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blankseplocked Why Eve Carebears are Just Plain Wrong
 
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Barakkus
Posted - 2009.10.07 16:37:00 - [271]
 

What no one seems to understand, if you have a higher risk and cost to manufacture goods and provide services you will end up with hyper inflation, the average player will not be able to afford anything after the majority of the resources currently up for sale are depleted. Once the demand surpasses the supply the prices will skyrocket. Granted you still have the rubber band effect that will bring prices back down after a point, but things in general will end up costing people much, much more than they do now. The universe being a FFA pvp system will essentially kill the market and make most of what you see now for sale, unimaginably expensive.

The whole notion that PvE is what has caused prices to skyrocket is actually wrong. The thing that has caused prices to skyrocket is merely population growth and RMT. The more people playing EVE generates more in game currency...regardless if it's from "NPC" driven "money fountains" or not. If you want to kill the inflation you have to kill off subscriptions and RMT, which in turn will kill off the game due to lack of profitability for CCP.

The problem most people don't see with MMOs and their currency is the fact that the MAIN cause of inflation is not the playstyles, it's the damn people who buy their currencies illegally. Some idiot who has 1 billion he bought from farmer company X for $100 or whatever causes the prices to go up, not people interested in PvE or PvP or whatever. It's true for EVERY MMO. That dirty money ends up in the economy, people start pricing higher because some idiot will pay the higher prices...those people making their money off higher priced items will pay higher prices because they can afford it...If you were to turn EVE into FFA pvp everywhere, you will end up with more people buying isk just to compete with higher prices for everything, driving the prices up even further.

If you want to fix things, figure out how to get rid of RMT period. Then people can go off on their own pvp or pve version of the game and not care about each other anymore. Unfortunately in order to bring RMT down to such a small percentage where it has no effect you would have to reverse ALL transactions of dirty money, even on the innocent players who have had items bought with dirty money. Usually most game companies only do that if they can discern that the seller of x item isn't exactly innocent. It would be a hell of a lot of work to remove the money and return the items to the innocent and really, probably very frustrating for those who are innocent of RMT transactions, especially when you end up reversing all of the cascading transactions derived from the initial dirty money. In the end you'd probably **** off the legit people and start losing subs...

It's a vicious cycle that has nothing to do with playstyle.

What someone wants to do with their time in EVE should have no bearing on what YOU want to do with your time in EVE unless you really just want to grief people, and have unlimited numbers of people to grief. Who cares that Joe Blow wants to kill little red crosses all day, but you want to kill big white boxes? Go find your targets and Joe will go find his. If you're upset that there aren't enough big white boxes floating around to kill then I don't know what to tell you except maybe you probably need to take a break, because you are getting frustrated with the amount of time it takes to find the big white boxes :P

OK, I'm done rambling, probably makes no sense anyways, so just ignore me.

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2009.10.07 16:46:00 - [272]
 

The only thing wrong with EvE carebears is how long they can run level 4 missions in empire without succombing to utter boredom. And the people who make primary account mining characters. Those guys are whack.

You can only rescue the damnsel so many times while retaining mental sanity. The only reason I'm not just declaring EvE PVE sucks horribly is because the new content, wormholes and epic story arcs, has a little bit of meat to it.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 16:49:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
The universe being a FFA pvp system will essentially kill the market and make most of what you see now for sale, unimaginably expensive.
The universe is a FFA PvP environment already, and the market is ridiculously robust as a result… now what?
Quote:
The more people playing EVE generates more in game currency...regardless if it's from "NPC" driven "money fountains" or not.
Ehm… what "or not"? The only way to generate more currency is through NPC faucets…
Quote:
The problem most people don't see with MMOs and their currency is the fact that the MAIN cause of inflation is not the playstyles, it's the damn people who buy their currencies illegally.
No, the main cause of inflation is people gaming the faucets and avoiding the sinks like a plague. Yes, RMT revolves entirely around this concept, but they've just taken carebearing and accelerated it to an extreme. The same effect could be had by simply having more carebears doing the exact same thing to a lesser extent.

Barakkus
Posted - 2009.10.07 16:58:00 - [274]
 

Originally by: Tippia
No, the main cause of inflation is people gaming the faucets and avoiding the sinks like a plague. Yes, RMT revolves entirely around this concept, but they've just taken carebearing and accelerated it to an extreme. The same effect could be had by simply having more carebears doing the exact same thing to a lesser extent.


Notrly, but you're entitled to that opinion. Look at the price of advanced skill books, there's an unavoidable isk sink right there...83+ million for freighters, 45+ million for industrial command ships etc.

I think people's idea that there are these faucets of endless isk is rather over blown. I wish I could find one...It took me 2 years of carebearing to make 1 billion isk, and I've spent most of it getting skill books...on average, I spend MOST of my time in high sec, pveing...partly because I get rather bored roaming empty lowsec for 2 or 3 hours looking for pvp, and it's the fastest way for me to make money. Which, by the way, my income is probably 5-10 mil a week pveing, which I end up spending at the end of it anyways. So I fail to see where this endless fountain of isk is unless you have no life and spend 30-40 hours playing eve in a week.

Aaron Kyoto
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.07 17:41:00 - [275]
 

What the OP poster wants is a galaxy devided between those with power and those without. Those without would have to choose the better part of multiple evils and rent protection from those with the skills and manpower to do so, while people not directly involved in pvp willingly sc**** isk from the bottom of the feeder.

If every sector in the universe became 0.0, most industry of eve would slow or cease, whereas people already used to 0.0 life would continue on as normal. Prices would go up as demand skyrocketted from every system becomes a warzone until those who dont want to adhere to the rest of the pack either quits or finds a small niche where they fit. (pirating or nomadian.)

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2009.10.07 18:34:00 - [276]
 

Only way to get rid of carebaring in the game is to get rid of trading and market abilites topped off with automatically self destructing ships when they're ejected out of and no jettison cans.

Enjoy your new game and lets see if you can play it that way.

Matthew
Caldari
BloodStar Technologies
Posted - 2009.10.07 18:42:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Avon
Which means PvP losses are more meaningful and the remaining producers make more profit.
Would you care to point out why you think this wouldn't be a desireable situation?


The more "meaningful" (i.e. expensive) you make combat losses, the fewer losses per unit time a given player can afford. This will result in them either choosing to engage in fewer fights, or ending up without the equipment to allow them to continue participating in the fights. Yes, the cream of the combat players will keep their loss rate down to a sustainable level, but that won't help them when their targets run out of ships to fight in.

The key area of balance to be found is making PvP losses expensive enough that they are meaningful (i.e. we don't want it to be Unreal Tournament), but not so expensive that you have to work all year for your one week of fun (i.e. we don't want it to be real life).

I'm not saying that the current situation is ideal, but I think zero insurance would push it too far the other way.

Xetal Maelstrom
Posted - 2009.10.07 19:37:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
text


I diagree, I think it's largely the creation of ISK from nothing that causes inflation. You can see the same thing in the real world where a government simply prints more money (the equivalent to the bounties and mission rewards from missions).

There are of course forces that are fighting inflation, mainly the creation of non-isk items of value from nothing (Say, minerals from missions/mining, LP-store items, etc...). The actual inflation depends on the balance between the pro-inflation and pro-deflation sources.

When one or the other gets too far out of control, that is when you have a screwed up economy. With the smaller nature of the game compared to most economies that you're used to dealing with in addition to the ability for the rules to suddenly "change", this can cause instability which further adds to bad things in the economy.

BeyondRelief
Posted - 2009.10.07 19:41:00 - [279]
 

Originally by: Xetal Maelstrom
Originally by: Barakkus
text


I diagree, I think it's largely the creation of ISK from nothing that causes inflation. You can see the same thing in the real world where a government simply prints more money (the equivalent to the bounties and mission rewards from missions).



.. and moon mining ? The largest of all creations of isk from nothing.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 19:50:00 - [280]
 

Originally by: BeyondRelief
.. and moon mining ? The largest of all creations of isk from nothing.
Moon mining doesn't create ISK.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2009.10.07 20:02:00 - [281]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: BeyondRelief
.. and moon mining ? The largest of all creations of isk from nothing.
Moon mining doesn't create ISK.


Sure it does. Just not directly as ISK in your bank account.

More appropriately would be to say it generates wealth out of nothing. Turn on the switch and resources start filling your coffers. Those resources have a value. If you do not convert it into ISK then you would barter it away. ISK (as with any currency) is simply a more efficient means to enable barter.

At the end of the day though it is wealth creation injected into the game from nothing (it just "appears" same as money for bounties just appears).

Xetal Maelstrom
Posted - 2009.10.07 20:05:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: BeyondRelief
.. and moon mining ? The largest of all creations of isk from nothing.


Moon Mining would be a force working towards deflation, not inflation. This is because it creates from nothing an object that people will pay ISK for.

Of course the examples I've provided are overly simplistic. There are other forces involved in the inflation/deflation including ISK that is removed from existence (NPC skillbook sell orders, repairs, clones, jump clones, characters leaving the game) as well as objects being removed from existence (ships going boom, characters leaving the game, ammo being used, fuels used).

BeyondRelief
Posted - 2009.10.07 20:05:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: BeyondRelief
.. and moon mining ? The largest of all creations of isk from nothing.
Moon mining doesn't create ISK.


omglol dude ok. Then lets change mission bounty and reward to collectable loot. But instead of the player having to collect it, it will just keep appearing in his hanger from nothing. sounds fair to me.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 20:11:00 - [284]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 07/10/2009 20:18:20
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Tippia
Moon mining doesn't create ISK.
Sure it does. Just not directly as ISK in your bank account.
No. Moon mining only creates items (moon juice). It does not create ISK. The two should not be confused because they're not the same thing.

We're talking about ISK sinks and faucets here — things that add money to the system, not your personal wallet. No matter what you do to the moon, nothing happens to the ISK supply (although the POS itself is an indirect ISK sink due to NPC-seeded fuel).

The ISK generated by having a nice moon — the ISK that ends up in your wallet — was not created by the mining. It comes from NPC bounties, mission ISK rewards and bonuses, NPC trading, and from insurance, all of which has been filtered through the market and traded back and forth until it someone uses it to buy your moon juice. It's been in the system for ages before it's exchanged for the items you've created out of nowhere through your item faucet.

Barakkus
Posted - 2009.10.07 20:18:00 - [285]
 

Originally by: Hiroshima Jita
The only thing wrong with EvE carebears is how long they can run level 4 missions in empire without succombing to utter boredom. And the people who make primary account mining characters. Those guys are whack.

You can only rescue the damnsel so many times while retaining mental sanity. The only reason I'm not just declaring EvE PVE sucks horribly is because the new content, wormholes and epic story arcs, has a little bit of meat to it.


You almost described me, except my alt accounts is the indy character :P

Trust me, I'm bored to tears a lot, sometimes I will either go offer myself up as a free kill to some mean ole pirate, or I'll go practice scanning down ships (because I still suck at it).

At present I can only take maybe an hour or two of EVE a day, I have other MMOs that I play so I don't exactly play EVE every day either...Given my sporadic playtimes, and the fact that there are SO MANY FAIL CORPS out there, I ended up just making my own. I got tired of joining a corp and they run and hide from wardecs, or they're just a glorified chat room...I honestly don't think I'd be much use to anyone anyways given the amount of time I spend playing anyways.

Trust me, if I get Worlds Collide or Damsel or AE more than once in a week, I go absolutely bat**** with boredom and usually log off. My attention span for EVE has been dwindling with the amount of mind numbing missions I have to do to get to the point where I can anchor a PoS somewhere so I don't have to wait 20-30 days for a research slot...

kongking wang
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.07 20:33:00 - [286]
 

"i know lets remove carebears.

for starters lets remove missions. while were at it we should remove mining. those pesky miners making all the money anyway. now everyone has to pvp. there we go fixed."


for those of you that dont see it im being sarcastic. lets examine this thurther.

part 1 - remove missions.

well for the most part, a hell of alot of pvpers mission to make there isk to be able to fund there pvp habit. removing this would mean they have to take up something else to fund it.

part 2 - remove mining.

remove mining. well that aint gonna happon. not only would it seriously affect mineral costs but were are manufacturers going to get there mins to build the ships pvpers fly. sure they could be seeded on the market but then whats the point. they may as well just remove manufacturing too and just seed the market with ships.

oh wait now how do you suggest people make money now with no missions, no mining and now no manufacturing.now whats the use of alts. no mining, manufacturing alts so oh well dont need that account anymore. bye bye ccp revinue from pvper carebear alts not to mention definately more than half the eve population consisting of mining/missions and manufacturing carebears.

the fact is carebears are here to stay and no ammount of whineing from pvpers is going to change that.

just accept it and move on to improving the game not trying to nerf it to death

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 20:34:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: kongking wang
"i know lets remove carebears.

for starters lets remove missions. while were at it we should remove mining. those pesky miners making all the money anyway. now everyone has to pvp. there we go fixed."
…except that mining is a competition for limited resources (aka PvP).

BeyondRelief
Posted - 2009.10.07 20:40:00 - [288]
 

Edited by: BeyondRelief on 07/10/2009 20:40:25
So to sum you up Tippia: Everything that does not directly create isk is fine since then it has to go through the market(pvp) first to become isk value.
So if instead of ISK mission bountys were not ISK but instead you would receive lets say ammo that you then could trade on the market for isk, that would be ok to you ? This makes it like moon mining.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.07 20:42:00 - [289]
 

Originally by: BeyondRelief
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: BeyondRelief
.. and moon mining ? The largest of all creations of isk from nothing.
Moon mining doesn't create ISK.


omglol dude ok. Then lets change mission bounty and reward to collectable loot. But instead of the player having to collect it, it will just keep appearing in his hanger from nothing. sounds fair to me.


You're confusing wealth with ISK. Moon mining definitely creates a lot of wealth, but it doesn't add new ISK to the game as such.

BeyondRelief
Posted - 2009.10.07 20:48:00 - [290]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: BeyondRelief
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: BeyondRelief
.. and moon mining ? The largest of all creations of isk from nothing.
Moon mining doesn't create ISK.


omglol dude ok. Then lets change mission bounty and reward to collectable loot. But instead of the player having to collect it, it will just keep appearing in his hanger from nothing. sounds fair to me.


You're confusing wealth with ISK. Moon mining definitely creates a lot of wealth, but it doesn't add new ISK to the game as such.


so then as I said lets change all mission bounty to loot that automaticly appears in your hanger. This way bountys dont create ISK anymore but only wealth and all you elite pvp people are happy ?!.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.10.07 20:50:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: BeyondRelief
So to sum you up Tippia: Everything that does not directly create isk is fine since then it has to go through the market(pvp) first to become isk value.
It's not as easy as that, unfortunately. The game needs ISK faucets and sinks, just like it needs item faucets and sinks. Technically, I suppose, we could have a completely closed system — nothing is ever destroyed or lost, only recycled…

…except that would be a thoroughly stale and boring system where hoarding and people leaving would create huge issues, and where stuff forgotten in space in the heat of combat would eventually drain the game of every last unit of trit.

No, the problem is that some activities create vast amounts of ISK and items, but that the activities that destroy ISK and items aren't nearly a popular, and that there are people who want to make that destruction even more difficult to achieve which throws things even further out of balance. This creates supply where there is no demand, or — perhaps more accurately — does not create a demand that balances out the supply.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.07 20:54:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: BeyondRelief
Originally by: Malcanis


so then as I said lets change all mission bounty to loot that automaticly appears in your hanger. This way bountys dont create ISK anymore but only wealth and all you elite pvp people are happy ?!.


Dont confuse Matrix Skye's hilariously dishonest characterisation of me as anything to do with reality.

Flynn Fetladral
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2009.10.07 20:55:00 - [293]
 

Moon mining is like Oil, it's not like Gold. It's value is only relevant to the markets it supports and how it's implemented. If we discovered Fusion power tomorrow then the value of Oil would fall off as new technologies penetrated the market lessing our dependency on Oil.

Blackjack Turner
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2009.10.07 21:32:00 - [294]
 

TL;DR

10/10 Rells!! Excellent troll!!

In another post Rells advised us he discovered he still had some time left on his account after he emoragequit. So he's killing that time and in between meetings by posting in here.

Keep 'em coming!! YARRRR!!

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.10.07 22:58:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: BeyondRelief

so then as I said lets change all mission bounty to loot that automaticly appears in your hanger. This way bountys dont create ISK anymore but only wealth and all you elite pvp people are happy ?!.


And then what do you do with all that loot?
Sell it?
Wouldn't that require people to have ISK to buy it?

Do you see the difference between generating ISK and generating wealth yet?

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.07 23:23:00 - [296]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Dont confuse Matrix Skye's hilariously dishonest characterisation of me as anything to do with reality.

Dishonest mischaracterization of you? You mean the fact you openly admit your disdain for carebears? Please, spare me the drama. Carebears aren't the problem. It's not their whining or their actions that are ruining this game. Fact is your whining along with your click's whining (ie, Le Skunk, DigitalCommunist, et al) are enough to drown the forums in tears. The very same tears you yourself collect.

Most of your posts on any given day spew hate, disdain, dissatisfaction, and envy towards carebears. The funny thing is you don't leave. It obviously makes you emo that carebears have a place in Eve. But you stay and continue to make your life miserable. Why would you even put yourself through that? Do you really hold hope that CCP one day will just drop a significant portion of their bread and butter because that would please a minority? You really think CCP is going to carve out its eye to spite its face?

You're delusional. But keep hoping and wishing :). At least Ki An walked out and left. As much a ****** and spiteful as he was he upped and left. There are very few spiteful anti-carebears left in the forums. But you are so nauseatingly loud that your idiotic whines deafen the forums.

Congrats. At least you succeed in something. o/.


kongking wang
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.08 00:05:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: kongking wang
"i know lets remove carebears.

for starters lets remove missions. while were at it we should remove mining. those pesky miners making all the money anyway. now everyone has to pvp. there we go fixed."
…except that mining is a competition for limited resources (aka PvP).


so by that logic then everything in eve is pvp.technically not missions howether how many people play the market based on missions loot/salvage. pvper alts do them for fast cash to fund pvp. rig builders do them for salvage so they can play the market. how many manufacturers and traders buy mission loot competing against each other for better prices for those resources.

so what mission runners make alot of money but they provide alot of pvp content as a result. sure most is market based but eve is after all a game primarely based around the market.

Esu Nahalas
Yote Patrol
Posted - 2009.10.08 00:20:00 - [298]
 

After all the years I've spent watching these forums, I'm surprised that someone who claims expertise in this matter (the op) doesn't even acknowledge that some people are carebears due to technological or time constraints.

And if the op fails to do that simple task, where else does he fail?

Tbear
Cave Bear Mining
Posted - 2009.10.08 00:56:00 - [299]
 

I am a carebear and have happily been one since beta. In the last week I have spent time in wormholes, epic arc missions, mined 7 mil trit + on four nights, built three Harbingers/Anathemas/omens (each), traveled through hi/low sec, made millions on bounties, spent all of it and generally had a great time in eve. You'd think that after all these years I'd get bored and go play something else...are you kidding!!! Eve is the best damn game anyone has ever produced Very HappyShockedCool

Has Eve had it's problems, yup! Has CCP fixed/broke/enhanced Eve, you bet. But no matter how many times they change the game because the players asked for it, we adapt to the playing style each of us enjoys. Me, more carebearing and I love it!

Hey Rells, great post and can I have your stuff.....ugh

Rells
Caldari
Fusillade.
Posted - 2009.10.08 03:40:00 - [300]
 

Originally by: Esu Nahalas
After all the years I've spent watching these forums, I'm surprised that someone who claims expertise in this matter (the op) doesn't even acknowledge that some people are carebears due to technological or time constraints.

And if the op fails to do that simple task, where else does he fail?


Quite the contrary. There are many alliance players with time constraints. What the carebears fail to realize is that without the protection of the game, the world wouldnt end. With those carebears now working for player run kingdoms and protected by player run nalvies, they would be able to create their own markets and items.

In essence the carebears are socialists. They demand that the game provide for them, look after them, protect them and dguarantee their life. By contrast pvpers make the world for themselves. They set their own destiny and look to accomplish things for themselves.

And that is the essential difference. Carebearing is easy and people are short circuited to do easy. However there are tons of games that do erasy. Carebears migrate from game to game and blow through the NPC content, complain a bit and then move on to do the same to the next game. By contrast the PvPer generates content through political intrigue, conquest and war.

Once upon a time in eve, the news was filled with the current events of the latest wars. Today, it is packed with CCP generated fiction because the real content generation has been all but supplanted.


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