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Tlar Sanqua
Gallente
Gallente Defence Initiative
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:00:00 - [181]
 

I think this is a great move and judging by the number of complaints vs the number of put the tax up responses, I think that Soundwave did the right thing and got the level right.

Kaya Divine
Gallente
Kittens Factory
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:07:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Just to make it clear, I designed this change. If you're going to blame anyone, put it on me Cool

Shame on you!

Imagine that I push you around...there will be one point where you will be sick of it and start punching me.
But If I give you a cookie, and you are cookie lover you will be more then happy to move.

I know that it will be problematic for you to play high card and admit that you made mistake, and that this issue need more sophisticated solution and not: We will continue to increase taxes till moment when this idea give some effect.

If I and many others in NPC corps are perfectly happy with our way of playing EvE why are you punishing us because of our play style?

When you start nudging players to play in way you wish them to...you made big mistake.


But I will in few months, post in this or some other similar topic, with: I told you so! attitude...because I know that this is mistake, and I believe that you are starting to feel about this same way as I.


xero gravity
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:08:00 - [183]
 

The blog is a lie.
The sandbox is gone.
RIP Eve 2003-2009, it was a good run...

Welcome to Eve-2
let's see how it turns out

Intangible Mirage
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:08:00 - [184]
 

I can't wait for the database to crash because of all the 1 man player corps made after this patch.

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:11:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Kaya Divine

Imagine that I push you around...there will be one point where you will be sick of it and start punching me.


Nah, CCP is too awesome to be punched back, am I right?

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:12:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Ariane VoxDei
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Just to make it clear, I designed this change. If you're going to blame anyone, put it on me
Fair enough soundwave.
Don't bother thinking that this will get the idea of the hook though. Only difference is that now you will take the core beating.
Prism still has to bear the weight of what he posted (particularly the RMT slander). That was miles below acceptable standard.


I'm not at all trying to get off the hook, rather the opposite. If you're angry, please direct it at me. This was my change, and when I wrote it I was fully aware that it would upset some people.

No one is shutting down NPC corporations or forcing you to do anything drastic. This change brings a fair balance to the NPC corporations versus the player corporations, and it's long overdue.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:13:00 - [187]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 23/09/2009 12:18:18
Originally by: Tlar Sanqua
I think this is a great move and judging by the number of complaints vs the number of put the tax up responses, I think that Soundwave did the right thing and got the level right.

You should notice that the arguments of the two sides are somewhat opposite of what you think they are....

The pro-tax people thinks it'll either stick it to the high-sec crowd or get them more targets...

The con-tax people are explaining why the change will not work...

Sure, CCP will get a lot of people into what by game terms IS player corp. It'll be 1-man corp for the large majority of players, thus avoiding the tax and depriving them of the rich social interaction that goes on in the NPC corp as a side effect.

The main problem is that most player corp suck. They don't have enough benefits to balance their crapiness, but instead of fixing the problem, CCP just decides to drag NPC corp down so they get closer in crapiness to player corp.

It is a lazy mans 'solution' (which isn't really anything that should be called a 'solution'), which is easily circumvented (with detrimental effects on social interaction).

It is pretty clear that CCP Soundwave hasn't actually sat down and identified the problem and then found the right solution. Instead he's just thought of a 'solution' he likes, and is trying (but failing) to somehow make the game realities fit with that....
The real problem is of.c. much harder to fix as it'll require a redesign of corp mechanics, wardec mechanics, highsec earnings etc. It'll thus require actual effort to fix, not to mention some pretty decent analysis to identify the exact measures to take and their possible effects....
But, as one CCP guy has already said, that'd require him to actually work, so was probably dismissed on that count. Rolling Eyes

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:18:00 - [188]
 

Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 23/09/2009 12:19:25
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

No one is shutting down NPC corporations or forcing you to do anything drastic. This change brings a fair balance to the NPC corporations versus the player corporations, and it's long overdue.


1) Player corp tax does not mean the ISK are lost.
They are used to fund corp operations. It is money you put aside for repairs and improvements of your house.

2) NPC corp tax is ISK that you will never see again. It is a sink.

What are you actualy balancing out here?

something somethingdark
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:21:00 - [189]
 

Edited by: something somethingdark on 23/09/2009 12:21:31
id have a comparatively easy "true" solution
but it involves a bit more than 5 minutes of discussions arround the water cooler folowed by 10 seconds of work folowed by 15 minutes of writing a devblog folowed by another 5 minutes of proof reading folowed by 5 minutes of PR departement checks and then the 2 minutes it takes to dump the devblog online


The general design would revolve arround :

  • Noob corps only being for true noobs (takes a bit of back end programming)

  • Players default state being corpless (after time in noobcorp)

  • There being a true entry barrier for creating corps (member count and whatnots)

  • True benefits such as certain fee reductions (cue RP reason and crowd pleasing)

  • and benefits like manageable hangars (something people have been crying well since eve was in beta realy)



Id be very happy to write up a design document detailing the specifics if CCP is interested.... (yeah never gona happen lol)

Marquis Zenas
I.X Research
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:48:00 - [190]
 

So many tears and whines.

Originally by: CCP Prism X

For my part, I had wet dreams about making it 100%.. cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity and intending to sell it through RMT. Thankfully they don't let draconian little me design stuff. Laughing


Love this. About time something was done with the NPC imbalance. What I'd love to see is these organisation be prime grounds for militia press gangs. If you've been hanging about CAS, STI or another terrible corp to long you will be press ganged into the faction militia!


Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:48:00 - [191]
 

WCS got a new meaning....

Water Cooler SolutionExclamation

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.23 13:12:00 - [192]
 

Originally by: Marquis Zenas
So many tears and whines.

Originally by: CCP Prism X

For my part, I had wet dreams about making it 100%.. cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity and intending to sell it through RMT. Thankfully they don't let draconian little me design stuff. Laughing


Love this. About time something was done with the NPC imbalance. What I'd love to see is these organisation be prime grounds for militia press gangs. If you've been hanging about CAS, STI or another terrible corp to long you will be press ganged into the faction militia!




Funny how you can have love for ccp to base gamedesign decisions on what they like or donīt like and devs calling their paying customers RMT traders.

Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.09.23 13:17:00 - [193]
 

I support this tax. Players in NPC corps should have to pay for their safety. This is a harsh game and we should err on the side of danger, not safety. If this causes people to quit the game, so be it.

Anhur Shu
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2009.09.23 13:18:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
It is just staggering to read how the people in charge of this change completly ignore ~25 pages of valid arguments against it, not even mention them, not even -try- to counterargue against them and instead tell us about their "wet dreams" of raising the tax to 100% and that they donīt like us being in npc corps in their sandbox game and then even put us in a drawer with RMT Traders.
All Ccpīs response is full of arrogance and discrepect of us Npc Corp players.


At this point, I'm tending to agree with this.

Anhur Shu
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2009.09.23 13:33:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Adam Ridgway
No one is obliguing you, you go against the sandbpox by protecting yourself against a lot of forms of PLAYER INTERACTION (shocker, EVE is an MMOG). And you are pretty much useless to the game world, like a pester who only increases inflation and don't consume.



Wow, way to contradict yourself.

HELLO!!!!!!!! sandbox = play how YOU LIKE, not how someone ELSE likes!! get it through all your "OMGWTFPWN, I can't attack anyone I want in the game, go cry a friggin river about it, 11 year old, grade-school bully attitudes" that it's not just YOUR style of play that's involved.

Some people don't WANT to be in crappy player corps, where, if something goes wrong, all their hard work can be ripped off in 5 minutes by the scammer they USED to call CEO, Boss, whatever.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.09.23 13:44:00 - [196]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 23/09/2009 13:43:58
Originally by: Anhur Shu

Some people don't WANT to be in crappy player corps, where, if something goes wrong, all their hard work can be ripped off in 5 minutes by the scammer they USED to call CEO, Boss, whatever.

Uhoh, you just highlighted another case where NPC corps has an unfair advantage over player run corps.

To compensate for this we need a mechanic where the NPC CEO randomly selects a member and strip him of all assets and boot him out of corp. This will make people much more accustomed to the wonders of being a member of a player run corporation.

riverini
Gallente
Reliables Inc
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2009.09.23 13:52:00 - [197]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Ariane VoxDei
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Just to make it clear, I designed this change. If you're going to blame anyone, put it on me
Fair enough soundwave.
Don't bother thinking that this will get the idea of the hook though. Only difference is that now you will take the core beating.
Prism still has to bear the weight of what he posted (particularly the RMT slander). That was miles below acceptable standard.


I'm not at all trying to get off the hook, rather the opposite. If you're angry, please direct it at me. This was my change, and when I wrote it I was fully aware that it would upset some people.

No one is shutting down NPC corporations or forcing you to do anything drastic. This change brings a fair balance to the NPC corporations versus the player corporations, and it's long overdue.


If you are actually to be blamed for something, i would blame you for not raising the tax high enough to make being part of a non-npc corp something actually desirable, i mean most corps charge 10% - 15% tax, if i were you i would have it 75% taxes on NPC Corps for characters over 3 mil SP, BTW, Why wasn't this implemented earlier?

Anhur Shu
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2009.09.23 13:56:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 23/09/2009 13:43:58
Originally by: Anhur Shu

Some people don't WANT to be in crappy player corps, where, if something goes wrong, all their hard work can be ripped off in 5 minutes by the scammer they USED to call CEO, Boss, whatever.

Uhoh, you just highlighted another case where NPC corps has an unfair advantage over player run corps.

To compensate for this we need a mechanic where the NPC CEO randomly selects a member and strip him of all assets and boot him out of corp. This will make people much more accustomed to the wonders of being a member of a player run corporation.


lol....yeah

and just so we're clear on this, I am NOT against the tax. What I am against is the "play OUR way" reasons FOR the tax. Could've been handled a lot better, but I guess the quick fixes and the "really, we don't care about all those people that really are playing their own way" attitude is how it REALLY is here.

news flash - not ALL players in NPC corps are RMTers....way to assume and stereotype!!

Hun Jakuza
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2009.09.23 13:58:00 - [199]
 

Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 23/09/2009 14:08:49
Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 23/09/2009 14:02:35
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Ariane VoxDei
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Just to make it clear, I designed this change. If you're going to blame anyone, put it on me
Fair enough soundwave.
Don't bother thinking that this will get the idea of the hook though. Only difference is that now you will take the core beating.
Prism still has to bear the weight of what he posted (particularly the RMT slander). That was miles below acceptable standard.


I'm not at all trying to get off the hook, rather the opposite. If you're angry, please direct it at me. This was my change, and when I wrote it I was fully aware that it would upset some people.

No one is shutting down NPC corporations or forcing you to do anything drastic. This change brings a fair balance to the NPC corporations versus the player corporations, and it's long overdue.



Need more changes this idea.
The idea is good, but the rate is not good.

11% tax rate too low but for new players too high.
Why i say ? High sec agentrunner will be stand at NPC corp, and nothing will be happen.
They will be get from better lvl4 agent cca 3,6M instead from old value 4million.
Not too much vastage for no wardec rule. But if you change the taxes for players time proportionally, the old players must leave the corp, because their wastage will be too high.

I told 6 hours ago.

1-3 months players just pay 0% tax.
3-6 months players just pay 11% tax.
6-12 months players just pay 25% tax.
Over 12 months players just pay 50% tax.
(Over 24 months players just pay 75% tax.)

One year old characters lost their half agent prices 4m old values decreases to 2 M. Need minimum 2x times work longer than old.

And some thing need to change. Salvage materials give them more cash like NPC pirate ship bounty and agent price.
1 week and a LVL4 agentrunner in high sec can make over 300 million just from salvage and reprocess.
So, reprocess quote need change too. Old players must lose their salvage tax too in NPC corp.
Hauler and other agents too.
I guess one simple tax change not enough , must make it more other changes.

But i think the best idea, if the 6 months old character would be leave the NPC corps and the problem solved.
Like when you leave your school when you got you training for life. You must choiche where you go and where you get job,work or something else in a player corp.

Marquis Zenas
I.X Research
Posted - 2009.09.23 14:00:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq


Funny how you can have love for ccp to base gamedesign decisions on what they like or donīt like and devs calling their paying customers RMT traders.


Actually I can considering it's their game and their rules. NPC corps are currently being used in a way that CCP don't and never wanted them to be used. This is the start of redressing that.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.23 14:18:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Marquis Zenas
Originally by: Julian Lynq


Funny how you can have love for ccp to base gamedesign decisions on what they like or donīt like and devs calling their paying customers RMT traders.


Actually I can considering it's their game and their rules. NPC corps are currently being used in a way that CCP don't and never wanted them to be used. This is the start of redressing that.


Itīs their product of which i am a customer of since over 3 yearīs, paying for it every month. Now after 3 years they tell me they never wanted me as a customer anyways and accuse me of being involved in RMT trading. I know of no other company that communicates with thier customers like that.

Paddlefoot Aeon
SiN. Corp
Daisho Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.23 14:24:00 - [202]
 

Maybe because I'm Canadian, but I look at an 11% tax and go "meh".

Think of this 11% as a safety tax. You don't want to be wardeced? Fine.... your security costs you 11%.

Don't want to pay 11%, fine... GTFO and make/join a player corp with little/no tax.

When you join a player corp, you have buddies to come and help you out if you get in trouble, or to gang with if there is a war on. When you're in an NPC corp, you don't have that backup... but you pay 11% and get wardec immunity.

Seems like a system of user-fees. If you use the system, you pay. If you don't, you don't pay.

Why do people find this so unfair?

Orange Faeces
The Atomik Izlamiks
Posted - 2009.09.23 14:41:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon
Seems like a system of user-fees. If you use the system, you pay. If you don't, you don't pay.

Why do people find this so unfair?


They don't, Padz. Its all good. Except for Caldor, people get it.

oF

something somethingdark
Posted - 2009.09.23 14:49:00 - [204]
 

Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon
stuff
Why do people find this so unfair?


its not unfair,its pointless

start a 1 man corp your done
the 1 time fee is very low
got wardeced ? well that means you got a personal enemy because who the hell would wardec a 1 man corp ... srsly
but no problem start a new one or flee to a noobcorp and then return or start a new one

repeat at nausea

the only thing it does is thin the numbers in noob corp chats and put a higher strain on the eve database with all the utterly pointless 1 man corps being founded

and in 6 months time the need for speed initiative will pick up on this completly pointless waste of resources and kill it off again
its so much wasted time that could be spend on doing something truly worthwhile

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.23 14:52:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon
Why do people find this so unfair?

Most of the ones objecting to it doesn't find it unfair.....

We're saying that it'll not work in the way CCP intends!

Sure, a very few players might go to player corp slightly before they would have anyway... Most likely however, a much larger numbers will also go to player corp, but the wrong ones, that being their own little 1-man corp.

In that 1-man corp, they'll basically have no social interaction at all with the other players (which they DID have before)! This is a pretty strange thing to pressure people into doing in an MMO....

It is completely fair that CCP wants people in 'real' player corp! However, to achieve that end they need to find out WHY the players currently in NPC corp doesn't want to be in there, and address THOSE reasons. I can assure you that 'low taxes' are so far down the list it doesn't even register...

People being in NPC corp is the symptom of what is wrong, but you don't remove the problem by hiding the symptom!
In a few months time, CCP can look at their figures and claim that 25% of players have moved to player corp. That the majority of these have moved to 1-man corp and are now not interacting at all with other players will be glossed over....

That a CCP dev then barges in and calls NPC corp members RMT'ers doesn't exactly improve matters either....

bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.23 15:20:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Caldor Mansi
Edited by: Caldor Mansi on 23/09/2009 12:19:25
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

No one is shutting down NPC corporations or forcing you to do anything drastic. This change brings a fair balance to the NPC corporations versus the player corporations, and it's long overdue.


1) Player corp tax does not mean the ISK are lost.
They are used to fund corp operations. It is money you put aside for repairs and improvements of your house.

2) NPC corp tax is ISK that you will never see again. It is a sink.

What are you actualy balancing out here?


Wrong, the ISK will be used to pay the monthly Doughnut bill from CONCORD

Btw, awsum change, abit low but a 1st step.

Quatra Pip
Posted - 2009.09.23 15:30:00 - [207]
 

Edited by: Quatra Pip on 23/09/2009 15:32:58
Just as a matter of economics, there are ways of off-setting the unintended consequences of the NPC corp tax.

A monthly/weekly lump-sum tax on player corps would discourage one-man corps. If it was designed to come straight out of player wallets rather than the corp wallet at a rate of tax/roster count, it would encourage people (not just characters) to team up.

The people rather than characters are taxed because if you throw all three alts on an account into the corp, you pay three shares.

The tax could be at whatever rate matches the emphasis CCP wants to put on joining medium sized corps.

Note that it wouldn't really favor large corps. Tax/125 is roughly equal to tax/126 but tax/1 is twice tax/2.

If the mechanism was super-great, it would need-for-speed disband corps where the ceo's personal wallet couldn't cover his share of the corp tax. People would then get dumped into an NPC corp where they face marginal income rather than lump-sum taxation.


Edit to address an arguement: yes, of course this would just mean people would open up large "not in a corp" corporations where a share of the lump-sum tax would be trivial. The nice thing is that those corps could be wardeced.

Degara Farat
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.23 15:49:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Ariane VoxDei
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Just to make it clear, I designed this change. If you're going to blame anyone, put it on me
Fair enough soundwave.
Don't bother thinking that this will get the idea of the hook though. Only difference is that now you will take the core beating.
Prism still has to bear the weight of what he posted (particularly the RMT slander). That was miles below acceptable standard.


I'm not at all trying to get off the hook, rather the opposite. If you're angry, please direct it at me. This was my change, and when I wrote it I was fully aware that it would upset some people.

No one is shutting down NPC corporations or forcing you to do anything drastic. This change brings a fair balance to the NPC corporations versus the player corporations, and it's long overdue.

So NPC corps are going to be wardec'able too?
If your going to tax players in NPC corps try to at least get all of them, not just one profession. Traders and Miners are unaffected by this.

And Prism X is blamed by default for stupid ideas.

Hun Jakuza
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2009.09.23 16:11:00 - [209]
 

Originally by: something somethingdark
Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon
stuff
Why do people find this so unfair?


its not unfair,its pointless

start a 1 man corp your done
the 1 time fee is very low
got wardeced ? well that means you got a personal enemy because who the hell would wardec a 1 man corp ... srsly
but no problem start a new one or flee to a noobcorp and then return or start a new one

repeat at nausea

the only thing it does is thin the numbers in noob corp chats and put a higher strain on the eve database with all the utterly pointless 1 man corps being founded

and in 6 months time the need for speed initiative will pick up on this completly pointless waste of resources and kill it off again
its so much wasted time that could be spend on doing something truly worthwhile


Read the rules.
That's exploit. You cant always evade to 1 man corp or you will be banned.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.23 16:16:00 - [210]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 23/09/2009 16:16:51
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Read the rules.
That's exploit. You cant always evade to 1 man corp or you will be banned.

Please look at this then.... It is fully allowed Cool
Originally by: GM Nythanos
Hello,

For #1, Closing a corporation and opening a new one with the same members is allowed, and the people who declared war on your now closed corporation can declare a new war on your new corporation if they choose to do so.

For #2, Using alt corps to increase the cost of wars against your corporation or alliance is prohibited.

To help clarify this, there are restrictions with regards to joining and leaving corporation, such as mentioned here:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2317&tid=1

This is an official GM ruling posted on EO less than 3 months ago.....

Have a nice day Very Happy


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