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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:12:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 05/10/2009 14:12:32
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
We are sure many of you can imagine the possibilities we are thinking about, too (comets, dark matter, wormholes, space whales, etc.).


+1 in favour of adding space whales Cool

Melissa Ravenflame
Caldari
Zulu Squadron
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:14:00 - [32]
 

I'm looking forward to the big alliances having to think about who they have as members. You are going to need PvPers for home defence, carebears able to do better in upgraded 0.0 than level 4's to generate passive income (taxes) as well as active income and also PvPers to go and hit the enemy.

Vanilla alliances who just recruit 100% PvPers are going to have to rethink if they want to hold 'Decent' space.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:14:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Treelox
good read

Let the market realignment madness BEGIN!!!!


yeah buying and selling 0.0 combat stuff is pretty much the closest you guys can get to successful 0.0 combat these days

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:20:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/10/2009 14:21:37
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/10/2009 14:21:18
Originally by: Doomed Predator
I for one welcome our new 75 mill HAC overlords.


We did some price calculations on sisi component amounts on test forums and tbh difference was around 10% from current TQ prices. I additionally counted for both pre- and post-market price hike (all lowend moon mins jumped up by 2-3x) and its still was around 15%. So really i doubt prices will go back to 75mil. Think 90-100ish might be best we can get.

Tho i might be totally wrong. Cant predict how everything on market reacts.

As for the blog and otions of exotic/unique minerals only available in developed station systems - it is again going back into point resources. So is putting ability to spawn complexes at higher rate. If you put same bonus into few station systems nearby you create quite large chance of getting one plex per system. Which in return creates situation similiar to 0.0 COSMOS plexes. Enables people to "farm" them.

Quote:
good read

Let the market realignment madness BEGIN!!!!


It began around week ago. You are way too late.

EDIT:
except neo/thulium. This one was around month ago.

Fade Toblack
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:23:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Akura kawanaka

You're not going to turn seasoned pvp veterans into mining/ratting carebears over night.


No, the idea is that you entice the carebears to come into 0.0 to do the mining/ratting for you. Meanwhile you continue to do the PvP to keep the PC pirates out.

Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:24:00 - [36]
 

Interesting devblog.

However ...


  1. Nothing wrong with point sources. They are a really good incentive to fight for something. With their value decreased massivly, what is left to fight for? Just stupid and senseless killing?

  2. Why do you think that active point sources are bad? I could agree that passive point sources are not sooo good and that at least some work should be done for it. But active point sources? Turn passive moon harvesting into active moon mining. Besides, as already said and as you mentioned, point sources are a good reason for big battles. Why would anyone fight 500 vs 500 if it is not necessary? Why would anyone throw 100+ caps at something if it is not worth it? Consider that more please.

  3. Will all regions become sooner or later the same value if everyone upgrades them? If so, then you remove another incentive for long term strategic plans. If the next region is as good/bad as your current region, why bothering invading it on a large scale?

  4. Why do you need to grind grind grind to "unlock" something? "Unlocking" features via grinding has absolutely NOTHING to do with a sandbox concept. You are aware that such senseless grinding will strongly encourage the use of (forbidden) bots, aren't you?

  5. What would it need to upgrade a system to near maximum quality? How long would it take? How much isk would it sink?

  6. Can you downgrade a system/constellation/region also? Could you lay waste to a system/const after you invaded it? Or can you ruin the system/region when you see that you are beaten and the invading forces are to strong, something like a scorched earth directive?

  7. If those high income sources are gone, how can new folks ever catch up? In the past they could have captured those sources to become also rich. But if those sources are removed (and no new sources introduced), how could they ever even come close to the old guys?

  8. Do you have any NEW incentives for invading and capturing a region and for long strategy planning now that you remove the high end moons and the regional quality differences?

  9. What price do you want to see for the r64 materials compared to the low end materials? Twice, ten, hundred, thousand times as expensive? (Don't tell me that the market will settle it, obviously you are not happy with the current market so you have some idea where the prices should be)

  10. Why do you change the building material quantities on t2 ship blueprints instead of changing the requirements on the component blueprints? If you change the component blueprints then you have a much more consistent overall change - and t2 items would be affected as well as they should.



Finally, I am worried that you remove more and more long term strategy elements and replace them by short term/instant gratification elements.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:25:00 - [37]
 

Quote:
I went to 0.0 to escape the grind -


Lets be realistic (did I really say that?). Most 0.0 PVP pilots finance themselves with alts in Empire PVP corps. Everyone has to have some source of personal income and currently the safest, most lucrative place to do is is in Empire.

Now if you can have a higher earnings potential in 0.0 with that same alt, and your income in the Empire NPC corp now has an 11% tax, you are going to seriously consider moving your moneymaker back to your home systems... and probably bring that pilot back into the corporate fold (thereby increasing revenue to the corp through taxes).

Granted, that will depend on how frequently you are interrupted in your money making activities by attacks forcing you to drop what you are doing and log onto your PVP main. However since everyone will tend to be more centrally focused (as opposed to having to find a secluded system to make any isk)doing this should be much less of a hassle than it currently is.

It rather depends on just how lucrative an upgraded system will be.



Kaito Haakkainen
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:30:00 - [38]
 

Still no potential for alliances aligned with the pirate factions. It's mission in NPC 0.0 while avoiding all forms of combat PvE or have members split between ratting/plexing and mission running.

If alliances could attract CONCORD/Empire NPC's and generate similar plexes that would open up a whole new set of options for pirates, outlaws, and the alliances they create.


Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:32:00 - [39]
 

as for constructive criticism, all the industry changes sound decent though they are roundabout and fail to correct thulium and generally seem like the wrong approach to take w/r/t distributing income more evenly. However the grinding to unlock sov levels is literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard: Guys, to cynojam our capital system, we need to mine ore for weeks/rat/some other stupid ****. Get mining!

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:35:00 - [40]
 

Quote:
Each upgrade will have a build cost in creating the upgrade and the resource upgrades themselves will have different pre-requisites, some of which will be activity-based, such as NPCs killed or ore mined within the system itself, which will add to the development index of the system.


This little bit is interesting.

Activity-dependant ressource quality lead to punished inactivity.

Punished inactivity lead to alliances staying closer to their home.

This is going to be a big stick throw in the power-blocs wheels. Did you count on that effect, CCP? Whatever, I like it...



But you might be doing a bit of overkill with the moons. Supply and demand work that way: small change in either supply or demand = large price change. You're talking about two larges changes, one with demand more than halved, the second with active point sources, which translate into players parking around moons and directly mining dyspro.


And what about technetium and neodynium? I'd like to see them as valuables as the new dysprosium and promethium, since they're just as rare, but it doesn't sound like your changes will do much about that.



Those changes will make decryptors the new bottlenecks, As everyone and their dogs will invent cheaper T2. That's fine in itself, but playing with scanners and probes is NOT fun. Fun is making things go boom. Are you going to do something about that?

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:37:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Weaselior
as for constructive criticism, all the industry changes sound decent though they are roundabout and fail to correct thulium and generally seem like the wrong approach to take w/r/t distributing income more evenly. However the grinding to unlock sov levels is literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard: Guys, to cynojam our capital system, we need to mine ore for weeks/rat/some other stupid ****. Get mining!


Wat?

There are no SOV levels.
There is no indication that mining (or any other money making activity) will be required to hit a specific level of activity to allow you to cyno jam a system. That part remains to be seen.

lylaal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:39:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: lylaal on 05/10/2009 14:40:02
i think these are excellent changes and i am also loving the tears


Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:44:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 05/10/2009 14:47:56
Quote:
Those changes will make decryptors the new bottlenecks, As everyone and their dogs will invent cheaper T2. That's fine in itself, but playing with scanners and probes is NOT fun. Fun is making things go boom. Are you going to do something about that?


You made good points in the rest of your post, but as to this you need to remember something. Not everyone is in it for the PVP. I think that alliances wanting to expand will have strong motivation to recruit (or form treaties with) players/corps/alliances that are more into the PVE or industry side of the equation... as now that will make an alliance much more profitable (through taxes or as part of a treaty agreement) and give them the manpower to actually utilize new territories profitably.

Pretty much a win/win situation. Empire dwellers looking to make better money and experience 0.0 will have opportunities now to do so, and 0.0 alliances who wish to see their coffers grow and more of the map show their influence will have new options to make that happen.


Gripen
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:45:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Gnulpie

  1. Nothing wrong with point sources. They are a really good incentive to fight for something. With their value decreased massivly, what is left to fight for? Just stupid and senseless killing?

  2. Why do you think that active point sources are bad? I could agree that passive point sources are not sooo good and that at least some work should be done for it. But active point sources? Turn passive moon harvesting into active moon mining. Besides, as already said and as you mentioned, point sources are a good reason for big battles. Why would anyone fight 500 vs 500 if it is not necessary? Why would anyone throw 100+ caps at something if it is not worth it? Consider that more please.

  3. Will all regions become sooner or later the same value if everyone upgrades them? If so, then you remove another incentive for long term strategic plans. If the next region is as good/bad as your current region, why bothering invading it on a large scale?


My concerns exactly.

TheLibrarian
Minmatar
Tides Of War
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:47:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Weaselior
as for constructive criticism, all the industry changes sound decent though they are roundabout and fail to correct thulium and generally seem like the wrong approach to take w/r/t distributing income more evenly. However the grinding to unlock sov levels is literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard: Guys, to cynojam our capital system, we need to mine ore for weeks/rat/some other stupid ****. Get mining!


I believe that the mining deal is for people who like to mine. Why would cyno jamming be related to mining. In fact I think the grinding idea is very smart, it forces you to fill your space with people who like to do it, compared to elite alliances who have vast amounts of money who can just pump a lot of cash to upgrade their belts instantly and farm those belts properly. Now they will have to protect their nub miners.

This creates gameplay and conflict.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:54:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Gripen
Originally by: Gnulpie

  1. Nothing wrong with point sources. They are a really good incentive to fight for something. With their value decreased massivly, what is left to fight for? Just stupid and senseless killing?

  2. Why do you think that active point sources are bad? I could agree that passive point sources are not sooo good and that at least some work should be done for it. But active point sources? Turn passive moon harvesting into active moon mining. Besides, as already said and as you mentioned, point sources are a good reason for big battles. Why would anyone fight 500 vs 500 if it is not necessary? Why would anyone throw 100+ caps at something if it is not worth it? Consider that more please.

  3. Will all regions become sooner or later the same value if everyone upgrades them? If so, then you remove another incentive for long term strategic plans. If the next region is as good/bad as your current region, why bothering invading it on a large scale?


My concerns exactly.


There will be plenty of reasons for conflict, and moons will still have value to an alliance. Different moons will now be considered somewhat valuable however.

Active moon mining is not necessarily a bad idea, however that turns that revenue stream from primarily an alliance activity to a personal activity... and I think there should be some revenue streams (in moderation) that are best handled at the alliance level.

Not all regions are (or will be) created equal. Its buried by now, but has been mentioned in previous dev blogs.


Herr Nerdstrom
Caldari
Havoc Violence and Chaos
Merciless.
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:56:00 - [47]
 

I think I can see what CCP is trying to do, but it seems like it is walking a fine line between introducing true grinding into a non-grinding game and breaking a lot of stuff. For example, an interview leading up to fanfest with a CCP member stated that people who don't want to die are going to "be very upset." This implies a lot of PvP. How does this work together with upgrading systems via ratting and mining?

In addition, CCP has stated that it wants to see fleets of super capitals destroyed more often. How is it possible to replenish larger numbers of these massive ships without providing something more than a 24-48 hour stability to a system which mines for and builds these ships?

It sounds to me like CCP wants a lot more PvP and more rapid transition of sovereignty but without providing a stable enough environment for mining and manufacturing. After all, what's the incentive to mine in a system with tremendous resources if it comes under attack every day?

ElvenLord
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.10.05 14:57:00 - [48]
 

Nice initiative on increasing the capability of a single member to create income in 0.0 but one problem, all upgrades are financed by corporations/alliance and you severely reduced their incomes and increased expanses, thus ability to put/finance upgrades solely depends on income they might have been created in the past (ofc under condition they havent spend/wasted it already on current infrastructure).

I still have a strong feeling you didnt analize current state of affairs as you should have, and you didnt think it trough. But as usual, lets wait for specific explanations and ofc the prices of things to come.

Paddlefoot Aeon
SiN. Corp
Daisho Syndicate
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:02:00 - [49]
 

I like the changes... keeps things interesting.

Changing moon goo material usage in T2 items is a good idea; it raises the value of moons across all regions (because low end moons are everywhere), while dropping the value of the high-ends by reducing demand.

This actually reminds me of the way the mineral market has gone over the past several years. Crokite is no longer ~4000 per unit, trit is no longer ~1 per unit.

While I would like to see current sov 4 constellation holders get "something" for their work, I understand that being established in a manner that allows for Sov 4 is already a significant step, not to mention that those Sov 4 holders probably already have loads of ISK in the bank (and are therefore well suited to being upgrading immediately.

These items that are coming in Dominion... for system claiming and upgrading: what are the chances of the items being released into Tranquility before Dominion in a micro patch (in an "inactive" state"), so that there's not a mad rush once Dominion launches.

The reason I suggest the above is that the "cold turkey" removal of Sov 4 could provide many opportunities for alliances to assault territory (and stations/outposts) made vulnerable by the sov-mechanic change.

At the very least, allowing for the early seeding of the sov-claiming structure would allow alliances to move the equipment into place pre-patch, so that they can anchor them immediately post-patch and reduce the likelihood that a hostile fleet shows up and locks down what was originally a secure system.

Or... will it take a little bit of time for Sov 4 to disappear (i.e. 1 week), so that there is time for the logistics to be done?

While I do have these questions/comments, I must say that I'm looking forward to the changes that this next patch will bring. Its only Internet Spaceships, after all.... gotta keep things interesting!

ElvenLord
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:04:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Herr Nerdstrom
It sounds to me like CCP wants a lot more PvP and more rapid transition of sovereignty but without providing a stable enough environment for mining and manufacturing. After all, what's the incentive to mine in a system with tremendous resources if it comes under attack every day?


/signed

removing some of the existing benefits actually hurt industry in 0.0 more then possible upgrade bonuses will give. So as I mentioned, analysis of current state is not done properly, but again lets wait and see (then we can burn them on the stake as there is a 90% chance they will fail horribly, as usual)

El Mauru
Amarr
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:09:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: El Mauru on 05/10/2009 15:14:50
If you fear you are going to be pushed into grinding belts for your alliance you are in the wrong alliance, period.

Also:
If you go pvping because of moongold you are probably playing this INTERNETSPACEWEBSHIPPIXELGAME for the wrong reasons.

All I hope is that these changes will actually lead to more people sitting in belts/plexes/wherever-one-can-probe-them-out.

Finally:
I bet the new ...uh... combat-focused-points/reason to go to war will most likely be the pipes to empire/JB-locations so I doubt the reasons for conquest/etc will go away anytime soon.

Gawd, i really, REALLY hope Jumpbridges will require some silly carebear-population to build. Best time i had in eve was when people actually still used gates to travel around.

Katsura Kotonoha
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:09:00 - [52]
 

Will it be possible for my corporation to purchase upgrades with timecards?

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:10:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1

Miners mine, ratters rat, explorers explore... that won't change. The only thing that is changing is that now there will be good reasons to coordinate those activities in specific locations.



The point is, that in order to upgrade a certain solar system, the new mechanic might force people to grind worthless ressources to unlock access to the stuff they want.
This has certain side effects, not only unhappy players, but an overproduction of an unneeded ressource, crashing the market completely for it.

If you look at games that require you to craft hundreds of items just so you can craft the good stuff, you'll soon see the market for low level items completely in the gutter as all the unwanted crap is being dumped into it. Ryzom is a good example for this.

Applied to eve, this might completely kill the price of low end minerals, as many alliances try to grind for arkonor.

Professor Dumbledore
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:17:00 - [54]
 

CCP you people are so stupid it hurts. You move from a place where huge conflict determins who gets the real resources too who ever controls the most amount of bots gets the most amount of money. Way to ruin your game.

Zargyl
Black Thorne Corporation
Black Thorne Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:17:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Akura kawanaka

I went to 0.0 to escape the grind - I was sick of mining, sick of ratting, sick of doing missions. I wanted to pvp.

You're not going to turn seasoned pvp veterans into mining/ratting carebears over night.


Akura: PvP veterans will surely stay PvPing. This is mostly (among of a hell of other interesting things) to create a niche for ppl who mine/mission in empire to be wanted by ppl in 0.0 alliances (so that you have an incentivive to try to lure ppl to your region of space to help develop it as well as to give you more targets Wink ). So there will be surely no need for seasond pvp-ers to change into miner/ratters as you describe.

Seems interesting times are upon us soon Very Happy

BTW go space whales ugh

El Mauru
Amarr
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:19:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Professor Dumbledore
CCP you people are so stupid it hurts. You move from a place where huge conflict determins who gets the real resources too who ever controls the most amount of bots gets the most amount of money. Way to ruin your game.


yeah right. We totally went to war with Bob because of moongold, silly gitt.

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:21:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: ElvenLord
then we can burn them on the stake as there is a 90% chance they will fail horribly, as usual)

why the hell are you still playing this game if they fail 90% of the time?


Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:22:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: ElvenLord
then we can burn them on the stake as there is a 90% chance they will fail horribly, as usual)

why the hell are you still playing this game if they fail 90% of the time?




one could ask the same question of your alliance

John Grimm
Amarr
Rendili StarDrive Yards
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:27:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1

Miners mine, ratters rat, explorers explore... that won't change. The only thing that is changing is that now there will be good reasons to coordinate those activities in specific locations.



QFT. This TBH is the goal of CCP.

It'll also promote alliances to take on or hire mining corps, that can come in under contract "mine to your hearts content and give us 5-15% of all ore taken in", that way a system gets up-graded, miners mine in a relatively save environment(with ample warning of incoming hostiles, cause every1 in the system already is friendly), miners can join in on defense (how much does a frig/cruiser cost) and all the PvPer will have minerals on local supply for industrial pips to build new ships.

If the current alliance leaders think this through and start organizing and establishing relations from now with Empire mining/mission running(<- Plex Runners)/industrial corps, they can get to system upgrading damn quick once Dominion hits.

iP0D
Posted - 2009.10.05 15:27:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1


It rather depends on just how lucrative an upgraded system will be.





I look forward to killing all income from upgraded systems with a single ship with a Covert Cynosural Field Generator I, 23/7.


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