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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.05 19:41:00 - [121]
 

Instead of fixing broken supply with alchemy and salvage conversion, it would be more fun for players if there were alternative sources for the materials in short supply with new game mechanics to harvest those sources.

Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
Posted - 2009.10.05 19:43:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Armoured C
Why are people saying "what will be the point of attacking other peoples space if it all the same?"


Where are all the alliances that attack people for fun , why does there need to be a reason to attack someone. Doesn't anyone attack for the lolz anymore , has the NAP train grown so big in 0.0 that you have effectivly made it boring for your self?


Name 3 massive wars that are happening in 0.0 at the mo were they are fighting for sov this week. With the amount of 0.0 space there should be at least 2 big sov wars happening all the time.


Moon mining has made the high paid areas worth fighting for but now that they are gone you ask what is worth fighting for? This is eve you don't need a bloody reason do it anyway. Fight because they called you fail. Fight because they called your leadership. Fight because your socks turned pink in the wash. Your free from pos bashing which made sov wars so boring, it changed to more small fleet war with the taking and distruction of small modules and more income for people in 0.0

Hell fight over there awesome hello kitty plush toy but my god fight over something as your nap ttain is making 0.0 stale and boring



Rant over/


This man possesses the secret underlying why eve is a good game.

If we were all rational about it, there is basically no reason to pvp ever. Moon goo pays the top levels of the alliances. We all know that as a regular everyday pvper, you are not going to see a singly dime of the isk that you were fighting for. Thats life.

We pvp, because its fun. Not becuase its profitable. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that only a tiny fraction of pvpers can cover their costs from pvp lewts.

So yes.

People will pick fights with each other, because thats exactly what eve is about. People are ****s and people like carebear tears. Carebears in 0.0 = WINsome tears and much greater ****ing potential.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.10.05 19:53:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Jacob Mei
Quote:
You will be able to purchase and install upgrades in an infrastructure hub. These upgrades will unlock and add additional resources into your system, such as new hidden belts or encounters to complexes or escalation sites for you to find, thus increasing your potential diffuse income streams and theoretical member resource capacity of each system as a result.


So your basicly buying naturally occuring objects..... huh?!


No, I think you are buying the ability to find naturally occurring objects that are currently impossible to find.

I know, semantics.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.10.05 19:58:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 05/10/2009 20:04:48
Even if I hadn't read the blog, I can tell this is going to be good just from who's whining Laughing

Especially ElvenLord's (#109) bitter tears that his gold will stop flowing, and he'll still have to pay for the same amount of POS (with the same amount of work) for a much smaller reward makes this renew my confidence in CCP.

Gunship (#110) states it well. This is how 0.0 SHOULD be! I remember how my whole corp back then would drop everything they were doing and jump into their haulers when a hauler spawn was found. THAT was the gold of those times, and it required people to ACTIVELY work together!

There's of.c. still things that can go wrong, and I'd especially like some figures to how areas will 'degrade' again if not used, but things are looking good....
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin (below)
how exactly do you propose to make one 0.0 system able to realistically support 50-100 people making more isk/minerals/whatever than they could by hanging out in empire with a missioning jumpclone?

Very good question... Personally I'm hoping to an L4 nerf Cool
Making the resources available could be pretty easy as it 'just' require adding to the exploration engine. Tweak the number of 'roid belts and encounters appearing in developed systems, and you could be well on the way.
Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin (below)
And at #124: that was also probably long before one had the reliable funds source that is solo L4 missions, right? ;)

(gawd, I hate that 5 minute crappiness)
They were there, but didn't pay as well and were much tougher (pre-rig time). There were no JC's either. Ratting would earn you way more than L4's....

Ezekiel Sulastin
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.10.05 19:58:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 05/10/2009 20:01:21
Originally by: Normin Bates
So....

Biggest tears are from (so far)

1. CVA and Friends.
2. MM.
3. Goons.

General consensus from the tear shedders is: Wahhhhhh. No fair! We did all this stuff and have gotten used to it and now it's being changed! We can't adapt. No fair CCP!


Flush your eleventy billion down the drain. Stop crying 'cause you might hafta do some things different.

Adapt or Die.


General consensus from the strawman arguers is the above. Isn't it nice not having to come up with a constructive argument because you can rely on general hatred and sheep-bleat-esque catch phrases?

Here's my question for CCP - how exactly do you propose to make one 0.0 system able to realistically support 50-100 people making more isk/minerals/whatever than they could by hanging out in empire with a missioning jumpclone? I'm guessing agents aren't the answer, but you're not forthcoming with alternate details.

And at #124: that was also probably long before one had the reliable funds source that is solo L4 missions, right? For these new improvements to bring alliance income, there has to be a good ability to make individual/small group income, else tenants/etc. will never come ;)

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.05 20:00:00 - [126]
 

lets see u control 5-10 systems u have these upgraded, sites despawn and respawn fair enough. The big kicker here is if u want to move just search youre nearest wormhole to another 00 system and go raid someone

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2009.10.05 20:05:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 05/10/2009 20:45:25

Activity based System improvement is great and I'm very glad these "upgrades" can't simply be bought with ISK. Better space should be "earnt".

My concern though is that CCP seem to be forgetting that the additional people you are trying to push/pull into 0.0 from High Sec are often very reluctant to risk indiviual ships let alone risk their corporation and alliance's assets.

Question What new incentives will there be to moving out to 0.0 for Empire based corps and alliances, that dont exist already? It has been 3 blogs now and no real details.

Reducing the footprint of large alliances will not be reducing their "Dominion" or influence. So potentially bigger rat bounties and better mining means bugger all if your flag, assets and upgrades can all be erased by "bigger" entities in one destructive rampage.

Question I'd also just like to know why you at CCP expect Empire corps and alliances to suddenly somehow post Dominion say "well 0.0 is now worth the risk of being totally wiped out" if you're not actually providing any new or additional ways of mitigating the risks of 0.0?

To me it seems you at CCP think your players are Lemmings and will just keep plodding out to 0.0 repeatedly to get stomped upon (which would happen given the bullying, insecure and greedy, covetous nature of practically all 0.0 'holding' alliances).

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2009.10.05 20:22:00 - [128]
 

Quote:
We hope you better understand that our goal is to allow each solar system in null sec to have the potential to hold many more people per system in material resource terms (perhaps 50-100 when fully upgraded).

I dont get this. While sure we can now do that... mining op for example could easily put 100 people in the system. Mining generally doesnt happen.. not because of the ore... but because of security and volume. wormholes themselves really arent upgrading the system... infact moreso annoying unless you can sort of lock down a permanent wormhole. iow have a pos with applicable wormhole tech module and same on the 0.0 side with appropriate sov upgrade to be able to online. This then creates permanent hole to that specific hole. The hole itself being unprotected... not at any pos. Anyone being able to get thru.

If not that... I cant see there to be upgrades getting you to like 300 asteroid belts. For ratting. Which kinda leaves cosmic sigs and anomalies. Which then leaves you with the... how devalued is deadspace and faction stuff gunna get after this? Having constant cosmic sigs in the system?

If not that... yaaay pirate mission agents. Epic win. sov upgrade to get blood agent over there. then anyone can run regardless of blood standings. New way to recover bad standings for the highsec dwellers? Station owners being able to take a tax of the agent. wreck lewts end up being reprocessed for a tax. etc etc. That right there would bring in big isk, people, and is pretty boundless.

cant really think of much else?

DMF KingBob
Posted - 2009.10.05 20:33:00 - [129]
 

the dev blog sounds good becouse t2 insutrie needs radical changes

i am very happy to read this

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.10.05 20:34:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 05/10/2009 20:41:50
Quote:
1. My concerns are supported by evidence and are therefore useful (see previous posts). Your opinion is bereft of any supporting evidence and fails to address major concerns previously made by others. Therefore, your opinion is not useful in the analysis of whether Domion Theory will match Dominion Reality.


Actually, your concerns are based on your personal opinion. I have read again (yes, I read them when they were originally posted as well) the posts you referenced. All that you have presented is your view of how you think Dominion will affect your particular slice of NRDS space, as well as diverging into what you think would be necessary steps to make all of 0.0 space (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but many of your proposed necessary steps would have dramatic effects on game play in Empire as well) a better and more populated place.

Now, of those opinions you expressed previously (and answers you demanded) please note that a large percentage of them have in fact already been answered directly... many of those responses actually confirming that you are getting what you thought was necessary. As for the rest, you have already been told that more detailed dev blogs will be forthcoming that focus on specific issues, at least those issues that relate to Dominion.

As for "major concerns previously expressed by others" you have previously linked directly to the posts made by Aralis. The response I gave above refers to his concerns as well.

By the way, you might let him know that making statements such as...
Quote:
I'm going to point out my experience for this as I'm posting big talk. I've been playing Eve continuously since pre launch. I strongly suspect I've spent more time playing Eve than anyone on the planet

... does not make his opinion fact. Or perhaps I should say that if it does it so, then he and I should sit down and recreate EVE from its roots as I have been playing every bit as long as he has (just in a bigger league for the most part). In fact, you'd be surprised how many of us beta players are still around, some of them in this thread actually. The point being, playing EVE since beta does NOT make his opinion fact. No more than it makes my opinion fact, or anyone elses for that matter.

Quote:
2. If CCP don't want meaningful feedback and useful criticism of their game that's their choice. However, their history of ignoring player criticism has resulted in a number of failed patches. I see you are a hypocrite on the personal attack issue.


Since many of the points you and Aralis made have been directly addressed, I would say it is pretty apparent they have listened to you. They just may not always agree with you, or your vision of what needs to be done may not sync very well with other aspects of their game design, but you haven't been tuned out (no matter how much you complain otherwise).

By the way, I had not launched any personal attacks at you. However you have called my opinion worthless (when it conflicts with your own or Aralis) and not useful. Interesting definition of personal attack you have there. Hypocrisy indeed.

Quote:
3. I'm attacking your opinion/argument, not you. There is a huge difference. The former is productive and how meaningful debate is conducted, the latter is not.


I'm not here to debate or argue, we Beta players are here to enlighten the masses remember. WinkLaughing
Seriously though, I don't need a lesson in debate from someone who can't keep the definitions of "Opinion" and "Fact" straight.

Quote:
4. Colors changed, thanks.


No problem, and might I say that yellow really brings out the color of your eyes.








xXxCCxXx
Ray of Matar Assembly
Posted - 2009.10.05 20:44:00 - [131]
 

yarr... kill big alliances!!

ceaon
Posted - 2009.10.05 20:47:00 - [132]
 

the only things that matter is whit this changes alliances will afford to reimburse ships ?


no reimburse program i fly frigates LaughingLaughingLaughing

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.10.05 20:49:00 - [133]
 

prophesying chromium disaster and resulting but justified caldari complaints in an official thread

SIR PRIME
Minmatar
FireStar Inc
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.05 20:52:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: SIR PRIME on 05/10/2009 21:25:03
Edited by: SIR PRIME on 05/10/2009 20:55:39
Just in context I’m one of the outpost managers in CVA and have also built/funded quite a few of the outposts in Providence personally. I’ve been running outposts for over three years. I therefore have a fair idea of what is needed to run an area like this and its income as I can literally call up the outpost/corp wallets at any second and have a fair few spreadsheets I regularly download data to and which then change it into meaningful information. That information stretches back a long time.

Our area of space is hands down the most occupied area of 0.0 in Eve and many people have wondered why on earth we’re not exactly overjoyed by Dominion when CCP and others have held us and our allies up as shining examples of what can be done in 0.0.

Our argument is that essentially CCP don’t understand what we did in 0.0 and why and have therefore completely misunderstood some basic income premises.

Hence here’s a primer:

CVA is a member of a group of Holders (Libertas Fidelitas, Cold Steel, Paxton Federation, Sev3rance and Aegis Militia). A condition of holding sovereignty in areas we control is that we each abide by a set of rules, goals and aspirations.

The public elements are available on our website (http://www.cva-eve.org/) but the key 3 are:

- Greater Providence is open for transit, commerce, faction bounty hunting and asteroid mining to all pilots, corporations, and alliances who obey the law.

- No pilot, corporation or alliance shall conduct piracy.

- No pilot, corporation or alliance shall initiate an attack against another unless that pilot, corporation or alliance is expressly wanted on the Deliverance KOS List.

Those three are the primary elements underpinning what is now called NRDS – Not Red Don’t Shoot. We essentially created an area where anyone who didn’t commit piracy could come to rat, mine explore and experience 0.0.

The important thing to us was always that we held and developed the region for the Amarrian Empire in the hope that one day they would accept it as a fully fledged region of the Empire. We see ourselves very literally as Holders.

That last reason has driven everything we’ve done in providence and its what CCP misunderstand. For them roleplaying is just an add on extra – for us it drives our every action, goal and aspiration.

We live in what is generally considered the poorest 0.0 region of Eve. An area loved by newcomers to 0.0 and raiders. Raiders get targets, everyone else gets to experience 0.0. Win-Win. Even our local superpower reds like AAA we often quite appreciate as they’re like old friends gone bad that come calling each night to visit. ;)

I can factually say that the income we as Holders receive from our control of the most populated region of 0.0 is minimal. Its complete peanuts next to the amount we’ve poured into this prospective region of the Amarrian Empire. A huge number of people however earn a much better income here.

There is however a minimal link between their income and ours.

Docking taxes, repair fees, clone fees, office rental are the direct ones we get with extras via broker fees and slot rental. The only indirect ratting or mining income we receive is refining tax. We do have a very developed market however – some prices even compete with Jita which isn’t that surprising bearing in mind the % of the eve population based here (often our intel channel passes 1,000 pilots online).

Sound great doesn’t it except for a few very obvious flaws to income such as miners compressing ore and ratters moving their rat loot to high sec to refine as we’re so close to empire.

Sucks to be a benign and benevolent group of heroes doesn’t it. ;)

Lets look cost side. Providence has eighty four systems and forty three outposts. Yes I said forty three. You can see them here if you don’t believe me:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/region/Providence


SIR PRIME
Minmatar
FireStar Inc
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.05 20:58:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: SIR PRIME on 05/10/2009 21:24:23
Quite a few are even upgraded and we built forty one of them as Ushra’Khan gifted us their two. Ok they might not see it quite like that but a few of their old school still have a sense of humour (You still owe me a chilled Guinness Ugleb btw!).

I’ve funded nine so I’m a good case study and example.

My income from providence is ….. zero.

I’m an industrialist and there’s very little reason for 0.0 industry this close to high sec as CCP have never really conquered the risk vs reward paradigm. Essentially the rest of eve has been buying my products and has helped me build nine outposts here. I’d particularly like to thank everyone in the Minmatar block for their donations to the cause. ;)

You see here we get back to the roleplaying reason for developing this area of the Amarrian Empire. We’ve ploughed an insane amount of isk into providence in pursuit of a dream and that dream wasn’t to screw neutrals or raise tax income. If you ask most CVA our dream, would be for CCP to turn Providence into a NPC run part of the Amarrian Empire. Its just CCP don’t truly believe in the sandbox or in empowering players to play as they want – they want us to play in an “approved” manner. They talk a good game though about “Emergence” as a cover for that. They’ve decided that the play style that helped develop the most populated region of Eve isn’t on their approved list as we don’t want to screw others for a living. Good is not fashionable to CCP and they like to sneer and laugh about it at fan fests.

But here’s a question that we’d really like an answer.

Why would the most developed region in eve want to do any of the economic upgrades?

There is minimal link between the income of ratters and explorers in Providence and ours. That’s exaggerated by the fact that WE not the ratters and explorers will pay the fee for those systems to CCP. The most pressing problem for us is that Providence is the most crowded region in 0.0 – you can’t enter a system without finding it full of people. The vast majority generate no income or tax for the owners of that space.

Mining – ok here’s one more attractive upgrade for us except our region has such appalling ores that we’ll never get enough miners in here to upgrade it so that there are better ores. There’s a horrible circle there.

Ratting – well this one is amazingly easy for us to upgrade but why would we want to spend out on these upgrades as it generates no income for us as we’re defending Providence not ratting it.

Exploring – I haven’t managed to run one since I joined CVA as they’re always full. Again there’s very little link between the people exploring and the funding of Providence.

Wormholes – The very last thing we want in Providence is more exits and entrances to our space. If our locals are in wormholes they’re not defending Providence and every wormhole is a potential threat. Wormhole income is NOT Providence income so why would we every pay higher fees and invest in these upgrades so that people can earn greater income elsewhere?

The upgrades that might be more meaningful like true sec upgrades or more belts seem to be off the cards.

The presumed answer from CCP is: treaties!

Except treaties aren’t coming with Dominion and NRDS is based on the line I quoted above:

- Greater Providence is open for transit, commerce, faction bounty hunting and asteroid mining to all pilots, corporations, and alliances who obey the law.

If treaties are the only answer then quite simply Dominion has killed NRDS as Eve Online knows it because we’d have to pre-vet and agree a treaty with every one of our daily thousands of visitors.

RIP Sandbox 1st December 2009



AstroBoy1
Gallente
Posted - 2009.10.05 21:08:00 - [136]
 

However for the rest of 0.0 where everyone in our space is part of the same alliance. Players pay corp taxes for ratting, corps pay fees to alliance, alliance buys upgrades. Moon mining pays for everything else, we just need to mine more and more and more.

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.05 21:20:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: AstroBoy1
However for the rest of 0.0 where everyone in our space is part of the same alliance. Players pay corp taxes for ratting, corps pay fees to alliance, alliance buys upgrades. Moon mining pays for everything else, we just need to mine more and more and more.


Um, why bothering upgrading your space? It will be peanuts for income on alliance level...

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2009.10.05 21:26:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: SIR PRIME

Stuff



I don't understand why CVA complains so much? From what I see you are one of the alliances that will benefit most from these changes!

If your goal is to keep space, but not having to pay for it I see two options:

1) Let corps/alliances hire space from you (single systems) for free of charge, under the requirement that they develop said system for their own money and let neutrals in.

2) Develop a few of your core systems, and require a tax or rent for those that wish to live in there, while those living in the undeveloped systems still don't have to pay anything. This gives people a choise.

Now you don't make any significant money from any of these suggestions, but from what you write you don't seem to make any significant money now either.

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.05 21:31:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II

I don't understand why CVA complains so much? From what I see you are one of the alliances that will benefit most from these changes!

If your goal is to keep space, but not having to pay for it I see two options:

1) Let corps/alliances hire space from you (single systems) for free of charge, under the requirement that they develop said system for their own money and let neutrals in.

2) Develop a few of your core systems, and require a tax or rent for those that wish to live in there, while those living in the undeveloped systems still don't have to pay anything. This gives people a choise.

Now you don't make any significant money from any of these suggestions, but from what you write you don't seem to make any significant money now either.


Simply because the new system is very unfriendly to 'open' space not generating income to pay upkeep for sovereignty that is needed to get an outpost running...

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.10.05 21:35:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Ukucia on 05/10/2009 21:36:18
Originally by: SIR PRIME
The presumed answer from CCP is: treaties!

Except treaties aren’t coming with Dominion and NRDS is based on the line I quoted above:

- Greater Providence is open for transit, commerce, faction bounty hunting and asteroid mining to all pilots, corporations, and alliances who obey the law.

If treaties are the only answer then quite simply Dominion has killed NRDS as Eve Online knows it because we’d have to pre-vet and agree a treaty with every one of our daily thousands of visitors.

You're assuming one implementation of treaties.

It's quite conceivable that a "open treaty" could be created, such that anyone who does Stuff™ within a system you hold sov over would be bound by the treaty, unless they were actively at war with you or there was a more specific treaty. Thus it's theoretically possible that the treaty system could allow you to tax their ratting, etc without having to enter a formal agreement with everyone who flies into your space.

(Depending on just how this is implemented, there might need to be some anti-griefing measures in the implementation)

Just because it's called the 'treaty system', that doesn't mean that all of them must be implemented as formal negotiations between two parties.

Napoca Potaisa
Gallente
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.10.05 21:37:00 - [141]
 

I know how much you hate to compare EVE to real life, but what I think CCP is trying to do is take the actual model, let's call it the "Canada" model (large area, low population density, point development sites - few large cities (outpost), gold and diamond mines (highend moons)), and turn it into a "South Korea" or "Netherlands" models ( small area with big population density, extensive development of both cites and industry, and even if you lose the point income sources (highends) you still get the best ports and/or heavy industry sites).
And is always better to be just kilometers away from a coffee shops, then to be hundred of miles away from a bar in the frozen tundra. Cool

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2009.10.05 21:41:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Caldor Mansi

Simply because the new system is very unfriendly to 'open' space not generating income to pay upkeep for sovereignty that is needed to get an outpost running...

Well don't my two suggestions pretty much cover that? Either the corp/alliance holding said system pay for it, and you have one corp/alliance for every system under CVA, making CVA into a "united nations" sort of thing. Or the neutral inhabitants pay for the developed systems by tax (at the same time as they aren't forced to live in the developed system if they don't want to pay taxes)

Also if I'm not misstaken, in the new system you don't need sov to have outposts, you need outposts to have sov. So technically you don't HAVE to have sov over all the area you currently operate in.

teji
Ars ex Discordia
Here Be Dragons
Posted - 2009.10.05 21:45:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
I don't understand why CVA complains so much? From what I see you are one of the alliances that will benefit most from these changes!


Because they are smarter than you.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2009.10.05 21:48:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Ukucia

It's quite conceivable that a "open treaty" could be created, such that anyone who does Stuff™ within a system you hold sov over would be bound by the treaty, unless they were actively at war with you or there was a more specific treaty. Thus it's theoretically possible that the treaty system could allow you to tax their ratting, etc without having to enter a formal agreement with everyone who flies into your space.


That's a pretty interesting idea!
Imagine sort of a popup window when you jump through the first gate leading into a new alliance system. You get a rundown of which treaties are active in this space, and by entering the space you automatically acknowledge these treaties/rules. If you don't like it, you can always leave again, but if you stay you are bound by them.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.10.05 21:50:00 - [145]
 

SIR PRIME, a very well reasoned post. It offers good insight into your point of view.

A couple of points though.

I could ask if you don't want to invest in upgrades, because your return on those upgrades would be limited, then why did you invest in all of those outposts to begin with? Presumably to make your area comparable to high sec, for RP purposes... which is great actually. However, now you have the opportunity to make your space even more desirable than high sec. I'm just saying that the reasoning behind your finding Outposts desirable, but up grading your space undesirable, is a bit difficult to make sense of. Especially since you will have a very, very easy time meeting the requirements for said upgrades, while many alliances will be struggling to do so.

A fair amount of consternation was evident in previously referenced CVA posts on the subject of Cyno Dampners (presumably they meant Cyno Jammers). I can see concern about being invaded more easily after Dominion, however since Cyno Jammers will likely only be able to be dropped in Outpost systems this means that you will likely be the hardest area to assault with cap ships in EVE.

And yes, while it is true that treaties will be out after Dominion due to a desire to tweak the system a bit, it doesn't look like it is going to be very far behind it. I think perhaps you should wait for more details (while certainly explaining your concerns, as you did in your post above) before you decide that treaties (or the rest of Dominion for that matter) will work against you.

Keep in mind, your level of resources in your area will at worst stay the same. Also keep in mind that industry in 0.0, while riskier without Sov 4, is far from impossible (or even difficult).

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.05 21:53:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 05/10/2009 21:54:48
Originally by: Daedalus II
Well don't my two suggestions pretty much cover that? Either the corp/alliance holding said system pay for it, and you have one corp/alliance for every system under CVA, making CVA into a "united nations" sort of thing. Or the neutral inhabitants pay for the developed systems by tax (at the same time as they aren't forced to live in the developed system if they don't want to pay taxes)

Also if I'm not misstaken, in the new system you don't need sov to have outposts, you need outposts to have sov. So technically you don't HAVE to have sov over all the area you currently operate in.


All wrong.

1&2 ) Renting 'open' space is absurd in nature.
It does not solve anything. New renter will face same issues - inability to make money in such space because of non-existant treaties and tax system being unaffected by sovereignty.

3) You need sov to build na outpost.


Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.10.05 22:04:00 - [147]
 

space whales

about time!

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.05 22:07:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1

A couple of points though.

I could ask if you don't want to invest in upgrades, because your return on those upgrades would be limited, then why did you invest in all of those outposts to begin with? Presumably to make your area comparable to high sec, for RP purposes... which is great actually. However, now you have the opportunity to make your space even more desirable than high sec. I'm just saying that the reasoning behind your finding Outposts desirable, but up grading your space undesirable, is a bit difficult to make sense of. Especially since you will have a very, very easy time meeting the requirements for said upgrades, while many alliances will be struggling to do so.


Yes, this will be absolutely hilarious. Because Providence is so open and peacefull area, it will allow upgrade the space easily. It does not matter CVA won't see a penny from their space but it will be great income for all other 0.0 citizens who will come here to farm rats and mine so they can maintain their own worthless space because any other region won't be able to expand as Providence becaus this space is so unique.

Wow...

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2009.10.05 22:07:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Caldor Mansi

All wrong.

1&2 ) Renting 'open' space is absurd in nature.
It does not solve anything. New renter will face same issues - inability to make money in such space because of non-existant treaties and tax system being unaffected by sovereignty.

3) You need sov to build na outpost.




Quoted from here: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=695

Quote:

We implement the following:

* A simple, descriptive sovereignty system
* A separate mechanism for governing outpost conquest
* A way to increase the resource density of your space (as well as other cool gubbins)
* A reduction in the value of moon minerals
* An upkeep system for the space you hold and develop



As I read it, outposts are not connected to sov. This means that technically you can continue just as before, as long as you don't put out any claim markers. Without claim, no extra costs, but no possibility to evolve space. Status quo for you.

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.10.05 22:12:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
As I read it, outposts are not connected to sov. This means that..


...you fail at reading then and/or don't know how to conquest current outposts.


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