open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked New Dev Blog: I Bring Gifts! (By Gifts I Mean Taxes, Sorry)
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 ... : last (18)

Author Topic

Saurish
Posted - 2009.09.23 06:11:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Saurish on 23/09/2009 06:16:03



CCP Soundwave:

I see you are being smashed here. Atleast add "yes or no" to wardec system, so pvers will have a choise.

This can be code in like minutes of your time.

Soundwave: Check this topic and think about it Link

If you guys wont do something (developers).... youl see after the expansion 100k+ 1man corp.

Jacob Mei
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.23 06:22:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Dakius
CCP Soundwave really has no idea what he is doing, and this proposed tax increase is just proof of this... This will not get players to join empire player corporations as this is simply dodging the real problem.

The real problem is the mechanics behind corporations.

1. Most empire corporations, suffice to say, suck....badly. Bad players, no member benefits, and high taxes (around 10%). The NPC corporations have helped combat these by providing a corporation with no leaders and no tax, thus the awful corporations cannot compete and fail as capitalism dictates.

2. War declarations are about as unrealistic and broken as energy nuetralizers. They were implimented so that player corporations that have matured and grown can compete not just economically but militarily as well, a sort of rich man's duel. Nowadays this age old mechanic has been abused like candy. A single man, in a single corp, in a gank megathron, can pay his 2 mil isk and war dec anything as long as it aint NPC

3. Your own corporation members can shoot you... and get away with it.

These are the three top reasons for the popularity of NPC corporations and fixing them is the only way to bring real change. CCP Soundwave is simply trying to sidestep the real problems with a quick and easy number change in the corporation window.



Had to sum this up so I could actually post. You listed the three best reasons why player corps are generally avoided as well as the three hardest issues to be fixed. Now when you combine this list with the very comments by these devs, that this “tax” was easy to code it tells you a lot about their work ethic.

Chip Flux
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.23 06:34:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: Chip Flux on 23/09/2009 06:59:26
Shockwave, you attack me.
You do not understand Eve, yet have the power to change it.
I am never going to leave CAS, NEVER, it is what I have payed your company for for years, not anything else but to be in CAS and develop my character.
Without your intervention to discriminate against me, I would have been a PLAYER eventually.
You are just one of the ignorant bullys that pick on anyone that plays differently to how you do, or might.
My chat is special as are my friends in CAS, and here we have the real issue...
You are taking sides with those who are jealous of my game
Because I can log into a better game than most people in Eve, you will kill me so that noone feels jealous

If anyone wants to know if CCP think the new sov expansion is going to be any good, then all they need do to judge CCP`S confidence in it is read this thread.
If the expansion is going to make life better for eve players, then why would you need to influence people to do things you want
Everyone would flock to 0.0

I must add that I was excited about the update as it threatened to make eve better for all.
Now i see that it is not going to do that.
Thank you Shockwave for your confidence in the new expansion and the hard work that I have no doubt your collegues have put into it.

Ambo
I've Got Nothing
Posted - 2009.09.23 07:05:00 - [154]
 

I think this is an excellent change.

Akasun
Posted - 2009.09.23 07:05:00 - [155]
 

Edited by: Akasun on 23/09/2009 07:06:59
While I have no objection to a tax that has actual justification behind it, this is not that. For example, saying that wardec protection requires paying off Concord would have sufficed. Instead, we get the following:

Quote:
We would prefer that players join player corporations, or other entities that shape the world of EVE at a higher degree than the NPC corporations do, due to their impersonal and somewhat isolated role.
Quote:
11% is our starting estimate. If it turns out that this number is too low and the changes do not have the impact we hope, it can always be adjusted to a higher level. Right now though, we are hoping 11% will provide the balance we are looking for.


The above indicates a supreme lack of faith by CCP in their own sandbox and a misunderstanding of what NPC corps provide. People stay in NPC corps for a variety of reasons. One of those happens to be the large amount of social interaction that occurs from having a randomly selected group of people that have no direct obligation to each other but just happen to enjoy chatting. In my experience in FNA, I've seen a wide gamut of human experience and perspectives, only some of which coincides with my own perspectives.

We have missioners, miners, salvage snipers, pirates, explorers, trolls, scammers, wardec hiders, teachers, and more. We have the compassionate and the incorrigible. From this happenstance association, FNA has evolved a unique identity based upon the conversations of its participants. In all the randomness, something happened: emergence. Apparently, that's not what CCP and a number of players want. I guess the NPC corps have become emblematic of a dangerous idea: that you can form a community based upon no actual obligations or power structure that, while possibly amused by the antics of the sundry corps and alliances, feels no compunction whatsoever to participate in their struggles.

I agree with a previous post that the NPC corps should provide a baseline against which the player corps can be compared. If you can't provide the incentives to make player corps attractive for more people, then trying to push them there regardless won't work. Applying increasingly onerous disincentives as proposed by a number of posters signifies a profound failure of creativity and imagination. As for myself, I could care less about corp drama and intrigue. I like the freedom that comes from a mostly solo experience with the option to regularly converse with others if I so desire. I'm sure I'm not alone there.

Burn the land and boil the sea. You can't take the sky from me.

EveFairy0
Posted - 2009.09.23 07:14:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X

cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity


I'm still baffled about thinking how the changes prevent "farmers" from creating their own one-man corps (which will clutter the space soon enough). It'll be interesting to see who will be committed enough to wardec all those corps just to see them logoff/not play/change corp...

Also (not that you really really mean it), in the end you can't force people to socialize and join corporations made by other people. So whatever the plans are in the future, keep it in mind.

Other than that it's an welcome change but I'd hope it was a part of a bigger overhaul with some new and exciting changes to how corporations work. I'd still like to see that 'private enterprise' as my own 0-tax corp with my name and my wallet but wardecable.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.23 07:41:00 - [157]
 

It is just staggering to read how the people in charge of this change completly ignore ~25 pages of valid arguments against it, not even mention them, not even -try- to counterargue against them and instead tell us about their "wet dreams" of raising the tax to 100% and that they don´t like us being in npc corps in their sandbox game and then even put us in a drawer with RMT Traders.
All Ccp´s response is full of arrogance and discrepect of us Npc Corp players.

Hun Jakuza
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2009.09.23 07:42:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 23/09/2009 07:48:08
11% tax is too low, increase to minimum 25% for old players.
And other thing. Change the rules.

1-3 months players just pay 0% tax.
3-6 months players just pay 11% tax.
6-12 months players just pay 25% tax.
Over 12 months players just pay 50% tax.

This would be change the "i'm in a noobcorp always for no wardec".

Hoinus
Gallente
Duty Free Exchange
Posted - 2009.09.23 07:47:00 - [159]
 

Everyone should be able to quit the npc corp and be corpless.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.09.23 08:12:00 - [160]
 

Edited by: Future Mutant on 23/09/2009 08:13:29
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 23/09/2009 07:48:08
11% tax is too low, increase to minimum 25% for old players.
And other thing. Change the rules.

1-3 months players just pay 0% tax.
3-6 months players just pay 11% tax.
6-12 months players just pay 25% tax.
Over 12 months players just pay 50% tax.

This would be change the "i'm in a noobcorp always for no wardec".


Are you drunk, high, or just stupid? How do you think this will change anything?

Seriously the next person who likes the idea of discriminating against npc corps actually give a coherent reason.

Hun Jakuza
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2009.09.23 08:31:00 - [161]
 

Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 23/09/2009 08:32:30
Originally by: Future Mutant
Edited by: Future Mutant on 23/09/2009 08:13:29
Originally by: Hun Jakuza
Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 23/09/2009 07:48:08
11% tax is too low, increase to minimum 25% for old players.
And other thing. Change the rules.

1-3 months players just pay 0% tax.
3-6 months players just pay 11% tax.
6-12 months players just pay 25% tax.
Over 12 months players just pay 50% tax.

This would be change the "i'm in a noobcorp always for no wardec".


Are you drunk, high, or just stupid? How do you think this will change anything?

Seriously the next person who likes the idea of discriminating against npc corps actually give a coherent reason.


Ah i see you are a ISK farmer who crying.
1-2 year olds character need to lurk in game ? No.
Ok you dont want tax NPC corp taxes.
I have a better idea against lurkers like you. Over 3 months old players kick from NPC corp. Muahahahaha
Let's see you how cry me a river.

Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2009.09.23 08:35:00 - [162]
 

There are lots of issues with current NPC and player corps and this won’t fix any of them.

More real solutions and less PR whoring please CCP.

Fina Kelitan
Posted - 2009.09.23 08:40:00 - [163]
 

Edited by: Fina Kelitan on 23/09/2009 08:43:09
Originally by: Ashina Sito
Last bit. This will not get Ashina out of CAS. Nothing that CCP ever does will get Ashina out of CAS. What I get the most out of Eve is being able to pass what I know on to the younger pilots out there. Seeing them grow and develop. It keeps the game fresh and interesting. I can not get that with a player corp. CAS's new pilots are truly new and shiny. My NPC corp 0.0/PvP projects take up a lot of my time these days so others manage the newer pilots more then I do but, I still like the option of popping my head in CAS chat and stirring the bees nest. Cool


There should be some kind of official "newb tutelage" thing for people like you.

However, if you really like helping newbs you can just recruit them to join you in your player corp.

Yelu Olympias
Posted - 2009.09.23 08:43:00 - [164]
 



Awesome change. Taxes should be a bit higher though. We Caldari should pay more tax than Gallente because we are better. We should get healthcare and social security. I think 15% would be better.



Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.09.23 08:47:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 23/09/2009 08:48:38
It's a good change. It levels the playing fields a bit between NPC and player corps in taxation and still retains the NPC corps nature for the players currently enjoying them. Added cudos for exempting FW corps from the tax.

The only thing to complain about it is that it took this long to be implemented. Those "valid" arguments against this change are exaggerated at best and laughable at worst. The most vocal lot seem to be people who value their NPC corp "friends" less then a few percentage of lost missioning income and who think every other NPC corpie shares their views. Let them just suck it up or make tax evasion corps and be vulnerable to wardecs, either way they'll survive and the choice is still in their own hands.

Ashina Sito
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.23 08:55:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: Ashina Sito
1) This tax does not help in getting NPC corpies out into low/0.0 space. I have spent a lot of my Eve time teaching people how to live in 0.0 space, without the need of a Player corp. If I could go out at 7 weeks old and survive Anyone could. This tax will not only hit bounties in missions but the bounties for rats in belts and exploration sites in 0.0 space. My work at getting more people out into 0.0 and doing PvP will be undermined by this tax. It is already hard enough to get people motivated to make less ISk in 0.0. The removal of the attribute implant carry over after podding (Apocrpha 1.3) compounds the problem. Every action CCP is making is making it harder for me to get people involved in PvP.


Well, if it was changed so that Empire NPC tax doesn't count in 0.0, and the 0.0 Faction NPC tax only counts within that factions jurisdiction, would that allay your concerns? It would seem to make sense that the long arm of the tax man wouldn't be able to extend very far, without interfering with CCPs core aims with this tax.


My issues with the effect of the tax for low/0.0 sec stuff yes. Only issue is that CCP is going with an easy fix. There is little to no coding required for the new NPC tax. They would have to do new coding to handle tax in high sec and not in low/0.0 space.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.23 09:33:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

You are absolutely welcome to stay in the NPC corporation Very Happy


Don't seem so.

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

11% is our starting estimate. If it turns out that this number is too low and the changes do not have the impact we hope, it can always be adjusted to a higher level. Right now though, we are hoping 11% will provide the balance we are looking for.


Your program seem to push till something break. I hope it not the game.

Sellmewarez
Posted - 2009.09.23 09:42:00 - [168]
 

CCP if you really want to get people out of NPC corps then go fix your crappy wardec system that is abused to the point where most people would never move from their NPC corp.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.23 09:58:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: LegendaryFrog

"Complete safety from war-decs" (and thus the ability to gain isk in the most secure way possible in this game)


Balanced by complete inability to help friends in the same corporation in combat without consequences (Concord in high sec, standing loss in low sec).

Originally by: LegendaryFrog

"No taxes" (self-explanatory, you get to keep 100% of what you make)



Balanced by no privileges linked to the taxes: from POS spamming to corporate ship replacement programs.

Originally by: LegendaryFrog

"Guaranteed membership" (can't be kicked out for any reason)



Yes, "Guaranteed membership" in a corp chat, as the NPC corp don't give anything more.

If you can't trump those "advantages" whit what your corp give it is a fault of your corp, not of the NPC corp.

Even a simple service like "on demand" BPC production from the corp BPO library (0 risk of losing the BPO as you give only a copy to the player, without ever giving access tot he BPo) will be worth a lot to players if offered and cost little to the corp.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.23 10:24:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Jacob Mei
Had to sum this up so I could actually post. You listed the three best reasons why player corps are generally avoided as well as the three hardest issues to be fixed. Now when you combine this list with the very comments by these devs, that this “tax” was easy to code it tells you a lot about their work ethic.


Then make your own corp, set tax to 0% and kick anyone who shoots at blues.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.09.23 10:30:00 - [171]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 23/09/2009 10:51:03
Ah super, there has been a dramatically change of focus for the design of EVE away from open ended sandbox towards streamlined themepark with fixed goals set by the developers. The attitude of this blog fits well with the message about 0.0 warfare being the endgame of EVE which Torfi specified in one of the short interviews during the alliance tournament.

When will we be getting rid of the skill training system and get 9 iconic classes will levels and gear to grind instead?

Seriously, this tax is nothing in it self. A slight decrease in income for most. But the attitude that there is suddenly are wrong ways to play EVE, and that CCP now suddenly have major undisclosed plans to root out all ways of playing the game wrong is hugely concerning.

Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.23 10:38:00 - [172]
 

All these people in NPC corps speaking **** are awfull tbh.

Balh blah blah going agaisnt sandbox, blah blah blah CCP is obliguing me, blah blah blah tears. You're making fun of yourself, almost to the level of nanotears and other epic whiners.

No one is obliguing you, you go against the sandbpox by protecting yourself against a lot of forms of PLAYER INTERACTION (shocker, EVE is an MMOG). And you are pretty much useless to the game world, like a pester who only increases inflation and don't consume.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.09.23 10:44:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 23/09/2009 10:44:24
Originally by: Adam Ridgway

No one is obliguing you, you go against the sandbpox by protecting yourself against a lot of forms of PLAYER INTERACTION (shocker, EVE is an MMOG). And you are pretty much useless to the game world, like a pester who only increases inflation and don't consume.


Could you please direct me to where the previously open interpretation of what qualifies as PLAYER INTERACTION has been specified and written down?

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.09.23 10:49:00 - [174]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 23/09/2009 11:12:09
Originally by: Sellmewarez
CCP if you really want to get people out of NPC corps then go fix your crappy wardec system that is abused to the point where most people would never move from their NPC corp.


Aye. If CCP should have pulled this one off wonderfully they would have added the taxation AND finally made wardecs more than a "pay to grief" system, which they have been mumbling about wanting to change for years.

Guess "easy solutions" is the fashion this year.

Blanchet
Gallente
Tactical Reconnaissance
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:02:00 - [175]
 

11% ? Laughing

try harder!!

Ariane VoxDei
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:04:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Just to make it clear, I designed this change. If you're going to blame anyone, put it on me
Fair enough soundwave.
Don't bother thinking that this will get the idea of the hook though. Only difference is that now you will take the core beating.
Prism still has to bear the weight of what he posted (particularly the RMT slander). That was miles below acceptable standard.

Good Advice
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:14:00 - [177]
 

The main issue with NPC corps seems to be their immunity to war-decs, and this change won't fix anything at all. People who want to avoid the flawed war-dec system, which even CCP has admitted is a "pay to grief" system (CSM Minutes), will form a simple 1-man corp. They are essentially risk-free from war-decs. This fails to achieve CCPs goal of moving people into real player corporations, and continues to protect them from "elite" pvpers that dec 3-man mining corps.

If you really want to improve player transitions to a player corporation;

1. Fix the war-dec system. No one should be completely safe, but no group of 1 month players should have their game ruined because a bunch of veterans have some alts and are bored. When the goal of someone is to make another player emoragequit, thats a sign that your system is flawed.

2. Fix security in corporations. Allow people to have more granular corp roles, and perhaps have players not be allowed to attack corp members for their first 7 days in corp. This would make corporations a little more likely to accept new players.

3. Implement the NPC tax, along with market taxes for NPCs (at a lower rate)

My issue isn't with the idea of an NPC corp tax, but the fact that it is a completely pointless mechanism to implement CCP's vision without other changes in game mechanics.

Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Not Found.
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:44:00 - [178]
 

Edited by: Sky Marshal on 23/09/2009 11:48:16

Quote:
11% is our starting estimate. If it turns out that this number is too low and the changes do not have the impact we hope, it can always be adjusted to a higher level. Right now though, we are hoping 11% will provide the balance we are looking for.


Really greeeaaattt CCP, really.

Not only you use the stick to force people to play as YOU want but not as THEY want and still think that it is a sandbox, but also you threaten people to raise more taxes in the future if THEY still refuse to act like YOU want.

You are really a bunch of m... Well, I know it since a while, as you always like apply easy solutions same if this will add more problems than before. Check my signature for exemple...

Sergil
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:53:00 - [179]
 

Hmm... Not sure that somebody have notised this thing some time up this thread, but:

May be the number of available offices at npc-stations must be increased? Now it's hard to find an empty office slot in the popular (and even in the 'not-so-popular') hi-sec system. And what will be after patch when every second agent-runner creates it's own corp?

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:55:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Sergil
Hmm... Not sure that somebody have notised this thing some time up this thread, but:

May be the number of available offices at npc-stations must be increased? Now it's hard to find an empty office slot in the popular (and even in the 'not-so-popular') hi-sec system. And what will be after patch when every second agent-runner creates it's own corp?


Office is not required for corporation.

You are mistaken Headquarters and Office most likely. Headquarters use no slots.


Pages: first : previous : ... 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 ... : last (18)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only