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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.10.06 12:30:00 - [1]
 

I know this is probably useless, but: is there any chance of some dev looking into defender missiles at some point? They haven't been worth fitting on ships for, dunno, 3+ years now (and weren't that great before that, either). With the current missile speeds and the fact that they only work against targetted missiles in the first place makes them a bad joke.

Fix them to actually work, maybe let them also target any hostile missile (either guided or unguided)? That would both make them useable, and let a ship act as an anti-missile battery if needed.

Of course, the whole idea of you needing a launcher slot in order to have missile defense is borked. Maybe scrap the whole concept, and replace it with an anti-missile battery (usable in any high slot)? Or something.

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.10.06 16:37:00 - [2]
 

If you made anti missile defenses more effective, you'd need to boost missiles.

Missiles are generally decent at the moment (excluding the terrible options for frigate missiles) but if everyone could throw a cheap and effective anti missile module into any spare hi slot, that would change.

DeadlyAvenger
Burning Napalm
Posted - 2009.10.06 17:11:00 - [3]
 

how about have defenders change from missile defence to bomb defence

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.10.06 17:22:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: DeadlyAvenger
how about have defenders change from missile defence to bomb defence
well... 1 HAM drake would nullify multiple squads of bombers...

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.10.06 17:27:00 - [5]
 

NPC defender missiles will shoot your missiles even if the missile isn't targetting that ship - player missiles need this ability, and then a decent buff so that you could seriously consider deploying anti-missile ships in fleets. Real world carrier groups have ships that are primarily there to intercept incoming missiles.

Tracking disruptors are the anti turret weapon, defender missiles should be the anti missile weapon.


DeadlyAvenger
Burning Napalm
Posted - 2009.10.06 17:32:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Originally by: DeadlyAvenger
how about have defenders change from missile defence to bomb defence
well... 1 HAM drake would nullify multiple squads of bombers...


so have it take 10 defenders or whatever to pop a bomb...

Rahjadan Shardur
Minmatar
Mafia Redux
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:16:00 - [7]
 

i think it might be enough if we would just get a defence launcher (maybe without the need of a launcher slot) that is an active high slot module and lauches its missiles automaticaly when turned on. by getting rid of the need to actualy turn on your module whenever an enemy missile is in flight (wich due to activation delay is fairly hard) we would have probably fixed the biggest problem.

alternatively you could just script the launchers to defensive so they would only take in defenders but could be turned on into an activated defensive mode.

Slobodanka
Posted - 2009.10.07 07:47:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Originally by: DeadlyAvenger
how about have defenders change from missile defence to bomb defence
well... 1 HAM drake would nullify multiple squads of bombers...


Then kill that drake before you use bombers. Besides, bombers as they currently are can not be caught unless pilot makes (stupid) mistake. There is also no counter to bombs (smartbombing doesn't work because timing it is too tricky for real life use). There is also no counter to the bomber itself apart from putting your own fleet in a large bubble from which bombers can not escape (but your fleet is also stuck in bubble and no one wants that).
AOE weapons and modules do not uncloak bombers (at least on Sisi; tried it with smartbombs and ECM burst. They do take damage from smartbombs but they still hold cloak).

I'd say the best thing to do would be to have targeted counter to bombs. When bomb is launched you have to lock it and then... fire defender at it or some new anti-missile module with/without ammo. That way a properly structured fleet (Big stuff supported by medium and small stuff) can easily counter SBs while just a group of snipe BSs shooting over 200km will die horribly if they don't bring light support with them.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.10.07 09:02:00 - [9]
 

The major obstacles to using defenders that they only activate on ordnance fired at the defender user himself.

So a Drake can do diddly against bombers as it takes 2-3 defenders per torpedo I think and if bombs are not fired at him but a gang mate they will be untouched.

If this was changed we would see passive Drakes shielding entire gangs which would be too much of a Caldari hit. Perhaps if they were only able to target weapons fire from one or two enemies at a time.

Have to admit I don't really think about defenders that often if at all, they are way down there along with regenerative plating Smile

Peryner
University of Caille
Posted - 2009.10.07 12:09:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Slobodanka
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Originally by: DeadlyAvenger
how about have defenders change from missile defence to bomb defence
well... 1 HAM drake would nullify multiple squads of bombers...


Then kill that drake before you use bombers. Besides, bombers as they currently are can not be caught unless pilot makes (stupid) mistake.


funny, my sniper HAC can catch a bomber in about 2 seconds.
but then again I don't play afk.

AbudSeab
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:09:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: AbudSeab on 07/10/2009 13:09:53
Originally by: skye orionis
NPC defender missiles will shoot your missiles even if the missile isn't targetting that ship - player missiles need this ability, and then a decent buff so that you could seriously consider deploying anti-missile ships in fleets. Real world carrier groups have ships that are primarily there to intercept incoming missiles.

Tracking disruptors are the anti turret weapon, defender missiles should be the anti missile weapon.




missiles actually suffer from being not desired in a lot of pvp fleets, due to weak performance or ignorance on how to use them (not discussing it here). But the real fact is that a lot of FC don't like missiles in his fleets :-(

If you create a anti-general-missiles boat you are going to kill missiles definitely ! ! !

Besides current sad situation of missiles to pvp the ideia sounds pretty nice, but only after missiles got a boost in order to make missiles worth in fleet and them you can have a anti-missiles boat to counter boost.

And RL comparison aren't good at this issue: Because if you take a look at modern combat, projectiles of any kind are almost dead, they exists only in hand weapons and small artillery vehicles for close combat. So if EVE follows current state of war tech all cruiser and up ships should use missiles exclusively and projectiles will exists only for small close combat.

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:26:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: skye orionis
Tracking disruptors are the anti turret weapon, defender missiles should be the anti missile weapon.



Turrets have tracking computers, tracking links, and tracking enhancers. Missiles have none of these options. It would be inappropriate to boost such a cheap and easy method of anti-missile defence given the current state of missiles.

If missiles were the weapon of choice in fleet fights (instead of largely unfavored because of the delayed damage) and you saw gangs of shield RR missile ships instead of armor RR turret BS, we might look at boosting defender missiles as a way of bringing down missile performance.

But currently missile performance doesn't need to be brought down at all. In fact, it needs to be brought up. These are solutions without a problem.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.10.07 13:46:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 07/10/2009 13:47:44
Originally by: Ulstan

Turrets have tracking computers, tracking links, and tracking enhancers. Missiles have none of these options.


Yes, because missiles don't need any of those options. They don't need to worry about things like tracking. The above modules actually compensate for serious weaknesses of turrets vs missiles, not boost turrets as such.

But sure, I wouldn't mind new modules to boost stuff like missile explosion velocity, for instance.

...as for that someone's "missile ships are not good in pvp" comment... huh? I see missile ships in pvp all the time, and they work great. Sure, they don't work well when sniping (duh). And no, a Raven doesn't work well in an armor RR gang... but that has everything to do with shield tank, and zip to do with missiles. Missiles don't need to worry about TDs, they always hit, they can switch damage types, they typically have huge effective range... what's not to love?

And yes, I (also) fly missile ships. And yes, in pvp. Twisted Evil

Back to defenders: they require a highslot and a specialized skill. In addition, they also require a launcher hardpoint. And they effectively do nothing useful. I would like to see that fixed. Somehow.

A Ingus
Posted - 2009.10.07 16:25:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Turrets have tracking computers, tracking links, and tracking enhancers. Missiles have none of these options.


Not entirely true, there is the target painter which does more for missiles with the current mechanics than for turrets.

As for defenders. Yes they are worthless, and pretty much should be removed from the game or made effective. Drones can be shot and killed, turrets tracking disrupted. Missiles have one huge advantage in the game in that there is no practical defense other than tank them if you can. Missiles do not need any buffing. If there was an effective defender missile, or new anti-missile defense system added to the game then we might have to talk missile buff, or some mod as an anti-anti-missile defense system.Razz

AbudSeab
Posted - 2009.10.07 16:37:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: A Ingus
Missiles have one huge advantage in the game in that there is no practical defense other than tank them if you can.


Have you tried to move while under missile fire Confused Sometimes it's all you need to do tank them Laughing

but seriously now, I agree that defenders should be fixed or removed, the problem with fixing is that missiles (being ok or not now) will need to be looked also.

Komi Toran
Posted - 2009.10.07 16:43:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Komi Toran on 07/10/2009 17:02:32
Well, defenders did receive a stealth buff with weapon grouping. I have actually used defenders successfully in PvP situations when I flew a BB (back when SBs used cruise missiles... I think I just explained how). In the bad-ol-days before weapon grouping, having multiple defenders in space at a time gave you no benefit, as they would all lock on to the same missile, and when that single missile was hit, the remaining defenders would go sailing off into oblivion. So, you needed to wait until the first defender impacted before launching another. This made defenders only useful against, well... stealth bombers, as the low number of missiles, large distances, and speed advantage of the rockets made them perfectly capable of completely eliminating the SB's damage potential.

Now, with people grouping their missiles, defenders are more useful, as all of those grouped missiles come out as a single item, which can be hit by multiple defenders, with each strike reducing the damage potential of the missile ball. So, with a couple rocket or standard assault launchers, you can seriously impact the amount of dps coming off a Cerb or Drake.

Still, though, if your opponent isn't grouping his missiles, you're screwed. So, CCP still needs to make those things acquire new targets while in flight. However, at that point they will probably become overpowered. I think, if CCP ever gets around to making defenders work properly, they will need to adjust their damage downwards, and maybe give them specific launchers so you can't shut down a Caldari HAC with just two modules.

Edit: Perhaps a simpler fix - defender missiles only intercept missiles launched from a target ship, instead of missiles that are approaching you (but still autotarget the one closest to you). I think that change would be enough to see defenders used in fleet battles, and might encourage more creative tactics, as you will get picket ships trying to arrange themselves around the enemy so they all lock missiles at different stages.

Kassa Daito
Capital Construction Research
Pioneer Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.07 17:44:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Komi Toran
maybe give them specific launchers

I like this. A specific highslot launcher with an option to fire defenders at a target and have them intercept any missiles fired by that target regardless of who the target is firing at.

It'd work better if you also give missiles modules to increase various stats using mid slots and some mid slot modules that reduce various stats of missiles (I think explosion velocity or explosion radius would be the most commonly boosted/reduced). I think you'd see a lot more variety and use of missile boats in PvP but they'd need to take a bit of a hit in PvE somehow (maybe more balanced resists on rats?) to make up for the new options.

Interesting idea but it would require a lot of balancing.

Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
Posted - 2009.10.07 22:44:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: DeadlyAvenger
how about have defenders change from missile defence to bomb defence

This.

Anyone claiming that missiles are somehow overpowered and need a counter, needs to have their head examined.

We have a situation were Defenders serve no real purpose, and a weapon which has no real counter ( except warping out which is pretty much a common counter for all weapon types Rolling Eyes ).

Changing Defenders to an Anti-bomb platform makes perfect sense. Sure it needs to be balanced, one hi-slot shouldn't be able to counter an entire SB fleet, but the idea is sound.

This would also give launcher slots some potential love. Allowing them to specialize in a role on the battlefield, to balance out the fact that they are currently pretty much a no-go for another specialized type of warfare, sniping.

I'm sure Minmatar pilots would love the idea of expanding the versatility of their ships even further, by replacing some un-bonused launchers slots with "Anti-Bomb" modules.



ServantOfMask
Minmatar
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.08 12:16:00 - [19]
 

umm defenders don't need a dedicated turret.

pro-tip fit an arbalest rocket launcher and load with defenders works wonders for vomiting out useless missiles. tiny grid use and fast RoF what more can you ask for?

what they DO need is to fire automatically and at any missile launched at gang.
also if the range is long enough there is no reason why my defenders are not being fired at the same bloody hostile missile until it pops.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.08 12:40:00 - [20]
 

defenders against missiles could be a tech 3 ammo and weapon

Dulas
Caldari
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.10.08 18:37:00 - [21]
 

I think defender missiles should provide a defense bonus to the ship that is using them, against all damage platforms. Kind of like a chaff dispenser. It would still use defender missiles, and the graphic would be some sort of aoe affect either on or near your ship.

Not sure what type of defense bonus it could be, but maybe a reduced sig. Thoughts on this?

Komi Toran
Posted - 2009.10.08 21:50:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: ServantOfMask
umm defenders don't need a dedicated turret.

Perhaps not, but it is obvious you need to read the thread. When you do, you will realize why some here think so-called "pro-tip" is actually the very reason defenders would need to be placed on a dedicated turret if some of the suggestions here were implemented. You might also want to look up the word "balance." Once you have completed this task, we can debate the issue on the merits.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.08 22:31:00 - [23]
 

balance perhaps the caldari to start with should have been a third "beam" type of weapon rather than missiles

ServantOfMask
Minmatar
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.09 07:44:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Komi Toran
Originally by: ServantOfMask
umm defenders don't need a dedicated turret.

Perhaps not, but it is obvious you need to read the thread. When you do, you will realize why some here think so-called "pro-tip" is actually the very reason defenders would need to be placed on a dedicated turret if some of the suggestions here were implemented. You might also want to look up the word "balance." Once you have completed this task, we can debate the issue on the merits.


well my snooty friend.. i DID read each post on this. and some actually had some good points, however defenders needing a dedicated delivery system is not one of them. there are a few issues with defenders but that is NOT one of them. if you wish to add 3 launchers (one per hull size) and 3 defender sizes to go with them you will waste effort on 2 each since they will always remain unused. who in their right mind would fit a torp/cruise sized defender system on a bs when a rocket or light missile can be used instead? once you start to require that ships ONLY use their size modules you will have opened up a pandora's box of **** posting and flames the like this game has never seen before.

i still stand firmly on my position that all defenders need is to be auto active, fire as many defenders at one missile as needed to destroy it (or scale dps delivered by damage missiles down) and MAYBE allow your defenders to guard your Gang mates.

appearance i am the only one who actually USED defenders for a long time.

Slobodanka
Posted - 2009.10.09 12:17:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Peryner
Originally by: Slobodanka
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
Originally by: DeadlyAvenger
how about have defenders change from missile defence to bomb defence
well... 1 HAM drake would nullify multiple squads of bombers...


Then kill that drake before you use bombers. Besides, bombers as they currently are can not be caught unless pilot makes (stupid) mistake.


funny, my sniper HAC can catch a bomber in about 2 seconds.
but then again I don't play afk.

funny, my SB warps away in less than a second after releasing it's bomb.Rolling Eyes

Dulas
Caldari
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.10.09 21:09:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Dulas
I think defender missiles should provide a defense bonus to the ship that is using them, against all damage platforms. Kind of like a chaff dispenser. It would still use defender missiles, and the graphic would be some sort of aoe affect either on or near your ship.

Not sure what type of defense bonus it could be, but maybe a reduced sig. Thoughts on this?



Either I am way off the mark of what people want out of defender missiles, or people are stunned by my Nobel Prize soloution Shocked to comment.


 

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