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blankseplocked Mining ships: Why must they be "weak" ?
 
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Jarna
Amarr
Air EVE
Posted - 2009.09.25 21:00:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Caer Nai
So you're saying that an oil tanker could function as a destroyer IRL? Cool

(I realize that you theoretically can make an oil tanker into a warship. But would anyone do it? And would this not make it another class of ship?)


Maybe not in our world, but in a world like new Eden, people wouldn't purposefully put their ships at risk with the known threats that lurk so much more boldly than they do in our world.

Shirley Serious
Amarr
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
Posted - 2009.09.25 21:02:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Kahega Amielden
A hulk's defense is avoidance, or friends in pewpew ships.


available ingame tools and assets, e.g. scanner, local, intel channels, etc. mean avoidance is a much more successful and profitable strategy than active defence.

maybe this needs looked at?


A bigger buffer makes afk mining in highsec safer though, that isn't too good an idea.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2009.09.25 21:09:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Sader Rykane


How is there a downside in any of this?


What you want is just too good.


So, you like shooting fish in barrels?

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2009.09.25 21:09:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Well, ORE doesn't need to defend anything as they have hired the Serpentis to run security for them. So what's your point?

Give Hulks equivalent Serpentis drones maybe? Razz

Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.09.25 21:11:00 - [35]
 

For the same reason industrial ships aren't known for their fighting ability. You don't fly Hulks to lay down the pain on combat ships, you do it to collect ore.

The Hulk has the ability to tank 0.0 belt spawns, which by far enough defense for it. Comparing the defense of a Covetor to the defense of a Hulk shows you that they did make vast improvements on the T2 hull.

In the grand scheme, the best defense I see miners using the Logoffski drive, but w/e Razz

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.25 21:11:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Sader Rykane


How is there a downside in any of this?


What you want is just too good.


So, you like shooting fish in barrels?


I like shooting at the sharks from inside the barrel.

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2009.09.25 21:15:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Sader Rykane


How is there a downside in any of this?


What you want is just too good.


So, you like shooting fish in barrels?


I like shooting at the sharks from inside the barrel.


Lost me...

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2009.09.25 21:23:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Artemis Rose
For the same reason industrial ships aren't known for their fighting ability. You don't fly Hulks to lay down the pain on combat ships, you do it to collect ore.

The Hulk has the ability to tank 0.0 belt spawns, which by far enough defense for it. Comparing the defense of a Covetor to the defense of a Hulk shows you that they did make vast improvements on the T2 hull.

In the grand scheme, the best defense I see miners using the Logoffski drive, but w/e Razz

I think that a Hulk should have at least as many HP as a freighter. Even if it is also mostly structure, it should take similar effort to kill the most massively huge mining vessel available.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.25 21:28:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane


So, you like shooting fish in barrels?


I like shooting at the sharks from inside the barrel.


Lost me...


My last hauler loss was an itty V. Due to restrictions I cannot post the death mail but over the span of 5-6 minutes she took 45,555 damage from a drake, rupture and two mining barges. If the barges had not become involved then I would have tanked those two combat ships forever.

I am not a normal pilot...

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.09.25 21:34:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Zeba on 25/09/2009 21:38:02
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Originally by: Marcus Atntony
Its called game balance. Just like how CCP admitted it was a mistake to have "mining with guns" in the drone regions.
If your barge did not fear small pvp roaming gangs, would that seem a little off 0.o.


No it wouldn't seem off at all, just because you are flying a hulk properly fit for mining all of a sudden means you need to keel over and die to anyone who attacks you?
This fit was made purely from skills on this character with no implants added to it. 80% resist to kinetic and 75% resist to thermal make even groups of brutix sad pandas.Crying or Very sad

[Hulk, Max yield/15k ehp 68/75/80/76]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Invulnerability Field II
F-S9 Regolith Deflection Shield Induction
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
'Dactyl' Type-E Asteroid Analyzer

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Or for those who have consistantly annoyed the wrong people.YARRRR!!

[Hulk, Bring It! 24k ehp 68/75/80/82]
Micro B66 Core Augmentation
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Medium Shield Extender II
Medium Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I



Then there are those who have moar isk than sense and paranoia to match. Uses the shield capacity and recharge 5% implants along with the 5% hull implant and a hg halo set to keep the sig radius under 120m .Very Happy

[Hulk, 60k eph 88/91/93/94]
Damage Control II
Makur's Modified Power Diagnostic System

Medium Shield Extender II
Estamel's Modified Invulnerability Field
Estamel's Modified Invulnerability Field
Estamel's Modified Invulnerability Field

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2009.09.25 22:29:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Cpt Branko on 25/09/2009 22:31:31
Originally by: Sader Rykane
One of the things that have always bothered me about Eve is the fact that Exhumer class vessels are forced to field some of the weakest tanks and defensive systems in the game. I don't understand how (for RP reasons) a company such as ORE would build ships as expensive and flimsy as hulks without giving them a viable means of fighting back against BC sized vessels.

And once again, what exactly is wrong with a ship having the mining capability of a hulk, with the ability to fight as well as a battle cruiser or even 50% of the capability of a command ship? If anything, I would think that pirates and "pvp'ers" would be happy to have targets out in low sec that might actually provide a challenge in pvp.

This post btw is sparked by my recent encounter with a Hulk in W-Space which I attacked with my PvP fit absolution. I dropped him to 30% structure in seconds, though I let him go in the end (I don't find kills that easy very enjoyable).


If you want a challenge, attack other combat ships? Very Happy

You generally try to ransom Hulks for the ISK if you're in it for the money. If you're in it for the challenge, you can always go for a Hulk in a Rifter.

Shame they so often try to bring protection and you have to kill them, meh.

Kaalen
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.25 23:25:00 - [42]
 

Use the closest real world example of this (that being the modern sea faring vessels) and put an oil tanker or cargo ship up against ANY military anti-ship vessel and see how well it fares.

Your'e a mining ship, ORE designed your ship for the purposes of mining as much as possible as fast as possible. Every aspect of your ship is geared up for that purpose which doesn't include military grade shields, armor plating or firepower.

I can't take on a tank in a JCB and win, why should a barge be able to take out my cruiser... except for the lols, obviously. Laughing

goazer
Amarr
CRICE Corp
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.25 23:33:00 - [43]
 

If Hulk could defend on it's own agaisnt pvp ships, all I would do is having 10 accounts with 10 hulk pilots making ISK for me in ABC land and the 11th!!!eleven!ththtbillion!!!! account would be spending all that ISK. Yes, that's how I would do.

Intense Thinker
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.25 23:55:00 - [44]
 

Freighters need to be PvP viable!

Denidil
Gallente
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.26 00:03:00 - [45]
 

boost the hulk tank? no

introduce a new line of mining vessels and their tech 2 variants? that i could see an argument for.

Mining Barges and Exhumers are cruiser sized ships - and the best of them, the Hulk, has a weak cruiser sized tank.

Introduce "Heavy Exhumers". battleship sized mining vessels - with increases in cargo, etc - but NO OFFENSIVE CAPABILITY. Battleship sized active tank though. Build cost 200-300m. maybe i'll even draw up a proposed set of stats for them later.

Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Frontier Venture
Posted - 2009.09.26 00:15:00 - [46]
 

Has anyone actually fitted a tank on a hulk (that means fitting the lows for tank) and then tried to shoot them?

Then come back here.

--Isaac

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2009.09.26 00:23:00 - [47]
 

A Bestower can tank better than a Hulk, and still be a decent hauler. Active tanking a Hulk is only good against NPC rats. The Hulk really needs more agility since the only chance you have of avoiding suicide ganking is either not mining in the first place, or warping out before the first salvo hits you.

If it can't tank, it should at least be able to run away.

Bish Ounen
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cult of War
Posted - 2009.09.26 00:32:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
A Bestower can tank better than a Hulk, and still be a decent hauler. Active tanking a Hulk is only good against NPC rats. The Hulk really needs more agility since the only chance you have of avoiding suicide ganking is either not mining in the first place, or warping out before the first salvo hits you.

If it can't tank, it should at least be able to run away.



Agreed.

If the Hulk were to be changed, I would recommend making it into either an Uber Tanker, (IE: very high resists or stupid big tank) OR give it the warp resists of a Deep Space Transport (+2 warp resist base) but absolutely not both.

Actually, the warp resist feature makes more sense from an RP role. If one is making a mining ship for use in lawless deep space, one might make it a bit tougher, but one would focus on quick escape as it is NOT a combat ship. Of course, as long as heavy dictors with infinipoint scripts exist +2 warp resist won't matter all that much, but then even the Heavy-Dictors are mostly paper (cardboard maybe?) and a Hulk with T2 drones could probably take one out quick enough to still escape.

Clurk Brodon
Yog-Sothoth Heavy Industries
Posted - 2009.09.26 01:01:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Clurk Brodon on 26/09/2009 01:01:40
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship

Annaphera
Minmatar
United Freemerchants Society
Posted - 2009.09.26 03:20:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Clurk Brodon
Edited by: Clurk Brodon on 26/09/2009 01:01:40
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship
I've been looking for that actual ship for a long time now; I'm actually surprised it doesn't already exist. Technically industrials already can (if weakly), why not mining ships? Let's get a T2 ORE Q-ship.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.09.26 03:32:00 - [51]
 

Quote:
Actually, the warp resist feature makes more sense from an RP role. If one is making a mining ship for use in lawless deep space, one might make it a bit tougher, but one would focus on quick escape as it is NOT a combat ship. Of course, as long as heavy dictors with infinipoint scripts exist +2 warp resist won't matter all that much, but then even the Heavy-Dictors are mostly paper (cardboard maybe?) and a Hulk with T2 drones could probably take one out quick enough to still escape.


An uber tank would balance it more towards groups, whereas warp core strength is pretty much a solo boost. Mining is, IMO, one of the more well-implemented professions in that, even if the activity itself is pretty boring, it becomes more efficient as more people do it. A change that encourages group mining (ubertank wont help you much..unless you have some friends near by to help drive off the attackers) and thus social interaction in an MMO is better than one that encourages solowork.

Xiozor
THE PAROXYSM
Dark Solar Empire
Posted - 2009.09.26 04:13:00 - [52]
 

Why do you think back in the 1700's Indianman trade ships had cannons and were designed to look like ships of the line?

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
Posted - 2009.09.26 04:42:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Annaphera
Originally by: Clurk Brodon
Edited by: Clurk Brodon on 26/09/2009 01:01:40
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship
I've been looking for that actual ship for a long time now; I'm actually surprised it doesn't already exist. Technically industrials already can (if weakly), why not mining ships? Let's get a T2 ORE Q-ship.



Actually, A Q_Ship in EVE would be one type of ship that looks like another. A battleship that looks liek a barge, until you turn off the camo field.

This idea has been suggested before.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.09.26 04:46:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Xiozor
Why do you think back in the 1700's Indianman trade ships had cannons and were designed to look like ships of the line?


I too can make stupid and meaningless real life comparisons.

In real life, tanks only have one main gun. EVE ships should all have only one gun, with varying power/range/etc. depending on ship class!


A 1700s trade ship and a sci-fi spaceship have NOTHING in common...and even if they did, game balance > realism

Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
Posted - 2009.09.26 05:20:00 - [55]
 

You keep talking about game balance. How does this affect game balance?

McFly
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2009.09.26 06:03:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
...The Hulk really needs more agility since the only chance you have of avoiding suicide ganking is either not mining in the first place, or warping out before the first salvo hits you....



I slightly agree on both points, but there is a third, Dont Mine in overcrowded systems that attract gankers. Mine in the middle of nowhere. if there's more than 10 people in local you're not finding a remote enough place. And for those about to whine that there aren't any systems like that... yes there is, just not in The Forge, or Lonetrek, or Domain... spread out, there are very very remote basically unused systems in Highsec, most don't have stations an that's a primary reason, but any decent mining outfit can get around that. Also the Amarr Cosmos Constellation around Zimse, Chanoun and etc was always empty a year and a half ago.

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
Posted - 2009.09.26 06:55:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Sader Rykane
You keep talking about game balance. How does this affect game balance?


It means it would no longer be unbalanced in his favor.

Admiral Bear
Posted - 2009.09.26 07:02:00 - [58]
 

imo it isnt fair pvper have advantage over miner. i like to see in game a miner battleship that can shot down pvper while mine. then miner can go to dangerus space and not die.

Esus Ionhar
m3 Corp
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2009.09.26 07:30:00 - [59]
 

RP wise, it makes a lot of sense.

You have a set size of ship. You then have a number of choices to make.

Combat ships take every single inch of that ship and devote it to combat power, both the ability to fit powerful weapons and defensive prowess.

ORE, when designing the Hulk, decided to devote all their efforts into making a ship that could mine as fast as possible. So their ships devote a lot of their resources to being able to fit strip miners, and a hefty amount to cargo space. Anything left over was put into giving it as much of a tank as possible, and the ability to field some form of damage in the form of drones.


To be able to have fit a comparable tank to a combat ship, much more of that ship would have had to have been to be devoted to that purpose. Resulting in a weaker mining ship. Is there a market for a ship with lower yield that can also tank a bit more? (and not just a mining BS) Perhaps.

If pvpers want a challenge in low sec, they go up against OTHER COMBAT SHIPS. Not a ship that was designed for mining.






Kezzle
Posted - 2009.09.26 09:15:00 - [60]
 

If a Hulk could fight like a BC, Hulk pilots wouldn't be giving up so much time that could otherwise be dedicated to training combat skills. Hulk pilots could fleet up and do L4s instead of mining, and then the supply of minerals would decrease. The market for hulls other than "Hulk" would plummet, and EVE would no longer have any variety.

CCP have done a splendid job of making a variety of ships which all have their own strengths and weaknesses, making them fit for different purposes. This is a good part of the game, and deserves preservation.


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