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blankseplocked Ninja Salvaging Fix - UPDATED v1.7 (Space Cookie of Doom)
 
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Dharh
Gallente
Ace Adventure Corp
Posted - 2009.10.21 19:02:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Lemmy Kravitz
1.) no mission timer agro thing, to complicated just leave it at the turning on salvagers on a wreck

Not complicated at all. Anyone coming into my missions should be fair game for me to shoot. Salvage or no.
Quote:
2.) over complicated again. just make it a standard flag timer just like cans

This is a little more complicated, but not that much. The reason for this so things automatically get abandoned. I don't want to have to set every single wreck to FFA manually so salvagers can get at stuff I kill. And _yes_ I quite often do not salvage my kills, I don't care if it costs me 40% potential more profits.
Quote:
4.) No to complicated, and I see a complete crash in market + scrap farming on a scale never before seen. Also removes even more risk from salvaging. Leave wrecks in missions where there is a chance the MR/corp is there, or comes back.

What is your definition of complicated? And yeah prices might go down, GOOD. This can get mitigated by nerfing the chance at a successful salvage, increase low level and decreasing high level salvaged parts. I think you missed the part where the wrecks only move if the mission space itself is about to despawn. If the mission space is still there but the mission is closed the wrecks would still remain in the mission.

Altie McName
Posted - 2009.10.21 19:30:00 - [212]
 

This thread can use this as well. Smile

Originally by: Kzintee
Originally by: Altie McName
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass
What part of "We can ask for change" do you not understand?

CCP asked for ideas on ninja salvaging btw. Check "Commonly Proposed Ideas". Right at the end there.
Which is in the "Features and Ideas Discussion" forum. Meaning when you post an idea, expect some people to flame you, some to agree, some who disagree, have questions asked, and respond to questions and suggestions. Flaming and ignoring people who have a different view point and ask questions that are on the tough side only makes the OP or the person who suggests an idea look bad as he shows he doesn't want a discussion, he wants agreement, or to troll.

You disregarded many questions and suggestions, contradicted yourself via your own words and statements, and not accepted answers to questions answered because you didn't like them. Not much of a discussion now is it?


WHat's a typical reply posted in NS threads? "CCP says it's ok, wrecks don't belong to you, go away and l2p". Try having a discussion when you're up against that opposition. That's like arguing whether god exists or not with a Christian fundie.

Typical yes, but when people do start to try and have a discussion, as the other threads show that serious questions have been asked, questions that promote discussion on beliefs and implementing different ways of salvaging working, they are ignored or tossed aside for anti NS ideas. Furthermore, many anti NS claim that they are the majority, being a majority would imply you have the better argument and support, so encouraging debate would seem more beneficial, would you not agree? If someone makes claims about different aspects or someones posts, should you not question their reasoning, intent, or source of the claim they have made?

To say that it's not worth arguing with someone of the opposing view point because they believe in something different shows you don't want to try and prove your side is the better choice, just that its the louder group talking.

Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar
Rebirth.
Posted - 2009.10.21 20:20:00 - [213]
 

here is the problem with what #1 is doing

Unfortunatly it is highsec, not low sec or null sec we are talking about. That means you can't blow people out of the sky for no good reason. They have to actually commit an act of theft before you can retaliate. I.E. loot the can, loot the wreck, or salvage. There are a couple of reasons why it has to be done that way because

a.) I can see people luring other people into mission just to blow em up and backstab
b.) by looting/salvaging a person gives a kind of consent to pvp
c.) The space you are missioning in does not belong to you but the government/corp you are running it for.

#2 if you do em just like cans you don't have to set anything FFA just don't shoot at em or shoot at em when they go blinky for salvaging a wreck you put dps on and they didn't

4# you just rattled off a whole bunch of balancing issues that would need to be looked at + realize when you want to change anything that spawns or needs to be kept track of remember to multiply that by 30k-40k.cause that's the number of pthings the server is going to need to keep track of.CPI CPU and bandwidth can be spent elsewhere.

Kaya Divine
Gallente
Kittens Factory
Posted - 2009.10.22 13:51:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Lemmy Kravitz
Edited by: Lemmy Kravitz on 21/10/2009 17:07:29
overcomplicating everything I think. Just keep things the way they are with two new rules

1.) party/parties that put DPS on an entity that create a wreck get salvage rights
2.) party/parties that salvage from a wreck get agro to party/corp that also has salvage rights. Unless that party/corp is the same party/corp.

Basically treat salvage just like you treat cans.
Simple, sweet, elegant.




With all respect, this would only benefit mission runners...and not both sides. While those who genuinely salvage for ISK will be affected, griefers and those who can kill only pve fitted ships would be so happy.

Markus Reese
Caldari
New Eden Weekly Sentinel
Posted - 2009.10.22 15:15:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Carebears
I should be able to let my wreck float forever and come back and pick them up whenever despite they are floating space junk


Originally by: ninjas
I want to do nothing more than fly in and watch people whine, and hope they shoot me so I can get in my pvp ship, or I am so carebear, I want to make the most isk, with zero risk


this thread is 8 pages long, and these are the only two things that in essence get rehashed over and over. so lets start from blank and come up with an idea that satisfies.

Carebears-Missions is how they make money, and salvaging can be a big help. I know many, they are often mainstream miners/traders who are looking for a fun supplimental income. 9-5ers who want to relax. People say eve is a pvp game, but if that was so, 80% of eve population wouldn't be high sec, sorry to say. Eve is a social game, carebears make it go around, and probably paid for alot of those new servers....

Ninjas-There are three groups I have noticed that make these up. Griefers who just wanna harass, newbs who want ton of money fast at no risk. (Finding a few Trit alloy bars in one wreck is more than I ever made in a day of my L1 mission/bantam mining a week in) or people who are just bored and enjoy zipping in and out.

Now the third component of the problem, the salvage. My main problem, is that it doesn't follow ccp's much lauded sandbox. It is heavily ruled and constrained for no reason other than program blocks. Is the engine of a car different in terms of salvage then the wiring harness for said engine? That is a differentiation that occurs here. IMO, there shouldn't be. I feel that whatever rules applies to a jet can, should apply to the wreck itself. They are both of equal value usually, and both parts of the same whole.

Extrapolation-jet can, or jettision can. Jettision is just like refuse, but nobody complains that it is theft. This imo, needs some work. If I set something down on the ground while sitting at a bench, nobody would argue that it is mine. If I leave it there when I leave, it can be considered abandoned. There is no lost and found in eve, so it is up for grabs. Jet cans should be the same way. If the owner leaves, somebody else can claim it. No flagging, no tractor blocks, just a container of "trash" so is free for all. Secondary effect, new interest for miners, will be more wary about filling the can and leaving it cause somebody can then claim a full jetcan of ore. Promote more team play/better haul back in hauler. Get em outta high to mid sec. Cloaked haulers waiting for the claim anybody?

Backtrack to salvage. I am in a field killing. Hopefully they add new AI to missions. Forget moving L4's to lowsec. Make the AI better to promote teams for L4s again. This will reduce individual profits making the salvage remnants more valuable per person. Thus justifying the claiming. If they don't salvage after the tough fight and leave for other room/mission space, it can be "assumed" they don't care, and next person can come in and say, "it was abandoned!" so law wouldn't care you to it AND ALL MODULES ON WRECK since they are part of the same whole.

Also, tractors shouldn't be locked out either. I mean, this is thieves we are talking about here, how wouldn't their tractors be able to "lock" a wreck, just because it is a can, etc. Make them tractorable, but the act of tractoring something with ownership flaggable. WOn't make ninja's job any different. Peeps still shoot wrecks, etc and will do it anyways. they can just do it faster. Will extrapolate into what this can all amount to in next post.

Markus Reese
Caldari
New Eden Weekly Sentinel
Posted - 2009.10.22 15:46:00 - [216]
 

AAAAAAAHHH!!!!! my 4000 character reply post errored and was lost!!!!! *Markus Reese cries..

Short summation.

Salvage flaggable, good for mission runners. Keeps newbs and npc corps from salvage w/o taking wrecks.

Tractorable wrecks. People who want to flag, will loot a wreck to flag anyways. Tractoring will cause a flag. Not being able to tractor, and differentiating the jet cans containing the modules from the salvage itself goes against the whole sandbox principle. They are part of the same whole.

Salvage profession. Make wrecks form a field. Larger fields harder to pinpoint due to signal distortion and fuzziness or some such bs. Need some way to make more skilled people get the more valuable sights like all other professions. Only scannable by ORE salvage ships which also get a small T-beam/salvager bonus. starter much like procurer, one salvager, tbeam and slot for probe. have a bigger version T1 as well. T2 can be massive salvage ship, like hulk, and a "ninja version" cloakable. Good for honest salvagers, cause then they can do real salvaging and find all those wreck sites I abandon. Good for me, cause then if I want to let somebody salvage, I don't have to fleet them just so they can tractor.

Cloakable, cause wreck fields determine ownership. If owner leaves their field, it becomes claimable. Person decloaks, claims. All is theirs. From jetcans to wrecks. Carebears don't like it, don't abandon your claim.

If you want to reply, no need to quote whole thing. Just make a question or statement. Try to remember, this is ideas and discussions, lets come up with a way to advance/improve salvage with IDEAS and DISCUSSION!!! and not troll to keep it the way it is, cause there is much room to make it a new facet of eve.

Altie McName
Posted - 2009.10.22 16:23:00 - [217]
 

Now this Marcus is a great post with ideas that work towards a balance that doesn't benefit one side. CCP would like it also as this would semi promote having two accounts so you can always keep claim on an area.

I think the claim mechanic would be the best option to add, but would need to be worked on. Say there are two different miners in the same belt not affiliated with each other and both have killed rats, who claims the wrecks? How far would this range of claim be? This would also expand to a mission, say someone warps in and starts popping the rats that a MR isn't focusing on, who would be the claim holder with two separate killers not affiliated with each other?

Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.22 16:46:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: AsheraII
ShockedShockedShocked3 HOURS?????????????? ShockedShockedShocked

Anything over 10 minutes is basically too long already IF there was a reason for wreckage salvage to be "owned".


Clearly you've not done a lot of L4s and don't know much about mission running.

Clearing a hard room, unless you are one of these 'hyper missioners' can take an hour or more. My first L4 I had to leave and return with my salvage ship salvaging under fire in some cases and still I had a bunch of wrecks expire. That mission took 6 hours to do. Sure it was my first solo L4 but guess what - EVERYONE has to do that at one time or another.

Many missioners play alone for very good real life reasons. They may not be able to mission with a friend, even if they want to as their friends aren't on the same time due to work/family schedules etc. 'Bring a friend' isn't a great argument unless, perhaps the counter is that you need to 'bring a friend' in order to ninja as well. Even then that's likely to be less of a burden as ninja groups are often more PvP/team-ish which many MR cannot be.

And no, not every player can afford a couple of slots for salvage and tractor units. Not everyone is flying around in 1 billion ISK Marauders. Some players/races/ships can do that. Some cannot. It's not universal, nor should it be.

Markus Reese
Caldari
New Eden Weekly Sentinel
Posted - 2009.10.22 17:08:00 - [219]
 

Well, the way I imagined ratting etc, is that when a rat is killed, or whatever, it would be automatically to the one who did it, exact same as current. Range would be simple grid. If owner leaves grid or cloaked, where it usually says the owner, ie corp, etc. It will switch to unclaimed. So anybody else on grid, uncloaked, simply right click, claim wreck.

Now, lets put the two miners to example. Say while mining, each kills two rats. so ownership is each their own. Miner A doesn't want his rats, so he can right click and say unclaim if he wants to selectively remove, or right click, unclaim all, and thus, all get the unclaimed status. Miner B right clicks, can go claim, or claim all.

Now Miner B has all 4 wrecks. He warps off to grab a salvager/hauler to salvage them, empty his secure cans. But instant he warps off grid, all four go to unclaimed, so if somebody else comes by, they can claim the same way. This includes modules, etc. IMO, they are from one whole, should be treated the same.

Mission runner example. Toughest part of salvaging for mission runners is if you are a small team, or say not full combat spec, ie a small miner/manf corp. You don't have a spare person to salvage and salvage is what you want. My friend does this. He wants the salvage to make rigs, but doesn't like the mission running. The flagging means reduced ninja carebears coming in. Thieves will come anyways, so no changing for them. Currently, if somebody wants salvage without the ninja, they have to ask around, mission run, or buy on market. With a claim system, they can just scan out a site, or if invited along, friendly mission runner need's not fleet them so the salvager can tractor.

Lastly, Mr. Ninja. They are part of eve. By making uniform ruling, thieves can still thief and flag taunt as they tractor, steal whole and complete. But ninjas... Ahh, they scan down mr. L4 angels ex. Warp cloak along behind them in their T2 covert salvy boat. Mr. Angels ex goes through gate, cleans everything right behind. Mr angels ex closes mission and warps back to bm... Where did everything go??? Ninja's can make real corp ninjaing. Or claim jumping! Imagine finishing a blockade, to warp back in salvager to find somebody else jumped it on you ^.^ I once had a guy, member of scope salvaging my wrecks, less than a month old. Was a game of warp in/warp out/shoot the wrecks, I would rather have shot him. But was a no win on my side. But if he claim jumped me, thats equal opportunity.

Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.22 17:26:00 - [220]
 

Originally by: Robert Caldera
but a lot of statements from CCP devs regarding this topic.


Actually there are precisely TWO statements in your usual series of quotes and one of them for a Dev not actually connected to the entire mess at all (and, hence, just some guy expressing an opinion regardless who he works for).

The GM quotes are meaningless. The Devs set policy, the GMs follow it. If this is ever changed the GM statements from the exact same people will change to match the new policy.

So the usual long series of quotes actually only has one which may be valid. And who knows if that person even still works for CCP? Or if they still feel the same way now that things have gone on for a year or more with new data?

Altie McName
Posted - 2009.10.22 17:28:00 - [221]
 

Alright, I see a bigger picture of what you are proposing. Did think up something that could be seen as a problem though. The new player who wants to salvage to start gaining some income, whether he do his own missions or probed out someones, could be at a disadvantage against older or more specialized players even if they own the claim to a grid.

Example:
Newbie finishes a level 2/3 mission, warps out and returns with salvage boat, claims the wrecks, starts salvaging. Older/speced player warps in and starts to salvage despite being flagged now. New player still in npc corp or very small corp, unlikely to return fire as he would then be at a loss, should the person decide to want to fight back and warp back out to get a pvp ship, older/speced cloaks and lets timer run dry and has full claim on the grid.

This would be a newer type of NS with a bigger loss to those who don't wish to fight back, or can't. I can also see the same ammount of NS threads we have now, along with cloak ones. This could potentially be a hindrance to newer players. We see that CCP wants rigs to be used more and new(er) players to get into salvaging to create those rigs thus increasing different profession gameplay, is there some means that you have that would fix this, or leave it as a "tough luck, should have started game sooner" as some people might take it as with the possibility of the example happening to several people?

Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.22 17:33:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: 5mok1ng gun
Your lying if it was simply about the salvage you would be salvaging often farmed dead space areas or 0.0 space, since this is not the case you continue to target active missions yes you are lying.


Well in fairness in High Sec they almost have to target active missions to get anything good because wrecks aren't scannable and mission running ships are easily scannable. They can't find anything else save by flying through the belts and the salvage there is so/so at best.

They could scan out a mission, fly out, book mark it and then come back later to see if the wrecks were abandoned, but that wouldn't **** people off.

So you're probably correct. They likely are just griefers. Were they not and really wanting to get good salvage they'd move to 0.0 and follow some ratters around the belts there. 0.0 ratters virtually never salvage or loot. Save for the occasional officer or hauler spawn they just leave everything where it lies.

I've done a bunch of salvaging of this sort in my Exequeror Salvage cruiser and it's awesome. It's fun, it's a bit risky, and you can make pretty good ISK doing it. However it doesn't peeve anyone - which is I guess why we don't see more of the ninja crowd out there doing it.

Jarvis Hellstrom
Gallente
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.22 17:38:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Angelice
Wrecks are rubbish... you wanna own rubbish?! Cool


When it's worth 20-30 million ISK, yep. I do.

And so does anyone else with a whit of common sense.

Aphoticus
Posted - 2009.10.22 17:44:00 - [224]
 

Edited by: Aphoticus on 22/10/2009 17:45:59
Edited by: Aphoticus on 22/10/2009 17:44:52
A think a more simplified version would follow this logic:

1.) Salvage has no ownership because Concord provides no law of ownership.
2.) Loot in wrecks have ownership rights according to concord laws.
3.) Balanced. Loot is Owned, Salvage is not.

Another Logical look at it from an individual item perspective.

Loot:

Already has ownership, so to balance that concept out, at what point should it be considered abandoned? That is the simplest thing to consider. When you leave grid, turn in the mission? Or when the bounty is deposited?

I vote for when you turn in the mission and the bounty is deposited (for missions with Bounty) as you are declaring the activity (mission, assignment) complete; concord laws states, wreck is abandoned if not claimed within this period.

Salvage:

No ownership for salvage (as it doesn't exist until someone with skill attempts to extract it). It is a derelict wreck in space, first come first server. How do you balance that? Sounds balanced right off the bat, no one has claim until they claim it.

Claiming a wreck? Is that the simplest solution? And then when does said claim expire? When the wreck (loot) is abandoned from turning in a mission (bounty collected)?

There they are tied together into one cohesive law.

Allow wrecks to be claimed during the mission. Wrecks. Not loot, not salvage, the whole stupid wreck, you are there, you have a stake in the wreck. If anyone tampers with the wreck in any way, while you have claim, then it's ON.

Once a set of conditions are met, that claim is nullified as it is considered an abandoned wreck.

Those conditions:

1.) If bounty is awarded, it must be deposited in the wallet (this signifies Concords agreement that the offending parties have been neutralized).
2.) You turn in the mission (this tells the agent that the mission is done and that all corporate/private rights to the locale are no longer sanctioned by Concord.

That is it.

Once the above conditions are meet, the wrecks are free for alls (loot included).

Pros and Cons:

Time to salvage while mission is still active is lengthened (no MWD around) and the timer is ticking for getting that secondary reward.

Ninja salvagers and looters can pick out wrecks in space that have been flagged abandoned and their time is lengthened as they have to scan down the missioner and wait to see what they do - if they leave, and they monitor the wrecks, and they become abandoned, they know they are ripe for the pickings.

Outside the above conditions and pros and cons, the fight is on if wrecks are molested in what boils down to a corporate/privatized ownership of a particularly Concord Sanctioned action in space.

Markus Reese
Caldari
New Eden Weekly Sentinel
Posted - 2009.10.22 18:23:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Aphoticus
Stuff


Problem is 2 conflicts with one. If concord has no laws of ownerships, then modules would have no ownership.

The statement that a wreck has no value until salvaged is flawed. Cause skill is a factor. Newbie rank 1 salvage, might get nothing. Same field, Salvager V with rigged mining ship might make a fortune. It is no different than the cars I work on. Got an old car. The parts are there, be it left rusting in a field or torn down for restoration. I know what I am doing, so I can recover alot. While some 6 year old with a hammer is not likely to get much. I say the flipside. All the value is there until it is destroyed by neglect or lack of skill.

Abandonment. This is Soooooo easy. Leave grid, wreck abandoned. Like leaving a newspaper on a park bench. You cannot come back an hour later and say that the guy sitting on the bench stole it. You leave it, then it becomes refuse.

You said simple and wrote a page, I said simple and system fits in 2 paragraphs with example. Straight forward, fair, unbiased. Bigger guns gets, or more clever gets. How more pure eve can one make it?

----------------------------------

Ahh, the new player issue. is true, the difficulties of being a new player who wants to salvage. I concur, their would be problems of muscling out. I think back to my first days of eve, mining in a bantam. Imagine being in a belt, when 5 hulks with haulers show up.... The salvaging would be the same. New player makes less, but for every part of new players, isn't that the way it is? I wouldn't worry too much about people muscling in though. Cause say you scan a wreck site, if using combat probes, you would see a salvager is already there. I wouldn't waste my time finishing scan cause most likely anything good is gone, gotta look around for the fresh apples.

Mission running, npc corp somebody comes in and takes wrecks. Well, is kinda like that now. I mean, it would suck, but I think they would be less risk. Any salvager is going to try and find the big money area. With all the spacing that mission runners get, runner/salvagers of the low level could easily find a quiet place to do it, shoot, more spacing would probably be good for eve.

In 1
Posted - 2009.10.22 18:28:00 - [226]
 

So here's a run down of the thread so far.

Originally by: Kaya Divine
please restrain yourself from personal attacks, and be objective as I am.


Originally by: Kaya Divine
Second darling


Originally by: Kaya Divine
Honey, for me most of the world is stupid, when you have my IQ you experience an epiphany.... ]


Originally by: Kaya Divine
When you lack arguments, its so easy to start spiting on others?


Originally by: Kaya Divine
And honey, I`m direct and above all I respect other people...


Originally by: Kaya Divine
If you can`t discuss without insulting others, it would be better that you leave this topic.


Originally by: Kaya Divine
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
wall of failure


Don`t mix apples with oranges. I believe that you are not delusional but only a troll.


Originally by: Kaya Divine
This only is a prof that you two are immature, without basic grasp on reality of EvE.


Originally by: Kaya Divine
Second, please do restrain from limiting freedom of speech of those who don`t have similar opinion to yours.


Originally by: Kaya Divine
So, in another words I am thankful for yours opinion, but most of them are null and void.


I'm just so glad you have that high IQ, it seems to enable irony and bad spelling. Very Happy

Valkerias
Posted - 2009.11.24 16:08:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: In 1
So here's a run down of the thread so far.

Originally by: Kaya Divine
please restrain yourself from personal attacks, and be objective as I am.


Originally by: Kaya Divine
Second darling


Originally by: Kaya Divine
Honey, for me most of the world is stupid, when you have my IQ you experience an epiphany.... ]


Originally by: Kaya Divine
When you lack arguments, its so easy to start spiting on others?


Originally by: Kaya Divine
And honey, I`m direct and above all I respect other people...


Originally by: Kaya Divine
If you can`t discuss without insulting others, it would be better that you leave this topic.


Originally by: Kaya Divine
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
wall of failure


Don`t mix apples with oranges. I believe that you are not delusional but only a troll.


Originally by: Kaya Divine
This only is a prof that you two are immature, without basic grasp on reality of EvE.


Originally by: Kaya Divine
Second, please do restrain from limiting freedom of speech of those who don`t have similar opinion to yours.


Originally by: Kaya Divine
So, in another words I am thankful for yours opinion, but most of them are null and void.


I'm just so glad you have that high IQ, it seems to enable irony and bad spelling. Very Happy


Don't forget questionable grammar. But then again this is the internet(s). Bad grammar is so l33t. Personally, I propose and have proposed this idea to "ninja" salvaging. If you scan down a mission site that is not yours, you should get an NPC swarm bearing down on YOU. That way, if the mission runner gets some wannabe scanning down his sites, he can then have MORE bounties and salvage, and if the ninja salvager wants to get his own wrecks by blowing up the hostiles he can. Nobody should get a free ride. (As in waiting until the MR has cleared the hostiles and then warp in and take all the salvage.)


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