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Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2010.02.13 03:26:00 - [2671]
 

Originally by: Jade Mitch
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
Originally by: Prim Ary
Originally by: Jade Mitch
This is great! Projectile weapons are now about as useful as smart bombs.
This is great! Nice troll. Anyhoo, are you referring to the hundreds of projectile weapons in use, right now, blowing stuff up? Or merely a phoney concept alive only in your mind?
He probably got killed by a tempest because he didn't have a PGPP (Perimeter gate parking permit). Because people used to do this with smartbombs, but are now using artillery due to their huge alpha, I'm guessing this is what he means.
Hey you two are here whining about projectile turrets being too strong. I'm only whining about you whining enough to make CCP nerf them into the ground. You have to be clear about that because it doesn't logically follow that I was a victim, rather that I am one of those Tempest pilots you're so angry about.
Actually if you read any of the thread you'll see me whining about how autos are still subpar to pulse lasers in any situation (comparing zealot and vagabond), and how muninns got heavily nerfed due to ammo changes favoring autocannons, and how tempest is still damn horrible (though I use it anyway because any other turret bs is too slow for what I use it for).

Don't let the facts confuse you though!

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2010.02.14 21:22:00 - [2672]
 

Actually right now projectiles are 10X better than hybrids.

Although lasers still are overpowered.


Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.02.15 18:39:00 - [2673]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Actually right now projectiles are 10X better than hybrids.

Although lasers still are overpowered.


Since CCP chose to buff Projectiles instead of nerfing lasers, I'm all aboard the Buff Hybrids train now. Cool

If lasers are and have been OP, projectiles are newly OP, and they then make hybrids OP, omigod we'd have balance!

And if they made rockets and cruise missiles worthwhile at the same time, I might just have to give up posting.

Tagami Wasp
Caldari
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.02.16 01:31:00 - [2674]
 

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1259721

It's the buff hybrids now thread.


I would like to see an equivalent approach to what they did for projectiles done for hybrids as well. So far projectile revamp has been balanced and well thought.

To mare
Amarr
Advanced Technology
Posted - 2010.02.18 19:42:00 - [2675]
 

Originally by: Tagami Wasp
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1259721

It's the buff hybrids now thread.


I would like to see an equivalent approach to what they did for projectiles done for hybrids as well. So far projectile revamp has been balanced and well thought.


so what do you want a +10% dps buff on larger railgun and mid range ammo with tracking boost?


Tagami Wasp
Caldari
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2010.02.19 08:23:00 - [2676]
 

equivalent!=same

The way CCP balanced projectiles was to alter their interaction with ammo. If you are more interested, click the link in my sig. Threadnaught warning.

+15% to railguns' dmg modifier
-reduce Spike optimal bonus to 70%
+10% to Caldari railboats PG

Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.02.27 13:25:00 - [2677]
 

Originally by: CSM meeting minutes
The CSM raised the issue of the balance of different types of guns, claiming that projectile guns seemed more powerful than others.

Umm... no.

Final touches to the balancing, please.
long range ammo: 6 base damage, +40% optimal, +5% tracking
artillery: falloff scaled by tier

Insa Rexion
Minmatar
Fumar Puede Matar
Posted - 2010.02.28 15:26:00 - [2678]
 

Originally by: Xander XacXorien

2) Typhoon is a very bad starter ship, it should be like a Domi in that it has a great tank and low skill requirement so that new pilots can join the BS gang cheaply and with minimal skills. Give it a drone bonus and either guns or missiles - NOT BOTH. Perhaps here is a true skirmish ship, high tank and close range ?



firstly NO.

secondly, how would changing it to just missiles help training times for minmatar ? They still have to train projectiles for everything else, you'd just be handing our finest BS over to the Caldari. What you are asking for really is that the phoon be made a turret boat and while i understand that it's hard for starting out minnie pilots to get in a decent BS (phoon is too tough / pest is too crap) I think that removing the launchers from the phoon would be a travesty as great as putting them on a dominix.

What you should be asking for is a decent tempest, the phoon is already awesome (altho a ***** to train)

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.03.12 12:53:00 - [2679]
 

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Actually right now projectiles are 10X better than hybrids.

Autocannons are better than ALL other weapon systems now. Ability of missiles to use what is essentially single damage types without the silly explosion radius/velocity to mess things up.
Stupidly low fitting requirements, stupidly high tracking and now focused damage types .. if you plan on engaging anything below 15km range projectiles trump any other alternative.
Artillery is now on par with lasers/missiles .. different mode of operation though so not for everyone.
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Although lasers still are overpowered.

This is aimed at Scorch I take it? The crystal that is made completely useless by a single EM resist mod?
Between cap use, ****-poor tracking and spastic fitting requirements, lasers were never OP ..

I for one am glad that the CSM reps have notice the imbalance caused by the projectile boost.
It was sorely needed, but when you take the synergy between hulls, low fittings, good damage, speed etc. into account no other race has a chance in hell to compete against Minmatar sub-BS hulls .. even in a straight slug-fest.
They lack the mid-range and that is all, they are godly close in (where blasters are supposed to be) and well above average in long range.

MaterialsEngineer Kariya
Caldari
Deformed inc
A.P.O.P.H.I.S
Posted - 2010.03.17 02:53:00 - [2680]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
This is aimed at Scorch I take it? The crystal that is made completely useless by a single EM resist mod?
Between cap use, ****-poor tracking and spastic fitting requirements, lasers were never OP ..


But what's more important: cycle time to get 2 shots in, or a slower rate of fire with better damage?

Personally, I use projectiles because they do better damage than hybrids (oh, the treason of being a Caldari using Mimnatar weapons and ammo!), but have stayed away from lasers due to their very short firing range and needing crystals to use properly.

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2010.03.17 15:56:00 - [2681]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Although lasers still are overpowered.

This is aimed at Scorch I take it? The crystal that is made completely useless by a single EM resist mod?
Between cap use, ****-poor tracking and spastic fitting requirements, lasers were never OP ..
Pretty sure this is aimed at lasers being OP.

Also:
This is aimed at Barrage I take it? The ammo that is made completely useless by a single explosive resist mod?
See what I did there?

Yet people were scared ****less when See See Pee Nozh suggested a 25/50% falloff buff on autocannon tiers which would make barrage about as awesome as scorch is now. It would introduce other problems though, so I can see why they changed their mind about that.

Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2010.03.17 16:56:00 - [2682]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
They lack the mid-range and that is all, they are godly close in (where blasters are supposed to be) and well above average in long range.

This is not entirely true. As a matter of fact ACs are pretty much perfectly balanced at the moment - better than lasers up close, better than blasters in fall-off. Thing is the reverse also holds for those two cases. Blasters beat ACs up close and lasers win at range.

AC ships need to manoeuvre to get into position against different weapons and that goes for the other two as well. If any imbalance exists it is not inherent to the turrets, but rather the ships and/or tactics employed.

N.B. This does not take into account any cases other than the three short range turret systems, outside of which there still are some balance problems.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.03.20 11:02:00 - [2683]
 

Originally by: Nuts Nougat
This is aimed at Barrage I take it? The ammo that is made completely useless by a single explosive resist mod?
See what I did there?

Yeah I saw. You managed to completely ignore the fact that base explosive resists on the whole are considerably lower than base EM requiring two (2) explosive mods to achieve same effect. Nice try though.

ACs (not as applicable to large) need a significant bump in fitting costs to be anywhere near balanced. Their performance is now on par with lasers but requires no cap, have missile like damage selection, superior tracking and are so easy to fit that it is almost negligible.

Scorch is great, but with slow'ish hulls and poor tracking the benefit is all but lost except in situations where you have a swarm of minions holding targets down.

PS: Did you know that you can tracking tank a MWD/DLP Slicer using any AB frig when caught? It even translates to all larger guns as well, FMP/HP Zealot can be tracking tanked by an AB cruiser.
Range is utter crap compared to tracking everywhere but in bubble-land.

1600 RT
Posted - 2010.03.20 19:38:00 - [2684]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

ACs (not as applicable to large) need a significant bump in fitting costs to be anywhere near balanced. Their performance is now on par with lasers but requires no cap, have missile like damage selection, superior tracking and are so easy to fit that it is almost negligible.


do you realize that a focused medium pulse laser have almost the same dps of a 425mm AC and it require less grid but a bit more cpu.
it also have a better range (optimal is still better than faloff) and better tracking

Torpir Lee
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2010.03.21 01:04:00 - [2685]
 

Originally by: 1600 RT
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida

ACs (not as applicable to large) need a significant bump in fitting costs to be anywhere near balanced. Their performance is now on par with lasers but requires no cap, have missile like damage selection, superior tracking and are so easy to fit that it is almost negligible.


do you realize that a focused medium pulse laser have almost the same dps of a 425mm AC and it require less grid but a bit more cpu.
it also have a better range (optimal is still better than faloff) and better tracking


I like how people still compare raw turret stats and forget the ship bonuses.

Let's compare, shall we. Harbinger and Hurricane, two ships with identical slot layout, ship class, and gun oriented bonuses.

Hurricane gets two DPS bonuses, Harbinger gets one(Show me a T1 Amarr ship with two damage bonuses). Even with only 6 turrets compared with the Harbinger's 7, the Hurricane gets considerably more DPS than a DHP setup Harbinger. And that's without considering the damage selection you get with the AC's.

Not to mention you're wrong about the tracking. 425's have better tracking than DHP's.

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2010.03.21 03:31:00 - [2686]
 

Originally by: Torpir Lee
Hurricane gets two DPS bonuses, Harbinger gets one(Show me a T1 Amarr ship with two damage bonuses). Even with only 6 turrets compared with the Harbinger's 7, the Hurricane gets considerably more DPS than a DHP setup Harbinger. And that's without considering the damage selection you get with the AC's.
Harbinger Hurricane wat.

Yeah, the dps difference is gigantic. I mean come on, it has 50 less dps (with one less heatsink, and one less dps bonus, mind you.), but 15k more ehp, what more could you possibly want. I'd fit another damage mod on the harb but alas, cpu is ****.

Or are we talking about magical fairy setups here, where a hurricane can magically fit largest tier guns and still have a plate and 3 damage mods? Yeah it doesn't fit. You need to use lower tier guns, much like on the harb.

Also no cap use and choosable damage type advantages are fixed by the ****ty mechanics of falloff and the fact that just shooting with barrage is a better idea than switching to a close range ammo due to long reload time (harb can do this instantly btw).
Originally by: Torpir Lee
Not to mention you're wrong about the tracking. 425's have better tracking than DHP's.
No, no they don't. Tracking is a property that depends on a turret's effective range and tracking speed, and while 425mms tracks a bit better (what is it 15%?), it's effective range is half that of a DHP, thanks to the falloff curve.

Now I'm not saying that harb will kill a hurricane every time, chance is about 50/50 if both pilots know what they're doing (i.e. hurricane loading short range ammo and trying to close distance as fast as possible, and hoping the harb doesn't do too much damage before it's close enough), but hurricane is a very good ship in the first place unlike many other minmatar ones. Plus 1v1s never happen on TQ anyway.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2010.03.24 07:33:00 - [2687]
 

Originally by: Nuts Nougat
...Now I'm not saying that harb will kill a hurricane every time, chance is about 50/50 if both pilots know what they're doing

If that was the case then the chance of the Harbinger winning drops to a big fat zero.
Two medium neuts (small injector more than cover cap need) instead of the place holder RR modules combined with the 15-20% speed advantage of the Hurricane guarantees a win .. fall-off doesn't factor in when you have rammed the Hurricane into the Harbinger.
When comparing EHP it might be proper to include damage types, that Hurricane has slightly (2-4k) more when against scorch and slightly less against MF whereas the Harbinger has less against both barrage and fusion .. moot point once cap is gone though as Harbinger damage will drop to whatever is possible in between neut-cycles.

With all things being equal a Harbinger's only chance against a Hurricane today is to use the gimmicky shield-gank fit and/or the lamest of the lame: ECM drones.

Nuts Nougat
SniggWaffe
FREE KARTTOON NOW
Posted - 2010.03.24 12:38:00 - [2688]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
...Now I'm not saying that harb will kill a hurricane every time, chance is about 50/50 if both pilots know what they're doing

If that was the case then the chance of the Harbinger winning drops to a big fat zero.
Two medium neuts (small injector more than cover cap need) instead of the place holder RR modules combined with the 15-20% speed advantage of the Hurricane guarantees a win .. fall-off doesn't factor in when you have rammed the Hurricane into the Harbinger.
When comparing EHP it might be proper to include damage types, that Hurricane has slightly (2-4k) more when against scorch and slightly less against MF whereas the Harbinger has less against both barrage and fusion .. moot point once cap is gone though as Harbinger damage will drop to whatever is possible in between neut-cycles.

With all things being equal a Harbinger's only chance against a Hurricane today is to use the gimmicky shield-gank fit and/or the lamest of the lame: ECM drones.
Forum ate my post but... Cane can't fit 2 neuts unless he switches to smaller guns.. and a single neut won't even bother the harb, his 800s should last him well after one of them has already died.

Also, hurricane is a bit faster, but platecanes are so slow to turn if you start at 20km you'll take like 20 seconds to get into proper fusion damage range. (still better than using barrage, but you'll take a ton of damage while you try to get close.)

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2010.04.11 21:39:00 - [2689]
 

You don't need the med injector to make that Hurricane run. And you can run it perfectly long enough with a medium armor repair with a single small injector.

[Hurricane, No Armor Rep]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200

425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Widowmaker Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Widowmaker Heavy Missile

660 DPS w/ thermal drones

[Hurricane, 16 minutes of armor repairing]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200

425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Medium Remote Armor Repair System II
[empty high slot]

606 DPS w/ thermal drones



Alternately, if you really have to have a med injector for that MRAR then you can still upgrade 3 guns to 425's and get a bit more range and 10 more DPS out of it.

Gelvina
Posted - 2010.04.22 08:29:00 - [2690]
 

ok the changes made to projectiles lately is great.

But the general feeling is that lazors are still better?

Anyways here is my opinion:

1. reduce projectile turret reload time! this will enable tactical switching of ammo during fights. 4 secs would be 10x better than 10secs.
2. give more falloff on autocannons or let t1/faction ammo change falloff. (without this mid/long range t1 ammo is useless on auto's)
3. a falloff script for tracking computer would be nice
4. I would argue that Hail ammo is still useless but thats true for all short range t2 ammo's me thinks.
5. one of the supposed advantages of projectile weapons was always superior tracking. Maybe CCP you can just verify that this is indeed still as large an advantage as it is supposed to be?








Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2010.04.23 11:33:00 - [2691]
 

Originally by: Gelvina
ok the changes made to projectiles lately is great.

But the general feeling is that lazors are still better?

Anyways here is my opinion:

1. reduce projectile turret reload time! this will enable tactical switching of ammo during fights. 4 secs would be 10x better than 10secs.
2. give more falloff on autocannons or let t1/faction ammo change falloff. (without this mid/long range t1 ammo is useless on auto's)
3. a falloff script for tracking computer would be nice
4. I would argue that Hail ammo is still useless but thats true for all short range t2 ammo's me thinks.
5. one of the supposed advantages of projectile weapons was always superior tracking. Maybe CCP you can just verify that this is indeed still as large an advantage as it is supposed to be?



You are clearly kidding, are you? Very Happy Gallente fans will cry blood and crap castles if this goes live

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2010.04.25 23:36:00 - [2692]
 

The original post date by Nozh is 9/23/2009...is it maybe time to unsticky this thread?

Zeke Mobius
Posted - 2010.05.03 18:20:00 - [2693]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored
The original post date by Nozh is 9/23/2009...is it maybe time to unsticky this thread?


Waiting 7yrs for PL hacking to become public and ccp do something about it...

dont hold your breath.


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