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Droog 1
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:25:00 - [121]
 

Hey, I havn't ever seen any thread discussing this type of thing before. Well done for bringing it to everyones attention Rells. U Rock.


Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:29:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 06/10/2009 19:21:27
Agreeing with Matthew is a rare pleasure.

I would add that some game design changes probably did upset the way ISK flows, increasing the seperation between "PvP" and "PvE", notably the availablity of rare ore (even in limited volumes) outside of 0.0


I don't think it was the rare ores outside 0.0 alone that did this. The increasingly common non-mining sources of minerals, particularly the mid and high ends, driven by the drone regions and increasing amounts of missions resulting in increasing piles of loot to melt down, have had a significant effect as well.

Looking back, I think the ABC ores were the first indication we got that 0.0 as it stands is not capable of supporting a significant player population. Back when those ores were a primary economic driving force for being in 0.0, it's use was already being tightly controlled due to a shortage of roids with a very modest player count.

However, with the alternative flows of high-end minerals, this was devalued, and new revenue streams came online in 0.0 to mask the problem before it got bad enough to trigger a change. In my mind this is probably the worst effect of the whole "moongold" issue - in masking these underlying problems, it delayed the changes we are now seeing come to the table.

Originally by: Avon
The fact that some resources were available only in the "PvP zone" created a requirement for interaction. "Carebears" had the safe ISK printing, "PvP'ers" had something they wanted/needed.


I completely agree that is the balance that we used to have. However, that was in an Eve where 0.0, especially deep 0.0 where the ABC ores lived, had a dire lack of infrastructure. You were fairly sure the "PvP zone" resources would migrate back to empire because there was relatively little you could actually do with them at the point they were being harvested.

0.0 today is a completely different proposition. With POS and outposts allowing the players to put up their own infrastructure, 0.0 has the possibility of becoming far more self-sufficient. And if the apparent vision for 0.0 is large amounts of players settled out there, then this increased self-sufficiency is actually a requirement, otherwise it will fall down on the limitations of supply lines from empire.

Of course, the flip-side to 0.0 self-sufficiency is that the flow of stuff from 0.0 that empire wants, starts to dry up. Apart from some specific things (NPC goods), I think 0.0 is in a much better position to do without empire, than empire is to do without 0.0.

Originally by: Avon
I agree that Dominion provides some hope for rebalancing the "carebear" "PvP'er" interaction, but I also think more needs to be done to recreate the symbiotic relationship that used to exist between 0.0 and Empire.


I'm not convinced that old relationship can be regained with how Eve has developed since, and what I understand to be the long-term vision for 0.0. I think we need to be much more ambitious in rebalancing the "carebear" "combat" (I think that is more reflective of what we're talking about than PvP) interaction, and de-linking that from the 0.0/empire split.

Mining is a good example of what I'm thinking. Currently you have the high-end ores, yielding high-end minerals, in the high-risk space. However, you can't do much with only high-end minerals. You need a lot of Trit as well to make anything particularly useful. However, the most efficient source of mining trit is the lowest-end ore there is. Veldspar in 1.0 and veldspar in -1.0 have no significant differences, other than it is considerably less risky to harvest one of them compared to the other. Which produces a strong incentive for a significant portion of the mining workforce to stay in empire.

Yes, it is a symbiotic relationship and gets trade flowing. But having that relationship generates a requirement for people to stay in empire in order for that relationship to work.

tbc....

Downtym
Amarr
Ajo Heavy Industries
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:31:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Rells
The error is a minor typo. LOL .. I am sure that is ground breaking and earth shatteirng. i will go fix it for you ok.

EDIT: Oh I love all the comments, going to reply ot those that have substance soon. Must work you know.


You went from being confused about inflation and deflation to stating a falsehood. On the whole, prices over a year have not suffered hyper-inflation of any sort; if anything from looking at the market there's plenty of T1 and T2 out there.

Maybe you're confused and referring to CCP closing the reaction exploit which caused T2 prices to surge?

Libertarian, right?

Feilamya
Pain Elemental
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:32:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Nova Fox
dunno what do you call a person who only has enough time to play eve for only 30 minutes a day?

an idiot, because he is wasting his subscription money.

Jojo Jackson
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:34:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Nova Fox
dunno what do you call a person who only has enough time to play eve for only 30 minutes a day?


/*sarcasm

WOT, and you don't use this 30 mins to do a brainless and useless gatecamp?

SACRILEG!!!!!

sarcasm*/

Sitting around a gate for hours just becouse there MIGHT come a red through and then just kill another 3 month rookie you scammed (sorry, t****d) in his hard earned Destroyer ... which is a real and imens dangure for you ...

year, man, (NO) respect, you must be a real hero

^szcenario which happens every day or hour and another reason why I don't want to be part of this "glorius" PvP comunity in EvE!

Barakkus
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:42:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Rells

Oh the interstellar war would be magnificent. It would solve 90% of eve's financial and density issues in a single week. Imagine what would happen. Players would have to band together for protection, all new alliances would break out, more isk would be blown up in a day that in the history of eve. Financial markets would have to spread out less they become a major focal point target. Pvp organizations would take carebear organizations under thier wing to reap the rewards of their productivity while the carebears sought protection. Couple this with real player run empires and you would have a recipie for a magnificent game. Of course it will never happen because CCP is driven not by the game anymore but by their revenue. They would lose a lot of pure type 2 carebears but the resulting game would be ground breaking in the MMOG industry.


Underlined the part I'm talking about...not really ground breaking, while a completely different genre, I have 2 words...Sullon Zek. Pretty much a no rules pvp server for EverQuest. People used to grief people back to level 1 if they could and the GMs would do nothing about it ;)

Downtym
Amarr
Ajo Heavy Industries
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:43:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Feilamya
Originally by: Nova Fox
dunno what do you call a person who only has enough time to play eve for only 30 minutes a day?

an idiot, because he is wasting his subscription money.


As opposed to the people with 4 accounts playing 12 hours a day?

Priorities: They are awesome.

Downtym
Amarr
Ajo Heavy Industries
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:49:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
Underlined the part I'm talking about...not really ground breaking, while a completely different genre, I have 2 words...Sullon Zek. Pretty much a no rules pvp server for EverQuest. People used to grief people back to level 1 if they could and the GMs would do nothing about it ;)


Divine Vigilance, represent.

EC Tunnel wut, wut?

Barakkus
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:52:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Feilamya
Originally by: Nova Fox
dunno what do you call a person who only has enough time to play eve for only 30 minutes a day?

an idiot, because he is wasting his subscription money.


Notrly, I play 1-2 hours a couple times a week, maybe less sometimes. In total maybe 3-6 hours a week.

I have 2 accounts...I'm enjoying myself...once every couple of weeks I troll lowsec looking for a fight once I've made back 2x what I lost the prior week. If I didn't make it up due to lack of play time, I go a few more weeks until I do, that way I can continue to buy ships and mods to get blown up and more skill books.

I don't see it as wasting my money b/c I enjoy the brief times a week that I do actually play.

Azasello
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:53:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Downtym
(stuff) inflation and deflation (stuff)

Inflation can not happen in EVE, because there is no money in EVE.

ISK is not money. ISK is really a raw material, like gold, that can be processed into goods of actual value (BPOs, skill books, other NPC-"sold" stuff. The NPC "market" is called "market" because of its user interface, but it actually works exactly like a factory that processes ISK into goods, and not a bit like a market where you can buy goods for ISK)

Unlike real gold, however, ISK is more convenient than paper. It is actually more convenient than plastic or electronic money in the real world. ISK is electronic gold, with actual value. It is the ideal currency, something that never existed and will never exist in the real world.

Also unlike gold, ISK has infinite supply, bounded only by mining capacity (where "mining capacity" means: The amount of ISK mined by mission runners and ratters per unit time). The same is true for all other resources in the game. The only difference between ISK and veldspar is that ISK is more convenient as a currency (imagine having to haul tons of veldspar to Jita whenever you want to buy stuff...)

Finally, there is the fact that we are all just playing a game. The supply of minerals, ISK or any other raw materials anyone needs to survive in EVE is zero (unless he is running a POS, which requires fuel). As a result, our time is worthless. Opportunity cost in EVE is an illusion of a small minority of market role players.


Talking about economic crises, hyper-inflation or even capitalism in such an economic utopia is just ridiculous. EVE would be a lot more interesting with all these things, but to make them possible, CCP would have to remove the entire concept of ISK from the game.

Shakari Sween
Gallente
The Night Crew
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:56:00 - [131]
 

cause pvp is only blowing up other ships and has nothing to do with competeing for market shares/sales or competing for the ore/resources that are out there.

Barakkus
Posted - 2009.10.06 23:09:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Azasello
Originally by: Downtym
(stuff) inflation and deflation (stuff)

Inflation can not happen in EVE, because there is no money in EVE.

ISK is not money. ISK is really a raw material, like gold, that can be processed into goods of actual value (BPOs, skill books, other NPC-"sold" stuff. The NPC "market" is called "market" because of its user interface, but it actually works exactly like a factory that processes ISK into goods, and not a bit like a market where you can buy goods for ISK)

Unlike real gold, however, ISK is more convenient than paper. It is actually more convenient than plastic or electronic money in the real world. ISK is electronic gold, with actual value. It is the ideal currency, something that never existed and will never exist in the real world.

Also unlike gold, ISK has infinite supply, bounded only by mining capacity (where "mining capacity" means: The amount of ISK mined by mission runners and ratters per unit time). The same is true for all other resources in the game. The only difference between ISK and veldspar is that ISK is more convenient as a currency (imagine having to haul tons of veldspar to Jita whenever you want to buy stuff...)

Finally, there is the fact that we are all just playing a game. The supply of minerals, ISK or any other raw materials anyone needs to survive in EVE is zero (unless he is running a POS, which requires fuel). As a result, our time is worthless. Opportunity cost in EVE is an illusion of a small minority of market role players.


Talking about economic crises, hyper-inflation or even capitalism in such an economic utopia is just ridiculous. EVE would be a lot more interesting with all these things, but to make them possible, CCP would have to remove the entire concept of ISK from the game.


Um, you just defined isk as a currency with all that stuff...I'm not sure you really understand what "money" is...

Downtym
Amarr
Ajo Heavy Industries
Posted - 2009.10.06 23:09:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Azasello
Inflation can not happen in EVE, because there is no money in EVE.

ISK is not money. ISK is really a raw material, like gold, that can be processed into goods of actual value (BPOs, skill books, other NPC-"sold" stuff. The NPC "market" is called "market" because of its user interface, but it actually works exactly like a factory that processes ISK into goods, and not a bit like a market where you can buy goods for ISK)


...

Man, where is that...Ah, here it is:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.10.06 23:13:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Matheyn
Originally by: Ukucia
Fact is, the vast majority of the time PvP is completely safe for the aggressor. He's chosen his target such that he has very little chance of losing. If it looks like there's a decent chance they'll lose, your typical PvPer flies away looking for a better target (Btw, this is the smart thing to do).

It's about as risky as clubbing a baby seal.


You've just described the natural state of PvP in any MMO though. It's been true since UO and it's true now. People aren't actively going to put what they have at risk when there are safer options.


Only "open world" PvP. Most MMOs end up creating some sort of separate environment that attempts to balance the combatants. WoW's arenas, for example.

You'll note that Rells hates this kind of PvP.

Quote:
It's a minority, honestly, because of the mitigation of player interaction. If EVE were truly dangerous - I'm talking Player Corporations in charge of order and security for miners, production folks, etc. and so on - you'd see less of this around.

You're joking, right?

If players had to provide security for their miners, that would just mean the folks who call themselves "PvPers" today would simply bring a larger force. It would be exactly the same clubbing of baby seals.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.10.06 23:16:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 06/10/2009 23:17:54
I do think its funny that EVE is a sand box yet many want to tell other players how to spend their time and subs. The players that do this are always PVP players. Maybe some like to boss people around or something or get kicked around a lot in real life. Well, sorry to disappoint, its none of your business how I play the game.

Barakkus
Posted - 2009.10.06 23:17:00 - [136]
 

I think he's just mad about his other thread.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2009.10.06 23:17:00 - [137]
 

The problem with setting up a symbiosis between empire and 0.0 is that the symbiosis sets up a requirement for a significant population in empire relative to the 0.0 population to support that end of the symbiosis. This is no problem when 0.0 can only accommodate (in terms of resource density), a small proportion of the playerbase. But with the aim of Dominion being to allow large chunks of the playerbase to migrate into 0.0, it seems counter-productive to re-establish a symbiosis that would limit the portion of the playerbase that could practically do this.

If a symbiosis is in place, and too many people migrated out of empire, there would be a shortage of the empire side and an oversupply of the 0.0 side. Prices in empire rise, those in 0.0 fall. The earning incentive of 0.0, which drives migration and funds the additional operating costs of being in 0.0, gets eroded, and players flow back into empire not because they want to hide behind CONCORD, but because that's where it makes more business sense for them to be.

Instead, I think we need to move away from tying resource types to security statuses. Instead, we put all resources across all security types, but scaled to be appropriate to that security. A simplified example of the principle would be to have 0.0-Veldspar with a yield several times that of ordinary veldspar, and similarly an empire-Arkonor, with a yield several times less than ordinary Arkonor (note this is an example of principle, not a solid proposal for a specific change).

That way, population movements into or out of empire do not generate perverse incentives to reverse the trend, and fluctuations or issues with an individual resource do not destroy the balance of earnings between security statuses.

Of course, going all the way to the homogenous end of the scale means that there is then no incentive for the areas to trade. So that has it's own problem.

Which leads to the middle ground - all resources available in all areas, but some areas are more efficient than others.

Again, going back to my simplified mining example. Instead of setting the "non-native" ore to be equal in value, instead you make it slightly nerfed, maybe 75% (number for example purposes only). 0.0 would still prefer to mine Arkonor, and empire would still prefer to mine Veldspar, and with a balanced population you would have trade and the "symbiotic" relationship.

However, if the population becomes unbalanced, the market will start to move to pull it back by skewing it's prices. Lets say that 0.0 becomes the vast majority of population. Arkonor is over-mined, and there is not enough Veldspar. Megacyte prices fall, Trit prices rise. In a "unique resource" scenario, these price movements would continue unchecked until people moved back to empire. In my scenario, the price movements are soft-capped at the point at which the 0.0-Veldspar becomes equal in value to Arkonor, as at that point 0.0 kicks in it's supply and makes up the hole at an economically sensible price.

The market is still giving a price signal for people to go to empire, but it is a limited signal, and a stable skewed population can be maintained. Similarly, trade will still flow to the quantity maintainable by the smaller of the two populations - the relative advantage of veldspar in empire will be even greater, so empire residents will be even more keen to trade than in the balanced situation. If 0.0 looks at itself and thinks "equal prices, I'll just be self-sufficient", then the supply and demand from empire will start to shift the prices back the other way, 0.0 will be incentivised to mine Arkonor again, until sufficient trade flows to hold the whole system in equilibrium.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2009.10.06 23:33:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Ukucia
If players had to provide security for their miners, that would just mean the folks who call themselves "PvPers" today would simply bring a larger force. It would be exactly the same clubbing of baby seals.


That is at least partially due to the very limited options to "meatshield" in Eve, which leads to attackers simply poaching the weak miners out from under the noses of their escorts. Any escorts are relegated to the role of vengeance fleet rather than defensive fleet.

The majority of non-combat vessels do not have sufficient HP or resists to be effectively remote-repped when under significant fire. This lack of scalability means that it is impossible to use remote-repping to keep a ship alive above a certain blob size.

There aren't really means of preventing an aggressor engaging the target of their choice, even if you have a far superior defensive force. Your only options are:

1) Prevent them attacking anything through EWar. Which is weak for this purpose because otherwise it would be horribly overpowered for everything else
2) Melt them before they melt the target - which requires a massive out-blobbing due to aforementioned weakness of the likely targets compared to the likely combat vessels being used to attack it.
3) Run away before the aggressor can engage - which leads to a lack of any fights at all as everyone warps and docks/cloaks etc at the first hint of trouble, and means you can deny the enemy the use of their ships and resources without even needing to properly attack them.

If the PvPers bring a larger force and defeat the escort, I don't have a problem with that. If they just bring a larger force so they can gank the target out from under the noses of the escort, then that is your clubbing scenario.

Not sure what the solution to this one is though.

Korizan
Hysterically Unforgiving
Posted - 2009.10.06 23:58:00 - [139]
 

FACT if you want to live in 0.0 the only thing you need from High-sec/low-sec are NPC sold items that can't be bought in 0.0
The prices of said items have not changed.
Everything else can be made and sold in 0.0

So if high-sec was totally filled and the entire economy in high-sec was completely tanked, it wouldn't matter in the least bit to a 0.0 alliance.

End discussion, there is no PvP and anti-pvpers controversy, cause High-sec has no ability to effect 0.0 in any way unless 0.0 chooses to involve it.





Dictum Factum
Skill Training
Posted - 2009.10.07 00:04:00 - [140]
 

After reading the original post, along with several of the poster's replies, I walked out to my garage. Once there I wrote "Rells" on every tool that I own.

inVictu5
Globo Gym Purple Cobras
Posted - 2009.10.07 00:07:00 - [141]
 

Do3s my butTon5 w0rk

Hamshoe
Posted - 2009.10.07 00:45:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Feilamya
Originally by: Nova Fox
dunno what do you call a person who only has enough time to play eve for only 30 minutes a day?

an idiot, because he is wasting his subscription money.


I prefer the terms "Dad", "husband", "coach", and "patient".

Were I to be snarky, I'd point out that it might be legitimate to consider that anyone who plays much more than 30 minutes a day on average is wasting their life.

And I've got a metric buttload more money than I do life.


Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.10.07 00:45:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Dictum Factum
After reading the original post, along with several of the poster's replies, I walked out to my garage. Once there I wrote "Rells" on every tool that I own.

Did you write it backwards so you can read it in the mirror?

Capt Fossil
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.07 00:57:00 - [144]
 

You play your way and I will play my way, OK Mr OP?

Same usual suspects saying it's too easy for carebears, while they mean it's not getting any easier for them to live off of just ganking everybody they can.

Some of your buddies had a shot at my carebear butt today. My itty-bitty little 6 man corp took our Orca, a hulk and one small escort into a WH to mine Arkanor.

Made 3 round trips with an Orca full of Arkanor. Ended up having to settle for some Bistot on the last load. Well the last load wasn't quite full as my escort spotted a few combat probes in system. So we packed it in a little early. Just in time too, as there was a Vaga, A Domi, a Navy Caracal and something else assembling on the high sec side of the WH ( which had nothing in it in the way of complex's BTW)

I could almost feel the despair when I jumped out of that WH in my Orca. Great fun, and even greater risk for good money. Yep! I am a carebear. Who would have had one big surprise for those dudes had they gotten the jump on us. I haven't neglected my defensive skills in spite of an industry base.

Still a big risk even taking an Orca and a hulk into a WH, but I do my best to limit it.

Ya know if you PvP'ers whine enough, maybe CCP will but up Concord billboards at every WH entrance for ya, telling you who is in there.

It's just a game folks.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2009.10.07 01:17:00 - [145]
 

Rells appears to be conflating "industrialists" and "neophytes" with "carebears".

To get neophytes into PvP, you just need to find an experienced PvPer who is willing to fly in fleets with folks who have no combat experience. Rather than ranting about it on the forums, Rells would be better serving the EVE community by forming a PvP training corporation and openly inviting people to join the corp.

Industrialists already do PvP - there's no escaping a gatecamp even in empire space. There's can flippers to contend with, and even miners have to compete with other miners for asteroid belts that are not yet fully depleted.

If CONCORD was removed tomorrow, the game would be dead within a month. With nowhere safe for new players to wrap their heads around the rules of the game, there would be no new players joining the game. There is still PvP to be had in empire space, that's what wardecs are for (as horrible as they are).

Please Rells, put away your strawman "myths" and stick to the facts.

Are you perhaps suggesting that new players should only be afforded the cocooned safety of NPC corps until they're 6 months old? Are you perhaps suggesting that drones and NPCs shouldn't drop items that can be refined into minerals that would otherwise be sourced from lowsec and nullsec?

Do you actually have any suggestions, or are you just whining about imagined problems in a game which you don't actually play anymore?

Sidero
Posted - 2009.10.07 02:07:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Sidero on 07/10/2009 02:07:46
The sliding scale pvp system encouraging the participation of carebears is what allowed EVE to persist without compromising (as Ultima Online did) or expiring (as Shadowbane did)

Frankly, I'm happy a multitude of players with remarkably varying interests play EVE Online. It was part of the magic of old UO, but in those days players didn't have much of a choice but to play together. In EVE, people of all sorts chose to play here despite their differences.

The notably absent myth I welcome anyone to disprove? "Carebears" pay a significant part of the bills that allow CCP to support PvP'ers, try out FPS offshoots and shine on like crazy diamonds.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.10.07 02:31:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 07/10/2009 02:32:54

Rells is, sadly, mostly correct.

He's taking his anger/frustration to illogical extremes, he exagerates a lot, and he's not quite clear on some of the finer points of trade&industry... but the core of what he's saying is absolutely correct.


EVE has been getting easier and easier for "carebearish empire dwellers" ever since the day CONCORD was invented, and it has been getting easier in steps, at least one step, usually two steps per year.
First, it was CONCORD. Then, it was better/faster/stronger CONCORD. Then, it was nearly instantly disabling CONCORD (once they showed up). Also, at the same time, increasingly harsher secstatus penalties. Oh, and the repeated HP buffs, the introduction of HP-bufing rigs and everything else (a lot of other things) that indirectly help people in highsec survive until CONCORD shows up to save the day (or, sometimes, just punish, the only thing they were actually supposed to do in the first place).

There was a time you were afraid to go out with 10 mil worth of goods in a flimsily tanked industrial, and you would have thoughts about doing a 50 mil cargo run in a reasonably well tanked one... and that on manual pilot with instas.
Now, 100 mil in cargo and a token tank while on autopilot, and you're not really that afraid anymore.
Freighters ? If you wanted to carry 2 bil in cargo, you'd usually get a webbing corpmate with you, and maybe even some logistics just to make sure... now, 10+ bil in cargo and autopilot and it's just peachy.

Oh well...
Excuse me if I won't dwell on this a lot longer, but I was going to go to bed nearly 2 hours ago Twisted Evil

isdisco3
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2009.10.07 02:55:00 - [148]
 

Rells, I think you're 100% right, particularly about pvp'ers creating content and carebears being parasitic.

Unfortunately I do not think EVE can be saved. It has gone too far into carebeardom, just like every other MMO. What would be truly interesting would be to have a game 100% designed around pvp with no carebear areas and see if it works.

What is also interesting is the WoW model. How do you see that in comparison to EVE, given that wow is immensely popular and has been around for several years now so has staying power? I have never played it personally, but from what I understand the carebear-ness of WoW and its lack of player-generated content are major reasons why its customer base is so huge.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2009.10.07 03:04:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Rells is, sadly, mostly correct.

He's taking his anger/frustration to illogical extremes, he exagerates a lot, and he's not quite clear on some of the finer points of trade&industry... but the core of what he's saying is absolutely correct.


So what you're saying is that if you really try hard, you can find something salvagable in his drivel?

Quote:
EVE has been getting easier and easier for "carebearish empire dwellers" ever since the day CONCORD was invented, and it has been getting easier in steps, at least one step, usually two steps per year.


In the meantime, EVE has been getting harder and harder for new players to get into. It balances out to some degree. New players can train to fly a mammoth in a couple of days, but they'll be ganked by folks who have level 5 in Mechanic, Engineering, Electronics, Rapid Fire, Weapon Upgrades, Advanced Weapon Upgrades, etc.

Quote:
Freighters ? If you wanted to carry 2 bil in cargo, you'd usually get a webbing corpmate with you, and maybe even some logistics just to make sure... now, 10+ bil in cargo and autopilot and it's just peachy.


The General Freight Containers dotted around the landscape tell me that life as a freighter pilot is not, as you put it, "just peachy". Have you flown through Gallente or Caldari space recently?

The only reason it's remotely safe for a noob to fly all their worldly possessions around in a tier 2 hauler is that the suicide ganking fleets have got much bigger, juicier targets to hit. Why suicide gank that hauler carrying a couple of T1 frigates with cheap T1 weapons, when waiting an extra 15 minutes will mean you end up catching a freighter load of zydrine instead?

Now if you'd chosen to point out that folks in NPC corps can fly marauders, I'd agree with you that the situation needs to be rectified. Why should you have access to "easy mode" level 4 missions when you're not taking any risks?

If you'd chosen to point out the unattractiveness of lowsec due to high-end minerals being dropped like candy by T1 loot from NPCs and drone poo, I'd agree with you that the situation needs to be rectified.

But you chose CONCORD, which is there to keep Empire hisec safe-ish for new players so they have the opportunity to learn the game this month instead of being ganked over and over again by folks who have been playing for five years and know the rules inside out.

There are still plenty of suicide ganks throughout empire space. Some people do it for the giggles (witness the occasional disco-geddon at the ice fields in Eygfe or Brapelille), others do it for the profit (witness the General Freight Containers sitting 14km off gates all through Empire space). CONCORD still takes a decent amount of time to respond, you just have to pick suicide ganks in 0.5 or 0.6 instead of 1.0 space.

The only people who are truly safe in hisec are the ones who don't undock.

I'll be watching the Dominon release with anticipation - I'm sure it will see more of Rells's "type 1 carebears" heading out to lowsec and nullsec to partake in the industrial and PvP pleasures that EVE has to offer.

Korizan
Hysterically Unforgiving
Posted - 2009.10.07 03:06:00 - [150]
 

Well if care bears are really parisites then stop buying items from carebears.
In other words stop buying player sold items in highsec and then supply will exceed demand and the care bears will leave the game cause they can't make ISK anymore.

The solution is there you just have to act.
Simple, as I stated above 0.0 players really don't have to even deal with high-sec if they don't want to.


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