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Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2009.10.16 15:20:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Amateratsu on 16/10/2009 15:21:08
Originally by: Viggen

Yeah I went from being ranked around 25 ish up to rank 13 in a day. Not sure how as my stats havent changed, not that I'm complaining mind you Wink


If i'm not mistaken, it was due to a change in the penalty for a no data rank being reduced from a flat 1000pts to the #n active pilots in the db resulting in a boost for some and a nerf for others.

I went from #15 back upto #6 while the #2 and #3 entries changed twice in the space of a few minutesShocked

Plus Chribs fixed a sorting error in some of the ranks which may also have boosted some pilotsVery Happy

Viggen
Posted - 2009.10.16 18:41:00 - [122]
 

Amateratsu, thanks for explaining, thought it might have been that but wasnt sure.

RaTTuS, love the comparison idea, I know I'll be comparing myself to you as we seem so close to our goals, and of course we'll both be keeping a close eye on Trip Very Happy

Caiman Graystock
Caldari
Cornelius Starship and Computer Design
Posted - 2009.10.17 15:35:00 - [123]
 

Seems to be a little bug. I just jumped out of my +5 clone into a clone that has just two +4 implants, the character sheet shows those implants correctly but still displays the rest of my +5s from my other clone.

Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2009.10.17 16:07:00 - [124]
 

Excellent work. Loving the tooltip/popup on the "ships I cannot fly" icons.

Drahcir Nasom
Independent Manufacturers
Independent Manufacturers Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.17 21:07:00 - [125]
 

I'm not sure I understand the global ranking thing. I'm ranked 1st in 4 categories, 2nd in 3 categories and 3rd in 1 category and I'm in the top 10 in 5 more categories, but because I have no skills at lvl 0, lvl 1, lvl 2 or lvl 3, I get ranked below 1000 in those categories, putting me in 282nd place globally, but Ravenal who only comes 1st in 2 categories, 2nd in 2 and 3rd in 2 and is in the top 10 in 8 more goes into 1st place on the global rankings because he has lvl 0, lvl 1, lvl 2 and lvl 3 skills?

Drahcir

Tripoli
XenTech
Posted - 2009.10.17 21:28:00 - [126]
 

I have to say I think I agree with Drahcir. I think we should reconsider how this is calculated. I'd suggest having it only average out the rankings that are top positions:

Skillpoints
Number of Skills
Number of Level 5 Skills
Most SP in Corporation Managament, Dones, Electronics, etc.
Number of Elite Certificates

Kyreax
Gallente
Neuronix
Posted - 2009.10.18 03:26:00 - [127]
 


Awesome! Thanks for the hard work. Can we get a "best blonde hair" category? I might place in the top 45.

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2009.10.18 05:06:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Amateratsu on 18/10/2009 05:14:52
Originally by: Tripoli
I have to say I think I agree with Drahcir. I think we should reconsider how this is calculated. I'd suggest having it only average out the rankings that are top positions.


The way the average score is calculated currently, take your rank in each catagory, add them together and then devide by the #n catagorys.

If you have 1 or more no data scores it uses the #n of pilots in the eb database as the score for those catagorys.

Doing it this way means that ALL pilots have a chance to achive a top ranking position.

If we change it to the way you suggest the ranks will end up being dominated by high sp veteran players that noone else can catch, let alone pass as long as they continue to play.

if you want a better global ranking, you need to put your training into the catagorys where you have a low score like Ravenal and others have doneWink

I believe this is the fairest method for all pilots.

Edit: the penalty for a no data score is to prevent pilots who have a large #n of no data catagorys from getting a high average ranking... You would not want a brand new player who has not put in any training reaching the top 10 or better would you?Very Happy

Drahcir Nasom
Independent Manufacturers
Independent Manufacturers Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.18 07:27:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Amateratsu
Edited by: Amateratsu on 18/10/2009 05:14:52
Originally by: Tripoli
I have to say I think I agree with Drahcir. I think we should reconsider how this is calculated. I'd suggest having it only average out the rankings that are top positions.


The way the average score is calculated currently, take your rank in each catagory, add them together and then devide by the #n catagorys.

If you have 1 or more no data scores it uses the #n of pilots in the eb database as the score for those catagorys.

Doing it this way means that ALL pilots have a chance to achive a top ranking position.

If we change it to the way you suggest the ranks will end up being dominated by high sp veteran players that noone else can catch, let alone pass as long as they continue to play.

if you want a better global ranking, you need to put your training into the catagorys where you have a low score like Ravenal and others have doneWink

I believe this is the fairest method for all pilots.

Edit: the penalty for a no data score is to prevent pilots who have a large #n of no data catagorys from getting a high average ranking... You would not want a brand new player who has not put in any training reaching the top 10 or better would you?Very Happy



The other problem with the global ranking is it doesn't take into account people being equal in the individual rankings. Take Highest Total Attributes for example, both Ravenal and I have a figure of 125.4 but Ravenal is 1st in that ranking and I am 32nd, we should both get a 1 there but he happened to sign up on the website before me. The same with Most SP In Subsystems, Tripoli is 1st and I am 2nd purely on the basis Trip signed up to the website before me.

Yesterday I was 32nd on the Highest Total Attributes list, today I looked again and despite nothing changing, I am now 14th, and somehow my global ranking has suddenly gone from 265th to 35th in 10 hours despite none of my figures changing, so there is definitely something broken about it.

Drahcir

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2009.10.18 08:30:00 - [130]
 

Where 2 or more pilots have an equal score in 1 or more rankings, the ranking is sorted by global rank.

Tripoly and Ravenal rank higher than you there because they have a higher global position, however that does not mean you cannot pass them and take the #1 spot.

The global ranking is not just effected by what you are training but by all players registered on eb.

For example if another player signs up to eb who has higher sp in say trade than you do then he will push you down 1 ranking position, which then reduces your global score by 1 point.

It takes a while for eb to calculate your rank against all other pilots new and old in the eb db which is why you've gradually moved up to #35 place.

Now you have to focus your training in the areas where you rank low to improve your score and move further up the ranks.

Ravenal and other high ranking players are not locked in their positions because they signed up earlier. they can be beaten and knocked down by any player, including yourselfVery Happy

Viggen
Posted - 2009.10.18 12:15:00 - [131]
 

Regarding the global rankings, heres something I found interesting.

Currently I'm ranked 17th, but if I was given every skill in the game, and had them all at lvl 5 my global ranking would put me at 101st place. Shocked

Think I'll just stop training now and stay where I am :P

Contralto
Rift Tech
Posted - 2009.10.18 12:37:00 - [132]
 

Great site Chribba, Nice to be able to get in the top ten of at least one or 2 categories!

How about a section for standing ranks. IE. Highest number of total standing points positive and negative, highest/lowest standings to 10 corps/factions.

Highest number of 10.00 and -10.00 standings.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2009.10.18 13:33:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Chribba on 18/10/2009 13:34:19
Originally by: Caiman Graystock
Seems to be a little bug. I just jumped out of my +5 clone into a clone that has just two +4 implants, the character sheet shows those implants correctly but still displays the rest of my +5s from my other clone.

I'll look into that and wipe the implant info before update (I think that would be the problem).

Originally by: Viggen
Regarding the global rankings, heres something I found interesting.

Currently I'm ranked 17th, but if I was given every skill in the game, and had them all at lvl 5 my global ranking would put me at 101st place. Shocked

Think I'll just stop training now and stay where I am :P
Better plan to not get every skill to 5 then Laughing Anyway, I'm all open for suggestions about the global ranking, I'm pretty sure there are better ways or more fair ways of rank a character, my aim though is to have a ranking that rewards a pilot for being overall (duh) good, rather than "omg you got 200M SP you're #1!!!"

Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
Posted - 2009.10.18 14:08:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Dr Caymus on 18/10/2009 14:16:14
The global ranking is a great idea. It does a good overall job of ranking characters on a broad range of achievements. However, the current calculation has redundancies (i.e. total Level n skills and total Level n skillpoints are both included), rewards under-acheivement (i.e. Level 2, 1 and 0 skills and points are given weight) and includes statistics that are interesting to see but of debatable relevance to a character's achievements.

I like Tripoli's idea for a streamlined calculation, with a couple of modifications to make the system more competitive for "younger" characters:

Total skillpoints
Number of skills
Number of Level 3 or higher skills (one statistic)
Most SP in Corporation Managament, Drones, Electronics, etc.
Total certificates

The revised calculation would also be useful in running a second "tie breaker" sort.


Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2009.10.18 14:29:00 - [135]
 

Edited by: Amateratsu on 18/10/2009 14:29:30
I believe the current method of calclulating rank is as fair as you can get as it allows all players to work for a better rank and all players can be passed regardless of their sp or age.

Unlike what we had with InEve where once you reached the top you were un-passable

I can see where Drahcir is right in 1 respect in that he is getting penalised for not having any skills trained in levels 0 - 3 which as viggen pointed out would end up giving you a low rank if you had every skill trained to level 5.

Same with opposing ranks like high skillqueue vs longest skill/security status, getting a high score in 1 means you get penalised in the other.

So perhaps whats needed is a better way of dealing with "no data" ranks that keeps new untrained characters from jumping straight in at the top while not penalising older players who have trained past those levels.

Will see if i can think of any better suggestionsVery Happy

Dr Caymus
Gallente
Applied Technologies Inc
Agents of Fortune
Posted - 2009.10.18 14:31:00 - [136]
 

Here's another idea... and I'm thinking out loud here without having had much coffee yet this morning... Is the date of birth in the API key?

What about adding a couple more heads to Mount Rushmore that are geared specifically to new and younger characters:

Spot 5: Top "Up and Coming" characters = global ranking calculation applied to characters one year old or younger (include Level 2 skills in this calculation).

Spot 4: Top "Most Improved" characters = global ranking calculation applied to characters three years old or younger.




Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2009.10.19 02:52:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Ravenal on 19/10/2009 03:04:20
Originally by: Drahcir Nasom
... but he happened to sign up on the website before me.

Thats not it, secondary ordering is by global rank. Used to be skillpoints... but global rank is fairest for all.

What to do with empty categories... it's tricky as the all skills at lvl5 example proves. The only thing I can think of is another category where you get ranked higher the fewer sps you have to train the skills you have to lvl5.

Honestly if you are going to have those nr of lvl1 skills etc... there is no better way to handle it than currently.+

*edit*
... still think it should say 0 (zero) instead of "no data" and the actual rank too.

as a side node... finally some love for us jack of all trades over uber specialists.
*edit*

Contralto
Rift Tech
Posted - 2009.10.19 05:00:00 - [138]
 

I was ranked 34, but moved to 29 after placing an injected skill and a lvl 1 skill in blank categories.

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2009.10.19 07:38:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Amateratsu on 19/10/2009 07:57:50
Ok i have a suggestion for fixing the "no data" catagorys.
Rather than using the #n of pilots in the db i was thinking changing it to your actual global ranking position.

IE if you are ranked #35 each no data catagory gets a default value of 35.
This would still keep low ranking/untrained pilots with multiple no data catagorys from jumping straight in at the top of the rankings while reducing the penalty for more advanced pilots who have trained past those levels or choose to hide 1 or more of their stats.

I thought of using global average score but that changes too rapidly whereas position is a more stable value that requires effort to improve.

I would also suggest excluding the "Skillqueue/Longest Skill/Security Status" Ranks from the global scoring as those catagorys are mutually exclusive and you can't improve 1 without penalising the other.

What do you guys think? good... bad... ideaSmile

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2009.10.19 09:45:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Chribba on 19/10/2009 09:50:57
I'm happy to see the ideas being suggested, and I'm sure we will find a good outcome. The use of your global rank is a good option but also would throw in a problem or two in the calculations (especially since the global rank value is "older" than the actual stats - since the global rank is based upon all the other values).

atm ranks/stats are generated every 10 minutes, so things can shift around a bit in those minutes as well, eg pilot 1 gets his stats calculated and stored in the await for global stats to run, and he then has position 10, pilot 2 gets his stats updated and takes the 10 spot, thus pilot 1 would get 11 but all stats calculated would use his spot 10 position etc.

Ofc overtime it would be fairly steady ranking, but "real-time" (which won't be real-time due to the resources needed) would be a bit more jumpy.

edit
As a test I have now changed that the penalty for "no data" is your previous global rank score (unsure if that will turn out good or not, I have a feeling that some pilots will get smacked for having the previous 1000 point penalties).

Viggen
Posted - 2009.10.19 10:45:00 - [141]
 

Edited by: Viggen on 19/10/2009 11:07:03
I like Amateratsu's idea of using the globel rank to fill in the no data parts, and understand the problems that Chribba pointed out in doing this.
But using the previous global rank instead as a test is a good way around it... Chribba, I approve. Cool

Edit: "I would also suggest excluding the "Skillqueue/Longest Skill/Security Status" Ranks from the global scoring as those catagorys are mutually exclusive and you can't improve 1 without penalising the other."

Good point ^^

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2009.10.19 11:13:00 - [142]
 

I'd like to be always above Viggen in the global lists,
down to #9 now...
grrr

...
level 1 skills should count for less than level 2 etc


Viggen
Posted - 2009.10.19 11:45:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: RaTTuS
I'd like to be always above Viggen in the global lists,
down to #9 now...
grrr



Twisted Evil

You'd be placed a lot higher if you got the titan skills. Why dont you have them yet, are you a bit strapped for isk atm? I know I am, but I dont have the pre-reqs fully trained for them yet anyhow ugh

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2009.10.19 11:52:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Viggen

You'd be placed a lot higher if you got the titan skills. Why dont you have them yet, are you a bit strapped for isk atm? I know I am, but I dont have the pre-reqs fully trained for them yet anyhow ugh

well it's 20Bil that could be better used for Dominion ...
though ummm
it's only isk....

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2009.10.19 12:09:00 - [145]
 

Also added the defailt value of a newly added character to 500 points, thus they will be ranked somewhere in the middle, and their rank will change over time instead of them getting 50000 points and thus have to wait 2-3 weeks for the average to go down (since the default added value now is the previous global rank).

As for redundant categories, I think as spoken before the negative/positive is will stay but only ranked in one of the categories. Skillqueue, I dunno someone wanting to place high there also has to work on it and plan the right skills - and can only do so until they run out of short skills to train where as someone else can do the same.

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2009.10.19 15:46:00 - [146]
 

hmm... does global rank actually work for the "no data" categories?

well, sure but only if you can't close access to a particular category (like implants) and just get your global ranking for the attributes.

... which I tested and found out that I could do to increase my global rank (reset after test)

= being able to hide stuff to increase your rank == bad bad :(

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2009.10.19 19:21:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Amateratsu on 19/10/2009 19:29:05
Originally by: Ravenal
= being able to hide stuff to increase your rank == bad bad :(


Thats the 1 drawback that occured to me when i was thinking more about it at work....

Its a tricky point in that we don't want to penalise players who choose to hide certain stats, then again we don't want them hiding their stats just to boost their rank...

Maybe give hidden ranks a penalty of say 300 - 500 pts? not as large as the previous penalty of 1000pts/#n pilots in db, but enougth to deter abuse?

Otherwise it looks good, dispite getting myself smacked down from #7 to #35Crying or Very sad

But then i knew that would happen as i had 0 "no data" catagory's and the battle is not over yet, i will climb back up and have my revengeTwisted Evil

Edit:- Just noticed an issue with some ranks where anonymous players are ranking higher than Drahcir Nassom who is now ranked #1 Globally?

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2009.10.19 21:30:00 - [148]
 

expecting drachir support now that someone has picked up on the hidden "bug" to beef her way up to 1st rank ;)

Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
Posted - 2009.10.19 21:44:00 - [149]
 

Right, this is the deal. You'd want someone who has all skills at lvl5 to be ranked nr 1 right?

This means that he's ranked lowest in nr of skills for lvl0, 1, 2, 3 and 4 skills AS well as skillpoints for lvl0, 1, 2, 3 and 4 skills. This brings up my previous comments about this "double counting" of nr/skillpoints for each level of skill.

As far as I understand these categories are to give "new" players some chance at ranking ... at all in which case those categories need to be counted properly or not at all, otherwise the global rank just becomes a play with the mechanics of the count.

... addition suggestion: link to "full list" from characters profile > pilot ranks

Amateratsu
Caldari
The Pegasus Project
Posted - 2009.10.19 22:13:00 - [150]
 


I don't think we will ever see any players getting ALL skills to level 5 (it will take at least another 10+ years to reach that point).

Assuming Eve is still alive and kicking 10 years from now there will probably be several 100 more skills added to the game by then, so that is not the issue.

The issue is as Drahcir pointed out, that he was being penalised for not have any skills in those levels.

So either we need to remove those ranks from the board or find a way to compormise which is fair for everyone.

If we close the loophole that allows players to boost their rank by hiding their stats then we will have that compormise.

Sooner or later we are all gonna have to train our skills up to higher levels, and i don't think we should be penalised for doing so...


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