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Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:25:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: xOmGx
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 15:25:31
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 15:23:04
Minmatar are good now as is.

Why you should NOT change anything in Minmatar weapons systems:

Hurricane vs. Harbinger (no damage modes, EFT info, All LvL 5 skills)

Hurricane
6 Turrets * 1.25 Damage Bonus * 1.33 ROF Bonus = 9.975 Eff turrets*
*2 Missile launchers

Harbinger
7 Turrets * 1.25 Damage Bonus = 8.75 Effective turrets

Hurricane 6*425mm (Hail) + 2 HAM (Rage ammo) = 459 DPS (379 turrets)
Harbinger 7*Heavy Pulse (Conflagration) = 369 DPS

Tempest vs. Armageddon

Tempest
6 Turrets * 1.25 Damage Bonus * 1.33 ROF Bonus = 9.975 Effective turrets*
*2 Missile launchers

Armageddon
7 Turrent * 1.33 ROF Bonus = 9.31 Effective turrets

Tempest 6*800mm AC(Hail) + 2*Siage Launcher(Rage Torp) = 665 DPS (505 Turrets)
Armageddon 7*Megapulses(Conflagration) = 525 DPS

So minmatar are overpovered now and if they get any more damage buff... EvE will become EvE - Minmatar edition :((

Taking in fact that Tempest fleet issue and Machariel will recive 1 extra turret slot i DEMAND 7.5% ROF bonus on Imperial Armageddon!!!

New Tempest fleet
7 Turrets * 1.25 Damage Bonus * 1.33 ROF Bonus = 11.6375 Effective turrets

Armageddon 7.5% ROF
7 Turrets * 1.6 ROF Bonus = 11.2 Effective turrets

With 7.5% ROF Imperial Navy Armaeddon will be a fair counterpart to Tempest Fleet.
_____________________________


I think reading should be a required skill for posting.

Point A that you are a troll:
You used Hail and Conflaguration as your test models but ammo changes will be done to T1 ammo. Neither Hail nor Conflaguration has any practical combat value outside of point blank, no movement combat (which isn't practical except against POSes). The optimal range penalty still put the Minmatar ship will into the Amarr's optimal for the entire fight, while the Minmatar ship will have to be at kissing range and nearly stopped (and yes, I've tested this in practical combat) for the Minmatar ship to even hit.

Point B that you are a troll:
Minmatar Projectile weapons operate mostly in Falloff, which means average real damage is only 38.5% of theoretical (EFT) damage. Using typical PVP ammo in battleship and battlecruiser combat, the Amarr ships maintain an advantage because:
A.) Their optimal is high enough that it will cover the 24km disruptor range easily, whereas Minmatar Projectiles requires both Optimal + Falloff, and it will be still less than the Amarr's optimal range alone.
B.) Tracking bonuses affect slower ships less effectively, and can be more easily countered by ships of similar sizes. This is especially true as current Minmatar battleships are either equal or heavier in mass than their counterparts.
C.) Amarr High Damage/short range crystals are 10% higher damage than Minmatar Projectiles (As proven by CCP)

Point C that you are a Troll:
Old Fleet Tempest had an extra midslot, allowing it to be shield tanked, and allowing the lows to be populated by Gyros. New Fleet Tempest has one less midslot, one extra turret hardpoint. Higher Agility and higher speed. This gives the new Tempest a total net loss in DPS AND Tank, without any compensation.

Even CCP recognizes that the Tempest is not a good ship anymore.

Are you THAT much of a fail?

Vertical Axis
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:32:00 - [182]
 

Edited by: Vertical Axis on 24/09/2009 16:32:46
Originally by: xOmGx
post


Please stop posting. You are ignoring the other two critical components of how to judge weapons systems, namely range and tracking. You're also using shortest-range t2 ammo, which almost universally recognized as ****. Because you do this, you indicate that you know nothing about the game.

Nozh, the issue in all turrets is range vs damage. All of them. As a severely over-simplified chart which is completely unscientific but gets the point across, this is what we have now as far as top damage vs range regarding turrets:

3km and less: Gallente
3-10km: Minmatar
10+: Amarr

Which obviously gives amarr a tremendous advantage, especially when you consider the vast disparity in damage as range increases. Gallente goes down to nothing by 10-15km, minmatar goes to half by 15-20 and non-existent by 30-40, but amarr and its optimals keeps full damage for almost its entire range.

Fix that and you'll fix turrets. Ignore that and we'll have a half-assed fix which still leaves us a useless minmtar race.

Vertical Axis
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:50:00 - [183]
 

Edited by: Vertical Axis on 24/09/2009 17:21:19
O baby its chart time.

All ships are fit with the largest turret they can fit and all are using long-range t2 ammo and no damage mods or tracking enhancers or anything but turrets. An exception to this is the hurricane, which I gave 2 heavy missile launchers with default t1 missiles, which is why the chart shows it doing 50 dps out to a long range. Drones are ignored. Obviously ignoring drones hurts the gallente a bit, but only on the bc arena - all three battleships listed can field 4 heavy drones I believe.

BC's:bc chart
BS: bs chart

I couldn't get the ticks for range to show up on the second, but the distance is the same, 0-65km.

Observe how the gallente are completely screwed, how minmatar starts out almost the same as amarr and then immediately loses its advantage, and how amarr with scorch simply dominates everything on the field in terms of range and dps.

xOmGx
Gallente
A-Priori
Red Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:52:00 - [184]
 

Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 16:53:18
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 16:52:54
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 16:52:27
To Orakkus
maybe you just can't properly use T2 damage colse range ammo.
Personaly i use T2 damage ammo (in some cases) because it deliver more DPS than faction one (colse range fitting's only), nothing wrong with it.

Fallof yes fallof - it is actualy an advantage of minmatar race you able to hit somesing at oprimal + fallof + fallof that give you an big range where you can deliver some dps
Some matar pilots are telling me that vagabond/tempes almost didn't miss at their optimal + fallof and just getting slight DPS reduction.
*i'll test this eventyaly one day*

you just won's see that minmatar can deliver MORE dps than amarr


you need to look @ optimal + fallof = effective range.

Update DPS
yes you right using faction ammo minmatar ship's deliver less turret dps than amarr one, but with launcher hardpoint's used they still deliver more dps.
______________________

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:53:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Vertical Axis
Edited by: Vertical Axis on 24/09/2009 16:32:46
Nozh, the issue in all turrets is range vs damage. All of them. As a severely over-simplified chart which is completely unscientific but gets the point across, this is what we have now as far as top damage vs range regarding turrets:

3km and less: Gallente
3-10km: Minmatar
10+: Amarr

Which obviously gives amarr a tremendous advantage, especially when you consider the vast disparity in damage as range increases. Gallente goes down to nothing by 10-15km, minmatar goes to half by 15-20 and non-existent by 30-40, but amarr and its optimals keeps full damage for almost its entire range.

Fix that and you'll fix turrets. Ignore that and we'll have a half-assed fix which still leaves us a useless minmtar race.


Originally by: Nozh
You'll quickly notice what players have already been pointing out here on the forums. The high damage / close range projectile ammo is subpar when compared to the other ammo types, but when you look at the bigger picture, you'll also see there are some compensations. The original balance of projectile ammo seems to be skewed towards long range variations. Adjusting the projectile ammo to match its counterparts gives Phased Plasma ammo a 10% damage increase and EMP ammo a ~9.1% damage increase, while reducing the damage of the long range variations. The change will give auto-cannons a good performance boost, and make long range munitions easier to balance through the damage modifier.


Nowhere in here do I see a concession to projectile dps remaining in falloff like it has been.

Originally by: Nozh

Other things we might be looking at:

Auto-cannon tracking adjustments
Auto-cannon tier balancing



By this, I see an increase of tracking for large autos, but I am still at a loss what this means in regards to minny balance because our BS would need to be faster and more agile to take advantage of a tracking boost, and our ships are clearly not designed that way.

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.24 17:03:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: xOmGx
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 16:53:18
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 16:52:54
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 16:52:27

Fallof yes fallof - it is actualy an advantage of minmatar race you able to hit somesing at oprimal + fallof + fallof that give you an big range where you can deliver some dps
Some matar pilots are telling me that vagabond/tempes almost didn't miss at their optimal + fallof and just getting slight DPS reduction.
*i'll test this eventyaly one day*

you just won's see that minmatar can deliver MORE dps than amarr


you need to look @ optimal + fallof = effective range.

Update DPS
yes you right using faction ammo minmatar ship's deliver less turret dps than amarr one, but with launcher hardpoint's used they still deliver more dps.
______________________


The fit you used is fail and already proven to not be practical, and you keep saying things are so because you "heard them". Well, this minny pilot is telling you this from first hand experience that I popped a SB at 30 km before with 220 autos with two volleys for a total of <68> damage. 68 damage. Theres a bit of rocken dps for you.

sylvester stallowned
Trotters Independent Trading
Posted - 2009.09.24 17:17:00 - [187]
 

Edited by: sylvester stallowned on 24/09/2009 17:19:06
Originally by: xOmGx

Stuff


Lets look at the expert in minmatar weapons kill record:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=81164&view=ships_weapons
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=xOmGx&tab=known_ships

Not 1 kill in a minmatar ship

Hes obviously trolling just to try to de-rail any good ideas or criticism in this thread.

Orakkus
Minmatar
m3 Corp
Posted - 2009.09.24 17:23:00 - [188]
 

Originally by: xOmGx
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 16:53:18
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 16:52:54
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 16:52:27
To Orakkus
maybe you just can't properly use T2 damage colse range ammo.
Personaly i use T2 damage ammo (in some cases) because it deliver more DPS than faction one (colse range fitting's only), nothing wrong with it.


Oh, that's rich. You don't even fly Minmatar and now you are telling me that Hail works great? Again, this particular issue has been mentioned multiple times in this thread alone that T2 close range ammo penalties suck. Yep, you're a troll.. but its just so fun batting your "wannabeness" around.

Originally by: xOmGx
Fallof yes fallof - it is actualy an advantage of minmatar race you able to hit somesing at oprimal + fallof + fallof that give you an big range where you can deliver some dps
Some matar pilots are telling me that vagabond/tempes almost didn't miss at their optimal + fallof and just getting slight DPS reduction.
*i'll test this eventyaly one day*

Originally by: xOmGx

you need to look @ optimal + fallof = effective range.


Vagabond is the only ship (again, if you really read anything in any forums) that would be overpowered (though only slightly) to any falloff boost. And if you (or your Matari buddies) think that the Tempest is in line with the Vagabond.. then I would LOVE to see your buddies speed fit Tempests while using Hail. I would. Really.

As I mentioned before, Optimal on Amarr close range weapons is greater than Minmatar Optimal AND Falloff. And after Optimal, the quality of hits goes down.. resulting in the 38.5% number for real damage on target at Optimal+Falloff.

So, why don't you go bug the people who want a buff to rockets, too. I'm sure they'll appreciate your logic too.



Gargamell Smurf
Posted - 2009.09.24 17:26:00 - [189]
 

Edited by: Gargamell Smurf on 24/09/2009 17:49:23
Originally by: Abrazzar
Edited by: Abrazzar on 24/09/2009 10:29:35
About the reloading issue: Give the Controlled Burst skill a bonus to projectile weapon ammo capacity or maybe even a reduction in reloading time if possible. Currently Projectile Weapons do not benefit from this skill and adding a bonus like that would address two things in one go.


What about magazine size?!?! when you add the stupid rate of fire to the ridiculous reloading time, one wonders what is the point of having artillery?!?!
Quote:

-...And I am in favor of boosting 1400mm artillery to be on par with tachyons ...-



Can anyone explain to me why Beam LASERS not only produce more DPS, but seem to yield higher VOLLEY damage than ARTILLERY?! That is ******ed. I'm sorry (actually, i'm not sorry) but that is just stupid.
Quote:

-...and add a smaller artillery for more medium ranges and better tracking. Something like a Quad 720mm Siege Artillery Battery would be nice....-


Can anyone explain to my why beam lasers and rail guns have 3 DIFFERENT SIZES and ARTILLERY have only 2 SIZES? WTF?

It is about dam time ARTILLERY got a damage balance. ARTILLERY is supposed to be the king of alpha strike/volley damage.

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.24 17:43:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Vertical Axis
BC's:bc chart
BS: bs chart

Observe how the gallente are completely screwed, how minmatar starts out almost the same as amarr and then immediately loses its advantage, and how amarr with scorch simply dominates everything on the field in terms of range and dps.


I think you're misinterpeting how turrets works, in falloff ranges the damage drops off much more gracefully than you've shown. Here's a good guide: http://wiki.eveonline.com/wiki/Turret_damage

Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
Posted - 2009.09.24 17:44:00 - [191]
 

Originally by: Lumy
While you're at it, could you reorder ammo a bit? Imho the best order would be: Fusion, Phased plasma, EMP, Titanium sabot, Nuclear, Proton, Depleted uranium, Carbonized lead. The point is to have racial damage ammunition types as most damaging, best tracking and longest range ones. Than have mixed damage ammo sprinkled in between.



While the basic suggestion is good already, I wanna voice my support for this. Projos really should have exp focused ammo as the top damage and top range ones, and PP as second as it curently is to make them at least remotely useful at shooting non-angel NPCs.

xOmGx
Gallente
A-Priori
Red Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.24 17:46:00 - [192]
 

Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 17:52:23
Magazine capacity should be same @ any ammo type.

Better alpha umm maybee only from Abaddon but i rarely see this ship acting as sniper coz it has HUGE capacitor issue

Keep in mind that you can use only 7 Tachyon T2 lasers from Apoc with no damage mod's (Apoc 213/1913 Tempest 216/2749, dps/alpha)
I should say that real issue for minmatar artilery CTA sniperboat - optimal range and maybe ROF.

It would be interesting for you to chek fitting s and see that smallest one from L sized beam laser wery rarely used and possible to see more as exeption.

Yes i read forums, and yes we debate in our corpchat amarr - minmatar issue each time a newbee arrive in our corp xD
I newer said i use Hail myself but i use Conflagration - it is very usefull in close range BS engagement.
As far as i see most used ammo for minmatar - Barrage and Rep Fleet EMP

*And after Optimal, the quality of hits goes down*
After optimal on pulses you can't hit anything - virtualy not existing fallof.

Race special's
Amarr good optimal
Minmatar - exelent fallof NO CAP USAGE for shooting

PS.
Ah you have found my lovely KB stat's :(
__________

Uncle Smokey
Posted - 2009.09.24 17:59:00 - [193]
 

Note: Replying to the above poster would be wasted effort.

Gargamell Smurf
Posted - 2009.09.24 18:00:00 - [194]
 

Edited by: Gargamell Smurf on 24/09/2009 18:04:56
Laughing i have plenty of effort to waste Laughing

Originally by: xOmGx
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 17:52:23
Keep in mind that you can use only 7 Tachyon T2 lasers from Apoc with no damage mod's (Apoc 213/1913 Tempest 216/2749, dps/alpha)


um i think you are confused. ? "you can use only 7 Tachyon T2 lasers from Apoc" ?
Quote:

*And after Optimal, the quality of hits goes down*
After optimal on pulses you can't hit anything - virtualy not existing fallof.


auto cannons falloff range is not flat. as you move out across falloff, damage continues to drop. unless you are shooting in the near side of falloff, the damage is practically nothing. compare range of pulse to range of autocannons and consider, any hit more than halfway out the falloff is nothing.
Quote:

Race special's
Amarr good optimal
Minmatar - exelent fallof NO CAP USAGE for shooting



Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.09.24 18:00:00 - [195]
 

Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 24/09/2009 18:03:59
Originally by: xOmGx

Better alpha umm maybee only from Abaddon but i rarely see this ship acting as sniper coz it has HUGE capacitor issue



Not if you know how to fit it...

Quote:

Keep in mind that you can use only 7 Tachyon T2 lasers from Apoc with no damage mod's (Apoc 213/1913 Tempest 216/2749, dps/alpha)
I should say that real issue for minmatar artilery CTA sniperboat - optimal range and maybe ROF.



With 7 Tachyons the Apocalypse is WAAAAAY better than the maelstrom with 8 1400mm. Just to let you know...

Quote:

It would be interesting for you to chek fitting s and see that smallest one from L sized beam laser wery rarely used and possible to see more as exeption.



That is because the tracking of beams is so damn good that you don't NEED to use the smaller versions for anything.

Quote:

Yes i read forums, and yes we debate in our corpchat amarr - minmatar issue each time a newbee arrive in our corp xD
I newer said i use Hail myself but i use Conflagration - it is very usefull in close range BS engagement.
As far as i see most used ammo for minmatar - Barrage and Rep Fleet EMP




Then why the hell did you post your pathetic comparison between maximum theoretical damage between ships without considering resultant tank, range and consequently REAL damage? You are either a troll or have an agenda against improving projectiles and are purposelly trying to start a campaign of lies and confusion here.

Quote:

*And after Optimal, the quality of hits goes down*
After optimal on pulses you can't hit anything - virtualy not existing fallof.



That WOULD be an issue if pulses didn't have MORE optimal+falloff than ACs.

MEGA Pulses with scorch have 45+10
800mm with Barrage have 6+46


Refer to the graphics posted above to understand what this means...

Quote:

Race special's
Amarr good optimal
Minmatar - exelent fallof NO CAP USAGE for shooting



Lets make it right:

Minmatar - less total cap, no cap weapons, active tank bonuses
Amarr - more total cap, cap weapons, passive tank bonuses


Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2009.09.24 18:15:00 - [196]
 

Regarding autocannons, if the strongest T1 projectile ammo becomes the penalty-free equivalent of hail, such as lasers and hybrids have in navy multifrequency/antimatter, it will make autocannons greatly overpowered in relation to specifically blasters. Basically having very much comparable dps of usually more favourable type, at greater range due to more comfortable falloff, with no need to use cap and with better inherent weapon tracking... I've never been a hybrid whiner but I really think this isn't the best way to go with the issue.

The gaping wound of minmatar are the 2 out of 3 battleships, tempest simply being utter rubbish and maelstrom being somewhat too narrow in usability in today's gang-intensive pvp environment where active tanks are of questionable every day use. Not a bad ship really, just obsolete in most typical scenarios. I can name few other useless ships, like stabber, but realistically who gives a damn about t1 cruisers. Omen sucks too, amarr are still great. ACs themselves, for all the whinings that go on, aren't nearly as bad as people claim.

Artilleries on the other hand I really don't know much about, but from what I've seen on paper CCP's approach isn't bad, looks logical.

Uncle Smokey
Posted - 2009.09.24 18:37:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: Vrabac
ACs themselves, for all the whinings that go on, aren't nearly as bad as people claim.


That is just a claim, unless you back it up. For what I know, ACs would not be mentioned here if people who made the claims had nothing to back them up with.

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.24 18:38:00 - [198]
 

@posters: ignore the troll guys, it's serving it's purpose. He draws no legitimate comparisons and his "fits" are laughable.

@above: er, what? ACs do much less dps than blasters, especially in falloff. While you can change ammo, it requires info beforehand or takes 10 seconds, and even then it's a guess that banks on the fact that the opponent isn't fitting resist rigs, and on TOP of that isn't anywhere close to pure damage types (lolemp). I agree blasters could use some love but they're obsoleted by lasers, not autocannons. Even with these changes, blasters will have a good dps margin in their range which, may I remind you, Minnie fails at existing within due to poor base stats and odd slot layout. The new phoon swap will make it thicker, but it's no megathron. The mael is a whale, nothing to see there.

Hrodgar Ortal
Minmatar
Ma'adim Logistics
Posted - 2009.09.24 18:45:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: xOmGx
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 15:25:31
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 15:23:04
Minmatar are good now as is.



Just one minor point...
Why are you comparing the Tempest with the Geddon???
The Pest is a tier2 battleship the Geddon is a tier1.
If you want to make any kind of comparison they need to be between the Apoc and Pest or Phoon and Geddon.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.09.24 18:57:00 - [200]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 24/09/2009 18:59:10
Quite right. With a tweak to large artillery's damage, extra clip size and shuffling ammo/damage types around (for the explosive primary damage) a bit and projectiles are more than halfway decent.
Still need an increase in tracking for large AC's to allow for the close range option and the added fall-off as already mentioned.

Small guns are almost perfectly balanced as far as I have experienced. Largely due to the much tighter spread, but as close to perfect as we are likely to get.
Cruiser/BC guns on Rupture, Hurricane, Vagabond which are by far the most frequently used gunboats are adequate as is. They will benefit immensely from more fall-off and more focused damage types, so much so that the class risks being skewed heavily in their favour.
Any increase in medium projectile damage should be taken out of their tracking .. damn Rupture is almost unbeatable as it is guns/missiles/drones and easy fittings Sad

PS (off topic): Tachyons for all the hate/love they invoke are maddening to fit and use. Even with maxed skills I need multiple fitting mods for a full rack and the oversized capacitor on the Apocalypse is sucked dry in no time flat.
PPS: 800's on the Apocalypse will be the new king of Amarr PvP if all changes to ammo/range/tracking go through Twisted Evil

Vrabac
Zawa's Fan Club
Posted - 2009.09.24 18:59:00 - [201]
 

Edited by: Vrabac on 24/09/2009 19:01:09
Originally by: AstroPhobic
@posters: ignore the troll guys, it's serving it's purpose. He draws no legitimate comparisons and his "fits" are laughable.

@above: er, what? ACs do much less dps than blasters, especially in falloff. While you can change ammo, it requires info beforehand or takes 10 seconds, and even then it's a guess that banks on the fact that the opponent isn't fitting resist rigs, and on TOP of that isn't anywhere close to pure damage types (lolemp). I agree blasters could use some love but they're obsoleted by lasers, not autocannons. Even with these changes, blasters will have a good dps margin in their range which, may I remind you, Minnie fails at existing within due to poor base stats and odd slot layout. The new phoon swap will make it thicker, but it's no megathron. The mael is a whale, nothing to see there.


Phoon sure is no megatheron, it's better. Razz

ACs do less dps in falloff, but I suppose blasters shoot at optimal by default? For some reason you assume minnie ship is in notable falloff, but gallente one isnt. Gallente need 10 seconds to reload too. But get this funny detail: They don't have anything to reload. They do kinetic and thermal and that's their one and only choice. Not to mention it's usually done ahead of fight.

Other than that, try comparing dps values of BSs and BCs and see. Gallente won't notably out-dps the minmatar (or amarr for that matter) with realistic fits. Triple mag stab mega isn't really such a fit, triple mag stab neutron hyperion even less. And even when they do out-dps them by some pitiful percentage, it gets offset by horrible dmg types they get stuck with, as well as total lack of options when it comes to deciding do they go balls deep or keep away.

Only ship that comes short of any other equivalents is the poor tempest, which is certainly a very bad BS. Not because of autocannons but because of the fact it itself sucks (which has to do with slot layouts and hardpoint distribution, as you noted).

So what we might get now is minie ammo that does hail-like damage with emp-like falloff and tracking. Is this ok? Might be for minmatars alone, but if blasters don't get boosted in some fashion I really fail to see their point any more, and already messed up ballance gets even worse. What might happen is that devs listen to blaster whiners too, which isn't impossible of course.

Grathar
Posted - 2009.09.24 19:00:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: xOmGx
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 17:52:23
Magazine capacity should be same @ any ammo type.

Better alpha umm maybee only from Abaddon but i rarely see this ship acting as sniper coz it has HUGE capacitor issue

Keep in mind that you can use only 7 Tachyon T2 lasers from Apoc with no damage mod's (Apoc 213/1913 Tempest 216/2749, dps/alpha)
I should say that real issue for minmatar artilery CTA sniperboat - optimal range and maybe ROF.

It would be interesting for you to chek fitting s and see that smallest one from L sized beam laser wery rarely used and possible to see more as exeption.

Yes i read forums, and yes we debate in our corpchat amarr - minmatar issue each time a newbee arrive in our corp xD
I newer said i use Hail myself but i use Conflagration - it is very usefull in close range BS engagement.
As far as i see most used ammo for minmatar - Barrage and Rep Fleet EMP

*And after Optimal, the quality of hits goes down*
After optimal on pulses you can't hit anything - virtualy not existing fallof.

Race special's
Amarr good optimal
Minmatar - exelent fallof NO CAP USAGE for shooting

PS.
Ah you have found my lovely KB stat's :(
__________



You do realize that Minmatar have less cap than anyone else right?
Ever notice why nobody really likes using Minmatar for RR gang?

As it is clear that you have never had to fight in fall-off, you would not be able to actually comment in this thread with any real experience other than "he said, she said". Minmatar do POOR damage fighting in fall-off to gain that tiny edge.

Have a look around at the serious pvp alliances. If they can help it their kb's are jam packed with Amarr because they like to win...it is the same reason you fly Amarr as your KB stats show.

So don't worry, even after these small (loooooonnnggg over due) changes to Minmatar weapons, your FOTM Amarr will still
WTFBBQPWN all, so take comfort in that.Laughing




xOmGx
Gallente
A-Priori
Red Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.24 19:02:00 - [203]
 

Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 19:13:34
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal

Just one minor point...
Why are you comparing the Tempest with the Geddon???
The Pest is a tier2 battleship the Geddon is a tier1.
If you want to make any kind of comparison they need to be between the Apoc and Pest or Phoon and Geddon.



Apoc has no real use othervise than sniper and he has no bonuses to Damage so in overal dps will suck compared to Armageddon or Tempest (well yes it can have 60km+ on scorch ammo but it is other long story)

Phoop well i can't say enything good about this ship, and i realy think compare Phoon with Armageddon is unfair to Phoon.
Mael - wery questinable ship

I like to see RR tempest (6*800AC + 2LAR) 1 damagemod fitted

I do shoot sometimes on CTA on deep deep fallof with my tachy.. but as usualy can't hit a damm thing but i'm amarr :)

PS
I started to train amarr in old old times when everyone was telling me - *Amarr are too difficult to use cap issue all the time go for Gallente or Minmatar* But i did wat i did, it took some pation and i had hard times training Amarr (60% EM resistance on armor \0/ <3), but i'm glad with my choise.

I see load's of SnipeApoc's in CTA fleets even some true minmatar pilotes go for Apoc just coz it's range and ability to fit some decent tank (compared to Tempest)

CCP should focus on range issue (AC and Arty) dps is fine as for me.
__________

Ekeim
Posted - 2009.09.24 19:08:00 - [204]
 

I'm not very knowledgeable about projectile weapon systems in game currently, but after reading through this thread I wanted to ask if some of the discussed changes were implemented - what would the difference between hybrid turrets and projectile turrets be?

I've gathered from several posts that rate of fire is lower on projectiles than hybrids, but would that be the only drawback? If projectiles are brought in line to have the same range as hybrids, as well as the same damage per shot with equivalent hybrid range ammo, would the lower rate of fire be enough to balance against the ability to choose damage types and use no cap?

Another thing I was curious about was the focus on alpha damage. If a weapon system is designed primarily around alpha, doesn't that inherently limit it to a small range of situational effectiveness?

Lili Lu
Posted - 2009.09.24 19:13:00 - [205]
 

Edited by: Lili Lu on 24/09/2009 19:24:51
Thank you for deciding finally to address projectiles. I'm sure there have been many good arguments for and against your proposed changes, and which would be for against my suggestions in response to your proposed changes. But to read through the entire 7 pages at this time I cannot do. So, that being said:

Giving the projectile ammo a new stat to tracking since they don't have a stat for cap use, OK. However, be careful with it. They should not be big bonuses or it could really mess up the balance between the weapon types. Also, bringing the progression of damage v range in line with hybrid and lasers - ok.

50% increase in volley damage with 50% decrease to rof I do not like. 1400s are already sort of frustrating to wait for them to fire again. Waiting half again longer will really be snooze inducing and I think many who like it in theory will find in practice it to be a real irritant. ALso, as someone did point out, small arty is rather good, and increasing volley damage by 50% would hurt frigs a bunch while buffing ships that really do not need it (jag, thrasher). Certainly there should be a damage increase, It could be less, maybe 10-20%, with rof staying where it is. This would give projectile a little dps boost, which they need, and a small volley boost for flavor.

Clip size however is a big issue, do not ignore it. Again it is an aid to dps. And, lag induced endless reload in fleet fights is a big pita. Increased clip size is a must to improve the performance of projectiles.

Tier balancing on autocanons does need to be done. Tracking I think is not needed if you are going to give falloff assistance to tracking mods, and a tracking stat to the ammo itself.

As to the order of ammo, it does need to be done. It does not make backstory and racial difference sense that EMP is the highest damage. I would suggest the following changes:

(-50) fusion (+0)nuclear
(-37.5)phased (+20)depleted
(-25) titanium (+40)proton
(-12.5)emp (+60)carbon

So, once again thanks for getting to this issue. It's been needed. However, please don't overdo it, as it appears you are doing. A huge increase in arty volley and decrease in rof and leaving dps in the same spot will not be good imo.

edit- as to the range issue on artys. I think that having projectiles with a falloff flavor is actually good for game diversity. Lasers and hybrids get good optimal, but lasers get very short falloff. Minmatar sniping is done in falloff. Nothing wrong there as long as the optimal is around 150km, it's ok that the falloff addition brings the same distance as the lasers longer optimal with shorter falloff. With a volley and dps buff relative to other guns it should even out the falloff disadvantage.

To those complaining about the apoc, get real. It is the only thing the ship has, what other bonus would you give it. And anyway if you want to complain about optimal look at the rokh, it gets a larger optimal bonus with the longest optimal range guns already.

What minmatar needs is a Tempest that is bonused the right way. I think keeping with your historical scheme for minmatar a falloff bonus would be appropriate to replace the damage bonus. The falloff would assist ac against pulse, and it would assist arty dps loss to falloff. As to why I would drop the damage bonus instead of the rof bonus for the falloff bonus it is because it would differentiate from the Mael which can still be configured for fleet. This sould make the Mael/Tempest difference like the Apoc/Abaddon difference, damage + tank bonuses -v- racial range bonus + racial deficiency compensation bonus (cap use, rof).

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.09.24 19:28:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 24/09/2009 18:59:10
Quite right. With a tweak to large artillery's damage, extra clip size and shuffling ammo/damage types around (for the explosive primary damage) a bit and projectiles are more than halfway decent.
Still need an increase in tracking for large AC's to allow for the close range option and the added fall-off as already mentioned.

Small guns are almost perfectly balanced as far as I have experienced. Largely due to the much tighter spread, but as close to perfect as we are likely to get.
Cruiser/BC guns on Rupture, Hurricane, Vagabond which are by far the most frequently used gunboats are adequate as is. They will benefit immensely from more fall-off and more focused damage types, so much so that the class risks being skewed heavily in their favour.
Any increase in medium projectile damage should be taken out of their tracking .. damn Rupture is almost unbeatable as it is guns/missiles/drones and easy fittings Sad

PS (off topic): Tachyons for all the hate/love they invoke are maddening to fit and use. Even with maxed skills I need multiple fitting mods for a full rack and the oversized capacitor on the Apocalypse is sucked dry in no time flat.
PPS: 800's on the Apocalypse will be the new king of Amarr PvP if all changes to ammo/range/tracking go through Twisted Evil


Only the most idiotic player of all eve history would use 800mm instead of Pulse lasers on current abaddon incarnation. Pulses have more range (specially on apoc) more damage... Also cap issue is non existent on the APOC. IT can fire longer with pulse laser than a tempest can fire with AC (hint.. an APOC can fire forever with pulses)

Seishi Maru
doMAL S.A.
Posted - 2009.09.24 19:35:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Ekeim
I'm not very knowledgeable about projectile weapon systems in game currently, but after reading through this thread I wanted to ask if some of the discussed changes were implemented - what would the difference between hybrid turrets and projectile turrets be?

I've gathered from several posts that rate of fire is lower on projectiles than hybrids, but would that be the only drawback? If projectiles are brought in line to have the same range as hybrids, as well as the same damage per shot with equivalent hybrid range ammo, would the lower rate of fire be enough to balance against the ability to choose damage types and use no cap?

Another thing I was curious about was the focus on alpha damage. If a weapon system is designed primarily around alpha, doesn't that inherently limit it to a small range of situational effectiveness?


clear and huge differences. Arties vs rails.

Rails have longer range, better tracking and better long term dps due to reload, and are easier to fit

Arties have better alpha strike and no cap usage and have a LIMITED capability of selecting damage types.


Blasters vs AC.

Blasters have better damage (by far) and better optimal.
AC have better falloff, limited damage type selection and no cap usage.

Contrary to popular belief.. the tracking are fairly similar...

The optimal and falloff basically neutralize each other on a large area of the engagement envelope, becoming an advantage to AC at ranges where both are already doing less than 60% dps.

Dinamita Tona
Minmatar
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.24 19:38:00 - [208]
 

Edited by: Dinamita Tona on 24/09/2009 19:40:52
i might be wrong, but all those eft fittings and dps have not included ammo reload time?
amar have practicly none, everyone else have 10 seconds penalty

please take view on that part as well

thing that disturbs me at most atm - penalties from minnie t2 projectiles
as hail is by far highest dps ammo,
its kinda weird that for example on sleipnir gives 7*-7% cap recharge, at same time with maelstorm only 8*-5% cap recharge (with 1 gun more), sabre at same point could expect 7*-7% cap recharge rate
barrage is same for all 3

quake even worse, larger the projectile less penalty added
maelstorm can exepct 8*-10% speed and 8*-12% cap recharge
sleipnir can expect 7*-14% speed and 7*-16% cap recharge
sabre can expect -7*-20% speed and 7*-25% cap recharge
tremor is same in its failness for all 3 examples

so why to use t2 ammo when faction even with less dps performs better?



Uncle Smokey
Posted - 2009.09.24 19:38:00 - [209]
 

Where have I seen most of these speculations before?

Oh yeah, maybe the threads before this one, that only those who actually used the guns at hand, and few other, were looking into. The rest had no reason to.

Run in circles all you want, but the result is here.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.09.24 19:39:00 - [210]
 

Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 24/09/2009 19:44:58
Originally by: Lili Lu

50% increase in volley damage with 50% decrease to rof I do not like. 1400s are already sort of frustrating to wait for them to fire again. Waiting half again longer will really be snooze inducing and I think many who like it in theory will find in practice it to be a real irritant. ALso, as someone did point out, small arty is rather good, and increasing volley damage by 50% would hurt frigs a bunch while buffing ships that really do not need it (jag, thrasher). Certainly there should be a damage increase, It could be less, maybe 10-20%, with rof staying where it is. This would give projectile a little dps boost, which they need, and a small volley boost for flavor.



50% is the BARE minimum to make alpha marginally useful, 100% would be better.


Quote:

Tier balancing on autocanons does need to be done. Tracking I think is not needed if you are going to give falloff assistance to tracking mods, and a tracking stat to the ammo itself.



There is no reasonable motive NOT to balance ACs tiers. They are screwed and in need to be balanced. As it is now ther eis no motive to use the high tier weapons, and they are ridiculously underpowered when compared to mega pulses, for example.

Quote:

So, once again thanks for getting to this issue. It's been needed. However, please don't overdo it, as it appears you are doing. A huge increase in arty volley and decrease in rof and leaving dps in the same spot will not be good imo.



You offer no reason for this to be "no good", except for your obviously bias toward amarr which can be seen in all your posts in "Ships and Modules".

Quote:

edit- as to the range issue on artys. I think that having projectiles with a falloff flavor is actually good for game diversity. Lasers and hybrids get good optimal, but lasers get very short falloff. Minmatar sniping is done in falloff. Nothing wrong there as long as the optimal is around 150km, it's ok that the falloff addition brings the same distance as the lasers longer optimal with shorter falloff. With a volley and dps buff relative to other guns it should even out the falloff disadvantage.



As long as the falloff of artillery becomes considerably bigger than it is today it is ok. Double it and the optimal can stay as it is.

Quote:

To those complaining about the apoc, get real. It is the only thing the ship has, what other bonus would you give it. And anyway if you want to complain about optimal look at the rokh, it gets a larger optimal bonus with the longest optimal range guns already.



The Apocalypse is better than the rokh, mostly because Beam lasers >>>> Rails...

Quote:

What minmatar needs is a Tempest that is bonused the right way. I think keeping with your historical scheme for minmatar a falloff bonus would be appropriate to replace the damage bonus. The falloff would assist ac against pulse, and it would assist arty dps loss to falloff. As to why I would drop the damage bonus instead of the rof bonus for the falloff bonus it is because it would differentiate from the Mael which can still be configured for fleet. This sould make the Mael/Tempest difference like the Apoc/Abaddon difference, damage + tank bonuses -v- racial range bonus + racial deficiency compensation bonus (cap use, rof).



The tempest is not the only problem of the minmatar. lol. ALL projectile based shisp are broken, some more than others, but ALL of them need SOME improvement. The easiest way to fix it is to fix projectiles as a whole, which ccp balance team finally conceeded it seems.


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