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Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.09.23 06:42:00 - [1]
 

Guys I have a BC lvl 4 cald drake toon and am wondering how exactly the skill shield resists stack.

Lets say I want to see the Em resist and Thermal which are base 0%/20%

Im at BC lvl 4 and I get a 5% shield resist with a 50% active hardener on both em and thermal active.
Ok so is this:

0%+5%+5%+5%+%5%+50%

Or 50%+5%+5%+5%+5%

Im trying to figure out if the skills go first then modules also does the 5% skillx lvl 4 get grouped like 20% or 5x5x5x5?

If it was 20% it would be bigger right since it would be a 20% of a lower resist therefore a bigger chunk. Also is there a stacking bonus?

SO please guys what are the rules with this if anyone knows, also lets discuss missle dmg bonuses:

What Dmg bonus gets added first ROF, Dmg sig radius/velocity ? Are any of these mods/skills stacked?

Sorry if post seems scattered but its a little confusing and I wanna know what to level up first and what might be nerfed.

THX for the patience guys

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.09.23 07:47:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 23/09/2009 07:51:03


For resists, think of it as "percentage of REMAINING damage you resist".

So if you have a 40% base resist (say, shield kinetic resist), a 20% ship bonus resist (say, L4 battlecruisers while flying a Caldari battlecruiser) and a 50% resist from a single module (a T1 ballistic deflection field - if you use more modules it gets more complicated) it means you first only take 60% damage because of the base resist, then you only take 80% of the remaining damage due to the ship bonus, then you only take 50% of the remaining damage because of the module. 0.6*0.8*0.5 = 0.24 ; in other words, you take overall just 24% of the damage on that damage type, so your OVERALL resistance to damage on that particular damage type is 76%.
To recap : 40% base then 20% ship then 50% module -> 76% resist, or *0.24 damage taken, or 1/0.24 -> *4.1666 damage tanked compared to 0% resist.

If you have several resist modules together (damage control resists are an exception, those you apply always at no penalty), you "sort" them from largest bonus granted to smallest bonus granted (the sorting is done individually on each resist), the first one (the strongest) gives full effect, the second one (second best one, that is) only gives about 87% of its effect, the third one only about 57%, the fourth one roughly 25%, fifth one barely around 10% and the rest negligible.

Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.09.23 18:57:00 - [3]
 

Ok thx akita
So basically there is no stacking penalty on skills+1 module

And with ship bonus even though it is 5% per level I count as all my levels at once?
It is better to have 20% than 4x5%`s since each 5% would do a little less.

So does skills always go before modules?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.09.24 00:55:00 - [4]
 



Since everything is multiplicative (2*3*4 = 4*3*2 = 3*4*2, no ? Razz), it doesn't matter what "goes first" Laughing

Base values, skill-derived bonuses (yes, a bonus that says "5% per level" will grant a single 20% bonus if trained to L4), ship-bound bonuses (be it a fixed role/class bonus or variable one from skills depending on skill level), implant-granted bonuses (they usually come in 1%, 3% and 5% varieties, with a few rare implants granting 7%) and bonuses from "can only have one active at a time" modules (damage control, afterburner, MWD) go together without any penalties whatsoever.
Only the things you can add in multiple numbers (modules or rigs) get "sorted" and stack-nerf coefficients applied to their effectiveness... and even here, only on certain attributes - for instance, shield/capacitor recharge time and amounts modifiers are never affected by stack-nerf coefficients at all (the modules which modify stack-nerfable attributes usually have a mention in their description that "using multiple items will be penalized").

But after that, they get multiplied with everything else so again it doesn't matter anymore which you calculate first (as long as you have the coefficients right, where they apply at all).

Kail Storm
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.09.25 20:59:00 - [5]
 

Akita I thought it did matter if it was 20% or 5%x4 since this.

Lets say 0% em
5% of that leaves now 95% possible resist
now so 5% of 95=4.7% next time etc etc....See I thought it would be less everytime but with 20% base would take it to 20% resist right off. See so to me it mattered its like how 1st 50% module takes off 50% resist and 2nd takes off 25%.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2009.09.25 21:54:00 - [6]
 

Let me try to explain the stacking penalty.

Take for example 4 modules of 5% vs. 1 module of 20%.

You would expect the combined bonus to be:

bonus = (1 + 0.05) * (1 + 0.05) * (1 + 0.05) * (1 + 0.05) = 1.21

But there is a stacking penalty too so it is more like

bonus = penalty(1, 0.05) * penalty(2, 0.05) * penalty(3, 0.05) * penalty(4, 0.05)

If I recall, the stacking penalty formula is rather complex, but lets pretend its a power of 2 for explanation purposes:

bonus = (1 + 0.05 / 2^0) * (1 + 0.05 / 2^1) * (1 + 0.05 / 2^2) * (1 + 0.05 / 2^3) = 1.09

The more modules you add, the less effect they have.

In comparison, a single 20% module would be the full bonus:

bonus = (1 + 0.20 / 2^0) = 1.20

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2009.09.27 17:27:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Kail Storm
Akita I thought it did matter if it was 20% or 5%x4 since[...]

Originally by: Akita T
yes, a bonus that says "5% per level" will grant a single 20% bonus if trained to L4

^ was already covered

Ashireka
Minmatar
Robot Pirate Ninja Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.28 19:26:00 - [8]
 

The "stacking" penalties apply based on source, but the sources are computed individually. So, as said before, if your skill is +5% resist per level, and you're level 4, you get a +20% resist from your skill. However, this isn't added to your existing resists.

If your ship has a 20% resist already, the bonus conferred by your skill isn't 20% (ie. you don't get a 40% resist as a result). You get a bonus equal to 20% of the difference between your current resist and 100%. So, you get 20 + ((100 - 20) * 0.2) = 36% resulting resist. Say you equip a 10% resist module in addition, this is then applied: 36 + ((100 - 36) * 0.1) = 42%.

The order is unimportant. Reversing the skill and mod computation:

20 + ((100 - 20) * 0.1) = 28%. 28 + ((100 - 28) * 0.2) = 42%.

This is the basis of the "stacking penalty". The computation means that each additional bonus does not confer value in an additive way. Ie. with a 20% skill bonus and 10% mod bonus, and a base of 20%, you don't end up with a 20+10+20 = 50% resist, you actually end up with a 42% resist (as shown above). This model prevents truly degenerate resists, where someone could get to 100% resist and be completely invulnerable; so long as no resist bonus ever confers, itself, a 100% resist bonus, the combination of all resists will never reach 100%.

-Ash





 

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