open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked New Dev Blog: I Bring Gifts! (By Gifts I Mean Taxes, Sorry)
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (18)

Author Topic

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.22 18:41:00 - [61]
 

Quote:
This is a terrible idea. Why? Because I own the right to my own life. Not my corporation. A tax says that the taxing body owns all of my income, and allows me to keep a certain percentage of it (in this case, 89%). That is bull****. I make my money, I get to keep my money, all 100% of it.

First, its not your life... it's a game.
Second, you don't own your isk (or other assest for that matter)... CCP does.
Third, you might want to be careful with that philosophy. Since taxes pay for various essential services, if you refuse to pay those taxes you should also be prepared to deal with doing without those services such as the police dept., the fire dept., public education for your children, equal protection under the law, the right to vote... shall I go on?
In game terms your NPC corp taxes primarily pay for Concord protection, and complete immunity from War Decs. If you would prefer to operate without Concord protection, perhaps CCP can work something out for you. Wink





Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2009.09.22 18:44:00 - [62]
 

How does one apply to SCC? Laughing

AbudSeab
Posted - 2009.09.22 18:47:00 - [63]
 

Nice change.

It's just like a wardec safety tax in the end of the day.

For those mission runners: it's just 11%. it mean you need to run 21 instead of 20 missions to have same money. Remember that sometimes most of mission money comes from wreck and salvage. So don't complain that much.

But agreed with Altarre when he said:

Originally by: Altaree
This BIGGEST problem with this is that the tax only applies to mission runners. Tax is only on bounties and mission rewards. This change will not impact traders in any way. It will not impact miners. The list goes on, but these are the big two that can be easily taxed...


The hole tax system in eve is very primitive. it should be possible to a corp to tax every action of a player.

Also player corps should give bonus. something like a corp skill training, So it will be a harder decision to dismiss a corp after it have reached some level. Also the corp skill system could be have exclusive options.

This way if corps goes to production it can not give combat bonus, etc... same for research, mining, exploration...

Would be nice to have corps meaning more than a bunch of friends paying for work... Corps in eve are more like associations, not corp.


syphurous
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.22 18:47:00 - [64]
 

If we took out every post in these threads that is simply PvPers thinking they are getting fresh easy targets we'd have a total of about 2 pages.

Quote:
We would prefer that players join player corporations, or other entities that shape the world of EVE at a higher degree than the NPC corporations do, due to their impersonal and somewhat isolated role.


Yet again proving CCP doesn't play their own game, and over looks things that get in the way of the way they wish to force players to play their game. Its obvious that no one at CCP has taken anytime to research this change and are now making things up to explain them.

Within CAS there is a great community, with a large bunch of regulars, mostly casual players. We can get anyone who asks into low sec or 0.0 and even put them in touch with the active entities of those areas. Mailing lists, activity specific channels, and organized events. We even suggest the better ways of looking for corps ( how to make sure they aren't going to just get taxed to death and used like 90% of the corps that recruit out of n00b corp ), and can even move members to corps that have CAS Alumni. Meaning that the player corps we service get good players, looking to involve themselves in the same tasks & have valuable members join them who have already proven themselves. Its like an internship service, a mechanic that cant be found with in the structure of Eve.


We have people who will take a day off work to come to one of our events because it is simply the only time they would ever be able to experience certain aspects that they simply cant be apart of due to their usual casual play time. Some of these go on to join or even create new corps and those corps succeed most of the time as they have already known what they will be getting themselves into before they start.

This tax only means I have less to put towards helping other players achieve their goals & taste those parts of eve they would not be able to normally. Nerfing NPC corps, Nerfing Player Corps, hows that for "emergent".

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
Posted - 2009.09.22 18:48:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 22/09/2009 18:57:42
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 22/09/2009 18:56:43


I'll throw in some random ideas. Have done it at another thread, but gonna repost it here just to get sure someone will actually notice them.

11% is merely a first step.

You'd need to:

- implement a higher progressive tax covering those who have been playing few years while still hanging in the newbie-dungeons NPC corps. So it's 11% right from the start and up to 90% if you're 2 years old vet.Twisted Evil

- prohibit lvl 4/5 missions for those in NPC corps.Cool

- prohibit the use of certain ship types for said people. Like Hulks, Navy battleships, Marauders, etc. Embarassed

- make at least 14 days timer for corp swapping. No need to say this is to prevent farmers from abusing current wardec mechanics. YARRRR!!

- prohibit hi-sec missions for militia membears ugh

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
Posted - 2009.09.22 18:48:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Mithfindel on 22/09/2009 18:55:20
So, the effect of the corp tax:

- Most level 1's do not have high enough rewards to trigger the tax threshold (100k ISK), though some do. Some also do have enough rats to the bounties trigger the tax (i.e. total of 100k ISK worth of rats killed in 15 minutes).
- On higher levels, some estimates place the reward to be 10 - 30 % when loot, salvage and LP is included. A roughly ten percent tax means thus 1 - 3 % of total income, if you use the tools you've been given.
- Miners will not be affected. Sure, they pay the refine tax, but so do the people in player corps, that's equal to all. For traders, the case is similar.

All in all, the tax won't really change much - perhaps a tiny ISK sink amongst others. It is more like a hint that "hey, you could be in a player corp and earn 1 - 3 % more". As in, if you now earn little over 30 million per hour (figure purely for the sake of the example), you could earn little over 31 million per hour. Big deal?

Also, an armed community is a polite community. Don't mouth off, don't get ganked. Wardecs cost peanuts. For the decs to be common, they need to be at least one of two:
(1) Profitable
or
(2) Fun

Don't cry in local or send hatemail how you're going to sooo get after that damn 12 years old griefer with your GM friend. If you're cool, the yarrbears will be cool. Alternatively, if you are nowhere to be found or don't undock (a nice moment to try a bit different things, perhaps with an alt?), the big bad gankers won't spend that many weeks watching the station undock.

Edit: Also, for the other side of the fence, a.k.a. "kick all those tasty carebears out of the NPC corps so I can gank effortless targets or I'll cancel my account" crowd, it's good to remember that simple solutions are the best. Progressive tax based on SP? Can you do that in a player corp? No? Well, what's the chance of CCP implementing that for NPC corps?

Admitted, I wouldn't mind seeing the NPC corps taxless, and then an auto-boot to bloodline corps (with some tax) if they're still there at day X after character creation. (Perhaps as a downtime task, if wanting to avoid adding some kind of a realtime script.) This could be done with the regular mechanic - if a character leaves a player corp, it'll end into a bloodline corp. If wanting to keep the school corp communities longer together, add a "SWA Alumni" channel to the selection (etc. for other corps) - because the NPC corp really isn't anything more than a chat channel and a wardec immunity.

Niara Takeva
Posted - 2009.09.22 18:56:00 - [67]
 

Does the tax also apply to FW Corps?

Daemonspirit
Six Degrees of Separation
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:03:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Niara Takeva
Does the tax also apply to FW Corps?


No - read the blog...Rolling Eyes


Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:06:00 - [69]
 

When are you going to implement a fee (little and also standing based) for chatting in local?

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:07:00 - [70]
 

Awesome. Tax level is too low, but it's a step in the right direction.

Mikayla Grey
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:09:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Ukucia
Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: Caldor Mansi
Awesome. We need more pointless things like 1 man corps in New Eden.


Keep it coming!


Well, at least 1 man corps can be wardecced, making them potentially players of interest, rather than just background noise.

1 man corps disband instantly.
New 1 man corps can be created instantly. And it costs less than the fee charged for a wardec.

This does nothing to provide more targets for the wanna-be PVPers who live in empire.


Indeed next step is hopefully to have wardecs follow you for a bit even if you leave/disband corp.

But 1-man corps are so low on the wardeck list it wont matter anyway.

Glengrant
Beyond Limited
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:12:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 22/09/2009 15:13:25
It seems you haven't read the multitudes of replies in the other two threads.... Rolling Eyes

How is encouraging players into their own little 1-man corp going to improve social interaction in the game?

That IS going to be the most likely scenario, since doing so is a 5 second job (after training a level 1 skill), whereas a player might not be ready yet for deciding to join a corp, or doesn't want to take the time to do so.
Once that player is out of the NPC corp, his social interaction in EVE drastically reduces, meaning he'll be even less likely to meet people who he'll join up with. Most likely he'll experience EVE as a mainly single-player game. How is THAT a benefit?

You know (or should know at least), that when a new player notice the tax, and asks whether there is a good way to get around it, the 'old player' in (NPC) corp chat will advice him the easiest solution, which is to create a 1-man corp.... The advice will NOT be to join an already established player corp...



None of that makes any sense to me.
I know nobody who would advise new players to create a 1 man corp. What would be the advantage of that? Sure you avoid the 11% tax (remember that it doesn't apply to many things like trading, mining, etc.. 11% on bounties and rewards won't totally cripple anybodies income).

In a 1-man corp you have the disadvantage of a non-npc corp (war-decs) without the advantages (friendly corp chat, help, shared corp hangars for mining ops etc, etc...).

It takes *nothing* special to be "ready" for a corp. All you need is a half-decent corp that is willing to accept noobs (no shortage of that) - done.

Vxrasa
Caldari
Creative Cookie Procuring
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:13:00 - [73]
 

I fully support this change, but I DO think CCP should watch the consequences of this carefully, it might have unintended consequences...

Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:16:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Dynus
Add a feature to allow war decs on individuals in NPC corps, or end up in small, abandoned player corps.
This is a good idea, this way you are safe in an NPC corp as long as you keep a low profile, but when you lose that you need a pc corp to maintain safety, althought war prices needs to increase to some noticeable number to make wars have meaning. If you want to fight you should have a reason to do so.

Originally by: Soundwave
It seems like an unrealistic scenario that the empires in EVE provide infrastructure, security and a host of other financially demanding services at no cost.
Quote:
#1. Isn't it just as unrealistic that the same services are supplied to player corp for free?
#2. 1-man player corp has exactly the same protections (in real terms), with no cost.
#3. How is it better for EVE that 1000's of 1-man player corp springs up?


Originally by: Soundwave
I sometimes read people complaining about how EVEs physics are unrealistic, but on the realism scale, that still pales compared to a government that refuses to tax its citizens.
Wow... just wow. It is nice to have tax on NPC Corps if that serves to acomplish something (wich certainly will not on this alone), but do you think goverments' taxes are more important to the world's reality than physics laws? Shocked
It is not like there were free tax environments IRL. Rolling Eyes

Glengrant
Beyond Limited
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:21:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: syphurous
If we took out every post in these threads that is simply PvPers thinking they are getting fresh easy targets we'd have a total of about 2 pages.

Quote:
We would prefer that players join player corporations, or other entities that shape the world of EVE at a higher degree than the NPC corporations do, due to their impersonal and somewhat isolated role.


Yet again proving CCP doesn't play their own game, and over looks things that get in the way of the way they wish to force players to play their game. Its obvious that no one at CCP has taken anytime to research this change and are now making things up to explain them.


[... CAS is super-cool and different ...]
That's nice. I'm happy that (assuming all you said is correct) CAS is such a nice exception to the rule.

But your whole argument is a bit irrelevant if things are not as wonderful in other NPC corps.

Originally by: syphurous
This tax only means I have less to put towards helping other players achieve their goals & taste those parts of eve they would not be able to normally. Nerfing NPC corps, Nerfing Player Corps, hows that for "emergent".


The only thing wrong with that 11% tax is that it won't affect people *enough* to induce much change.

NPC corps are a necessary evil in the design of this sandbox. Whatever is grand and great at CAS can be done in a player corp. Get the same community in "CAS Ltd" and it's still the same community.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:31:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave

So why this change?

* It seems like an unrealistic scenario <snip for brevity>

* NPC corporations are meant to be temporary spaces where people can go about their daily activities while searching for a player corporation. <snipped>

* We would prefer that players join player corporations, or other entities that shape the world of EVE at a higher degree than the NPC corporations do, due to their impersonal and somewhat isolated role. <you got it, more snippage>


Trillions of "taxpayers" pay their taxes to support Concord so I don't throw boulders at them from low-orbit... Which I could totally get into by the way...Twisted Evil

War-dec immunity is worth far more than 11% - Especially to all the alts in NPC Corps...Rolling Eyes

Want more people in "player corps"?

New Players:
http://www.eve-ivy.com/index.php

Be warned - Eve Uni gets almost constant war-decs, so:

You don't even have to join - stay in the NPC corp and Look for "Eve High".

Corps looking to Recruit?
http://www.eve-ivy.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=66

Eve University Recruitment thread - open to all...


There you go, I've now accomplished more to get new players into player corps than this change will accomplish. And just as an aside - they've been doing it for 5 or 6 years now...

And it didn't take any coding whatsoever...

Maybe, if CCP wants more people to leave NPC corps, they could stick some grunts into the channels as resources to give the n00bs an idea of where they could look for Corps?

I know when I started, recruitment forum was *highly* suspect to me, because as was pointed out from day one, trusting people in Eve is a bad idea... That might be having something to do with new players perceptions...


Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:33:00 - [77]
 

To be permawardecced? Every corp except eve-uni, since they are really well organized, better than can you expect from the average corp, which focusses on rookies will be perma wardecced by our 'pro' pvp'ers. That is just the sad truth.

If other NPC corporations arent fun (only got recent experience in scope, which is a great npc corp imo), then people will go themselves to player corporations.

Also i can tell CCP now that 11% tax wont have much influence. But for all the pro pvp'ers who only like to wardec rookies and industrials and for ccp, although that might be the same group, raising it will only result in a ****load of 1-men corp, which is how CCP apparently plans to increase social interaction, by decreasing it.


Quote:
in-game adverts or the recruitment channel

Let me try to ask this nicely.

How stupid are you guys exactly? On a scale from 1 to 10? Serious did you ever bother to check those things before including them in a dev blog? While the recruitment forums have some uses, in game adverts and in game recruitment channel are completely pointless. Asking in jita local for a corp will result in more useful results.

When you make a game and specifically target it on all the sociopaths out there, dont be surprised when they also start corporations to scam members, steal from them, or just only tax them/use them as slaves. Then you shouldnt be surprised when people prefer to stay in a nice NPC corp with active chat.

Sunaj Sin'Sakki
Amarr
North Khanid Traders
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:38:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: Sunaj Sin''Sakki on 22/09/2009 19:38:29
This has been a long time coming, and probably was an over-sight when the game was first created. However, i for one, am looking forward to the new Democratic/Labor Party leadership thats imposing New Eden wide taxes. Laughing

About time that there was some draw back to hiding in an NPC corporation.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:52:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 22/09/2009 20:10:03
Quote:
How stupid are you guys exactly?


So Furb, do you really think that those folks that are active and organized in the "great" NPC corps aren't going to now feel a little bit more incentive to get together and form a corp amongst themselves? Why would they consider forming a multitude of 1 man corps? That makes no sense what-so-ever.

What they will feel is one more good reason to properly organize themselves and step out on their own to finally experience the game to its fullest potental (with all of the inherent risks and rewards that entails). This or stay as they are in the NPC corp, but with an slight income adjustment to balance the near perfect safety they recieve. Staying in a safe NPC corp SHOULD be slightly less profitable than being in a riskier player corp. Risk vs reward.
The people that "will" get upset are the experienced players that hide thier high sec mission running alts in the noob corps, as it will cut into the only reason they are there... that being risk free profit.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2009.09.22 19:54:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X

For my part, I had wet dreams about making it 100%.. cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity and intending to sell it through RMT. Thankfully they don't let draconian little me design stuff. Laughing


That would certainly repopulate 0.0... with Raven bots...

Oh well, moar targets. :)

Chip Flux
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:12:00 - [81]
 

Corp is the basis of Eve.
CCP is joining the side of the ignorant and calling me a carebear
They are saying my Corp is not valid.
You provided me with the best social group in ANY online game.
Now you are saying that although I am proud to be a member of CAS, it is wrong

STOP ROLEPLAYING CCP this is important to me

This is a FINE

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:19:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It seems like an unrealistic scenario that the empires in EVE provide infrastructure, security and a host of other financially demanding services at no cost. I sometimes read people complaining about how EVEs physics are unrealistic, but on the realism scale, that still pales compared to a government that refuses to tax its citizens.

Btw, how realistic is it that the empires in EVE would allow wars in highsec at all?

Wars are costly. Wars destroy infrastructure they have to replace. You don't see agents from Coke shooting agents from Pepsi in real life, 'cause governments don't like random violence.

So if you're gonna try to argue NPC taxes are more realistic for government, when can we see other, more realistic changes for Governments? Things like: shoot anyone in Empire, not only does your ship get concorded, they also pod you, your clone is arrested and you spend the next 20-to-life in prison?

'Cause I really have never understood why the factions in EvE even allow wardecs at all, if we look at it realistically.

Now, if you're gonna say you need wardecs for game play purposes, well then let's not pretend taxes are making it more realistic.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:20:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: Ashina Sito
1) This tax does not help in getting NPC corpies out into low/0.0 space. I have spent a lot of my Eve time teaching people how to live in 0.0 space, without the need of a Player corp. If I could go out at 7 weeks old and survive Anyone could. This tax will not only hit bounties in missions but the bounties for rats in belts and exploration sites in 0.0 space. My work at getting more people out into 0.0 and doing PvP will be undermined by this tax. It is already hard enough to get people motivated to make less ISk in 0.0. The removal of the attribute implant carry over after podding (Apocrpha 1.3) compounds the problem. Every action CCP is making is making it harder for me to get people involved in PvP.


Well, if it was changed so that Empire NPC tax doesn't count in 0.0, and the 0.0 Faction NPC tax only counts within that factions jurisdiction, would that allay your concerns? It would seem to make sense that the long arm of the tax man wouldn't be able to extend very far, without interfering with CCPs core aims with this tax.


Add Concord not paying bounties in 0.0 Twisted Evil.

Why they should care what people outside the empire do to other people outside the empire.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:21:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Chip Flux
Corp is the basis of Eve.
CCP is joining the side of the ignorant and calling me a carebear
They are saying my Corp is not valid.
You provided me with the best social group in ANY online game.
Now you are saying that although I am proud to be a member of CAS, it is wrong

STOP ROLEPLAYING CCP this is important to me

This is a FINE



Donīt bother.

Isnīt it clear from Ccp Prisms post that we are not welcome in this game?
After all we are all RMT Traders anyways. Had I only seen this comming three years ago.

Chip Flux
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:24:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Chip Flux on 22/09/2009 20:35:38
yes, not welcome....
:(

... CAS has been battling the isk sellers for ever.
God knows how many petitions are created everyday.
Maybe we take up too much gm time doing it

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:37:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Nemtar Nataal
You should have used this quote insted of quoting Roosevelt

"Nothing is certain but death and taxes"



In a world of clones and one man corp you avoid both.

And that is exactly why this "bright" idea will be a failure.

Dav Varan
Posted - 2009.09.22 20:39:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Dav Varan on 22/09/2009 20:40:57
[Quoting the blog]
It seems like an unrealistic scenario that the empires in EVE provide infrastructure, security and a host of other financially demanding services at no cost. I sometimes read people complaining about how EVEs physics are unrealistic, but on the realism scale, that still pales compared to a government that refuses to tax its citizens.


Its good to know you care about financial realism.

Now how about taking care of the by now 1000x bankrupt insurance companies ?.

Or is it one rule for nubs another rule for suicide gankers ??


Valrandir
Gallente
Distant Thunder
Perihelion Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:06:00 - [88]
 

awesome

skye orionis
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:14:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Ashina Sito

In the end all the time, effort and aggravation the change will have brought on will be for nothing. If he change will do nothing to bring about the change CCP seeks, so why do it?


Well you can live with the aggravation of creating zero tax corps and dealing with wardecs, or pay the 11% fee to avoid all that aggravation. It's up to you.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.22 21:19:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Glengrant
I know nobody who would advise new players to create a 1 man corp. What would be the advantage of that? Sure you avoid the 11% tax (remember that it doesn't apply to many things like trading, mining, etc.. 11% on bounties and rewards won't totally cripple anybodies income).

And nobody would advise newbies that they HAD to spend the first 1-2 months training leaning skills to be able to compete (with the result that said newbies got bored to death), yet it happened anyway!

People will advise the easy way out, and since the people asked would be the others in their NPC corp, the thought of joining a 'real' player corp would not be the solution they'd suggest.
Originally by: Glengrant
In a 1-man corp you have the disadvantage of a non-npc corp (war-decs) without the advantages (friendly corp chat, help, shared corp hangars for mining ops etc, etc...).

Wardec's are not a problem in a 1-man corp. First, they only happen very rarely (I've had my main in a 1-man corp for years, and he's never been dec'ed), secondly it takes about 10 seconds to disband a 1-man corp and create a new one....
Originally by: Glengrant
It takes *nothing* special to be "ready" for a corp. All you need is a half-decent corp that is willing to accept noobs (no shortage of that) - done.

You forget one CRUCIAL thing! Playing EVE enough to get accepted into a good corp!
It is correct there are no shortage of corp that'll accept newbies to help scam them... The ones you really want to join require a certain level of attendance.

This change is just pure poison for casual players since the 'solution' presented by CCP is not actually available to them!

Plus of.c. the fact that in 9 out of 10 player corp, the social interaction is much less than in NPC corp, simply because of the sheer amount of members. So you join a 10 man corp, and log on to find 2 non-communicative ones there.... Gee, what a laugh....

To repeat, I'm not opposed in principle to an NPC corp tax, but just doing that on its own is pretty stupid...


Pages: first : previous : 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (18)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only