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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.29 04:56:00 - [1]
 

I'm not a hard core industrialist or an expert on producing T3 ships and subsystems so that's why I'm posting this thread: to have the best experts in the game weigh in on how to most effectively reduce the finished cost of T3 ships and subsystems.

CCP has said repeatedly that the cost of assembled T3 ships should be in the 200-300m ISK range, and while CCP has taken steps to reduce the cost, the prices are still well above the mark for an assembled ship.

Right now T3 ships are in the neighborhood of 600-650m ISK on average for typical configurations for all four races. Would simply halving the material requirements for built products improve the situation? Or would it be better to increase the amount of raw materials produced per man hour and reduce the volume of the material as well?

I think that there is definitely a chicken/egg issue with the price of the ships and their proliferation. It's been over half a year already and still T3 ships are pretty rare when it comes to PVP. I'd like to hear the industrialists' input as to how to best fix the issue.

MightyRhinox
Minmatar
Rhinox Heavy Industries
Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.29 05:49:00 - [2]
 

I'm gonna have to say, the experts here, the people who currently manufacture t3 ships, probably don't want the price to come down.

I think the biggest issue is competition, the t3 manufacturing tree is pretty skill intensive so there aren't a lot of people who've put the time in to be able to make the hulls.

My alt is currently busy working away at getting there, but to still has at least three weeks before he can make one race's hull and 106days to be able to produce all four and the subsystems. Add another couple of weeks for the research skills and I'm still a 4 months away from being able to build all t3 hulls (on a toon that can already build all t2 cruisers).

I think if CCP really wants to bring the prices down, removing the racial starship engineering V requirement for hull manufacture would increase competition a lot.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2009.09.29 06:37:00 - [3]
 

A DOV pirate looking to make something instead of blow it up. What's this world coming to?

Smokin' Dragon
Astroforge Industries
4U Holdings Inc
Posted - 2009.09.29 06:38:00 - [4]
 

2 months ago the price was 450 mil assuming you bought all the gas and salvage yourself.

Then CCP patched the drop rates, and everyone rejoiced.

Then, 2 weeks later, CCP took a sledge hammer to the slavage drop rate (NIM's) and the prices went through the roof.

Unfortunately, excessive tinkering by CCP has caused many wormohle factories to close, thus droppping supply and thus raising prices

IF you want a cheap ship, you need to get the salvage yourself.

Xerra Yeltrox
Posted - 2009.09.29 07:16:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus


Right now T3 ships are in the neighborhood of 600-650m ISK


Bellum, are you Dutch? Very Happy





Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.29 09:48:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Xerra Yeltrox
Originally by: Bellum Eternus


Right now T3 ships are in the neighborhood of 600-650m ISK


Bellum, are you Dutch? Very Happy







Noooooo.. why? -.-

Also, my 600-650m figure is for a ship with subsystems included. Is that why you're asking me if I'm Dutch? Shocked

Mimiimi
Posted - 2009.09.29 10:49:00 - [7]
 

Currently the only bottleneck in T3 Production are Melted Nanoribbons. With a baseprise of roughly 500mio for all 5 Subsystems + Hull, MNs take the biggest share by 300mio.

Currently my corp (13 ppl, every day online and active gas harvesting, mining, plundering Radar+Grav) gets enough material for T3 production for at least 250+ subsystems per week, maybe more. But if we take MNs into account, we can prod arround 20 to 60 Subsystems per week.

imho, ccp should increase MNs droprate like they did with NIMs, and everyone could get a T3 for half the current price. ;)

Leana Darkrider
Minmatar
Creatio -ex- nihilo
The Donkey Rollers
Posted - 2009.09.29 10:59:00 - [8]
 

Nothing wrong to be dutch imo Wink

But I have no idea why he thought you were dutch


Celia Therone
Posted - 2009.09.29 14:04:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: MightyRhinox
I think the biggest issue is competition, the t3 manufacturing tree is pretty skill intensive so there aren't a lot of people who've put the time in to be able to make the hulls.

My alt is currently busy working away at getting there, but to still has at least three weeks before he can make one race's hull and 106days to be able to produce all four and the subsystems. Add another couple of weeks for the research skills and I'm still a 4 months away from being able to build all t3 hulls (on a toon that can already build all t2 cruisers).

I think if CCP really wants to bring the prices down, removing the racial starship engineering V requirement for hull manufacture would increase competition a lot.

This is a huge factor. From reverse engineering to subsystem construction to hull construction the build requirements are far too high and too diverse.

Cruiser Construction IV and Racial Starship Engineering IV would be a huge boon and would leave some skill requirements free for when T3 battleships or even T4 eventually comes along...

The logistics end of things is a huge pain in the rear as well. C3-FTM Acid takes over 1,200m3 of reactants per hour. That's huge when you're running stuff into low sec in a blockade runner.

By comparison the most complex of the complex reactions, Ferrogel and Fermionic Condensates, only take 400m3/hour each.

Anomandaris Draginpurake
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.29 16:47:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Xerra Yeltrox
Originally by: Bellum Eternus


Right now T3 ships are in the neighborhood of 600-650m ISK


Bellum, are you Dutch? Very Happy




Is this a reference to tulips?

oniplE
MeMento.
Posted - 2009.09.29 18:31:00 - [11]
 

I have always known bellum was dutch.

On topic, i dont think it really matters. Either increase droprate or lower material requirement, in the end it will probably have similar effect. I'd say tweak the one that is the easiest to balance.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.29 22:03:00 - [12]
 

You industrial guys are even more weird than the usual suspects. Shocked

On topic- I'm appreciating the feedback I'm getting as to why T3 continues to be so expensive. Just for grins I researched how long it would take me to acquire the base skills to produce some T3 hulls and subsystems from BPCs and the required parts and it wasn't pretty: over 120 days easy. I stopped at that point lol.

I have to agree that the cost of entry with all those skills at L5 is pretty stiff. I think there would be much more competition if the skill requirements weren't so high.

Please continue with more feedback!

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.29 22:16:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
I'm not a hard core industrialist or an expert on producing T3 ships and subsystems so that's why I'm posting this thread: to have the best experts in the game weigh in on how to most effectively reduce the finished cost of T3 ships and subsystems.

Wait.

Yes, all you have to do is just wait.

As more and more folks move into WH space, more raw materials become available and the price goes down.

As more and more folks get the skills for and work out the logistics of building T3, more people will be building them, and the price goes down.

As more and more folks buy T3 ships, there will be less demand for T3 ships and the price goes down.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.29 23:21:00 - [14]
 

Just a quick update-

After losing my first (and so far only) T3 ship, a Legion, I just purchased a new Legion and subsystems and fittings (all T2/best named) and ended up with a complete build cost of about 657m. 620m of that was the hull and subsystems.

While that is indeed better than the 1.2-1.5b that T3 ships started out at, I'm wondering if it's going to take another six months before the price drops in half again to 300m or so.

rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2009.09.30 18:26:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: rubico1337 on 30/09/2009 18:35:42
Edited by: rubico1337 on 30/09/2009 18:33:59
Originally by: Mimiimi


imho, ccp should increase MNs droprate like they did with NIMs, and everyone could get a T3 for half the current price. ;)


then another bottleneck will form in the production chain, and prices wills stay stagnant or go down only by a bit, the exact same thing that happened to NIMs

its all avoiding the fundamental problem of the sleeper salvage drop mechanics. when a piece of salvage is excessively high in price, a player cant go to kill a specific sleeper in order to get the in-demand item. instead they have to randomly kill all sleepers(9 times out of ten in class 1-3 systems). in this situation with melted ribbons the best drop rate comes from basic figs and cruisers. with the drop rate distribution as they are now, if you salvage a frig or cruiser a whole smorgasbord of salvage will come out of which you have no control and cannot make preferences for. so by attempting to increase supply of the bottleneck, they also salvage other materials, and increase the supply of all other salvage, thus creating a surplus in supply reducing the price to nothing and preserving the bottleneck in a vicious cycle

ccp needs to get its act together and redo the whole salvage drop rates

rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
Posted - 2009.09.30 18:32:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: rubico1337 on 30/09/2009 18:36:00
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Just a quick update-

After losing my first (and so far only) T3 ship, a Legion, I just purchased a new Legion and subsystems and fittings (all T2/best named) and ended up with a complete build cost of about 657m. 620m of that was the hull and subsystems.

While that is indeed better than the 1.2-1.5b that T3 ships started out at, I'm wondering if it's going to take another six months before the price drops in half again to 300m or so.


bellum, i regret to inform you that t3 prices will actually start a gradual climb in the coming months, take a look at malfunctioning and intact relics, all show a gradual increase in price, while the datacore prices have been relatively stable thus increasing BP costs. and nanoribbons (which make up a vast majority of production costs) look like they will continue rising

Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2009.09.30 19:05:00 - [17]
 

it went from NIMs to NMs, but the problem is always the same - bottlenecks. Leave one in place and if it's significantly higher than every thing else, the rest gets depressed and it goes thru the roof. (also c320 and c540 as you prety much have to do core gas sites to get those and that means class 5-6 for a regular supply).

The problem is average consumption rates of the resources. If you can't target supply (i.e. change what you go after if there's a shortage of something), the bottleneck items go sky high (as they are the limiting factor) every thing else gets devalued as "mud".

Zatch
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2009.09.30 20:44:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Zatch on 30/09/2009 20:57:04
The main reason for high T3 prices is the inappropriate pricing of materials (currently Melted Nanoribbons, 500k to > 8M over 3 months!) The cost to produce a T3 hull, according to current market buy-order prices (a good estimator of how cheap something can feasibly be produced, assuming no ridiculously low buy orders), is about 200M ISK. Now, using sell-order-prices it's significantly higher, but either way the materials are priced higher than CCP probably intended.

If CCP's goal is to get the price down to 200-300M total, the rarer materials will need to drop more frequently and drop in price by an order of magnitude, or the carebears will have to invade WH space en masse. Given that the latter is not likely to happen on account of WH space being 0.0, prices will likely remain high until drop rates are adjusted.

Something must fundamentally change if the prices are to drop. Refusing to purchase ships at these prices will either discourage producers from producing or drive down the price of materials, but the amount of price reduction necessary is substantial enough that voting with your dollar may be ultimately ineffective.

Shin Hu
Posted - 2009.10.01 09:27:00 - [19]
 

Another point was already mentioned in this tread: Logistic for the reactions.
First it's pretty though to fit more then one reaction-chain AND a useful defense.
This means one reaction batch is more or less static in min. production costs (even for the "i looted/mined it myself so it's free" crowd). 0.25 million for fuel per hour + material + logistic compensation + profit margin.
Ok. You can get a lot of materials in one batch. But with the limit to just one chain per POS (2 if you don't care for defense) you would need several to produce on a larger scale. Then you need at least one POS for R&D and Production.
So you would most likely invest just above 1 billion just in logistic and maintenance costs that get on top of your profit and the fact that the material is not in constant supply as it depends on drop luck and wh spawns and also time frame when WH Corps seed market with new materials.
Put this all together and the fact that there are not many who can compete in this field and you get a highly unstable market resulting in freaky price tags.
On top of that mess you get an other fortune part: Subsystem invention. You can't decide which one you will get out of that 4 (5 soon TM) you ahe a chance of 3/4, in some subsystems 1/2, to get that subsystem you DON'T want. Added the fact that all the process again is influenced just by luck it's an other major part of the problem.
And with dominion incoming all those sov-holding towers will go. So a lot of the lower materials will go up again as now they have to cover their production costs at a POS (same issue as with Moon Materials and T2 Parts :( )

So what could be done?
First: Let the inventor decide WHICH Subsystem he wants. Reduce chance of a successful invention by a small number so those who want to invent all kinds get a small advantage.
Reduce fitting for Polymer Reactor so you can use at least 2 on a well defended tower (remember. Producers don't like risks. Risks increase price for all products. mkay). 2 chains result in half costs for reactions-costs. Further this half the number of needed POS's for a reasonable number of supply. Less maintenance and logistic means less my customer has to pay.
Drop rate of Salvage: The most tricky part. Some data mining would help here. Possible solutions could be that each site drops an average of needed parts for one complete cruiser. C1-2 50% of a cruiser. C3-4 100% and C5 200% and C6 400%. As t3 BC/BS are also an option this would grant enough supply in salvage. Maybe the numbers need some tweaks (25%/50%/100%/200%).
Gas: This is an other part. Again the aproach from Supply and Demand point may be a good solution. Take all the gas needed to produce an average T3 ship and distribute this into a gas site. Again let a C1-2 get less then a whole cruiser, C3-4 around a whole and C5 2+ and C6 4+ in one site. The supply may not be constant but the supply in whole would be stable.

Why can't we use the needed reactor in 0.4? There is no sense in 0.3 limitation as the system use the average sec status and not true sec, at least this is common information about this (else we would be able to anchor xl shipyards in some 0.5 system, or am i wrong here :) ). This would increase the possible systems and thus the possible spot near the production base, again decreasing logistic and maintenance efforts.

In the end i must say the number of needed steps may look nice on paper but in the actual mix it's a nightmare for a serious business. Just to many points where the "can happen" factor play's the major part. You 'can' get all the stuff needed, but most likely you would get something else. You 'can' invent the right BPC, but most likely you won't, ...
All this + the fact that you need a ****load of logistic to keep this all running result in insane markets.

Fitz VonHeise
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.01 18:22:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: MightyRhinox
I'm gonna have to say, the experts here, the people who currently manufacture t3 ships, probably don't want the price to come down.
That would be correct.

As a new WH resident I am in there to make isk. It takes a lot of effort and infrastructure to get all the pieces to make these ships as well as the skills to build them.

If CCP makes changes that lower the sale price for T3 ships too much I and others will just stop doing it. And then prices will rise again.

Just accept that prices on these ships will be high. Razz

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.10.01 19:27:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Fitz VonHeise
Originally by: MightyRhinox
I'm gonna have to say, the experts here, the people who currently manufacture t3 ships, probably don't want the price to come down.
That would be correct.

As a new WH resident I am in there to make isk. It takes a lot of effort and infrastructure to get all the pieces to make these ships as well as the skills to build them.

If CCP makes changes that lower the sale price for T3 ships too much I and others will just stop doing it. And then prices will rise again.

Just accept that prices on these ships will be high. Razz


Yep. People are in w-space systems because they can make more ISK/hour than they can running missions in high sec. It's a bit of effort, but it's doable. Drop the ISK/hour too low and people will just stop doing it.

Hence, we need to completely remove all L4s from high sec space.

Don Genaro
Posted - 2009.10.01 19:29:00 - [22]
 

I just shut down T3 production because I got sick of grinding for nanoribbons. I had a massive OVERSUPPLY of everything else (including BPCs) but the nanoribbon drop rate just made the whole process no longer enjoyable. Packed up the whole operation, reactor, labs, assembly arrays and all.... sold everything off and I'm about to take a couple month break from eve. I seriously burned out on eve grinding for nanoribbons.

Don't be a jackass and ask for my stuff, I'll be back.

Mes Ren
No Trademark
Posted - 2009.10.02 00:39:00 - [23]
 

Ok, here is the whole deal.

First, decreasing the skill requirements will NOT lower the prices. When CCP screwed with the runs per success of Reverse Engineering (ie. - made it so people with lower skills would have more bpc runs), all that happened was profit margins went DOWN, but retail prices went UP. -- This was due to the increased demand for materials because people had so many more runs to build.(Retail costs for subsystems did come down significantly, but this was more due to the significant droprate increase of hybrid datacores, causing the cost of RE to come down from around 90mil per attempt to around 15mil per attempt.) Currently, it is MORE expensive to build a T3 ships and subsystem than it was a couple patches back.

If you want to see prices come down, CCP simply needs to increase the drop rate of Melted Nanoribbons. That would cause the price of all salvage to go up some (as all materials would be used more), while the price of Melted Nanoribbons would come down significantly. As of last week, Melted Nanoribbons were selling for 8.5mil a piece. If you could get that to drop to 4.5mil a piece, material costs (assuming you buy everything, including polymers, from the market and build the hybrid components) for hulls would drop from 245mil - 250mil to 155mil - 160mil; Offensive and Defensive subsystems would drop from around 70mil material costs to a little over 45mil. --Disclaimer: none of these prices include RE costs.

Overall, getting Melted Nanoribbons to under 4.5mil each would get retail costs of hulls to around 230mil - 250mil; subsystems would be about the same except offensive and defensive which would drop about 20mil - 35mil each.

Shana Matika
Posted - 2009.10.02 08:59:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Fitz VonHeise
Originally by: MightyRhinox
I'm gonna have to say, the experts here, the people who currently manufacture t3 ships, probably don't want the price to come down.
That would be correct.

As a new WH resident I am in there to make isk. It takes a lot of effort and infrastructure to get all the pieces to make these ships as well as the skills to build them.

If CCP makes changes that lower the sale price for T3 ships too much I and others will just stop doing it. And then prices will rise again.

Just accept that prices on these ships will be high. Razz


Not even half the truth.
At the current state T3 will never be used in a large scale for combat. Actual turnover of sell/destroy of those ships is even lower then those of marauders i guess.

Lets take actual price/effort scale.
With one T3 at 700 million you would need around 10h to collect one cruiser if you scale the isk/h at 70 million in raw minerals ON TOP OF THE TAGS (which can easily be several hundred millions depending on anomalies). If you can collect one cruiser in, lets say, 2h, the price would settle down at 150-200 million. That's the goal.
at 200 million for a whole cruiser this ships would be used MUCH more therefore the turnover will increase. In the end you will sell much more, increasing your isk movement. This again increase your profit even when it's not that high per unit. The volume is the point in this. Bigger sell volume -> bigger profit. More competition -> more opportunities .

The bigger volume will be increasing naturally again as more of this ships will get destroyed -> more demand -> more sell.

I made several hundred millions just out of some t1 BS and Cruiser. Each one gave me just a small profit (5%-10%) but at the big volume i put them up this stacked up. Actual you could be happy to sell ONE T3 per week, in some cases per month. Now what would you think if you would sell 5/day? Or even 100/day? (With a fair Price possible when you operate in the right area). Then you could easily settle down with the price and still get a serious profit.

Last Quarterreport didn't numbered the T3 ships in use but as they merged them with T2 I guess they are pretty rare.

From Q1/2009 they numbered the T3 Cruisers built in march '09 and some other informations:
Quote:
Each day about 350 unique characters sold Sleeper salvage material, but only about 100 characters bought this material on a daily basis. This shows us that relatively few players are counting on the market as a source for Tech III production, and most players are using this technology to build their own vessels.

I will disagree with the statement. It's more that most producer concentrate on T2/t1 as you can made much more in this fields then with one sold T3 per month.

Quote:

In total, 29 Tech III ships were produced in March. This clearly shows how difficult it is to acquire the necessary material to build strategic cruisers. Of these 29 vessels, there were four Legions, four Loki, ten Proteus and
11 Tengu. And of course, anything that is built in EVE can also be lost. By the end of March, three strategic cruisers had already been lost, two Proteus and one Tengu. Two of these were lost in low-security space during factional warfare conflicts, and the third was lost to Sleepers in wormhole space.


Again a god point. Lets round this to 30 ships (in one month...). 3 got lost. 10%. So 3 had to be reproduced to cover lose. If those 100 characters who bought the salvage on a daily base were producers, well then at least 70% of them did nothing or stoped their efforts before they got the product. And if they all planed to invest in this market more then half of them would have sold nothing if they all just builded one cruiser.
Again this report don't mentioned how many of those ships were still in escrow. I guess as 3 got lost about 25 were put up for sale...


Scarius Bane
Posted - 2009.10.12 12:25:00 - [25]
 

All this is correct, my main charachter(Ransome) is my research and builder. has been trainned in all 4 races for t3 bpc prodoudction and allso building. i am finishing up on on 10 run bpcs now and allso have allmost finished the race lvl to 5.
when i started selling bpcs you could get 100mil or more for them, however we started selling selling them for less and lesss(now we sell them for avg of 10-20mil apc for a 3 run.
We havent started t3 building as we still are getting things toghter for moving into a lvl 8 or 9 wormhole, these are the ones where you will get more nano ribbon drops drops from what we have seen.
AND YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!! certain ppl are not taking the lead in droppping the prices on the nano ribbons on the market. In order to get better drops on these items you need to be in higher lvl wormholes not the lvl3 or even 4 or 5/ need to be deep in 0.0 and get the higher lvl ones as trhe drops there are a lot better for the rare items that seem to be the be the bottleneck. Shortly we are going to be selling them for 1mil apc!!! going to drop the prices on some items. if we can!
But plese remeber if setting up in higher lvl wormholes, you will need a lot of guns on the ops as things tenmd to get get attrated to it, hehe. Anyways thats all.Twisted Evil

XXSketchxx
Gallente
Remote Soviet Industries
Posted - 2009.10.12 12:58:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Scarius Bane
moving into a lvl 8 or 9 wormhole


a what?

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2009.10.12 13:46:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: XXSketchxx
Originally by: Scarius Bane
moving into a lvl 8 or 9 wormhole


a what?



He has dominion or other upcoming expansion on his computer already !
Unfair !

Shidhe
Minmatar
The Babylon5 Consortuim
Posted - 2009.10.12 16:28:00 - [28]
 

The new materials for T3 have so far limited supply, and limited use. By which I mean, one source and one end product. More stable economies have several sources and several uses, but this is very early days yet for T3, so the situation should improve.

To be specific - everyone is making one product (T3 cruisers), and they all have the same sort of build requirements. On this list of requirements there is one (melted nanoribbons) which drops less frequently than the others, in relation to the other items. There is no alternative source for melted nanoribbons, so this deficit can only be made up by overproducing the other items, and the melted nanoribbons end up costing a large proportion of the end product.

If there were other uses for the non-melted nanoribbon salvage, then the price of these items would increase, and it would be more profitable to invest time in salvaging, thus indirectly bringing down the cost of melted nanoribbons.

If there were other sources for melted nanoribbons, then people could produce more of them in proportion, thus balancing the prices (this happened to the fullerene gases, as pilots could choose which clouds to harvest).

In other words, we need a more complex T3 economy, but hopefully this will come. Until then, expect bottlenecks, no matter how numbers are tweaked.


 

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