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Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2009.09.24 11:09:00 - [151]
 

I have an odd idea that would be an interesting bonus to projectile weapons.

What if you got cap every time you fired a projectile weapon? I mean firing these massive cannons produce allot of energy, it's not unthinkable that the minmatar would use that energy and store it in the capacitor.

This would benefit minmatar active tanking ships, RR, running mwd longer... Could be a nice feature right?

Camios
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.09.24 11:09:00 - [152]
 

If I was a Minmatar engineer, I would make these changes on ammo:

1) 3 tiers on t1 ammo, - 50%, 0%, + 50% (short range, medium rage, long range).
Given the huge falloff, minmatar guns don't need to have all these different bonuses on optimal.
Instead, I would like more versatility in damage types in every tier.

2)may we have the same versatility on t2 ammo? Don't we deserve it? Minmatar means versatility, am I right?

3) Any module that gives optimal range bonus should give the same percent amount to falloff, and that would solve the problem with range in fleet for minmatar.


Rayokashi
Posted - 2009.09.24 11:11:00 - [153]
 

+Trajectory Analysis skill bonus

Originally by: Etho Demerzel
An increase of 12.5% for the level 5 skill is good but still insufficient. This skill should be 10% per level at the very least, considering its high rank and low effectiveness compared to Sharpshooting.


Actually I agree with you, 10% bonus per level would be good. Also this skill benefits other races too, so it is not direct boost to minmatar. Another interesting skill change would be changing or adding the bonus skill Controlled Burst give. It could modify like Abrazzar said projectile clip size to be bigger.

Nozh, large projectiles optimal is one thing that definetly needs to be increased.

Intigo
Amarr
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.09.24 12:08:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Nian Banks
I have an odd idea that would be an interesting bonus to projectile weapons.

What if you got cap every time you fired a projectile weapon? I mean firing these massive cannons produce allot of energy, it's not unthinkable that the minmatar would use that energy and store it in the capacitor.

This would benefit minmatar active tanking ships, RR, running mwd longer... Could be a nice feature right?


No way.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2009.09.24 12:10:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Ath Amon



Nope. You are wrong! Because tests must be made of the weapons on the ships that can use them! Weapons to not fight by themselves without ships. Megatrons are the standard gallente sniper so they are the oens to be used on tests.

If you change from maesltrom to tempest the test changes on 1 volley.


Also As i said.. fights on eve are not 100% fleet fights of 100 ships! GEt a small bunch of snipers. 6-7 and try to break a small group of RR ships... you know there IS small gang combat in eve, despite what some people try to claim. Again you are being super simplistic! Just because your target is a RR ship gang. you don need to be in A RR GANG! No place I ever talked about a RR tempest gang vs a RR megatron gang! But on the performance of a tempest sniper gang against RR gangs when comapred to same performance of a megatron RR gang!


And the situations EXIST I have been in quite a few of them! You can have a target being rapaired 1000 dps whiel your gang deals 700 dps and even so KILL it! But you cannot do it if you use low alpha strike weaponry.

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2009.09.24 12:32:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Intigo
Originally by: Nian Banks
I have an odd idea that would be an interesting bonus to projectile weapons.

What if you got cap every time you fired a projectile weapon?


No way.



I read your post and I found it lacking.


Amarr get a passive tanking bonus and fly like bricks, they can also perma run with correct fittings their lasers.
Minmatar need to keep moving, their tank is active and is cap intensive and yet proven to be inferior to all but small gang pvp where is at best is 2% superior to resist bonuses. Minmatar also have the worst cap and that is intentional (yet flawed) to balance the no cap use of projectiles.


So I stand and restate, a cap bonus from projectile weapons would be interesting and useful.

eXeGee
Pink Bunnies
Cartel.
Posted - 2009.09.24 12:34:00 - [157]
 

Changes in first post seems good.

In matter of ammo... whatever will you do, keep in mind we matars love having various damage types in our cannons. Smile

IMHO what needs most attention is balancing large projectiles in compare with other large guns.

Despite the fact matari battleships are the hard way in compare with other race's battleships i don't really see any huge issues with projectiles. But as i said, i like the ideas. Hope noone will break my lovely ACs Wink

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.24 12:50:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: Blazde on 24/09/2009 13:09:09
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Blazde
The reason they [fleet bs] have low dps is not directly due to the projectiles but battleship fitting


This is only partly correct. Even if all ships fit the same number of damage mods, Artillery never peaks above the damage curves of other weapon types, even without figuring in reload times, which were the major crippling factor in Artillery DPS. Compound that with the fact that it's harder to make projectiles shoot far, and you end up with even more underwhelming results.

But this is a characteristic of projectiles: they have low dps, but they don't need cap and thus Minmatar get double-dps bonused ships, while Amarr get cap-use bonuses, and Gallente tend to get other stuff to compensate like tracking. If you compare a 1400mm Tempest with 425mm Megathron, maxed skills t2 ammo same number of damage mods, the Tempest has a touch better dps out to it's optimal and regains an edge eventually in fall-off (or when the megathron runs out of cap). This despite having 6 turrets instead of 7. The issue is the rest of the fit, and the fact that optimal range cranks up much better (and is more useful) than fall-off.

Originally by: Seriously Bored
I think it sort of defeats the purpose of the Maelstrom as a tier 3 ship. It's supposed to tank like all the others, and does it quite well outside of a fleet.

Yea agreed, I like the tier3 bships having a tank theme. Maybe give it shield resists like the Rokh, but that's kinda boring. I can't see anything that could be done to the Tempest to make it more fleet like, even with an extra turret hardpoint it couldn't fit it without sacraficing something to increase powergrid.

I know this is about ammo balancing, but I think the main reason people complain about arties is because the battleships suck in long range fits. Boosting t1 ammo differences is great for ac, but relatively moot for arties since they're more often than not firing Tremor and I really can't see increasing alpha-strike fixing the problem.


Regarding Tracking Computers, Minmatar got hit harder by the scripting change than other races which tend to use Tracking Enhancers more, since for the same range bonus on TC, TE also gets tracking (albeit TC gets flexibility). If you added a falloff bonus to the TC that was on the same script as optimal rather than a 3rd dedicated falloff script it would boost Minmatar not only because they have more falloff but because their armour tanking ships are heavy users of TC. Just need to be careful it doesn't boost autocannons too much since their falloff characteristics are already godly.

Originally by: Camios
2)may we have the same versatility on t2 ammo? Don't we deserve it? Minmatar means versatility, am I right?

Would be very interesting to add a 3rd t2 ammo type to Projectiles only. Arty version could be something like +60% range but more damage than Tremor, while the ac version could be Hail with different damage types (though Hail could use a slight boost too).

One of the things that makes me a little uncomfortable about all the balancing that's gone into EVE over the past few years, including the addition of t2 ammo, is the way it's smoothed out the 'flavah'. There's meant to be differences between the races, and between the weapon types. Adding some flavah to t2 ammo = good idea.

Roemy Schneider
Vanishing Point.
Posted - 2009.09.24 13:13:00 - [159]
 

tracking comp boost is mostly a boost for large autos - you won't see a comp on a vaga (and i'm sure some gallente will be quite happy)
just wondering if you thought of tracking links aswell...? kinda weird to have minmatar and gallente logistics mostly boosting amarr -.- but hey... we've talked about this back when you introduced the falloff disruption Rolling Eyes

correcting those ammo anomalies will boost raw damage by ~9% mhmm if that's a "good performance boost" to you, i would've liked to see you partying when they came up with faction ammo for lolly points. probably something to tell my grand children...

falloff will always be falloff and i'd be ok with the damage reduction on top of of the tracking calcs (yes that's an addition right there) if those formed a solid basis or if there was a high amount of dps to reduce. neither is the case and i don't see any changes to that.

ahyes alpha strike... great on paper and useful to have in the daily lag battles - again; if the tracking would support that. as boring as this argument may get, it's just true....

we already had one damage for rof swap with the hp buff - crappy dps is still crappy dps. and what good is alpha damage if projectiles release their tremor-explo/kin damage against shields and then maybe get a second shot off into structure.

but yeah... at least there'll be a dps increase of ~5% with fewer reloads \o/ .... :crickets:

Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.09.24 13:21:00 - [160]
 

Speaking about tracking computers...may it also be second type of tracking enchancers? Low slot, fallof+tracking in same proportion as with tc. Would be nice for shield tanking minnies

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.09.24 13:21:00 - [161]
 

You've really bloody done it now guys... honestly.

All was lovely and quiet on our corporation's internal forums... now there's a damn riot. Hundreds of Minmatar pilots, all screaming "Khumaaaaaaaaaaaaaak!" and "BROADSIDDDEEEE!", and posting images of the following nature :

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.09.24 13:26:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Verone
You've really bloody done it now guys... honestly.

All was lovely and quiet on our corporation's internal forums... now there's a damn riot. Hundreds of Minmatar pilots, all screaming "Khumaaaaaaaaaaaaaak!" and "BROADSIDDDEEEE!", and posting images of the following nature :

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.




lol, i think ppl on these ships are completely deaf

Ath Amon
Posted - 2009.09.24 13:39:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: Ath Amon



Nope. You are wrong! Because tests must be made of the weapons on the ships that can use them! Weapons to not fight by themselves without ships. Megatrons are the standard gallente sniper so they are the oens to be used on tests.

If you change from maesltrom to tempest the test changes on 1 volley.


Also As i said.. fights on eve are not 100% fleet fights of 100 ships! GEt a small bunch of snipers. 6-7 and try to break a small group of RR ships... you know there IS small gang combat in eve, despite what some people try to claim. Again you are being super simplistic! Just because your target is a RR ship gang. you don need to be in A RR GANG! No place I ever talked about a RR tempest gang vs a RR megatron gang! But on the performance of a tempest sniper gang against RR gangs when comapred to same performance of a megatron RR gang!


And the situations EXIST I have been in quite a few of them! You can have a target being rapaired 1000 dps whiel your gang deals 700 dps and even so KILL it! But you cannot do it if you use low alpha strike weaponry.


imo is quite a mistake to compare ships, maybe with different fittings to get the statistic of weapons... you can balance a weapon for that particular ship with that particular config, but how about other ones? or when new ones are released?

if you focus the weapon balance on ship+weapon you are going to achieve a kinda weak balance more difficult to keep in place as is way more complex and there is always the risk to nerf/buff an area when the real problem lies elsewhere.

a balance of weapons instead is way more functional and easy to keep and achieve, note that i'm not saying that all the weapons should have the same stats ofc, but kinda comparable in effectiveness and with their own "niche"


about the hype and mael i think will be the most correct comparsion as they share same philosophy, true that the mega is still rpeferedd for various reasons, but also true that the mael did not replace the pest for similar reaons


about your example, yep as an harass small gang it makes sense and can work ok, but still consider the bad tracking and range, if your guns miss all your alpha is useless... to be honest probably for this kind of work i'll go for a laserboat as it pack waaay more dps, good alpha and better tracking if not range

Seriously Bored
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.24 14:12:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Nian Banks

I read your post and I found it lacking.


Amarr get a passive tanking bonus and fly like bricks, they can also perma run with correct fittings their lasers.
Minmatar need to keep moving, their tank is active and is cap intensive and yet proven to be inferior to all but small gang pvp where is at best is 2% superior to resist bonuses. Minmatar also have the worst cap and that is intentional (yet flawed) to balance the no cap use of projectiles.


So I stand and restate, a cap bonus from projectile weapons would be interesting and useful.


Let us use the first law of thermodynamics to defeat your argument then. Rolling Eyes

You can't get more energy out of a system than you put into it. Think of hybrid cars. They reclaim energy from their braking systems, but that energy was first created with gasoline. Your suggestion would be like driving a 100 miles in a Prius and ending up with more gas than you started.

If you would like, you could RP the reason that projectiles currently use no cap from your suggestion. They use cap to fire, but reclaim it immediately from the recoil. Kinda silly, as it assumes that they reclaim 100% of the energy, but if that's how you want to do it...

Using no cap is great enough. And they're thinking of adding tracking bonuses to the ammo, so just sit tight and watch what they come up with. Wink

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.24 14:21:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Blazde

because their low range prevents them firing on some of the primaries.


I fixed your quote blazde, not that what you were saying was necessarily wrong. But a fleet tempest has 152km optimal and 42km falloff, which makes it unable to fire on targets a rokh or apoc can. In addition the "massive alfa" is lowered considerably by the fact that a target in the 180-190km bracket is in deep falloff and therefore the damage ends up being a lot lower.

Also as noted artillery fittings on minmatar BS are mostly horrible, at least for 1400mm's. If the base range on 1200's was usable it wouldn't be so bad, but this is not an option currently.

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.24 14:32:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Blazde on 24/09/2009 14:35:13
Aye true, though honestly I think the Rokh and Apoc are overpowered and need bringing down to +7.5%/+5% optimal bonus more than say Tempest needs boosting. It's more relevant to compare the Tempest to the Megathron, or the Maelstrom to the Abaddon. Making Matari battleships as good as Apoc/Rokh would leave Gallente in the dust.

Jim Linger
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.09.24 14:35:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Jim Linger on 24/09/2009 14:39:03
Thx ccp but i've taken the last 2 years of uselessness to train amarr bs 5


Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Nian Banks

I read your post and I found it lacking.


Amarr get a passive tanking bonus and fly like bricks, they can also perma run with correct fittings their lasers.
Minmatar need to keep moving, their tank is active and is cap intensive and yet proven to be inferior to all but small gang pvp where is at best is 2% superior to resist bonuses. Minmatar also have the worst cap and that is intentional (yet flawed) to balance the no cap use of projectiles.


So I stand and restate, a cap bonus from projectile weapons would be interesting and useful.


Let us use the first law of thermodynamics to defeat your argument then. Rolling Eyes

You can't get more energy out of a system than you put into it. Think of hybrid cars. They reclaim energy from their braking systems, but that energy was first created with gasoline. Your suggestion would be like driving a 100 miles in a Prius and ending up with more gas than you started.

If you would like, you could RP the reason that projectiles currently use no cap from your suggestion. They use cap to fire, but reclaim it immediately from the recoil. Kinda silly, as it assumes that they reclaim 100% of the energy, but if that's how you want to do it...

Using no cap is great enough. And they're thinking of adding tracking bonuses to the ammo, so just sit tight and watch what they come up with. Wink


Projectiles use fuel inside the bullet (er.. wrong terminology but you know what i mean) for propultion.

+ energy to the system (not that I think the first idea is a good one.. just say'n)

Beltantis Torrence
Wolfsbrigade
ShadowWolves.net
Posted - 2009.09.24 14:36:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Beltantis Torrence on 24/09/2009 14:41:46
While you are at it increase the DPS and tracking of blasters. Shortest range guns, hardest to keep people in range of, needs more of an incentive to fit.

Edited to add: Another option is to buff the DPS and then just change the ships - like Thorax's useless MWD cap bonus should get changed to a tracking bonus. That right there would fix the Deimos/Thorax. And FFS fix tier one battlecruisers to be in line with tier two. There's what, an hour difference between the skills? Moa and Ferox should get an ROF bonus instead of shield resists. More balance = more useful ships = better fights.

Gavin Darklighter
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.09.24 14:39:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Seriously Bored


Let us use the first law of thermodynamics to defeat your argument then. Rolling Eyes

You can't get more energy out of a system than you put into it. Think of hybrid cars. They reclaim energy from their braking systems, but that energy was first created with gasoline. Your suggestion would be like driving a 100 miles in a Prius and ending up with more gas than you started.



Technicaly, the energy used to fire a projectile weapon comes from the propellent in the shell casing. Real-world guns and auto-cannons use the energy of the propellent to cycle the weapon and load another round. There is no reason you couldn't make a gun that generated electrical power as it was fired, it just wouldn't be of much use.

Still, I think making projectiles give cap when they are fired is a bad idea.

Kalia Masaer
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Posted - 2009.09.24 14:55:00 - [170]
 

Why is conflag the only short range T2 ammo that does not get a -50% penalty to optimal as it currently stands it has double the range of both hybrids and projectiles.

I think that is a problem I don't mind a range difference but double?

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.24 14:56:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
There is no reason you couldn't make a gun that generated electrical power as it was fired, it just wouldn't be of much use.

Patent title: Linear Generator and System to Capture Energy from Irregular Linear Movement

I don't think this is a very constructive line of thought, but in EVE most things can be justified loosely RP wise. Projectiles generating cap is interesting (flavah wise) but it's not at all useful in many cases (long range static tanks) and potentially overpowered in those cases where it could be useful (close range active tanks) which need less boosting and it'd be a tank boost rather than a weapon boost.

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.24 14:58:00 - [172]
 

Edited by: Roland Thorne on 24/09/2009 15:02:41
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter
Originally by: Seriously Bored


Let us use the first law of thermodynamics to defeat your argument then. Rolling Eyes

You can't get more energy out of a system than you put into it. Think of hybrid cars. They reclaim energy from their braking systems, but that energy was first created with gasoline. Your suggestion would be like driving a 100 miles in a Prius and ending up with more gas than you started.



Technicaly, the energy used to fire a projectile weapon comes from the propellent in the shell casing. Real-world guns and auto-cannons use the energy of the propellent to cycle the weapon and load another round. There is no reason you couldn't make a gun that generated electrical power as it was fired, it just wouldn't be of much use.

Still, I think making projectiles give cap when they are fired is a bad idea.


Yes, a very bad idea. Its worse enough having to read alts of galentte and amarr write about stupid ideas like this, or complain that projectiles are "double-buffed". I am specced completely minmatar and I throw up a little bit into my mouth every time this happens! Yes projectiles are capless (yada yada), but my BS are still almost completely useless in pvp for dealing damage, and I smell a fix so don't all you greedy alts get in my medieval way of getting it!!!

LOL

Edit: And no Seriously Bored, I'm talking about the guy that first brought this up.

xOmGx
Gallente
A-Priori
Red Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.24 15:21:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 15:25:31
Edited by: xOmGx on 24/09/2009 15:23:04
Minmatar are good now as is.

Why you should NOT change anything in Minmatar weapons systems:

Hurricane vs. Harbinger (no damage modes, EFT info, All LvL 5 skills)

Hurricane
6 Turrets * 1.25 Damage Bonus * 1.33 ROF Bonus = 9.975 Eff turrets*
*2 Missile launchers

Harbinger
7 Turrets * 1.25 Damage Bonus = 8.75 Effective turrets

Hurricane 6*425mm (Hail) + 2 HAM (Rage ammo) = 459 DPS (379 turrets)
Harbinger 7*Heavy Pulse (Conflagration) = 369 DPS

Tempest vs. Armageddon

Tempest
6 Turrets * 1.25 Damage Bonus * 1.33 ROF Bonus = 9.975 Effective turrets*
*2 Missile launchers

Armageddon
7 Turrent * 1.33 ROF Bonus = 9.31 Effective turrets

Tempest 6*800mm AC(Hail) + 2*Siage Launcher(Rage Torp) = 665 DPS (505 Turrets)
Armageddon 7*Megapulses(Conflagration) = 525 DPS

So minmatar are overpovered now and if they get any more damage buff... EvE will become EvE - Minmatar edition :((

Taking in fact that Tempest fleet issue and Machariel will recive 1 extra turret slot i DEMAND 7.5% ROF bonus on Imperial Armageddon!!!

New Tempest fleet
7 Turrets * 1.25 Damage Bonus * 1.33 ROF Bonus = 11.6375 Effective turrets

Armageddon 7.5% ROF
7 Turrets * 1.6 ROF Bonus = 11.2 Effective turrets

With 7.5% ROF Imperial Navy Armaeddon will be a fair counterpart to Tempest Fleet.
_____________________________

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2009.09.24 15:31:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: xOmGx

Tempest 6*800mm AC(Hail) + 2*Siage Launcher(Rage Torp) = 665 DPS (505 Turrets)
Armageddon 7*Megapulses(Conflagration) = 525 DPS



Now fit 3 gyros on the pest and 3 heatsinks one the Arma. Notice how one can still fit a tank and the other cannot... What about comparing complete fits?

If you did so you may discover the a Maelstron with megapulse is better than one with 800mm AC, which is a definite proof of projectiles issue...

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.24 15:33:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: xOmGx
...


You forgot capless. Laughing

Please keep trolling out of legitimate discussion threads... you're just going to bait a bunch of people into arguing with the numbers you pick and choose. Those are not legitimate comparisons by any stretch of the imagination.

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.24 15:53:00 - [176]
 

Edited by: Blazde on 24/09/2009 16:03:42
Originally by: Lubomir Penev
If you did so you may discover the a Maelstron with megapulse is better than one with 800mm AC, which is a definite proof of projectiles issue...

Megapulse Maelstrom has less dps over (almost) all it's range profile, less tracking, and is cap unstable while using more CPU and PG, what are you referring to?

[Damnit this thread is suddenly making me feel like such a nerd. The Vulcans are definetely better than the Romulans because of non-linear hyperdrive recoil energy capture and sequestration!]

Anddeh McNab
Cadre Assault Force
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:10:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: "CCP Nozh"
Oh, and also Tracking Computers. We're looking at some falloff love.


While Tracking Enhancers receive love too?

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:11:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Blazde
Edited by: Blazde on 24/09/2009 16:03:42
Originally by: Lubomir Penev
If you did so you may discover the a Maelstron with megapulse is better than one with 800mm AC, which is a definite proof of projectiles issue...

Megapulse Maelstrom has less dps over (almost) all it's range profile, less tracking, and is cap unstable while using more CPU and PG, what are you referring to?

[Damnit this thread is suddenly making me feel like such a nerd. The Vulcans are definetely better than the Romulans because of non-linear hyperdrive recoil energy capture and sequestration!]


Don't look back, you know you are sold :)

Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:14:00 - [179]
 

You know, active tanking is the most cap intensive tank and yet it's a ehp tank and rr tank world so what's wrong with boosting the minmatar tank ships that need love?

Besides all other races say our capless weapons are op, let's give them something to complain about :)

Uncle Smokey
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:15:00 - [180]
 

I miss the sweat every time I saw a tempest in the horizon from the deck of my small ship. YES for alpha. And I did not cry when i got one volley'd. (but I did when I found out my training for that fearsome ship was too late.)


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