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C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.22 14:39:00 - [1]
 

"In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."

This certainly rings true now for Non Player Corporations (NPC) within New Eden. CCP Soundwave has produced a new blog explaining how thriving empires on Tranquility require taxation from Capsuleers in order to grow and thrive. Players can also learn how to avoid taxes by joining a militia or forming their own player corporations. Full details are available here.

Aethrwolf
Caldari
Podrratu
Posted - 2009.09.22 14:47:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Aethrwolf on 22/09/2009 14:56:31
epic name for a blog

while I am all for taxes in the npc corps for pretty much the same reasons stated, there are probably better carrots you could give player corps.

IMHO the BEST thing you could do to give player corps a leg up would be for corp standings to affect the various services that have standings requirements/adjustments.
Such as agents availability, refine taxes, and jump clone services..


Internet Knight
The Kobayashi Maru
Posted - 2009.09.22 14:48:00 - [3]
 

I remember there being another devblog (QEN perhaps) regarding corporation taxes several months ago, if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps a link to it is in order?

Nonetheless, I personally think NPC tax levels should be closer to 25%. But that's just me.

While you're looking at NPC taxes, it's unfortunate that the market ... shenaniganimifalizationizers ... are pretty much unaffected by this change?

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.22 14:57:00 - [4]
 

This really didn't need a blog. Everything you said was repeated ad nauseum by anybody with a bit of common sense. Neutral

Still, appreciated.

Also, 11% is too low tbh and suspect it won't really do much. But I also suspect you won't have people to monitor these things, and will probably stay off changing it in the future to avoid more drama. Sad

Netacq
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:02:00 - [5]
 

The Tax is a good news.
But... Twisted Evil

Now the "Empire" should give use something for our standing...
Currently the standing is mostless useless. Now you should adjust this. Cool

Many of use have a very high standing to NPC Corps.
Charge everything in "Empire":
* Local Chat fees (Jita Spammer!)
* Jump Gate fees
* Docking fees
* Slot Fees
* Trading fees
* tbc.

Everything should be influenced by standing.
Boni for new player (SP limited or age limited) should be applied.

The fees should be effected by
* Faction standing
* Corp standing
* Security State of player
* System Security State

Range should be between -50% for "good players" to +200% for "very bad players".


Paddlefoot Aeon
SiN. Corp
Daisho Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:06:00 - [6]
 

I think the taxes are a good idea... perhaps even push them higher. There should be a some conditions, however.

New players start out in NPC corps... and typically (with skillbooks and the like) cash is hard to come by in the starting days. ratting in 0.5-0.7, level 1 and 2 missions, basic hauling and mining, etc. are the primary sources of income. Now I've been in 0.0 for years, where a triple 1.85mil Battleship spawn is a reality, and I fly around in an totally T2 fit and rigged Ishtar. If I wanted to be in an NPC corp, I SHOULD be taxed 20% to 25%.

However, the poor new pilot shouldn't have to pay the same taxes.

So... there are a couple of things I can suggest:

1. Tax based on current wallet income. While good in theory, this will only result in people creating money-holding alts, so its not a very good solution.

2. Tax that increments based on skill points. Start with 0% for those under 1mil SP, then increase to, say, 25% for those over 30 mil SP. This will gently push older, more experienced players into player corps, while not screwing the newbie.

3. Have certain payouts that are non-taxable. Empire rats ( in 0.5 and above) should not be taxed. Level 1 and 2 missions should not be taxed, etc. If an older player wants to rat in empire and run level 2 missions using a 40mil SP character, let them. If they want to run level 4s, they should pay taxes. Again, doesn't screw the noobie, but pushes Empire players to join player corps.

4. Taxable income: Tax insurance payouts on ships larger than a cruiser (for those in NPC corps). After all, you don't need to run level 2 missions in a BC or larger, right?

Just my two ISK... and I know that implementation of these things will be kind of difficult to manage. The mechanism for corp tax already existed; just the modifier for the NPC corps was set to 0%. The changes above would take some coding, but I think they would help make tax more realistic while accomplishing the goal of moving more experienced players towards player corps, while not screwing the newbie.

Cheers,
Paddle


Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:09:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 22/09/2009 15:13:25
It seems you haven't read the multitudes of replies in the other two threads.... Rolling Eyes

How is encouraging players into their own little 1-man corp going to improve social interaction in the game?

That IS going to be the most likely scenario, since doing so is a 5 second job (after training a level 1 skill), whereas a player might not be ready yet for deciding to join a corp, or doesn't want to take the time to do so.
Once that player is out of the NPC corp, his social interaction in EVE drastically reduces, meaning he'll be even less likely to meet people who he'll join up with. Most likely he'll experience EVE as a mainly single-player game. How is THAT a benefit?

You know (or should know at least), that when a new player notice the tax, and asks whether there is a good way to get around it, the 'old player' in (NPC) corp chat will advice him the easiest solution, which is to create a 1-man corp.... The advice will NOT be to join an already established player corp...

This blog contains no explanation about what the deeper problems are, not to mention that I seriously doubt you have thought any further than "Hey... shouldn't NPC corp pay taxes?", "Great idea, mate! Let's do it!"
The guy in the corner who asked "Hey, why are we doing this? What do we intend to achieve by it? What might the possible consequences be?" was ignored....

'So why this change?' points:
#1. Isn't it just as unrealistic that the same services are supplied to player corp for free?
#2. 1-man player corp has exactly the same protections (in real terms), with no cost.
#3. How is it better for EVE that 1000's of 1-man player corp springs up?

Instead of a random change like this, why don't you do some serious analysis of WHY players are in NPC corp (it is NOT because of no taxes), and correct THESE instead!

You may also want to consider NPC corp, wardec's, corp mechanics, high/low/no-sec earnings differential as a whole, come up with a model for how you see them working together, and THEN figure out a solution that takes it all into account!

If you just do this standalone change, then my best guess is that in 6 months you'll have to address the problem of having too many 1-man corp in the game....

NotThe One
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:11:00 - [8]
 

While this idea may annoy some people at first it will make eve a better place for the vast majority. Well done CCP.

CCP Prism X


Gallente
C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:11:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: CCP Prism X on 22/09/2009 15:12:10
Originally by: Aethrwolf
while I am all for taxes in the npc corps for pretty much the same reasons stated, there are probably better carrots you could give player corps.


This change hardly means that no further changes will be made on NPC corps. Wink
It was just a low hanging fruit, involving little to no coding for me, with readily available data, for the designers to work with, so it was a no-brainer as a first choice. We have to be careful when we're messing with the NPE as your first days of income tend to matter. Thankfully L1s have such a horrendous ISK generation that I doubt either reward will be enough to break the tax bracket threshold (..wait.. is that good?!).

For my part, I had wet dreams about making it 100%.. cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity and intending to sell it through RMT. Thankfully they don't let draconian little me design stuff. Laughing

Miraqu
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:18:00 - [10]
 

Thats a very good change. Every player should pay taxes in EvE. Maybe you could free the new players somehow from the taxes. Maybe you could connect that to the double training up to 1,6 Mil SP.

Caldor Mansi
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:22:00 - [11]
 

Awesome. We need more pointless things like 1 man corps in New Eden.


Keep it coming!

Abrazzar
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:32:00 - [12]
 

Oooh. You *must* post the tax income from capsuleers, by empire in the QEN. I think those would be highly interesting numbers. Very Happy

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:35:00 - [13]
 

I think it would be better to have the NPC corp tax based on character age. Say when you hit 1 month you will get Aurora announce nice and clear that the tax man finally has tracked you down and a lot of hurt is heading your way in the shape of taxation. That way new players won't pay tax oblivious to the world outside of NPC corps, nor think it is a default feature.

Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:42:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Thebro Nobrunder on 22/09/2009 15:44:05
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 22/09/2009 15:12:10

For my part, I had wet dreams about making it 100%.. cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity and intending to sell it through RMT. Thankfully they don't let draconian little me design stuff. Laughing


You could make it higher than 11%... really we don't mind.

Actually it would be interesting if players in NPC corps could be "called to service" or some such.

Ohh! What if NPC corps declared war on each other once in a while? Twisted Evil

Mykpilot
Gallente
Stardust Heavy Industries
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:52:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Mykpilot on 22/09/2009 15:54:51
I like the ideas of taxes to reduce the advantage of being in an NPC corp and encouraging people to consider life outside an NPC corp. I feel a flat % on all player is NPC while simple isn't best.

The % based on SP points is good, but I think a % based on the taxable income earned by a player over a given time period is better.

Also, it would be nice if this new ISK sink hole was redistributed somehow, through random prizes or more ISK payout in the next alliance tournament or something along those lines. I mean its not up to the NPC players soley to pay for the NPC infrastructure.

Azia Burgi
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:52:00 - [16]
 

remember its us vets in the NPC corps that teach the n00bs to fly. Also if all NPC corps are getting the tax can you reopen recruitment to all NPC corps, the roleplayers can join a corp that fits in with their world view.

Khalen Veriz
Posted - 2009.09.22 15:56:00 - [17]
 

So instead of making tools to let corps take better control over their corps to allow low SP characters in with less risk, you make a tax that doesn't help the sitution at all. Brilliant.ugh

Arte
The Darkness Within
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:02:00 - [18]
 

A good and seemingly logical move. May I assume it is on all isk generation on the character in corp, including sales as well as the obvious missions?

Can the trigger for tax implemntation be adjusted to 'only Lvl 4's', 'isk generation above 85,000isk' or other some such parameters to deliberately target those that have access to the isk faucets that are out there?

Can standings of a character start to affect which stations they can dock in in space, and not just whether they grab the attention of the local navies? If this is the case then parallels between 0.0 alliances and empire factions be drawn closer and closer.

Mikayla Grey
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:02:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Azia Burgi
remember its us vets in the NPC corps that teach the n00bs to fly.


The "vets" in npc corps dont really know how to fly ships, only how to farm missions.

Agrilad
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:03:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
For my part, I had wet dreams about making it 100%.. cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity and intending to sell it through RMT. Thankfully they don't let draconian little me design stuff. Laughing


Proof that dev's do play their game. Not like we didn't have plenty of proof already.

Personally I like the idea of gradual increase of tax based on sp total of character in npc corp. Max it high at 5 or 10 mil sp's. (3-6 months or more of playing)

Another thought is a monthly fee to be in a npc corp, based on sp. for every million sp's you have, the npc corp taxes you 1 million isk a month. :p Auto drafts your wallet, even into negative. If you leave the npc corp, you lose the negative balance. You go back, you get that hit against your wallet again. ;) Evil, I know.

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:05:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X


For my part, I had wet dreams about making it 100%.. cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity and intending to sell it through RMT.

Azia Burgi
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:06:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Mikayla Grey
Originally by: Azia Burgi
remember its us vets in the NPC corps that teach the n00bs to fly.


The "vets" in npc corps dont really know how to fly ships, only how to farm missions.
You'd be surprised.

Diego Ventura
Gallente
Spatial Anomalies
The Ancients.
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:07:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
Thankfully L1s have such a horrendous ISK generation that I doubt either reward will be enough to break the tax bracket threshold (..wait.. is that good?!).


I think people raising concerns over the impact on new players are overlooking the tax bracket threshold, this won't cripple newbs.

Smertrios
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:09:00 - [24]
 

Good move, about time, not high enough tbh!! Twisted Evil

I have always thought it wrong that in a world as harsh and unforgiving as EVE we still have little safe havens like NPC corps.

This game is not nice, its not easy and its not safe. Everything you do has consequences and that should include hiding in NPC corps avoiding wars. If anyone says they are not ready for a player corp then they should play another game, this is a MMO after all!

Good move and in the right direction!

Also in before the tears!


Mikayla Grey
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:14:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Azia Burgi
Originally by: Mikayla Grey
Originally by: Azia Burgi
remember its us vets in the NPC corps that teach the n00bs to fly.


The "vets" in npc corps dont really know how to fly ships, only how to farm missions.
You'd be surprised.


Seeing as i have alts in npc corps and know what goes on there i am only surprised at how little 50+ mill sp pilots know, and how they try to convince new players that eve consists of sitting in motsu in a mission ship as everywhere else they get blown up in seconds.

Squizz Caphinator
Woopatang
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:15:00 - [26]
 

A long time ago I created a post about NPC corps and how to get people out of them. One of my ideas was to tax people in NPC corps. However, this was based on time.

As a new player, your first million isk can mean a lot to you. Now, you're going to only receive 890,000 of that first million isk! That's 110,000 isk that really, truly, is worth a lot of something to the new player.

I propose this change to your 11% tax: Do not tax the player while they still have their 100% training bonus or they are under 28 days old.

Keep it fair to the youngins, I remember all to well grinding those little itty bit rocks of veldspar just so I could buy my first ships and their mods.

iudex
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:20:00 - [27]
 

Ok so you say you want to bring a higher level of realism into this. Can we then buy or earn tradeable stocks/shares of that corporations, which tax players, and participate in the corporate profits by receiving a part of the dividends ?

Azia Burgi
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:24:00 - [28]
 

You must hang out in rubbish NPC corps, Mikayla. Try [STI] sometime and have a chat with me.

I agree with Squizz, taxing the young ones is not fair by any measure.

Magnum III
Journey On Squad
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:24:00 - [29]
 

I can care less if you tax NPC corps, personally,

But it just makes me think, Why push people out of NPC corps by something negative, instead of pushing them to go out, why not pull them out of NPC corps figuratively with FUN things that make them want to do something else.

Let them leave because of something happy not leave all upset because of JUST taxes.

Making a point here - Go ahead tax NPC corps but give them free ships like in player corps? Because you do so get lots back when your in player corps from being taxed.

TAX NPC corps but don't forget to give reasons to leave because of something fun on the out side of the NPC corp. Use Positive things not so much negative to get people to do stuff in the game.

And PLEASE make some pretty new targeting Recitals already for people NOT in an NPC corp,that will get them to want to go. :) You know, instead of the hideous four white triangles forever blocking the view and just looking ugly if not just burning a screen image. You know, the UI?

Dynus
Posted - 2009.09.22 16:27:00 - [30]
 

There are too many gung-ho people on this topic - I must dissent. Player corps are supposed to provide benefits in exchange for the taxes they charge. What do NPC corps provide? Anything?

Why is NPC corp membership a problem? Is it because you can't declare war on their members? Add a feature to allow war decs on individuals in NPC corps, or end up in small, abandoned player corps. Is it because you want people to have more multiplayer interaction? As a previous poster pointed out - that is not the effect this will have. People will just form one man corps.

CCP has a weirdly schizophrenic attitude toward the universe they have created. On the one hand they want it to be a sandbox where people can do what they want. On the other hand they want to control people's behavior and get them to play the game in the proper way (roaming null sec raiders, so far as I can tell).

Fact: lots of player corps suck. Many players don't want to deal with petty tyrants, ventrilo, and API keys. The NPC corps are perfect for casual players - and you can get a modicum of player interaction. Actually, I would love to go back to my old noob NPC corp - the corp chat was always very entertaining. Alas, there is no way to ever return.

CCP, check your logs for what matters - how many subscribers log on more than four times a week? Those are the only players you should be pushing into player corps.


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