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Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2009.09.20 11:15:00 - [211]
 

Isn't leaving a corp repeatedly to avoid a wardec a punishable offense?

Coch Draig
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.09.20 11:18:00 - [212]
 

If you mission run:

Arrow Create Corp
Arrow Set tax at 0%
Arrow Proceed with single player activities

If you do anything else (mining, trading etc):

Arrow Stay where you are!

HOPE THIS VERY VERY SIMPLE SOLUTION HELPS EVERYONE. NOW MOVE ALONG PLEASE, THANK YOU.

Droog 1
Posted - 2009.09.20 11:24:00 - [213]
 

Edited by: Droog 1 on 20/09/2009 11:29:29
This is easily the stupidest idea ever. LaughingLaughing

On the plus side it will revitalise solo pvp as there will be 1000's of 1 man corps to grief.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.20 11:29:00 - [214]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 20/09/2009 11:31:14
Originally by: Malcanis
As for not WANTING to PVP... that tired old argument again. OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP.

Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his?

I wasn't saying that I thought so Laughing
....just that a very large portion of CCP's customers is of that opinion, and that is a fact CCP WILL have to take into account!

They simply can't annoy that large a number of players too much. Making them feel forced to do something they don't want, or making them feel penalised is NOT how an MMO will thrive... Most people take it very negatively to be treated as a second-rate customer...

Say CCP has a profit margin of 10% (which would be pretty high), that means that 90% of their customers pay for CCP's expenses, and 10% pays for profit. This of.c. means that even a small number of players getting annoyed enough to quit will have a disproportionate effect on CCP's finances and ability to invest.

This is why I suggest changing the income dynamics between high-sec and 0.0/low-sec instead, even if this include a nerf to L4 mission income. That way people in NPC corp might complain over that, but they'll not be able to claim they're penalised for not wanting to PvP. This would likely go down far better than an arbitrary NPC corp tax, since it would be directly tied to something players know and understand, that 0.0 and low-sec carries dangers, and thus higher rewards seem logical.
There'd be no need to tinker with NPC corp taxes, and people wanting to play EVE free of PvP could do so with a WELL-EXPLAINED reason for why their income is lower than the people accepting the PvP 'risk'.
Originally by: Drykor
Isn't leaving a corp repeatedly to avoid a wardec a punishable offense?

Nope! The wardec is considered to be against the corp, not the individual player!
Constantly wardec'ing corp as a specific player enters it MIGHT be considered harassment though....

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2009.09.20 11:31:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Drykor
Isn't leaving a corp repeatedly to avoid a wardec a punishable offense?
if repeatedly, then yes.

first hop, not punishable, but second hop raises some flags.

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.20 11:36:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Kai Lae on 20/09/2009 11:37:32
Originally by: Lotus Sutra
Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 20/09/2009 02:09:56
I am a mission runner. I have 4 active accounts and 2 inactive accounts. I activate my two inactive accounts. I create characters on all my accounts and fill up all the slots. Train my alt characters with corp management. Create a corp with the alt characters. Jump from the npc corp into my alt characters player corp where the tax is 0%.

You war dec my corp. I have no roles so I leave it and join another one of my alt corps.
You war dec them I leave it and join another one of my alt corp.
You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps.
You war dec it I leave it and join another one of my alt corps.

I can do this upto 18 times with my current accounts. If I run out of alt corps that don't have a war against them I leave and create one with this character or stay in an NPC corp for a day or two till you get tired of waging war on a corp of 1 that gives you no targets and costs you isk and me nothing but a few minutes of my time to make the corp, train the character for a few minutes, spend a few thousand isk or so that I can make back in an hour of mission running.

The net result is you lose millions of isk, I lose nothing but a few minutes of time. I win.Laughing


Except the minor matter that switching corps to avoid wardecs is considered by CCP to be an exploit, thus exposing you to having your accounts warned, or potentially banned after repeat offenses.

Personally I don't care either way, but before you advise people to do things of this nature you should be sure that it's allowed.

Edit: Sniped by grimpak Mad

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.20 11:42:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: Kerfira

Nope! The wardec is considered to be against the corp, not the individual player!
Constantly wardec'ing corp as a specific player enters it MIGHT be considered harassment though....


Actually it is. The idea is that the players should not be able to use game mechanics (changing corps) to avoid wardecs. On the other hand, repeatedly wardecing an individual in whatever corp that he is in is not considered exploitative or harassment. I recall doing this to a corp thief in 2005 or so. He complained to CCP, CCP's response was basically "well next time don't steal from the vindictive".


Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.20 11:54:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 20/09/2009 12:04:16
Originally by: Kai Lae
Originally by: Kerfira

Nope! The wardec is considered to be against the corp, not the individual player!
Constantly wardec'ing corp as a specific player enters it MIGHT be considered harassment though....

Actually it is. The idea is that the players should not be able to use game mechanics (changing corps) to avoid wardecs. On the other hand, repeatedly wardecing an individual in whatever corp that he is in is not considered exploitative or harassment. I recall doing this to a corp thief in 2005 or so. He complained to CCP, CCP's response was basically "well next time don't steal from the vindictive".

Please look at this then....
Originally by: GM Nythanos
Hello,

For #1, Closing a corporation and opening a new one with the same members is allowed, and the people who declared war on your now closed corporation can declare a new war on your new corporation if they choose to do so.

For #2, Using alt corps to increase the cost of wars against your corporation or alliance is prohibited.

To help clarify this, there are restrictions with regards to joining and leaving corporation, such as mentioned here:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2317&tid=1

This is an official GM ruling posted on EO less than 3 months ago.....

Ok, it does speak about closing a corp and opening another one and not directly about hopping between corp, but this is how 1-man corp WOULD do it since you can do that in 5 seconds (at a minor ISK cost).

For harassment, it requires that you're an innocent victim of it, ie. hasn't done anything directly against the person who is after you.... Clearly a corp thief is not 'innocent' Laughing
So especially if a 50m SP character keeps wardec'ing a 5m noob without such reason, that'll most likely be considered harassment....

Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.20 12:06:00 - [219]
 

I would want to get that confirmed. It seems illogical that CCP are going to penalize people in NPC corps (due to their wardec immunity) but make it possible for players to basically evade wardecs by changing corporations at will.

One thing I've learned over the years is that if it's not a senior GM or above telling you the information, it's basically totally useless.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.20 12:14:00 - [220]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 20/09/2009 12:29:38
Originally by: Kai Lae
I would want to get that confirmed. It seems illogical that CCP are going to penalize people in NPC corps (due to their wardec immunity) but make it possible for players to basically evade wardecs by changing corporations at will.

And since when has CCP stopped doing illogical things? Laughing

Eris says 'nudge' people, and no changes in wardec mechanics. That to me says they're going about this VERY softly-softly to avoid upsetting non-PvP players too much.

It's pretty good business practice to KEEP the players who like to play alone and not PvP.... They probably only intend this as a 'nudge' for the undecided, and haven't considered that a lot of players actually LIKE being in a noob corp with plenty of people to talk to and no obligations or extra danger....
Originally by: Kai Lae
One thing I've learned over the years is that if it's not a senior GM or above telling you the information, it's basically totally useless.

True, but this was preceded by this post from a Dev:
Originally by: CCP Navigator
Hello all,

I just want to pop in and say that someone from Customer Support will be along shortly to clarify this matter in detail for you all. Replies to an earlier post have been deleted so as not confuse others.

Thank you.

I think that pretty much makes it an official ruling.... Especially since this exchange was followed by a previous post (since deleted, but almost identical) which indicates that the issue was actually discussed by the GM's.

The previous post was (taken from Eve-Search):
Originally by: GM Horse
Players are free to join, leave, form and disband any corporation they please at any point in time. Joining or leaving a corporation for any purpose is never considered an exploit.

Creating alt corporations with the express intent of declaring war on your main corporation to raise the war fee is not considered an exploit.

...which also seems to cover leaving a corp during war...

CCP has over the last years taken to limiting the amount of things they declare exploits, simply to limit the petitions and avoid arbitrary rulings. These days, it seem like only EXTREME exploits are deemed as such, and everything else is deemed working as implemented in the game code.

Coch Draig
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2009.09.20 12:18:00 - [221]
 

What are the chances of getting wardecced? If all these single player mission runners so to speak created individual corps there would be so many of them that the chances of getting decced really would be just bad luck.

I would probably stay in this NPC corp myself as it's only a trader so no taxes for me Razz

I keep reading this comment when new things arrive in eve so here it is...... "adapt or die".

TimMc
Brutal Deliverance
Gypsy Band
Posted - 2009.09.20 12:21:00 - [222]
 

I forsee alot of 0% taxed alt corps, and alot of tears on patchday. Twisted Evil

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2009.09.20 12:26:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Kerfira

I think that pretty much makes it an official ruling....


actually, if u dig a bit further back in time you will also find a dev post stating that its a exploit to jump corps/disband corps over and over Wink

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.20 12:29:00 - [224]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 20/09/2009 12:33:28
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: Kerfira

I think that pretty much makes it an official ruling....


actually, if u dig a bit further back in time you will also find a dev post stating that its a exploit to jump corps/disband corps over and over Wink

Newer ruling trumps older ruling Laughing

Besides, this one actually seems to have been discussed by the GM's, given the preceding posts by other CCP staff.....

Even if they did change a ruling, they did so consistently. They have been doing this for a while, so they could reduce the load on their petition staff. Basically these days, if allowed by game mechanics it's not an exploit, unless it is really extreme!

Tbh, the best thing would be CCP maintaining a list of official rulings. That way there wouldn't be any doubts!

Varilinda
Posted - 2009.09.20 13:14:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: TimMc
I forsee alot of 0% taxed alt corps, and alot of tears on patchday. Twisted Evil


I agree....from the piwates that is. But then their rivers of tears flood daily anyway so I guess that wont be much of a difference from normal life in EvE.

Cre'tal
Posted - 2009.09.20 14:27:00 - [226]
 

OK, I stopped reading after the first page, and this is awfully late in the thread, let me see if I understand this correctly:

1) Current NPC corp tax is 10%.
2) CCP wants to raise it to a whopping 11% to "punish" the carebears
3) People are whining.

Did I seriously get that right? Hell, I went from a corp with a 20% tax to one with a 10% tax, and I barely noticed. Are people really getting bent about a 1% increase? I think the effect on the standard carebear, or even the ISK farmer for that matter would be nigh un-noticeable.

Amerilia
Posted - 2009.09.20 14:28:00 - [227]
 

no its 0% now

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.20 14:29:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: Cre'tal
let me see if I understand this correctly:

1) Current NPC corp tax is 10%.
2) CCP wants to raise it to a whopping 11% to "punish" the carebears
3) People are whining.
#1 is incorrect — NPC corp tax is currently 0% — but other than that, yes.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.20 14:32:00 - [229]
 

No you didnt. Current npc corp tax is 0%.

Cre'tal
Posted - 2009.09.20 14:34:00 - [230]
 

Ah thank you. It's been a long while since I've been in an NPC corp, and I was always under the assumption that it was a 10% tax. Well, then, good show, CCP. Adding a NPC tax is a great idea AFAIC.

WhiteGhostBear
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2009.09.20 14:39:00 - [231]
 

11%? Many player corps are at 10%, if not 5%. A few extra % for war dec immunity, no politics, etc.? Not a bad price to pay.

Too bad this punishes new players; would rather have this start at 0%, then climb in 5% increments every month up to, say, a 25% tax, or more.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.20 14:41:00 - [232]
 

Edited by: Julian Lynq on 20/09/2009 14:41:51
Originally by: Cre'tal
Ah thank you. It's been a long while since I've been in an NPC corp, and I was always under the assumption that it was a 10% tax. Well, then, good show, CCP. Adding a NPC tax is a great idea AFAIC.


If youd take the time to properly read the thread youd maybe notice why actually its not such a great idea.

By the way is there a reason you post in all green text ?

Gonada
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.20 14:46:00 - [233]
 

the tears are awsome.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.20 14:46:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
If youd take the time to properly read the thread youd maybe notice why actually its not such a great idea.
If you took the time to read the thread, you'd notice that it is, and that many of those who claim otherwise have no idea how corp taxes in EVE work… Wink

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.20 14:50:00 - [235]
 

How taxes work does not matter.

It is not a good idea, because it will not achieve the effect the devs are hoping for.

People will make 1 man corporations. Many of them. They get wardecc, they make a new one. No gain for you fail-pvpers at all.

Shall Ccp then later decide to increase corporation creation tax or restrict 1 man corporations somehow, people will just pay the stupid 11% tax - a big chunk however will propably also quit the game. Again no gain for the fail-pvpers.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.20 14:58:00 - [236]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 20/09/2009 15:00:36
Originally by: Julian Lynq
How taxes work does not matter.

It is not a good idea, because it will not achieve the effect the devs are hoping for.
And what effect is that?
Quote:
People will make 1 man corporations. Many of them. They get wardecc, they make a new one. No gain for you fail-pvpers at all.
So what's the problem? And how do you measure "gain"?

Oh and:
Quote:
How taxes work does not matter.
Yes it does, because it's the ignorance about the effect of taxes that largely drives the assumption that people will flee to 1-man corps.

Andra Zeit
Posted - 2009.09.20 14:58:00 - [237]
 

If CCP does not like people in NPC Corps, they can cancel their subcritions. After this, all players are in player corps, the developers are happy and the sun is shining so bride.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.20 15:02:00 - [238]
 

Edited by: Julian Lynq on 20/09/2009 15:02:29
Originally by: Tippia
And what effect is that?



Again, properly read the thread:

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.20 15:05:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Tippia
And what effect is that?

Again, properly read the thread:
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation

So you're saying that it will actually work exactly the way CCP is hoping to.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.20 15:08:00 - [240]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Tippia
And what effect is that?

Again, properly read the thread:
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia

It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation

So you're saying that it will actually work exactly the way CCP is hoping to.


Do you have some reading diability ?
Originally by: Julian Lynq

It is not a good idea, because it will not achieve the effect the devs are hoping for.



Originally by: Tippia
And what effect is that?



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