be to secure the area for the miners/PvErs in 0.0 so they can make the money and pay your bills. This game is about taking territory, holding it, and using it. I think that's what makes it so interesting, the player politics. That's why this game is still around IMO, it combines crafting, pve, and pvp in such a way that it seems really open ended and is more of a life in space sim than an MMO.

Foodpimp
Gallente
Heaven's Harvesters
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
Posted - 2009.10.07 03:50:00 - [154]
 

Rells....

I'm a finance guy IRL...so this game to me is fun from the economic/industry point of view (I am a super carebear). I like combat in small doses (no...I'm not very good, but who cares...just build a new ship). Believe it or not, there are a lot of people that enjoy that type of thing. For you to say that you're method of play is better than a non-combatant player is as bad as the carebear whining about Nonconsentual combat. That being said....AGAIN....ccp is running a business....they don't care if the pvp doesn't like it as long as you keep paying. If you polarize the game to pure pvp or pure carebearishness....they lose money. Why is this such a difficult concept for people to grasp. Guys like you think that it's some idealistic thing goin on here. Get with the program sport....and welcome to freemarkets and capitalism. Now make me a pot pie beeyotch!.

The Riddik
Posted - 2009.10.07 03:59:00 - [155]
 

5 and a half pages of carebears flaming, yet there are very few of us out there that have been playing mmorpg online games for 20 odd years.

point is , OP speaks truth, but the reality is, 95% of the people that play these games are sheep in real life as well, and sheep dont pvp.

but to those that do embrace the pvp philosophy, i salute you.

The Dread Lord Den of Earth, KOC forever, Pre-trammel Ultima Online


Foodpimp
Gallente
Heaven's Harvesters
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
Posted - 2009.10.07 04:04:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: The Riddik
5 and a half pages of carebears flaming, yet there are very few of us out there that have been playing mmorpg online games for 20 odd years.

point is , OP speaks truth, but the reality is, 95% of the people that play these games are sheep in real life as well, and sheep dont pvp.

but to those that do embrace the pvp philosophy, i salute you.

The Dread Lord Den of Earth, KOC forever, Pre-trammel Ultima Online




Does military service count as PVP?

Eve online is a sandbox? I played in a big friggin sandbox. After that....being a sheep ain't so bad.

MyFingID
Posted - 2009.10.07 04:12:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Foodpimp
Originally by: The Riddik
5 and a half pages of carebears flaming, yet there are very few of us out there that have been playing mmorpg online games for 20 odd years.

point is , OP speaks truth, but the reality is, 95% of the people that play these games are sheep in real life as well, and sheep dont pvp.

but to those that do embrace the pvp philosophy, i salute you.

The Dread Lord Den of Earth, KOC forever, Pre-trammel Ultima Online




Does military service count as PVP?

Eve online is a sandbox? I played in a big friggin sandbox. After that....being a sheep ain't so bad.


Exactly and just like PvP in EvE it doesn't pay well! What branch out of curiosity? I was Army Infantry, but got the 'privilege' of working the Brigade S-4 when I went to Iraq. Like joining the team and being told you're sitting on the sidelines when game day comes Rolling Eyes

kongking wang
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.07 04:14:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Foodpimp
Originally by: The Riddik
5 and a half pages of carebears flaming, yet there are very few of us out there that have been playing mmorpg online games for 20 odd years.

point is , OP speaks truth, but the reality is, 95% of the people that play these games are sheep in real life as well, and sheep dont pvp.

but to those that do embrace the pvp philosophy, i salute you.

The Dread Lord Den of Earth, KOC forever, Pre-trammel Ultima Online




Does military service count as PVP?

Eve online is a sandbox? I played in a big friggin sandbox. After that....being a sheep ain't so bad.


i myself am playing the sheep after my own element of RL pvp. doesnt mean i wont go bk to it but with everything there is a time and a place and expecting everyone in eve to be at your time and in your place is stupid.

pvp is the natural evolution from carebearism. some people just skipped the first part and went str8 into pvp. why should that be a carebears problem or for that matter another pvpers. we all get round to it eventually

Foodpimp
Gallente
Heaven's Harvesters
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
Posted - 2009.10.07 04:48:00 - [159]
 

Navy...logistics. Got shot at but never got to shoot back. Fat lot of good years of hunting and government small arms training did me.

MyFingID
Posted - 2009.10.07 05:09:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Foodpimp
Navy...logistics. Got shot at but never got to shoot back. Fat lot of good years of hunting and government small arms training did me.


Lol same kind of situation, shot at but never got to shoot back. If I were to make a career out of the military I'd join Navy and try to get commanding a ship.

kongking wang
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.07 05:10:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Foodpimp
Navy...logistics. Got shot at but never got to shoot back. Fat lot of good years of hunting and government small arms training did me.


(using my military RL example)

by the main OP'S logic all our trg and preperation is carebearism. and as such we should have been sent to war as soon as we signed on to the military with no trg and without any gear.

(now taking my RL into eve)

my logic. i sign on to eve. i spend months and even years in trg gathering the correct gear and skills i require to do my job(same as the above quote). i then go to low sec/0.0 (afganistan). now when i fight the enemy im not only geared for a good fight but have some skills that will either ensure my victory or give the enemy a hell of a fight. i may even come home without a fight same as the quote again.

now if your pvp'ing for so called fun surelly a good fight is far better than a forced fight against a poorly geared or under skilled player is better.

Malphilos
Posted - 2009.10.07 05:15:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Akita T
There was a time you were afraid to go out with 10 mil worth of goods in a flimsily tanked industrial, and you would have thoughts about doing a 50 mil cargo run in a reasonably well tanked one... and that on manual pilot with instas.



There was also a time when you could make 60+ jump auto-pilot runs through 0.0 and never see anyone.

Adapt or die they say.

Foodpimp
Gallente
Heaven's Harvesters
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
Posted - 2009.10.07 05:18:00 - [163]
 

I think one of the main reasons you don't see more carebears doing the pvp thing earlier is that it's not really PvP....it's PvB....and the blob is usually gonna win. It's a pain in the ass to get a group of people that don't usually engage in non-environmental combat to form a cohesive roaming party or home defense group. I personally leave the space combat to the overweight armchair generals.

MyFingID
Posted - 2009.10.07 05:27:00 - [164]
 

That's true to a degree. My corp is currently going though this problem, T3s and destroyers vs cruisers and frigs. Tough fight some times

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.07 05:59:00 - [165]
 

Quote:
Rells, I think you're 100% right, particularly about pvp'ers creating content and carebears being parasitic.

Carebearz ArE pArAs1tEs!1! ThEy mUsT bE eXtErMiNaTeD!1!1! Evil or Very Mad

So now that we've arrived to this logical connclusion the question is how do we convince CCP to get rid of this parasite, this vermin? Surely it must realize it's for it's own good. And who is going to be the one to tell it? NOT IT!


Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.07 06:17:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Rells

The NPC purchase of player made or mined goods along with mission bonuses have turned on an infinite fountain of money supply that is akin to a real world government printing worthless money non-stop.



Just to chose one of your fail statements:

Can you show 1 example of NPC purchased player made or mined goods?

The orders for minerals where removed years ago and, as far as I know, NPC buy orders for finished goods never existed.


Governor LePetomane
Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions
Posted - 2009.10.07 06:39:00 - [167]
 

6 pages. Is Eve dead yet?

*checks evemon*

Nope.



How 'bout now?

Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2009.10.07 06:50:00 - [168]
 

OP: If you can't understand people who are different than you, don't try to. Understand that people are different.

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2009.10.07 06:56:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Rells, whilst I understand what you're saying and why you're saying it, I think you're overly pessimistic, overly prescreptive and over-generalising.

It is no secret that I have very little sympathy for people who demand ever-increasing levels of safety under the false flag of "playstyle". You can read over my forum record if you like. Hell, read the very first post I made on these forums. I have always consistently advocated maximum player freedom, minimum NPC freedom.

I would agree that around the 15 month period late 2007-to end of 2008 CCP took their eye off the ball and made several horrible strategic errors in overboosting hi-sec. However, I believe that they have recognised their error - the hints to this effect are there for anybody to read - and have begun the long, slow process of correcting it as best they can. Dominion, if it works as intended, will be a significant step in this direction. The relatively low carrying economic capacity of 0.0 has long been a legitimate objection to getting more people living in 0.0, and CCP have recognised this and taken steps to amend the situation.
Meanwhile, steps like the 11% tax rate for NPC corps are as explicit a signal as anyone could hope for that the old times of invulnerable unbalanced ISK-whoring in hi-sec are numbered. Back in the day it used to be that if you wanted to get rich, you went to 0.0. That's not the case now, but I believe that CCP want it to become that way again.

I have a huge amount of respect and gratitude for what you've done with Agony Unleashed. An invaluable service has been provided in exactly the way it should be done: in game, by players. All I'm asking from you now is one thing:


Keep the faith.


Hang in there, bro. Times are changing, and I believe for the better.



Pretty much this.


Don't mind the 'bears Rells they can mission if they want. As long as suicide ganking stays the way it is, these players will never be 100% safe, so EVE is not what you think..

Ivana Twinkle
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.07 07:09:00 - [170]
 

EVE is dying!

now where have i heard that before? ;)

kongking wang
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.07 07:13:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Ivana Twinkle
EVE is dying!

now where have i heard that before? ;)


didnt someone say that a few years ago lol

Siko lawk
Posted - 2009.10.07 07:49:00 - [172]
 

Rells must have been drunk when he wrote this?

Ban Doga
Posted - 2009.10.07 08:11:00 - [173]
 

I don't really feel qualified to say which MMOs are ruined, broken, or an economic failure.
Also I don't feel qualified enough to predict the likelihood of those changes actually coming or what effects they would have.

However I find this whole thing rediculous.

There is the Assembly Hall and the CSM.
If you wanna change something go there, write something constructive.

Calling people names and demanding changes without reason ("Because I want" is really no reason) might work in game and make people in game do what you want.
But this is not part of the game. This is a real business in the real life.
Use the official tools/channels for proposing changes.

Starting a threadnaught with a such posting only makes you look like an arrogant greifer who desperates emorages over not having enough people to shoot in the face - whether this is actually the case or not.


Maybe some of your former alliance members can help you take your ideas in the approriate form to the appropriate places.
Before "The alliance founded by the whine-fest-emoraging-forum-troll Rells" is the default answer to "What is Agony Empire?"

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.10.07 08:16:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Rells
PvPers have always found a way to supply their interests and until about 2 years ago in the game many pvp organizations made 90% of their own gear. In AGONY we had blueprints for every tech 1 module and ship highly researched. These days with the super flood of products on the market and the safety of empire, its easy just to go to empire to buy.


I do not intend to suggest that no-one could adapt if the market as we know it disappeared, but who would have a rational reason to actually want that? If PvPers are primarily interested in the challenges of combat, isn't it rational for them to prefer the lower prices and greater availability offered by the current status quo? My experience is that a lot people of would very much prefer to devote their time to fighting and outsource their logistics wherever possible, including some very large alliances that are more than capable of organising things themselves if they so choose.

Talking of 'The NPC purchase of player made or mined goods', I think you mostly mean insurance - this is one of the largest isk sources left in the game, and the only one that allows people to make a direct trade of minerals for NPC isk. Its effects are clear - the price a given basket of minerals can only fall so far before people find it worth their while to purchase and blow up ships en masse. On the other hand, it makes it much easier for people to replace their ships, vastly reducing the amount of time they are forced to spend grinding for isk.

It is not impossible that with a total removal of insurance, mineral prices would fall far enough for this 'replacement time' to fall to levels acceptable to most people, but that sort of change has the potential to drive away a lot of players, which doesn't make great financial sense for CCP. Also, I would be very surprised if increased replacement times did not the remaining players far more reluctant to engage in combat, except with the odds greatly in their favour. This, too, would not make for an enticing game experience.

Ebrey mark2
Posted - 2009.10.07 08:21:00 - [175]
 

This is scary... It's just a game. Take it easy:)

And as a pirate, Iīd like to explain the play style of mine (and of many of my corp mates).
Sure, we don't discriminate. We ransom poor mission runners, we kill haulers, we gladly pod fools in Catalysts, but we also like to fight other pirates. We pirate for the single reason that we donīt like to be told what or when to kill. And many of us has a carebear alt to make isk. So the owner of the account can be (and often is)1:A pirate 2: A prober 3: A mission runner 4: An explorer.

Let ppl play Eve in any way they want. I donīt bother you guys in 0.0, so plz donīt bother me.

Mmmmkay?...

PeHD0M
Posted - 2009.10.07 08:37:00 - [176]
 

Some people never pvp in eve because:

1. pvp in eve is VERY time consuming. The travel time, death penalty and all those stupid session change timers in the end result in massive time loss, wich is not fun (the fun\time_invested ratio is very low in eve pvp).

2. Some players like to play games alone to rest from real life and nothing will change that. Solo pvp sucks in eve. There are no fair fights. Blobs ftw.

3. What the point of attacking another player? Some players simply don't interested in the "blowing someone to pieces" idea. Or don't need other people stuff.

Ishquar Teh'Sainte
Euphoria Released
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.10.07 08:43:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: kongking wang

(using my military RL example)

by the main OP'S logic all our trg and preperation is carebearism. and as such we should have been sent to war as soon as we signed on to the military with no trg and without any gear.

(now taking my RL into eve)

my logic. i sign on to eve. i spend months and even years in trg gathering the correct gear and skills i require to do my job(same as the above quote). i then go to low sec/0.0 (afganistan). now when i fight the enemy im not only geared for a good fight but have some skills that will either ensure my victory or give the enemy a hell of a fight. i may even come home without a fight same as the quote again.



your "example" doesn't fit your logic.

following your logic, you'd join the army & "grind" for your gear without actually training the usage. when you get deployed you might have the shiniest and biggest weapons available, but your experience in using it is actually 0. it's like being told to operate a radar, while you don't even know how to turn on your mobile phone Razz

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.10.07 08:46:00 - [178]
 

Is this brainfart of a thread still going on? Amazing.

This must be the best troll ever. Gratz Rells, gratz.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.10.07 08:51:00 - [179]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 07/10/2009 08:53:00
Originally by: Ebrey mark2
This is scary... It's just a game. Take it easy:)

And as a pirate, Iīd like to explain the play style of mine (and of many of my corp mates).
Sure, we don't discriminate. We ransom poor mission runners, we kill haulers, we gladly pod fools in Catalysts, but we also like to fight other pirates. We pirate for the single reason that we donīt like to be told what or when to kill. And many of us has a carebear alt to make isk. So the owner of the account can be (and often is)1:A pirate 2: A prober 3: A mission runner 4: An explorer.

Let ppl play Eve in any way they want. I donīt bother you guys in 0.0, so plz donīt bother me.

Mmmmkay?...


Some people can't grasp that this game is not revolved around them and whatever perception they had that it was was purely coincidental. They also can't grasp that many MMO players these days do PVP and PVE quite happily, like yourself. I do too. I don't feel a desperate need to identify with what I do as its a game, as you say. I don't get a hard on by playing a macho guy in a computer simulation. There is something really sad about players that do.

This game is certainly PVP centred and that comes in many forms, not just blobbing and ganking. Its not even just ship to ship of course. Many Carebears by taking financial risk with their production or whatever are doing far more complex and involved PVP than a 10 to 1 gank squad is and it takes more guts. Scamming is a popular form of PVP and sometimes that takes some real effort.

To me in EVE the only real ship to ship PVP is solo, pirating, small gang roaming and the clever strategic and tactical elements which many of us won't get to do in large fleet operations. Hopefully the expansion will open some of this up as WH's have done already.



Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.07 08:52:00 - [180]
 

I can somewhat relate to OPs post.

In the beggining I used to be carebearish, did lots of missions, got a fansy mission ship and what not. Never really thinking deeper about it as the missions had som actioan and where somewhat cahllenging in the very begining. Eventually interest in these things dvindeld. I had more skills, knew my own ship, and mission became risk free.

I figured I might head to low sec for some fun. I fitted a Moa, and got my ass kicked by a nano Vaga (it was stil lthe nano age) and a Myrm. But I was not disharted. I found it fun and wanted more.

I got to talk with the guys who shot me, and they gave me some advice. I went back to the drawing board, read up on scanning, got a rifter, and went out again. Then I met success againts smaller ships, tho mostly against noobs and ratters. But I have scored good kills in the Rifter.

And now I live for the fight. Not the gank, but the fight. The gank is easy and I do them, mostly to get teh loot adn salvage to gain some isk. But teh fight where I am up against anohter dedicated PVPer is awesome, and still, my heart beats fast when its a close match (not to be misinterpreted as nervousness, just adrenaline, I act faster and respond quicker etc.). :)

The new changes with Dominion is interesting tho, more people in 0.0 should be interesting as it imposes risk, and potentialy more rewards then empire now.

Aslo, teh wormeholes was indeed a welcome addition to EVE. I have had lots of fun in them, and they can also be profitable if done right. A mining OP in a WH puts mining OPS in empire and 0.0 to shame in tersm of isk rewards. But it has risk, so I don't mind supporting my indy copre mates when out in WHs getting more sik and supplies.


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