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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2009.09.25 09:41:00 - [331]
 

It is worse than just the 1-Man corp scenario, that will mainly apply to 0.0 alts and farmers.

The casual player who logs in to have a few hours a week as an escape from the real world, will have no reason to stay with Eve at all = less accounts.
Running a corp, even if it has just you means not only the fail empire-pvp'ers but bills (and now taxes) - the things they are probably trying to escape from, there are absolutely NO reason to go PC unless you do a lot of industry.

NB: While I was a "casual player" at the beginning, the only reason I chose Eve over the single player game like X2/3, which is awesome in its own right, was the channel chatter, local as well as npc corp.
As I devoted more time to Eve I branched out into industry and founded corporation to get hangar divisions, and that was the only reason.

Twitchy Khan
Posted - 2009.09.25 09:46:00 - [332]
 

Quote:
I'm seldom in an NPC corp, but this strikes me as another case where CCP sees people playing wrong with the toys in the sandbox.


The problem is that the sandbox doesn't really extend into Empire. There, choices and options are artificially restricted and prevent players from experiencing the richest possible reward-consequence interplay that EVE has to offer. While a tax is probably an easy and reasonably effective way to get newbies thinking about player corps sooner, more drastic measures are needed. And yes, it's perfectly reasonable to remove perks from NPC corps instead of adding them to player corps. If you only add stuff to balance your see-saw, you'll eventually break it. It's good to take things away sometimes.

To that end, some ideas of my own:

1) Allow NPC corp wardecs. To prevent noobragequits, give a personal immunity to new players that is lost at a certain SP threshold or upon leaving the NPC corp. I'd be okay with FW NPC corp being immune to player wardecs since there's already an NPC wardec in place for them. I see this not as adding wardecs, but as removing immunities.

But personally, the biggest barrier to leaving my NPC corp was the knowledge I'd likely never see my corpmates in chat again. But I was assured that I'd have to leave to get at the meat of EVE (not necessarily PvP). It's so very true. Incidentally, I don't miss my newb corp at all. The members of the VlkG (my only corp until recently) and Ushra'Khan have been infinitely more intelligent and amusing than my NPC corpmates ever were. So...

2) Do away with NPC corps altogether. Allow an "unaffiliated", corp-less status (basically a corp. of 1 with no logo, name, or other options) and start pilots off in that state. New players, instead of corp chat, also start connected to a racial newbie channel (that is always open to others who started there). This way joining a player corp brings no feeling of having to leave another corp. If people want to stay unaffiliated and organize their own "black market" corps outside the EVE mechanics and through private chat channels, CCP should embrace that.

I'm aware that these two ideas conflict. They are just alternative EVE realities that I would be very happy with.

3) If NPC corps are kept, only allow players to do missions for that corp. No, it's not unrealistic. My own alliance forbids me from running missions for Amarr NPC corps. Leaving the NPC corps would "unlock" agents for other corps. This keep the nice safe little newbie space simple and accessible, but encourages pilots to step out and widen their world. Ideally, IMO, the newb corps wouldn't have lvl4 agents at all, giving pilots additional incentive to leave.

Althus Treefingers
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2009.09.25 09:51:00 - [333]
 

Edited by: Althus Treefingers on 25/09/2009 09:58:12
Oops, Twitchy meant to post as Althus. Anyways, whatever good NPC corps did in the past, they represent a pretty significant breakage in the game today. There must be other ways to keep new players safe without allowing advanced players to exploit the immunities. My preference is generally to do away with NPC corps altogether and find something more effective to replace them.

EVE is at its strongest when it demands the most from its players. If it drifts toward a "safe"/"not safe" dual nature, CCP will find itself hemorrhaging "safe" players every time another Aion or Jumpgate shows up. There's just too much competition among the easy MMOGs and the masses are fickle.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.25 14:11:00 - [334]
 

Edited by: Ranka Mei on 25/09/2009 14:15:03
Though I have seen and known enough of EVE to be well aware that I shall perhaps stand alone in my creed, and that it will be well if I subject myself to no worse charge than that of singularity, I am not therefore deterred from avowing that I regard, and ever have regarded, npc corp taxes a great evil.

"NPC corporations are meant to be temporary spaces where people can go about their daily activities while searching for a player corporation. Currently the level of comfort they provide, both in terms of war declaration immunity and 0% tax, give them an inherent advantage over player corporations which was never intended."

The option to play EVE solo (without getting penalized for it) was intended by design, from day 1. Not everyone is into PVP, or looking to join a player corporation (and get wardecced ever so often). Even industrial corps -- or especially industrial corps, even -- get wardecced. It's a sad trend, which even the devs apparently seem to follow, that the lives of carebears are continually made more difficult.

"Hopefully, this will let player corporations compete on equal footing with NPC corporations."

NPC corps, apart from offering war-dec immunity and 0% tax, are otherwise utterly worthless (market issues notwithstanding). Player corps are competing just fine, offering fleet-protection, POS access, etc. And this added value justifies them levying taxes -- which people pay (within reason). So, what do you think will happen now when npc corps are charging 11% tax? I predict the same as they do now: they will increase tax, like to 22%, saying you pay extra for the things you can't get in a npc corp! 22% would be ludicrous under current conditions; but when npc corps all start you off with 11% tax...

Also, the choice to remain in/fall back to nps corps, so as not to get wardecced, is not something that gives npc corps an 'unfair' advantage. It's simple a legitimate EVE choice not to get involved in pvp/war-like activities. You can still do that after the change, but you'll be made to pay for it now in the near future. And that's sad.

Inferno Styx
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.25 14:53:00 - [335]
 

The way I see it you still have just as many choices as you ever had.

1. Stay in the NPC corp and pay the 11% tax and stop crying.

2. Create your own corp and be bored out of your mind because you never talk to anyone.

3. Join a (God forbid) Player Corp that does Mission Running, Mining, Whatever you want to do. Maybe meet some cool people and have some fun, and Jesus maybe find a group of people that are actually worth you fighting to defend.

Everyone is complaining that CCP is changing your choices for you. Looks to me like you still have all the same choices as before the tax. Please enlighten me to which choice they are taking away from you.

Who cares if they would prefer you to be in POC's this is a MMOG not a single player game.

Anhur Shu
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
Posted - 2009.09.25 15:55:00 - [336]
 

Edited by: Anhur Shu on 25/09/2009 16:16:03
Originally by: Inferno Styx
The way I see it you still have just as many choices as you ever had.

1. Stay in the NPC corp and pay the 11% tax and stop crying.

2. Create your own corp and be bored out of your mind because you never talk to anyone.

3. Join a (God forbid) Player Corp that does Mission Running, Mining, Whatever you want to do. Maybe meet some cool people and have some fun, and Jesus maybe find a group of people that are actually worth you fighting to defend.

Everyone is complaining that CCP is changing your choices for you. Looks to me like you still have all the same choices as before the tax. Please enlighten me to which choice they are taking away from you.

Who cares if they would prefer you to be in POC's this is a MMOG not a single player game.


You obviously would have known WHY so many people care had you taken the time to actually read those reasons. So, a summation of your choices -

1. people aren't upset at the tax itself (not gonna explain it if you don't care.....which is obvious)

2. they WILL create 1-man corps, because to you it may be boring, to a lot of other people playing solo is what they WANT to do, which AGAIN is why the tax, in and of itself, will NOT have the desired effect CCP is looking for

3. there are more corps NOT worth joining than there are WORTH joining, and because of this people prefer the safety and grief-free environment of NPC corps.

again, this has all been stated , and there have been many suggestions as to what actually CAN be done to have the desired effect CCP is looking for. Please feel free to read them all, in the 4 or 5 threads going on.

something somethingdark
Posted - 2009.09.25 16:07:00 - [337]
 

Originally by: Inferno Styx
The way I see it you still have just as many choices as you ever had.

3. Join a (God forbid) Player Corp that does Mission Running, Mining, Whatever you want to do. Maybe meet some cool people and have some fun, and Jesus maybe find a group of people that are actually worth you fighting to defend.

Everyone is complaining that CCP is changing your choices for you. Looks to me like you still have all the same choices as before the tax. Please enlighten me to which choice they are taking away from you.

Who cares if they would prefer you to be in POC's this is a MMOG not a single player game.



The little issue you are forgetting that there is very little PvE content that realy requires multiple person intereaction. The content that is, is sub par in many ways, most glaring is rewards.
The content that requires more persons is mostly situated in "unsecure space". Exactly those parts of space npc corp dwellers that arnt alts of people already in 0.0 do not want or care to visit.

Does this seperate them from the vast vast majority of eve ?
Yeah
Do they care ?
Not realy
Is this minute change, standing on its own, completly without the wonderful things one could do to gently nudge people in a "better" dirrection, reducing the often touted sandbox ?
Yes it does


Being a hauler alt for a 0.0 character ... i dont realy care personaly ... nor would it matter much to me if i had to be in a 1 person corp ... are exactly these type of alts more of a problem than people who plain like to stick to npc corps and god forbid the community they have built there ?
You tell me

Jacob Mei
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.25 16:13:00 - [338]
 

Originally by: Inferno Styx
The way I see it you still have just as many choices as you ever had.

1. Stay in the NPC corp and pay the 11% tax and stop crying.

2. Create your own corp and be bored out of your mind because you never talk to anyone.

3. Join a (God forbid) Player Corp that does Mission Running, Mining, Whatever you want to do. Maybe meet some cool people and have some fun, and Jesus maybe find a group of people that are actually worth you fighting to defend.

Everyone is complaining that CCP is changing your choices for you. Looks to me like you still have all the same choices as before the tax. Please enlighten me to which choice they are taking away from you.

Who cares if they would prefer you to be in POC's this is a MMOG not a single player game.


The fundimental issue is that CCP has toated Eve Online as a Sandbox in that your choices are completely up to you, that the devs took a decidedly hands off approach (in theory) to the actions of players so long as they did not break the rules laid down in the TOS.

Many players (regardless of if they are in a player corp or not) view this change as a direct contradiction to the sandbox concept. Granted it is a small one but Soundwave, and the devs that support him, have made no attempts to hide their true intent which is to force a players hand into doing predetermined actions regardless of how seemingly insignificant it is.

How long until some CCP devs feel that players logging on just to pvp isnt acceptable game play and force everyone to have a "mining qouta", with the ore going into oblivion? Sounds obsurd doesnt it? Well so does this change in its current form and with its current intent.

Little Feathers
Posted - 2009.09.25 16:19:00 - [339]
 

There's a lot of good discussion in here that I'm not going to interject into because people are already offering positions that I myself would, but as a new player... This tax will not do anything. Hi-sec isn't popular because of the profit involved, so taking away 11% of one's profits isn't really anything more than annoying. Mind you, annoyance can be gotten over - or it can be avoided by making a 1-man corp as others have stated. If people don't want to work with others, there's no fix for that; if they want to work with others on their terms, they're not going to budge because you remove a bit of money from their pocket. People are geared different ways.

That said, I'm sure there are new players who aren't adverse to joining a Player Corporation but find it a bit obscure how to go about joining one. Everything in EVE is very faceless, very non-personal in a cosmetic sense. I think Ambulation will help with this once it's brought out and more new players will join PCs than they would otherwise; until then, I don't think there's a clear answer.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.25 16:29:00 - [340]
 

Crosspost from gd

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Edited by: Julian Lynq on 25/09/2009 16:23:40
Everyone who is interested in discussing alternative solutions to help boosting player corporations and ease the process of players finding the right player corporation for them is invited to this thread:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1185265

It has been linked here allready but so far only 2 or 3 people contributed to it which I find quite low in regards to the amount of people in this thread whining about how player corporations need boosting.

Participating in this topic however requires the attending parties to have actual arguments and ideas and might force some to activate parts of their brain that have possibly been out of capacitor for too long.


Anima Aquinas
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.25 16:50:00 - [341]
 

Originally by: Inferno Styx
This is a MMOG not a single player game.


Correct it is.

It means instead of interacting solely with a computer script/code I can interact with other human beings. It doesn't in anyway, shape or form mean I have to be directly interacting via a group or Corporation, if I so desire I can choose to interact via chat, via the market, by watching other ships doing whatever they want to do.

This interaction can also happen in a number of "negative" ways such as via suicide ganks, can flippers, ninja salvagers, etc.

Ofcourse there are plenty of people in the world who would consider sitting at a computer playing internet spaceships a pretty ****ing odd way of interacting with others, but i'm sure we all agree that internet spaceships is serious business!

Stop trying to impose your view of how this "interaction" should take place onto other people.

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.25 17:12:00 - [342]
 

Edited by: Roland Thorne on 25/09/2009 17:12:44
Originally by: Jacob Mei


How long until some CCP devs feel that players logging on just to pvp isnt acceptable game play and force everyone to have a "mining qouta", with the ore going into oblivion? Sounds obsurd doesnt it? Well so does this change in its current form and with its current intent.


I'm a bit biased because I am more comfortable in the ways of 0.0, but it is widely known that pvp is the bread and butter of eve, in all forms. Combat, griefing, theft, smack-talk even if you choose to use that, though that may tell people more about yourself then it does them lol. The point is all of this is pvp and it is encouraged in eve. So your example is a little non-nonsensical.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.09.25 17:33:00 - [343]
 

This is a wrongheaded idea that will not accomplish the it's stated goal and hopefully the Dev's will figure this out before the change goes live rather than getting their backs up and bulling forward regardless of arguments against it.

It never a good idea in a MMO to irritate your largest and most profitable playerbase. Which is what this proposed change would do.

Understand I am not in the NPC corp the buddy who got me into this game and I formed up our own little player corp about as fast as I could train requisite skills. So this change will in no way affect me directly.

It will however effect me indirectly in that it will create one more disentive to new players in a game that is already very hostile to new players. Which will result in worse subscriber retention which will result in less resources available for maintinence and improvement and will eventualy result in the servers being shut down.

Seriously I suspect that the vast majority of people who are in NPC corporations are casual players who enjoy the game but don't have the time to commit to play it on the level required to be successful in Player Corps.

These people pay the same as your 23/7 power gamers yet they take far less server resources to support since they're only online a few hours a week.

Sure there are probably any number of alts, wardeck avoidersm greifers and RMTers also in them, However I strongly suspect based on experience in other games that they are a decided minority of those in NPC corporations.

This is both a poor business decision and a **** poor gameplay decision.

As has been pointed out many times in these threads the minority of people who abuse the system who you are attempting to target will easily avoid the tax by forming 1 man corporations.

The only people who end up being affected are those who have legitimate reasons for being in the NPC corps, the Newbies and the casual players who either aren't able or willing to move into the PC corporations for any number of reasons.

A bad idea does not become better through rationalization. And that's all that's been presented as arguments in favor.

The tax will not achieve the stated goal of increases player interaction by forcing them into real player corporations. It will instead reduce player interaction by taking people out of the large community channels that are serviced by these NPC corps.

Further even if the effective tax rate is minimal (and it is at this point) the intention behind the change is a bad one.

Because in the end this is an attempt to punish a particular playstyle no matter how you try to spin it.

This is a very bad idea and is disapointing since in general I've thought that the Dev's have shown quite a bit of creativity and sence in other aspects of the game.

If your goal really is to try and encourage more people to join player corporations then provide incentives for them to do so. Most importantly to that provide corporations the tools needed to create positive environments for their players.

From what I've seen of the corporation system so far it seems mostly a tool for greifers to be able to play at being sociopaths rather than useful organizational structures to enable cooperative play.

If you want people to group up and interact make it posible to do so. Make missions that require multiple pilots. Create mechanisms that allow a fleet to sign up for fleet missions rather than simply having one person get the mission and fleet up.

Give player corps faction standings with agents so that players can get access to better agents by joining corps with good faction standings.

Use carrots and you'll get better results.

As it is this idea is so full of fail that it boggles the mind.

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.25 17:42:00 - [344]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore

Understand I am not in the NPC corp the buddy who got me into this game and I formed up our own little player corp about as fast as I could train requisite skills. So this change will in no way affect me directly.


Do not assume that other people are any less intelligent, or less eager to find people they like to be with then you are.

Jacob Mei
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.25 18:00:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: Roland Thorne
Edited by: Roland Thorne on 25/09/2009 17:12:44
Originally by: Jacob Mei


How long until some CCP devs feel that players logging on just to pvp isnt acceptable game play and force everyone to have a "mining qouta", with the ore going into oblivion? Sounds obsurd doesnt it? Well so does this change in its current form and with its current intent.


I'm a bit biased because I am more comfortable in the ways of 0.0, but it is widely known that pvp is the bread and butter of eve, in all forms. Combat, griefing, theft, smack-talk even if you choose to use that, though that may tell people more about yourself then it does them lol. The point is all of this is pvp and it is encouraged in eve. So your example is a little non-nonsensical.



But lets take it from a dev's persective:

A mining qouta would mean more people logging on and thus making better use of their 15 a month.

This will encourage players to have a better appriatation of the ships they destroy.

Whoever would force this change would perfer that players mine and thus impose their views on what they should do in the game.

(If you cant tell my example is meant to be just as obsurd as the current change)

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2009.09.25 18:07:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Roland Thorne
Originally by: Skex Relbore

Understand I am not in the NPC corp the buddy who got me into this game and I formed up our own little player corp about as fast as I could train requisite skills. So this change will in no way affect me directly.


Do not assume that other people are any less intelligent, or less eager to find people they like to be with then you are.


I'm not making any such assumption. My point in the statement above is that I'm not expressing this oppinion out of fear to my isk stream.

My playstyle in this game is dictated by the factor of the amount of time I can commit due to real life commitments as well as my playing in a way that works with interacting with my friend who's an MMO neophyte (myself I'm a former EQ player who raided with one of the top 10 guilds in the game)

Had I just started this game by myself I'd probably be playing differently.

That being said I do have experience in MMO's as a less hardcore player as well as having 10 years of experience playing with various different people in other games. And seriously doubt that the playerbase of EVE is all that different form any other game despite what ever conciets it's players hold about themselves (which aren't any different substantially from the conceits people who play all those other games you mock hold about themselves) Raiders in EQ for example looked down on WoW players as well as not being "hardcore" enough to hack it in EQ (which frankly does have a very good raid system)

The arrogance of certain segments of EVE playerbase is hardly unique in the MMO world.

This idea is bad and the one thing I've not seen coming from the propoenents of the tax is any sort of rebuttal to the points made by those who are opposing it.

The fact that it's easily avoided by the use of single player corporatiosn.

The fact that it in no way makes player corporations a more attractive option, in that it in no way addresses the problems with those structures.

That it only punish's mission running and ratting while having 0 effect on industrialists or miners.

That it will not effect RTMers since they can just as easily form up their own shell corporations as any other player.

That it won't even result in more targets for the greifers because wardecs will remain trivially easy to avoid.

That it will in many cases remove what little social interaction these characters do have in the game, particularly as mission running alts of more experience players move out of the NPC corporations and into single player shell corporations.

So it will do nothing to address the "problem" that the Dev's claim they are attempting to address.

Now potential negative effects is that it will cause some people to decide to hell with it and quit. Some will indeed be pushed into player corporations that suck which will sour their in game experiences resulting in more quiting and maybe even some vanishingly smalll number won't know how to to avoid the wardecs and will end up emoragequitting when some sociopathic twit wardecs them to the point where they no longer enjoy the game.

Now it's all fine and dandy to say "oh that's part of the game, carebear tears fuel my hotrod blah blah blah blah."

But it don't pay the bills that keep the servers online. Subscriptions do.

Roland Thorne
Minmatar
Jian Products Engineering Group
Posted - 2009.09.25 18:25:00 - [347]
 

Originally by: Jacob Mei
Originally by: Roland Thorne
Edited by: Roland Thorne on 25/09/2009 17:12:44
Originally by: Jacob Mei


How long until some CCP devs feel that players logging on just to pvp isnt acceptable game play and force everyone to have a "mining qouta", with the ore going into oblivion? Sounds obsurd doesnt it? Well so does this change in its current form and with its current intent.


I'm a bit biased because I am more comfortable in the ways of 0.0, but it is widely known that pvp is the bread and butter of eve, in all forms. Combat, griefing, theft, smack-talk even if you choose to use that, though that may tell people more about yourself then it does them lol. The point is all of this is pvp and it is encouraged in eve. So your example is a little non-nonsensical.



But lets take it from a dev's persective:

A mining qouta would mean more people logging on and thus making better use of their 15 a month.

This will encourage players to have a better appriatation of the ships they destroy.

Whoever would force this change would perfer that players mine and thus impose their views on what they should do in the game.

(If you cant tell my example is meant to be just as obsurd as the current change)


That would be micro-managing on their part because logistics is the business of an alliance or corp. That is not just absurd, it just doesn't make any sense.

Besides all the rhetoric, what ccp has proposed is a tax on npc corps. That is all. My pet peeve is being annoyed by griefers during those times I am in highsec trying to be left alone, but I am in eveonline, and I am forced to deal with those people scanning down my missions. My miner does not even try to drop-can because of the same thing... When I am in highsec I generally want to be left alone but I can't. So, all you complainers, get used to the simple tax. For some reason ccp hasn't reformed the warddec rules and instead levied a simple tax because eve is a sandbox, and making changes to how the money flows is how one makes changes to sandboxes.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.25 18:26:00 - [348]
 

Originally by: Zarlis

I would save your breath complaining about 11%. CCP wants to move the alliances away from relying on moon goo to fund themselves and plan to have them actually do something to upgrade their space.
Of course the concept of "investment of time, money and effort at all levels" left our friends in 0.0 scratching their heads as who precisely was going to be doing this investing, particularly the time and effort part and CCP not wanting to drop their lovely concept for a new expansion had to cast their eye around for this "someone".

And guess what Mr Happily Minding your own Business NPC corp dweller, CCP has decided that someone is YOU. As per CCP Prism X post expect many more "incentive programs" until you are all productive member of Cannon Fodder Space Improvement Corp for your chosen alliance. Very Happy


Hei Cannon Fodder was the first corp I was in, you can't steal the name.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.25 18:47:00 - [349]
 

Originally by: Roland Thorne
I love reading reasonable, intelligent people even if they are wrong. Makes my day.
....
The people who are in npc corps because they don't know any better, or because their friends are there: nows the time for new leaders to start doing some crazy ****, or start some new, cool pve corps.


I concur with the first quote, so I want you to think about your last statement.

Explain to me what change for those griefers.

Can flipping change? no
Ninja salvaging? no
Scams? no
Rremote repping of wartargets? no
Other form of griefing using the wardec immunity granted by NPC corps is affected? no, as far as I know.

Usually those griefers don't run missions so there is no change for them. If the change was made so that all the players in the NPC corps had been pushed maybe the reaction would have been different (depend on the method used), but this change target a specific subset of the NPC corps members and the people targeted are, for the most part, not the griefers you are referring to.

If you can point to me any form of griefing that is affected by this change I would be grateful.

Even more if it is something that can't be resolved moving to a 1 man corp and corp hopping if wardecced.


Jacob Mei
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.25 18:53:00 - [350]
 

Originally by: Roland Thorne

Besides all the rhetoric, what ccp has proposed is a tax on npc corps. That is all.


If that were the case then why did Soundwave feel the need to add all the useless crap about "encouraging" players in NPC corps to move to PC corps in his devblog? Again, it is NOT the tax that people have issue with but the REASONS behind it.

Trying to encourage though penality the actions of players is what has players in an uproar, not the tax itself.

There isnt even any need to read between the lines on this subject, CCP devs have said in no uncertain terms, repeatedly, that this change is meant to get people out of the NPC corps.

Little Feathers
Posted - 2009.09.25 19:15:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: Jacob Mei
Originally by: Roland Thorne

Besides all the rhetoric, what ccp has proposed is a tax on npc corps. That is all.


If that were the case then why did Soundwave feel the need to add all the useless crap about "encouraging" players in NPC corps to move to PC corps in his devblog? Again, it is NOT the tax that people have issue with but the REASONS behind it.

Trying to encourage though penality the actions of players is what has players in an uproar, not the tax itself.

There isnt even any need to read between the lines on this subject, CCP devs have said in no uncertain terms, repeatedly, that this change is meant to get people out of the NPC corps.


And as others have mentioned, this option won't work and will do nothing more than frustrate people who are (a) adverse to player corporations for some personal reason reaching back years of online gaming, (b) dislike the notion of being at war, (c) anti-social, or (d) find joining a player corporation something of an obtuse objective or a roll of the dice they're not willing to bother with.

This tax won't do anything to (a) other than tick him/her off, as he/she will recognize the steady hand of devs from their previous outings in this genre. The (b) folks are still happy they're not at war, as it's inconvenient to their purposes and enjoyment of the game. The (c) just find it bothersome but won't change their perspective. And (d)? Might be willing to give it a chance in a Player Corp but has no clue this tax has been applied to coerce them into doing so. Unless they read this dev blog, of course. [Which isn't really 100% guaranteed.]

So yes, carrot design would be nice. Or as I said earlier, make joining a Player Corporation easier to do, more personal.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.25 19:29:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
I think it's time I step in here and clarify something so that Soundwave can continue the discussion on a constructive level:

/me sighs.

Why couldn't you just leave that excellent piece of trolling alone?... Seriously, I was quite enjoying watching the idiots crawling up the imaginary walls spouting conspiracy theories and other funny idiotery.

Meg Macmuffin
Posted - 2009.09.25 21:56:00 - [353]
 

Edited by: Meg Macmuffin on 26/09/2009 01:37:01
Lots of interesting stuff in this thread, and well put forward. I think lots of people like Eve because of it's scope and freedom. Nobody likes being dictated to or told to play a certain style. People who have a thirst for adventure will venture into deep space, those who prefer a more comfortable environment to while away a few hours won't. So what.

I don't think its that big a deal tbh, but if npc taxation goes ahead, perhaps the system could be modified slightly. Instead of staying in your newbie corp for ever and ever, perhaps have newbie/tutorial only schools that people are turfed out of after a time or so many SPs for instance, to fend for themselves, with a friendly message from Aurora.

Thereafter people could join npc corps with certain taxes and certain benefits available for those taxes, perhaps with different corps offering different packages. Or they could remain in an unaffiliated state to do their own thing (like Althus/Twitchy mentioned in string), with no taxes and no benefits, true freelancers. Or start or join a player corp. Players could join or leave npc corps as they choose, providing faction standings are acceptable, and on leaving return to freelance status, retaining accrued standings but losing tax related privileges while not actively in the corp. This leaves the choice in the hands of the player rather than laying a blanket tax on all those who don't want to be in a player corp for their own reasons. This would also benefit the game in that freelance networks would spring up, adding a whole new dimension to the Eve experience and easing the transition from npc corp to player corp should they choose this path.

Perhaps a modified system something like this could help keep most people happy, and add even more variety to an already beautifully complex game.

Eve ftw

Inferno Styx
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.26 00:16:00 - [354]
 

In the the end of the day there are some simple truths that will never change:

1. EVE Online is the intellectual property of CCP inc.

2. Being their property they have reserved the right to change it in any shape and form they see fit.

3. Although being their customers they are not in anyway required to listen to us. Be happy that devs actually listen and participate in forum discussions. They are not required to tell us any information beforehand, they do it because they care about the game and honestly try to make the game great with every change.

4. Would you rather they do a scaled Tax system where the people who have been in an NPC corp for years lose 80% of their income or would you rather be booted completely and not have any corp to be apart of? Honestly I can think of much harsher changes that would really ruin the game for a solo player. You have to play the hand that your dealt in this game.


Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.26 01:00:00 - [355]
 

Originally by: Inferno Styx
In the the end of the day there are some simple truths that will never change:

1. EVE Online is the intellectual property of CCP inc.

2. Being their property they have reserved the right to change it in any shape and form they see fit.

3. Although being their customers they are not in anyway required to listen to us. Be happy that devs actually listen and participate in forum discussions. They are not required to tell us any information beforehand, they do it because they care about the game and honestly try to make the game great with every change.


CCP don't have to do anything, including listening to players' wishes. Whether ignoring your customers' wishes is wise, however, is an entirely different matter. :) I mean, you present it like they're doing us a favor. In reality, though, they would be foolish to either scoff the hand that feeds them, or totally ignore their customers. It's CCP's game; and I'm sure the devs will develop it according to their global vision. But, at day's end, listening to your customers (and that goes for any business) is not doing THEM a favor, but YOURSELF.

As is stands, I don't think npc corp taxes will have the intended effect. And even if peeps should somehow massively decide to now, grudgingly, join player corps, one could seriously question the added value of such reluctant new corp members. People should join player corps because they're highly motivated to contribute to that corp (other than being prodded with penalties for not doing so). And somehow I don't think player corps are really waiting for an influx of esssentially disinterested folks, either. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And if you DO attempt to make him drink, you'll just wind up with a very upset horse.

Quote:

You have to play the hand that your dealt in this game.


Unlike real life, where you're stuck with the hand you're dealt with, here people can just get up and leave the table. So, I'd say, don't poison the deck!

GizzyBoy
Posted - 2009.09.26 01:58:00 - [356]
 

These changes wont have the intended effect,

If people want to play solo let them do so, I maybe in a pc but 90% of the time i'm the only one logged in or nothings happening or everyones doing there own thing,

Whilst we would like to have more people in our corp we don't want reluctant people, we don't want / cant handle more than a handful of new players at a time because of the attention and advice they require whilst getting to grips with the game, that said we don't want massive amount of people who are only on 1 - 2 hours a week as it makes us appear better war targets than we could ever be.

if you want to do something for carebares let them aggrese those ninja salvage's with out concord showing up. Increase the timeout from 2 hours to 2 days for can flipping to give you an opportunity to punch them in the nuts in an organized manner when they least expect it.

what gets me in this game is there's no morals required, piracy at all costs is mostly encouraged, now if the griefers get there way highsec is going to empty out and they will be left to run missions to make there bread and butter. and have next to no one to build them replacment ships and equipment

Wanda Pulitzer
Posted - 2009.09.26 04:15:00 - [357]
 

It seems to me that if npc corps are so successful CCP should boost the benefits of player owned corps. This is just a nerf of npc corps, don't make a quick fix, or lazy or whatever. I don't hear player owned corps complaining about npc corps. How is this limiting our game play? If I choose this style of game play, why make it more painful to play here?

Woo Mi
Posted - 2009.09.26 06:31:00 - [358]
 

Ok, carebear hereCool
I am a bit of a casual player, so I am in empire doing missions and grinding standings. The basic reason that I am in empire is that it is relatively relaxed, as I don't have to be on my toes at all times for gankers.

The only multiplayer experience I have is doing missions with a few friends sometimes. Which is great.

I do intend eventually dabble in PvP, probably via Eve University or a similar corp.

So, my main reason is not economic, so the 10% tax won't bother me.

What will drive me eventually to lowsec/0.0 is PvP, more multiplayer stuff and other content unique to lowsec/0.0.
What also looks promising in this regard is the possibility mentioned in another blog about developing 0.0 space so it becomes interesting to those wanting to build their own economy.
Both will be a new experience and something I won't be able to do in empire.

However, just levying a tax on people in NPC corps is bogus if the only reason is to force them out of NPC corps. 10% won't matter. 90% might work, but the you're better off just removing empire, which will mean stopping the game. Forcing people into PvP won't work.

On the other hand, if this 10% is just meant to balance something in the economy, what will happen to this tax? Taxation just annoys people, especially when (and it will) is changed every time somebody sees another imperfection in the economy.

Firesh
Etoilles Mortant Ltd.
Solyaris Chtonium
Posted - 2009.09.26 12:33:00 - [359]
 

speaking about taxes: i'd really appreciate it if the concept of taxes would extend to a sales tax as well. That would be a great expansion to the sandbox idea and would give corps a good way to differentiate themselves from others.

And as for CCP not listening, that's bullxxxx - as everyone who has played Star Wars Galaxies knows. Wink

Dakius
Posted - 2009.09.26 20:29:00 - [360]
 

Confirmed that CCP Soundwave fears my posts on this thread. YARRRR!!


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