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Jeeper Creeper
Posted - 2009.10.01 03:59:00 - [1]
 

TL;DR
Butterfly Effect, LOL

Send isk if you likey! I really need it! Very Happy

====

I wasn't sure where to post this, and I hope this hasn't been discussed to death already. It's hard to be more of a noob than I am - I created my char 10 days ago. You can either ignore my opinion on that basis or think that the fact that even someone like me can notice these things as a testament to how glaring the incongruities really are - the choice is yours.

(1) :25-:30. First is not an incongruity, but just a cringe-worthy moment. Our hero, is described as "a lone wolf". Get it? He flies a Wolf and he's flying solo, which makes him a lone wolf twice over... That's like a literary figure, or something...

(2) Check out Lone Wolf's fit:

4x200mm howitzer artillery
1mn afterburner II
armor explosive hardener II
small armor repairer II
warp scrambler (we can see it in action in the fight footage, though not in the fitting for some reason)
standard launcher (I think... you can see it in the fight footage... let's assume it's t2)

Note that howitzers cannot be t2s, since Lone Wolf wouldn't be able to fit four of them with the rest of that stuff due to powergrid and cpu limitations, even with perfect skills. So I'm going to assume they're Scouts with faction ammo. We see nothing fitted in the remaining two low-slots, by the way. Thatís a strange fit. How about rigging it, getting a co-processor II and a damage control? Or something, anything!

(3) :36-:40. Why does the miner keep on mining as if he's not even aware that he's under attack? Assuming he's the kind of miner who can have friends, or at least a conversation with a human being...

(4) It's unlikely that Lone Wolf "has a split second" to make his momentous decision - the pirates would almost certainly try to ransom first, and if they've already failed to do so the miner is probably seconds away from death. If the pirates' ships are cheap (which we have to assume they are for Lone Wolf to have a good chance at soloing them), they'd likely finish the miner off first, even if it means dying to a Wolf.

(5) :47-:49. Why don't the pirates warp out once they see an assault ship warping in? The Wolf is slow and can't web the pirates, since Lone Wolf fits an afterburner and a scrambler. The pirates fly at least a Merlin (which is twice as fast as the Wolf assuming it has at least an afterburner I) and an Executioner (which has the same base speed before an afterburner as does the Wolf with afterburner and max skills), which means that could well outrun a Wolf even if their mwds get scrammed. (I'm assuming that these are t1 frigs for Lone Wolf to have any chance of killing them, though the Executioner looks suspiciously like a Malediction.) On the other hand, a volley from four 280mm howitzers can do over 800 damage, so fighting is sort of dumb unless you're sure you can take it. Unless they can speed tank him, in which case he'd be completely helpless once they scram and web him - any group of 2-3 pirating frigs should be able to manage that. (The whole fight scene is completely incomprehensible, in my opinion.)

Jeeper Creeper
Posted - 2009.10.01 04:11:00 - [2]
 

(6) More importantly, why doesn't the miner warp out once the pirates are busy elsewhere? Are they still scramming him even as they are getting killed one by one? Is he waiting for a chance to find out why Lone Wolf is there?

(7) Wait, why exactly is Lone Wolf coming out of warp at a belt in alliance controlled null-sec in the first place, and with a scrambler fitted? Is he a pirate himself? Then why doesn't he finish what the pirates have started? Is he ratting? Then why a scrambler? Is he a bounty hunter or an anti-pirate, then? Perhaps. Either way, I assume that people who fly t2/faction frigs in 0.0 typically know in advance what they are going to do in situations like this, so the kind of drama the video suggests is saved for people who donít have multi-million frigs. (Iím deciding what to do with myself in EVE right now, but I fly Rifters.) Unless CCPís target audience in this video is the people who purchased their characters with all the fixings...

(8) :55-:59. Watch the miner and Lone Wolf flying side-by side after the fight. That's some top-notch navigation, right there. (Also, why is the miner not mining all of the sudden? Now's the time!)

(9) 1:03-1:05. Wait... So this is how 0.0 works? STEP 1: A miner gets attacked by pirates. STEP 2: A stranger in a t2 ship comes to the rescue at the perfect moment and kills the pirates in a fight of questionable nature. STEP 3: A wing leader invites the stranger to join a gang (!) on its way to a form-up with a fleet (!!!) WHILE AT WAR WITH A MULTI-REGION ALLIANCE RIGHT NEXT DOOR (!!1!WTF?!?!1!). I mean, there is no way this guy could be a spy or anything! He just saved the miner from those mean pirates, so he must be honorable, right? An honorable man in a Wolf with empty low-slots is just what we needed to give us the edge in the upcoming cap fleet slugfest!

(10) 1:29-1:34. Last but not least, a direct quote: "Your decision to help the miner led to this moment Ė an epic battle with thousands of players..." Wait, what? I take it the idea is supposed to be that had Lone Wolf not helped the miner, he would not have gotten a chance to take part in this battle. (I think we can see a mothershipÖ sorry, a super-carrier get killed on Lone Wolfís watch, so that wing leaderís hopes were misplaced.) The battle itself would have happened anyway. Battles that large donít happen just because one wing of sub-caps runs into another, right? So what does the butterfly effect have to do with any of this, again? Isnít it more of a "choose your destiny" type of thing? If only that didnít sound so WoW!

Lance Fighter
Amarr
Posted - 2009.10.01 04:29:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Lance Fighter on 01/10/2009 04:29:03
As per point 10.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

Ston Samu
Posted - 2009.10.01 04:34:00 - [4]
 

Hello Jeeper, welcome to the game. Although I must say, for a 10 day noob, you sure know a heck of a lot about ship fitting, encounter types, situationnal thinking, module effects, metagame and such. So I guess you are some kind of supergenious.

So your point is?

Shereza
Posted - 2009.10.01 04:49:00 - [5]
 

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Renarla
Posted - 2009.10.01 05:03:00 - [6]
 

I also found the video to be very unrealistic, but hey. Who expects the people who write/produce ads and promotions for a game to actually know anything about the game? Rolling Eyes

Mortuus
Minmatar
Divine Power.
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2009.10.01 05:06:00 - [7]
 

I thought about answers to these questions, then figured this topic was terrible anyway.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.10.01 05:29:00 - [8]
 

I rather liked the video. While it definitely wasn't a "true encounter", I've had encounters that turned out very similarly - with equally amazing consequences. Though it usually involved more shooting than defending a miner. :)

-Liang

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.01 05:54:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Seriously Bored on 01/10/2009 05:54:43
Originally by: Lance Fighter
Edited by: Lance Fighter on 01/10/2009 04:29:03
As per point 10.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.



I believe we can call this poster the "Bumblebee Effect."

EDIT: For the sake of editing.

Jeeper Creeper
Posted - 2009.10.01 07:21:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Mortuus
I thought about answers to these questions, then figured this topic was terrible anyway.


Yet you couldn't stay away...

Marko Riva
Posted - 2009.10.01 07:28:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Marko Riva on 01/10/2009 07:28:13
Originally by: Jeeper Creeper
Originally by: Mortuus
I thought about answers to these questions, then figured this topic was terrible anyway.


Yet you couldn't stay away...


As your post is a troll I think he figured a suitable reply was needed, mr "It's hard to be more of a noob than I am - I created my char 10 days ago" alt. Although I understand the fun in that, I must admit that I did something similar after creation, albeit way more elaborate Razz

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.10.01 07:33:00 - [12]
 

280mm arty fits work on a wolf D:

and hide passive mods can? probably why it looked like it was missing slots

and it was fighting a hawk (which is lol terriable) and a malediction. wolf would have a shot at winning that fight, especially if the hulk had drones out.

as for just jumping in the fleet like that unlikely, but as for maybe getting recruited and eventually getting in a fleet much more likely.

but the way it was presented makes for a better story.

meh.

ovenproofjet
Caldari
Therapy.
Posted - 2009.10.01 07:39:00 - [13]
 

I liked this video....you've torn it to shreds on me Sad

Jeeper Creeper
Posted - 2009.10.01 07:45:00 - [14]
 

I actually like the video myself. Visually it's pretty cool... We'll get through this together ovenproofjet, I know we will...

Originally by: Lance Fighter
Edited by: Lance Fighter on 01/10/2009 04:29:03
Posts ancient goon propaganda instead of thinking of a reply.


Great point. Except not really relevant to anything that's depicted in the video.


Originally by: Liang Nuren
I rather liked the video. While it definitely wasn't a "true encounter", I've had encounters that turned out very similarly - with equally amazing consequences. Though it usually involved more shooting than defending a miner. :)


But have YOU touched lives of thousands of people?


Originally by: Ston Samu
Hello Jeeper, welcome to the game. Although I must say, for a 10 day noob, you sure know a heck of a lot about ship fitting, encounter types, situationnal thinking, module effects, metagame and such. So I guess you are some kind of supergenious.


Actually, I am. I play because I don't feel like working on my dissertation.


Originally by: Marko Riva
As your post is a troll I think he figured a suitable reply was needed, mr "It's hard to be more of a noob than I am - I created my char 10 days ago" alt. Although I understand the fun in that, I must admit that I did something similar after creation, albeit way more elaborate Razz


If you really think I'm a troll alt, I take it as a compliment. Care to make it interesting? Cool

Jeeper Creeper
Posted - 2009.10.01 07:58:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Manu Hermanus
and hide passive mods can? probably why it looked like it was missing slots.


See, that's how you know I'm a noob - I didn't even know you could do that... So... Lone Wolf is flying one of those passive tacklers you hear about, right... Cause scrambler isn't showing either...


Originally by: Manu Hermanus
and it was fighting a hawk (which is lol terriable) and a malediction. wolf would have a shot at winning that fight, especially if the hulk had drones out.


In the video they don't even scratch him... Just sayin'...


Originally by: Manu Hermanus
the way it was presented makes for a better story.


I bet you'd love Plan 9 from Outer Space, then...

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.10.01 08:25:00 - [16]
 

Who cares. Its a short video which, for the first time, tries to cover the dynamic nature of eve rather than just showing graphics for 2 minutes.

Originally by: Ston Samu
Hello Jeeper, welcome to the game. Although I must say, for a 10 day noob, you sure know a heck of a lot about ship fitting, encounter types, situationnal thinking, module effects, metagame and such. So I guess you are some kind of supergenious.

So your point is?


I would expect he's been reading about eve a long time before plying it. I read politics, datasheets and tips on eve for months before starting.

SpearLance
Posted - 2009.10.01 09:06:00 - [17]
 

Aight -

First of all...
The Butterfly Effect IS NOT defined as "Sensitive dependence upon initial conditions" That is something else entirely!

The Butterfly Effect is a THEORY that should time travel become possible, the altering of any event, even the slaying of a single butterfly, could have radical alterations of the future down the road.
Made famous by a book that claimed a butterfly being killed in the Jurassic times changed the outcome of World War 1.

Some could argue that this does infact take place in Eve, but that is a long conversation.

"Chaos Theory" is the theory that describes extreme sensitivity to initial conditions. This is over a short time-span, not like the butterfly effect. What this is describing is like taking a samurai sword and swinging it directly AT your best friend's neck, but barely missing it short. Had that sword been mere inches farther, the outcome of such an experiment would have been DRAMATICALLY different Razz

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.10.01 09:39:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: SpearLance
Aight -

First of all...
The Butterfly Effect IS NOT defined as "Sensitive dependence upon initial conditions" That is something else entirely!

The Butterfly Effect is a THEORY that should time travel become possible, the altering of any event, even the slaying of a single butterfly, could have radical alterations of the future down the road.
Made famous by a book that claimed a butterfly being killed in the Jurassic times changed the outcome of World War 1.

Some could argue that this does infact take place in Eve, but that is a long conversation.

"Chaos Theory" is the theory that describes extreme sensitivity to initial conditions. This is over a short time-span, not like the butterfly effect. What this is describing is like taking a samurai sword and swinging it directly AT your best friend's neck, but barely missing it short. Had that sword been mere inches farther, the outcome of such an experiment would have been DRAMATICALLY different Razz


It says such a concept is in chaos theory and most people call it the butterfly effect. And considering this wiki article it is a correct claim.



MightyRhinox
Minmatar
Rhinox Heavy Industries
Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.01 10:43:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: SpearLance
Aight -

First of all...
The Butterfly Effect IS NOT defined as "Sensitive dependence upon initial conditions" That is something else entirely!

The Butterfly Effect is a THEORY that should time travel become possible, the altering of any event, even the slaying of a single butterfly, could have radical alterations of the future down the road.
Made famous by a book that claimed a butterfly being killed in the Jurassic times changed the outcome of World War 1.

Some could argue that this does infact take place in Eve, but that is a long conversation.

"Chaos Theory" is the theory that describes extreme sensitivity to initial conditions. This is over a short time-span, not like the butterfly effect. What this is describing is like taking a samurai sword and swinging it directly AT your best friend's neck, but barely missing it short. Had that sword been mere inches farther, the outcome of such an experiment would have been DRAMATICALLY different Razz


Ah Hollywood, edumacating our youth for 6 generations.

Major Stuart
The Green Cross
Sev3rance
Posted - 2009.10.01 11:53:00 - [20]
 

Its a good looking video, **** doesn't have to make sense. Look at district 9, that movie doesnt make sense at all when you think about it but people say its the best sci-fi of the year (which its not)

BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2009.10.01 12:27:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: SpearLance
Aight -

First of all...
The Butterfly Effect IS NOT defined as "Sensitive dependence upon initial conditions" That is something else entirely!

The Butterfly Effect is a THEORY that should time travel become possible, the altering of any event, even the slaying of a single butterfly, could have radical alterations of the future down the road.
Made famous by a book that claimed a butterfly being killed in the Jurassic times changed the outcome of World War 1.

Some could argue that this does infact take place in Eve, but that is a long conversation.

"Chaos Theory" is the theory that describes extreme sensitivity to initial conditions. This is over a short time-span, not like the butterfly effect. What this is describing is like taking a samurai sword and swinging it directly AT your best friend's neck, but barely missing it short. Had that sword been mere inches farther, the outcome of such an experiment would have been DRAMATICALLY different Razz


It says such a concept is in chaos theory and most people call it the butterfly effect. And considering this wiki article it is a correct claim.






Hmm, you may be joking but...


NEVER fully trust a wiki article. Anyone can edit it and post dribble on it. Hence it is never a viable reference source when writing scholoarly texts (pretty much the first thing a tertiary student will learn these days..).


I will agree that, in general, wiki is pretty good. Many ppl have nothing better to do than hunt for dodgy information and add "citation needed" for suspect claims or say that it needs cleanining etc..

Typhado3
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.01 12:58:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Typhado3 on 01/10/2009 13:02:12

hate to say it but go look at the *shudder* wow trailer for the WoTLK expansion. Compare that to actual gameplay lol.

While this isn't a realistic story I'd say it's more of a stretch of the truth rather than an outright lie or some rp pretty pre-rendered fluff.

I remember a battle a long time ago when I was flying a logistics with a fleet of ~50 allies against a fleet of around 30 enemies when they had 5 carriers supporting them on the gate. This was the days before logistics where popular and somehow i managed to survive that entire battle that whent on for hours (3-5 hours was a long time ago) only getting attacked twice by a carrier. Since the carriers where picking their own targets scramming them and sending their fighters after them it was basically the perfect situation for a logistics pilot, I saved countless ships just by keeping them repped long enough to get out of scram range, also saving plenty of tacklers from a death by smartbombing carrier. That battle lasted so long because it was so incredibly close and if I hadn't saved half our ships from death by carrier I really doubt we could have won it, fc and half the fleet even said something similar at the end of the battle. A few days later that corp we faught ended up becoming our allies to cause even more changes, thus more theoretical butterflies where created to fly around and cause hurricanes or whatever the hell butterfly effects do.

While the situations where a single pilot can matter on that scale are limited they do happen.... even if not how described in the video. In sharded worlds or games with too many laws and boundaries situations like this are rare or limited in the number of people they effect.

Rordan D'Kherr
Amarr
Posted - 2009.10.01 13:13:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Jeeper Creeper
TL;DR
Butterfly Effect, LOL

Send isk if you likey! I really need it! Very Happy

====

[stuff]



I guess your analysis took twice the time than it took one CCP guy to create the whole promotion video.

Shazard
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2009.10.01 13:19:00 - [24]
 

Yea... and how exactly you get sound in space?
And how do you shoot artilery without getting your ship in opposite direction?

Common... if we start complaining about Eve not beaing realistic and EveBased vidoes not being realistic, may be go out and dig some potatoes... it is more realistic stuff!

Lindsay Logan
Posted - 2009.10.01 13:34:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Lindsay Logan on 01/10/2009 13:37:23
Originally by: Major Stuart
Its a good looking video, **** doesn't have to make sense. Look at district 9, that movie doesnt make sense at all when you think about it but people say its the best sci-fi of the year (which its not)


Uhhh, it actually do make sense, and thats why its good. Have you seen it Confused

Originally by: Shazard
Yea... and how exactly you get sound in space?
And how do you shoot artilery without getting your ship in opposite direction?

Common... if we start complaining about Eve not beaing realistic and EveBased vidoes not being realistic, may be go out and dig some potatoes... it is more realistic stuff!


Background fluff states sounds is simulated by pod computers. Sapce has no native sounds.

Artilery (also all turret systems if you think about it): Thruster compensation and other nifty force compensators. Look at modern sniper rifles.

EVE is actually very realistic on some levels if you overlook some obvious flaws in basic physics Smile


Shazard
Gallente
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2009.10.01 14:04:00 - [26]
 

Quote:

Artilery (also all turret systems if you think about it): Thruster compensation and other nifty force compensators. Look at modern sniper rifles.



Does not compute... All these rifles at the end rely on you being on ground on very massive planet which has big inertia.
In space you have your louzy ship to compensate that, which means, such compensation will take actuall fuel... which by the way never runs out!

:)

The same fun when you are hit by artilerry, your ship should fly crumbling into nearest asteroid belt...

Gieron
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.10.01 14:20:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: BiggestT
NEVER fully trust a wiki article. Anyone can edit it and post dribble on it. Hence it is never a viable reference source when writing scholoarly texts (pretty much the first thing a tertiary student will learn these days..).

Yet another person with a compulsory need to point out how Wikipedia works to anyone who looks up even the slightest thing on it.

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.01 15:07:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Major Stuart
Look at district 9, that movie doesnt make sense at all when you think about it but people say its the best sci-fi of the year (which its not)


It wasn't? What was the best? Your choices are (according to movies classified as Scifi and released in 2009):

Outlander
Push
Knowing
Star Trek
Terminator 4
Moon
Transformers 2
Gamer
Pandorum
Surrogates

I see one good movie on that list, and I'd say they're tied. Wink


Intigo
Amarr
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.10.01 15:09:00 - [29]
 

Worst thread of the day, possibly the week. Get a grip, OP.

Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Major Stuart
Look at district 9, that movie doesnt make sense at all when you think about it but people say its the best sci-fi of the year (which its not)


It wasn't? What was the best? Your choices are (according to movies classified as Scifi and released in 2009):

Outlander
Push
Knowing
Star Trek
Terminator 4
Moon
Transformers 2
Gamer
Pandorum
Surrogates

I see one good movie on that list, and I'd say they're tied. Wink




I keep hearing Gamer is good, but I don't believe it. Laughing Which movie is the good one there - Star Trek I guess?

And District 9 was great.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2009.10.01 15:26:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Jeeper Creeper

Originally by: Liang Nuren
I rather liked the video. While it definitely wasn't a "true encounter", I've had encounters that turned out very similarly - with equally amazing consequences. Though it usually involved more shooting than defending a miner. :)

But have YOU touched lives of thousands of people?


Yes.

-Liang


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