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Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.10.06 19:18:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Avon on 06/10/2009 19:21:27
Agreeing with Matthew is a rare pleasure.

I would add that some game design changes probably did upset the way ISK flows, increasing the seperation between "PvP" and "PvE", notably the availablity of rare ore (even in limited volumes) outside of 0.0

The fact that some resources were available only in the "PvP zone" created a requirement for interaction. "Carebears" had the safe ISK printing, "PvP'ers" had something they wanted/needed.

To some extent this balance was attempted again with moon mining and its requirement in T2 production, however this was not well thought out. Mining had far greater availability, and the chance of "ninja mining" for great profit. Moons, alas, require POS - and so not only is there reduced resource availability, but also restricted methods of aquisition.
Whilst it was great for the alliances with access to good moons it was not in itself good game design.

I agree that Dominion provides some hope for rebalancing the "carebear" "PvP'er" interaction, but I also think more needs to be done to recreate the symbiotic relationship that used to exist between 0.0 and Empire.

Malphilos
Posted - 2009.10.06 19:24:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Rells
The pvpers, on the other hand, are universally a group that want a challenge. They want the game company out of their way other than providing tools for them to control their own world.


Right there I quit reading.

Sure, things used to be different. There's a common phrase about that complaint.

You've done some cool and impressive things in EVE, but when you start grousing about how the kids these days just don't get it you might as well put that other foot in the grave and do your spinning there.

o/




Seriah Rezin
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.06 19:30:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Malphilos
Originally by: Rells
The pvpers, on the other hand, are universally a group that want a challenge. They want the game company out of their way other than providing tools for them to control their own world.


Right there I quit reading.

Sure, things used to be different. There's a common phrase about that complaint.

You've done some cool and impressive things in EVE, but when you start grousing about how the kids these days just don't get it you might as well put that other foot in the grave and do your spinning there.

o/


He's right about them wanting the game company out of the way though. The 'challenge' part is a bit presumptuous, particularly when the vast majority of MMO PvP is predicated on obvious superiority of either numbers or ship and fit.

Anhur Shu
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2009.10.06 19:36:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Rells
They are just resource consumers. They generate no content in the game but merely consume it.


well.....don't they generate the content that PvPers consume? I don't consider myself a carebear, although like many others in the game I DO have a second account that is a miner. I do understand that even tho I am not mainly a carebear they DO make the things that I blow up, and get blown up all the time.

I don't build stuff yet, but if I could, well while I AM making stuff I would still be doing carebear work so that I could do what I really want to do....blow that stuff up that I help make.....somebody needs to make the stuff, and unfortunately it's a carebear activity.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of what you have to say, but I also understand that in order to do what I like doing I need the people that don't necessariy like doing the same thing as me. So, I can't really ever bring myself to ever say "screw them, they're ruining this game. Get rid of them." They are needed, and it's what they like doing...have at it. I wouldn't be able to have fun if they weren't doing what they do.

Jarna
Amarr
Air EVE
Posted - 2009.10.06 19:39:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Also False.
Neocron and UO died because the metagame grew stale and repetitive. Like almost all games do.
Comparing it to for example old counterstrike. There is only so many times you can play Dust until you've seen every strategy for the map and the metagame becomes stale.


Umm, which is why thousands of servers still exists, thousands of people still play, and there are still tournaments in CS:S (old or new CS, your argument, technically, should still apply).

Dorian Wylde
Posted - 2009.10.06 19:48:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Dorian Wylde on 06/10/2009 19:52:31
Carebears? You mean the guys running the economy, mining the minerals, building the ships, farming the modules that keep you idiot pvpers going?

WE'RE ruining the game?

You sir, are a funny man.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that the reason Tabula Rasa failed is because you pvpers wouldn't shut up about adding more pvp to a game that didn't need it, and should have never had it. Arena's are destroying WoW, and the only way they've been able to get any hold on that is by eliminating the 2v2 bracket.

PVPer's ruin MMO's. If you want PVP, if you want a 'challenge' play a real pvp game. Look me up in Team Fortress 2 or Counter Strike. As long as you're in an MMO, even one as unforgiving as EVE, you're at the whim of the PvE crowd. Deal with it and shut up, or leave and shut up. It's all the same to us.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:04:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
The OP is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin...




The exact opposite is true. Rells is correct with every point he made.

FOl2TY8
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:07:00 - [98]
 

I think my own personal litmus test for "needing to get a life" will be when I get so involved with a video game that it makes me invest as much emotion as the OP has invested.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:07:00 - [99]
 

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that PVPers such as the OP are the ones that have driven other MMO's out of business. The loudest minority whining and hate-mongering against all that refuse to play their style. It's either the "be my target or GTFO my game" mentality. The only important subscription fee is the one they pay. None others' matter. These are the players that ironically enough call carebears "whiners", "selfish", "greedy", etc.


Eve Spair
Caldari
Space Perverts
D0GS OF WAR
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:16:00 - [100]
 

*licks Rells tears*

mmm.. mmmm..

yes yes, your anguish sustains me.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:18:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Dorian Wylde
Carebears? You mean the guys running the economy, mining the minerals, building the ships, farming the modules that keep you idiot pvpers going?
No. There are plenty of industrialists doing that — the carebears are irrelevant for all said activities.
Quote:
WE'RE ruining the game?
Seeing as how you're constantly trying to move the game away from its PvP core, and adding nothing to it, yes.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:19:00 - [102]
 

ops posts were too long. so i didnt bother to read them, so you get me posting in here instead.

I love you all.

But seriously go whine someplace else.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:19:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Dorian Wylde
Edited by: Dorian Wylde on 06/10/2009 19:52:31
Carebears? You mean the guys running the economy, mining the minerals, building the ships, farming the modules that keep you idiot pvpers going?

WE'RE ruining the game?

You sir, are a funny man.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that the reason Tabula Rasa failed is because you pvpers wouldn't shut up about adding more pvp to a game that didn't need it, and should have never had it. Arena's are destroying WoW, and the only way they've been able to get any hold on that is by eliminating the 2v2 bracket.

PVPer's ruin MMO's. If you want PVP, if you want a 'challenge' play a real pvp game. Look me up in Team Fortress 2 or Counter Strike. As long as you're in an MMO, even one as unforgiving as EVE, you're at the whim of the PvE crowd. Deal with it and shut up, or leave and shut up. It's all the same to us.


The term 'industrialist' needs to be separated from the term 'carebear'. Carebears by my most common used definition is a player that wants to avoid all PVP as much as possible and be 'left alone to play their game in peace'. This is fundamentally what hurts Eve on all levels and is what Rells is talking about.

PVPers don't need carebears. If carebears didn't exist, there would still be PVPers who would fill in the gaps when it came to producing the ships and modules required to kill other players. Indeed, my friends and I produce a wide variety of materials and ships and so forth in order to be more self sufficient. We are very shrewd and efficient 'industrialists' and operate very profitably, but we're not carebears.

We embrace conflict and destruction, not do everything we can to avoid it. We don't hide in NPC corps and run L4s 23/7 and horde our ISK and never lose ships and ruin the economy with our very existence.

Yes, *you* (carebears) are ruining the game.

Acrid Acid
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:26:00 - [104]
 

''Sorry for dose...''

I stopped reading there... eeesh. ugh

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:28:00 - [105]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 06/10/2009 20:29:17
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Carebears by my most common used definition is a player that wants to avoid all PVP as much as possible and be 'left alone to play their game in peace'.

What's funny is that this quote above describes what "PVPers" such as yourself are all about. YOU want to avoid PVP as much as possible only doing it when you are all but guaranteed a win. And of all people, you, Bellum, are probably the best example of what being a selfish whining player is all about. Your whines purely emphasize on how to make your game as a pirate better, not the game as a whole, but YOUR game alone. You just 'want to be left alone' in your own bubble of 'PVP'.

Quote:
Yes, *you* (carebears) are ruining the game.

And why don't you go find a game where carebears are banned from playing instead of *****ing and whining for years on end about this one?


Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:30:00 - [106]
 

OP was completely and unequivocally right on each and every single point made.

Anyone that disagrees should be dragged from their beds at 3am, down into a dark alley, and shot in the back of the head (in game).

nafiy gnaw
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:32:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Awesome Possum
OP was completely and unequivocally right on each and every single point made.

Anyone that disagrees should be dragged from their beds at 3am, down into a dark alley, and shot in the back of the head (in game).


Oh yes, the Führer has spoken, carebears are scums of the society!


....................not ugh

Jojo Jackson
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:49:00 - [108]
 

As neutral Pilot to all 0.0 Pilots/Corps/Allys I must say ... no, non of this entitys is friendly in any form.

Even if I play chess or other games my gole is allways to be respecfull or earn honor, equal if I lose with honor or win with honor!
Both facts I simply can not find in EvE 0.0 and lowsec and less in highsec through ganging defensless haulers or wardecing industrial/trade/sience corps.

This is the main reson I don't care about any PvP whiner here as the don't want or simply can't offer, what I expect from PvP - respect and honor!
I care a **** about killboards and got flamed for not posting killsmails (they destroyed all hope off honor as you need this stupid Badgar I kill for your stats padding).

This is not CCPs fault (well, maybe a bit as they allow far to much crime without danguer) and no fault of EvE. The player out there fail. Player like Rells, who belive they are how all have to be.

PvP in eve isn't about honor at all. Most "GG", "GF" or other called stuff is in fact NOT good!
300 v 30 is good, if the 30 won without trippel DD. Other way it wasn't a fight at all but just pur destruction and deservs no honor.

Beeing flamed just becouse you have some other opinions about playsstyle, fitting or how to behave ... is no fun and deservs no honor (mayor point why 99% of all PvP player aren't respected by me anyway - to much flame).

Oh and do not let us forget ... a big part of this so hated carebears are ... PvP player alts!
Be it to fly missions to have money for your next gangbang, be it to scout for your PvP player without harm, be it to scam or infiltryte other player/corps/allys.

So tell me again ... why the f**** should I want to play like you play?
I see absolut NO reson to do so!

Downtym
Amarr
Ajo Heavy Industries
Posted - 2009.10.06 20:50:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Rells
Myth #1: Without the carebears, the economy would be dead.

Sorry, the economy is dead. You have rampant deflation of items resulting largely from CCPs abject failure to manage the money supply in the game.

The NPC purchase of player made or mined goods along with mission bonuses have turned on an infinite fountain of money supply that is akin to a real world government printing worthless money non-stop. Hyper-inflation is the result.

When I started Eve people would be happy to get to their first million isk. Now that is barely enough to buy a decent gun. The economy could be fixed but it would require a drastic shift in monetary policy made by CCP and would **** off many of type 2 carebears.



Nothing really relevant to say except:

I read the above - particularly the bold parts - and am left to conclude that you're a Libertarian. Failure to understand simple economics and all that. Until you can spot the SIMPLE and FUNDAMENTAL error in the above, you're not allowed to argue about the economy anymore.

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2009.10.06 21:08:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 06/10/2009 21:08:09
I ranted, but I'll cut it down to this

To be frank, OP's just full of tears and rhetoric.

Rells definition of carebears is wildly inadequate. I certainly don't want CCP's help, I have no delusions of adequacy or inadequacy in combat, I just know how to get away. If you can't catch me, then that's the fault of your own incapability. (PS, I've always operated in a player corp of one-man to boot, and only once had a wardec in 2 years). Come get me? When I'm out in 0.0 people rarely do, and if they do I'm in something disposable. That said, I wonder if you distinguish between carebear (tear-filled safety blanket hugger) and industrialist (somone who hasn't pvp'ed a day in their life, but is more than willing to take risks and accept losses in wolf/rabit scenarios).

Feilamya
Pain Elemental
Posted - 2009.10.06 21:15:00 - [111]
 

Edited by: Feilamya on 06/10/2009 21:15:41
Originally by: Rells
During the early stages of Eve when tech 2 was rolled out, it was impossible to produce tech 2 items in empire. You had to get the materials from 0.0 and hostile space. A nuimber of organizations went out and made fortunes for themselves and tech 2 had a massive market. I remember ordering ships from Naga (an enourmous industrial complex alliance) and loving it when they were deliverd (and this was pre-capitals as well). PvPers have always found a way to supply their interests and until about 2 years ago in the game many pvp organizations made 90% of their own gear. In AGONY we had blueprints for every tech 1 module and ship highly researched.

This part reminded me of that game I wanted to play immediately after I heard about it, back in 2007. Then, for some reason I don't remember, I started playing EVE instead, which turned out to be just another MMO, much like the one I played before.

Unfortunately, I forgot the name of that other game. It was something with spaceships and corporations, and I heard about it because of some case of developers helping a player corporarion which was in the news all over the internet...

Well, at least EVE doesn't have elves. I hate elves, with a passion!

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2009.10.06 21:29:00 - [112]
 

Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 06/10/2009 21:30:37
Kind of curious if Rells has ever engaged in a trade war on the market in Jita? It is PvP in a very real sense and frankly a lot more complicated than gate camping.

Ever tried running an industrial concern? Again not easy. Again PvP in every sense of the term. It is you versus the other guy trying to out sell each other.

Think that is wimpy stuff? It only really counts if your ship is on the line? Nevermind that your billions invested in low sec towers and materials can be zapped right? It is meaningless to Rells I suppose because there are no explosions.

I note in Rells OP he mentions the old days of making T2 and making a fortune from 0.0. The way I remember it T2 was so blindly expensive few dared to risk them in PvP. Hell, a Hulk cost 600 million ISK back then. Further, I wonder who he thinks was mining the raw materials needed to build T1 ships/mods (also needed for T2)? For all that he and his were building junk did it never occur where the base materials came from?

As for pew pew I wonder if Rells really wants Team Fortress in space. Nevermind fussing around with carebear builders. Just have ships spawn. Nevermind fighting for control of resources since if you do not need to build anything who cares about resources? Just make it pew pew all the time! Dunno about you but that would be a wholly different game and not near as interesting.

If anything you could argue it is PvPers who ruin the game for everyone else. Most PvPers are fine but there are always some who have to go muck it up for everyone else. Remember the Yulai Incident? CCP had to strengthen CONCORD after that and spend a lot of time reimbursing people. Suicide ganking is another one (oh for the days when you could do it in a cruise missile fitted Kestrel that you could train up in a month). Simple economic decision. My ship + insurance will cost me "X" to lose, target has "Y" value. Zap, boom, all over before anyone can do anything. Can baiting noobs? List goes on.

CCP has tightened things up because someone, somewhere will find the ***** in the system and exploit it. Other people see it then it is a pile on with everyone doing it. That quickly results in a disaster for the game.

EVE has been made from the beginning with aspects of PvP (markets as well as combat) as well as carebearism. They are intertwined. Granted it is a delicate balance but removing what you perceive as carebear aspects of EVE would make it a different game entirely. One you may be happy to play but one I suspect a vast majority of current players would not be happy with.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2009.10.06 21:38:00 - [113]
 

I think the word rells is looking for is angry bears.

Carebears turned vicous and live the hybrid life, or possibly enslaved carebares the ones forced to do the industry work at the whims of thier allaince.

Myth 1 is opinionated it all depends who you ask or who had experinced it, when I first started playing Tier 1 battleships where 150million a pop now adays you can find one from a friend for 50 million. If hyper inflation was true it would be 500 million instead.

Myth 2 its technically wrong you still have a person who isnt that well skilled in combat skills but heavy on the industry side and hes probably more knowledgable enough in it to make most pvpers confused about it.

Myth 3 has some truth especially when they're NBSI and all you wanted to do is go though and do some surveys or go record the latest battle for the news organizations your helping out sure anyone can be reason with though chat far distances away but there are alot of intolerant people and commanders out there that dont ever seem to get the word

myth 4 is half right and half wrong but only in the terms of its title, Alot of pvpers out there truely and if they do it alot dont have alot of money hence why so many of them are starved out and actually have to make everything in thier backyard instead. And the millions of sp comment is a bit silly considering new players can easily get to those numbers easily. But your point is right, knowing the tools is far more effective than skill points itself.

myth 5 is only generated by those poking thier nose into lowsec and getting nailed by a gate camp alone or in very few numbers and then getting wardecced once those pirates find out they suck and can move camp to thier stations instead. You're right they are horrible pvpers most of the time theyll run off at the sight of something seriously threatening like 30 1 month old players gate rushing them.

myth 6 is a fantasy of a pvper that in reality would hurt ccp and in turn hurt eve online in the end, simply put on whats wrong with the idea is banding together, that its difficult, its hard, its complicated, its not gauranteed to be safe, it has a chance of betryal, and finally not effective vs those who already know wtf is going on which is oddly similar to the issue of new allainces TRYING to get into 0.0. Hopefully fleet finder MAY fix this issue as well as dominion. and your excuse to saying that this idea is stopping eve from becomming ground breaking is also opinionated as ccp is doing something so new and unheard of there litterally isnt a term for it yet.

myth 7 also untrue 0.0 hasnt really been nerfed or buffed in a long time probably since its creation, its still in spirit the same damned place that made the great war grind to a screeching halt.

myth 8 is also untrue on an average day veldspare is worth more m3 per hour than any low/null sec ore out there save for bistot which begs the question why in the hell should I mine veldspare in 0.0 when I can get ganked by a bunch of players and my allaince of course will never show up in time or even worse they're already blown up to bits.

Sizzle Anburn
Posted - 2009.10.06 21:41:00 - [114]
 

With the lower cost of tech 2 everything, insurance, endless moon gold, jump clones, and all the other things CCP has done to minimize the pain of loss for 0.0 the pvper's it has become so soft and fluffy that losing anything less than a carrier is pretty much meaningless now.

It's the so called pvper's who have become the true whiney carebears of eve. They wanted and got pvp on easy mode. Now they're sad and confused as to why it sucks. Boo hoo.

Bethany Blaze
Amarr
Cool Story Bro
Posted - 2009.10.06 21:49:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: Nova Fox
I think the word rells is looking for is angry bears.

Carebears turned vicous and live the hybrid life [...]


Today in EVE-Online's PvP circus:

Vicious carebears taught to hulk-dance! That's right, folks! From the deepest, darkest jungles of Jita comes two carebears, untamed, frothing and rabid, ready to tear hybrids a new one. Our fearless PvP team leader is standing right below, whip in hand, for your viewing pleasure.

SEE as they rip and roar through pure veldspar! WATCH as they twirl Hulks around the monsterous and deadly Orca! FEAR as they strangulate the local market between their furry, bloodied paws!

Anhur Shu
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2009.10.06 21:52:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
I wonder if you distinguish between carebear (tear-filled safety blanket hugger) and industrialist (somone who hasn't pvp'ed a day in their life, but is more than willing to take risks and accept losses in wolf/rabit scenarios).


Sadly, most do NOT distinguish, which to me anyway, is the reason I don't normally get involved in these arguments. I realize that most whines about carebears are just that, whines against the ones that DO just want a "safety blanket." The problem is that most of those whiners tend to lump all the NON-PvP profession players into one group...and THAT is stereotyping, prejudiced, etc., which is something that I abhor in RL, and refuse to bring into a fantasy world.

There are safety nets in the real world, there WILL be safety nets in fantasy worlds.....that's life. Deal with it and move on. There are plenty of targets in the game. I don't need everyone in the game to BE a target 100% of the time if I want to shoot someone...although that would be kinda cool Smile

SeismicForce
Terra Incognita
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2009.10.06 21:54:00 - [117]
 

Well Mr. Clever, if you come up with a way for the vast majority of pvp'ers to be able to pay for their ships without doing at least something "carebear-ish" please let us know. Or just make Eve like other games without any death cost - just respawn our ships in the nearest station and I'm sure everybody will pvp all day long. Even better, respawn the ships at the nearest planet so that you can jump back into the action straight away.

Another thing, you so-called "elite" PvPers don't have the time or interest to build anything, so be glad there are so many people willing to do so, and all you have to do is fly somewhere, click twice and you get what you want, without much effort.

Rells
Caldari
Fusillade.
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:09:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Rells on 06/10/2009 22:12:21
Originally by: Downtym
Originally by: Rells
Myth #1: Without the carebears, the economy would be dead.

Sorry, the economy is dead. You have rampant deflation of items resulting largely from CCPs abject failure to manage the money supply in the game.

The NPC purchase of player made or mined goods along with mission bonuses have turned on an infinite fountain of money supply that is akin to a real world government printing worthless money non-stop. Hyper-inflation is the result.

When I started Eve people would be happy to get to their first million isk. Now that is barely enough to buy a decent gun. The economy could be fixed but it would require a drastic shift in monetary policy made by CCP and would **** off many of type 2 carebears.



Nothing really relevant to say except:

I read the above - particularly the bold parts - and am left to conclude that you're a Libertarian. Failure to understand simple economics and all that. Until you can spot the SIMPLE and FUNDAMENTAL error in the above, you're not allowed to argue about the economy anymore.


The error is a minor typo. LOL .. I am sure that is ground breaking and earth shatteirng. i will go fix it for you ok.

EDIT: Oh I love all the comments, going to reply ot those that have substance soon. Must work you know.

Adonis 4174
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:09:00 - [119]
 

So, we're discussing the people who make all their isk playing the market and never undock? Only I can't see where else you find people who fit the definition of 'carebear' used in this thread.

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:17:00 - [120]
 

dunno what do you call a person who only has enough time to play eve for only 30 minutes a day?


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