open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked New 11% Tax for all NPC Corps
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 ... : last (39)

Author Topic

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.19 23:14:00 - [121]
 

Tbh, after considering this a bit, I'd rather see the tax ramp up:

0% first 30 days
15% after 30 days
30% after 60 days

Its not so much protection against newbs, because everybody has it pretty damn easy when it comes to making money. 11% off a crapton makes it trivial, because there is enough left to keep advancing easily. Its more so that people can recieve evemails when the tax changes, to become aware of the penalty. A tax from the get-go doesn't mean much because many people won't even know its there, and will become accustomed to the amount of money they're pulling to feel like they're losing anything.

A very visible drop in profits, and a written reminder works better as a deterrent against npc squatting and avoids the stigma of taxing newbs.

And on a slightly related note, but since EVE has regional and constellation gates now, I'd like to see toll fees based on tonnage and standings. CCP discussed this ages ago, and I think its a good way to limit npc capital logistics and add some variety to trade. The threshold might be such that it only applies to Orcas and Freighters, and perhaps Battleship pilots moving around in places where the faction does not like them (FW pilots in enemy high sec).

The fees should be dynamic based on gate traffic (jumps per day), so that traders going the long way can save a bit of money and perhaps obtain higher margins than someone dumping a load of T2 from Jita to Amarr directly. In addition, region-region links of the same faction should be cheaper than faction borders. Amarr-Caldari should also be cheaper than going from Caldari-Gallente, for RP reasons.

Getting some corp standings would lower the toll fees, such that perhaps you pay nothing on Orca travel within region (constellation gates). And afk-travel wouldn't be affected, since a gate can simply deny jump if you lack the money. Lastly, NPC corps would have a much higher toll fee than player corps to discourage their use by what are obviously non-newb usage scenarios.

Once you have the mechanic in place and it works great in this situation, you can find neat expansion opportunities in FW system ping-pong.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.19 23:16:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas
Most of of the people I know use npccorped alts to pay for there PvP mains PvP.

all this works out to is a 11% increase in the amount of griding we have to do to pay for our pvp.

but yet CCP wants more pvp?



It's almost as if they're following through with their stated objective to get more people in to 0.0 by making it more profitable for 0.0 players to make their ISK in... 0.0 - rather than with untouchable NPC mission alts.

Crazy, I know.

See the bitter tears of the Minor Threat dude above as an explicit example.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.19 23:27:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Wescombe
I dont know if anyone has made any comments like mine, i've read most of the posts but will say it anyway.

Whilst I'm not pleased about the possible change and 11% isnt a big difference between most normal corps there is something that bothers me.

At the moment I really enjoy playing the game when I have the time and this is the problem, time! I'm currently working away a lot and I dont have time to really do anything other than mission running. I'm not in a player corp and I personally dont believe its fair to be in a player corp (especially a new one) when I will hardly be around. How would most of you feel about someone joining and not playing often?

At the moment if I have a free weekend I could maybe earn a good 100-250mil isk, so yes when im not playing a lot I would feel annoyed by losing 11-27mil for a npc corp where the funds were not actually be used for something.

My point is that its not that I dont want to join a player corp but other real life issues force me not to, Im already paying for a game I dont play much, why should I get taxed when I do play it.


To pay for all that protection you're getting. Protection costs money.

Ask any made guy....

Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
Posted - 2009.09.19 23:29:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 19/09/2009 23:34:23
A corp tax of 11% will barely effect my income. If it does start to have an effect I will simply create several alts, train corp management and drop myself into one of them. Tax 0%. If the corp gets war decced, I'll drop corp, switch to another alts corp and keep on doing what I do. I can easily make 12 player corps (18 if I decide to reactivate 2 other accounts) with 0% tax and cycle through them as needed to avoid having to deal with people who would find it fun to attack a one or two man corp for lawls.

The corps would continue to exist, so technically I wouldn't be closing a corp to avoid a war dec, because the corp would still be war decced, but there would be nobody there for the attacker to fight except an offline character that makes them lose isk while I continue doing what I did before.

Yeah CCP, this change will not have any effect at all for those of us with no desire to PvP. It will just cost the PvP bears more isk on failed war deccs of useless front corps.

Very well thought out plan CCP.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.19 23:33:00 - [125]
 

Next up: CCP to fix the wardec system...

Aurorae Andromedae
Posted - 2009.09.19 23:38:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Aurorae Andromedae on 19/09/2009 23:38:35
Hahaha!

Now the PVP pilots, 0.0 and pirates are getting nerf bat from CCP...

Stop lying to yourselfs, you all have mission alts and now you're getting 11% off your farming income. I say hahaha.

EDIT: It's like shooting yourself into head...

Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
Posted - 2009.09.19 23:43:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 19/09/2009 23:45:59
Originally by: Malcanis
Next up: CCP to fix the wardec system...


They would have to tie corps to player accounts then. I have 4 active and 2 inactive accounts. If one character on one account got war decced they would need to tie all the accounts together so that another character tied to those accounts couldn't leave a corp that was war decced. They would then need to be able to PROVE that these accounts were all played by me, and not simply paid for by me for someone else to play which for one account I have is the actual case.

There is no way they will be able to prevent corp hopping by characters short of removing a players ability to leave a corp that is at war. If they do that, then they should also make it so corps can't get new members when they are at war either. So if your corp is at war, you can't leave it. Attacker and attackee both would be stuck in their corps until the war is over.

CCP won't be able to force people to do pew pew like they seem to think they will be able to, all they will be able to do is force griefewrs to lose more money, and waste more time. Laughing

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.19 23:47:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 19/09/2009 23:48:35
Originally by: Malcanis
It's almost as if they're following through with their stated objective to get more people in to 0.0 by making it more profitable for 0.0 players to make their ISK in... 0.0 - rather than with untouchable NPC mission alts.

Except that the mission alts will STILL be untouchable (and not taxed), due to the 24-hour wardec rule and insta-disband of 1-man corp.... Ok, they'll have to pay ~1.6m ISK per new corp, but that'll not happen all that often after people get tired of paying 2m ISK to wardec a 1-man corp that'll just be disbanded....
Originally by: Malcanis (#125)
Next up: CCP to fix the wardec system...

...doesn't seem like it.....
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia (#70)
- We have no plans at the moment to change wardecs


Claudia Voltaire
Posted - 2009.09.19 23:49:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae
Edited by: Aurorae Andromedae on 19/09/2009 23:38:35
Hahaha!

Now the PVP pilots, 0.0 and pirates are getting nerf bat from CCP...

Stop lying to yourselfs, you all have mission alts and now you're getting 11% off your farming income. I say hahaha.

EDIT: It's like shooting yourself into head...



gota be drunk to voice an opinion on an eve-o subject in game, but what you know, there's that:

Trolls 1-0, as above 0-1, ccp 0-0 -1

more gtc's +2


Aurorae Andromedae
Posted - 2009.09.19 23:52:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Claudia Voltaire
Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae
Edited by: Aurorae Andromedae on 19/09/2009 23:38:35
Hahaha!

Now the PVP pilots, 0.0 and pirates are getting nerf bat from CCP...

Stop lying to yourselfs, you all have mission alts and now you're getting 11% off your farming income. I say hahaha.

EDIT: It's like shooting yourself into head...



gota be drunk to voice an opinion on an eve-o subject in game, but what you know, there's that:

Trolls 1-0, as above 0-1, ccp 0-0 -1

more gtc's +2


That's ain't troll, it's the truth. I am part of 0.0 alliance, I have mission alt, like nearly all of my corp mates do. What should I pick... Stable 40 M ISK income without interruptions of anykind or ratting in 0.0 with 60 mil per hour with cloaker in the system.... Damn hard to pick... Laughing

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:00:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: DigitalCommunist
A very visible drop in profits, and a written reminder works better as a deterrent against npc squatting and avoids the stigma of taxing newbs.


You folks need to remember that there's more ways to PvP than to go "pew-pew lazors!!!"

NPC corps let us avoid the lame wanna-be pirates while we do so.

Want to encourage player corps? Then discourage the wardecs from folks who can't cut it in lowsec/0.0 and need neutral RR to take down an industrial.

Ivanna Nuke
Gallente
Holders Of The Cowbell
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:01:00 - [132]
 

*Wades in tears*Twisted Evil

You should also permit NPC corp members to attack other NPC corp membersTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

Claudia Voltaire
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:05:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae
it's the truth.


Ohh for the grace of satire, cost you more though.

I don't play you're game, but it's not to know, ccp know they have you as crack addicts, you'll pay, you'll buy more gtc's to fill their boots to compensate.

Ofc any opinion you might have, or any of the like will be shot down in flames by the 1-0 guys... the forum t's:)

Aurorae Andromedae
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:10:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Claudia Voltaire
Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae
it's the truth.


Ohh for the grace of satire, cost you more though.

I don't play you're game, but it's not to know, ccp know they have you as crack addicts, you'll pay, you'll buy more gtc's to fill their boots to compensate.

Ofc any opinion you might have, or any of the like will be shot down in flames by the 1-0 guys... the forum t's:)
Says a forum alt who has been in NPC corporation for 4 years 5 months AND 27 days.... Laughing Laughing Laughing

Jernau Riggs
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:13:00 - [135]
 

While i agree that npc corps should be taxed, CCP really have no idea how these things work in real life.

You need to follow what real life governments do, Introduce the tax as a silly low level so no one would be mad enough to argue with say 2%, and then when people get used to paying it knock it up to 5% then 7% etc etc

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:17:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Steve Thomas
Most of of the people I know use npccorped alts to pay for there PvP mains PvP.

all this works out to is a 11% increase in the amount of griding we have to do to pay for our pvp.

but yet CCP wants more pvp?



It's almost as if they're following through with their stated objective to get more people in to 0.0 by making it more profitable for 0.0 players to make their ISK in... 0.0 - rather than with untouchable NPC mission alts.
This will only hold true if the proposed infrastucture improvement mechanics for dominion are able to let the average 0.0 joe make a buck off the territory and not let the 0.1% of the guys with the corp rights to everything walk away with 99.9999999% of the alliances profits like it currently is. All I see this doing is making pretty much all the mission running alts for 0.0 guys make a one man corp. What will this do? It will be an endless sea of a zillion horribly named nub corps that whilst able to be wardecced will just dissapear for the week of hostilities until the aggressor gets fed up. Plus the vast omg huge increase in one man corps will make it effectively impossible to have any effect from wardecs as it would be like trying to kill an ant colony one tiny ant at a time with a week between killings but full cost for every ant killed. Before this you could just suicide an offending induvidual for far less than the cost of a soon to be fruitless wardec. The problem of 'invulnerable' empire mission runners just got worse tbh if you think it through. Wink

Claudia Voltaire
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:17:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae
Originally by: Claudia Voltaire
Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae
it's the truth.


Ohh for the grace of satire, cost you more though.

I don't play you're game, but it's not to know, ccp know they have you as crack addicts, you'll pay, you'll buy more gtc's to fill their boots to compensate.

Ofc any opinion you might have, or any of the like will be shot down in flames by the 1-0 guys... the forum t's:)
Says a forum alt who has been in NPC corporation for 4 years 5 months AND 27 days.... Laughing Laughing Laughing



might be pie'ied there chap, but as right as you were i couldn't resist, the trolls are bigging nobody, most saying nothing are counting the cost.

Jumped in only because if there's not a dry eye in the house tonight, you called it:o

Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Not Found.
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:24:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Sky Marshal on 20/09/2009 00:23:53

This is a stupid change.

Because this will just contentate some emo-morons who want force everyone to play in a certain way.

So to avoid war AND tax, we just have to create more 1-Man Corps, as I doubt that there is many corporations who will try to wardec most of them actually in the game.

Aurorae Andromedae
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:26:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Steve Thomas
Most of of the people I know use npccorped alts to pay for there PvP mains PvP.

all this works out to is a 11% increase in the amount of griding we have to do to pay for our pvp.

but yet CCP wants more pvp?



It's almost as if they're following through with their stated objective to get more people in to 0.0 by making it more profitable for 0.0 players to make their ISK in... 0.0 - rather than with untouchable NPC mission alts.
This will only hold true if the proposed infrastucture improvement mechanics for dominion are able to let the average 0.0 joe make a buck off the territory and not let the 0.1% of the guys with the corp rights to everything walk away with 99.9999999% of the alliances profits like it currently is. All I see this doing is making pretty much all the mission running alts for 0.0 guys make a one man corp. What will this do? It will be an endless sea of a zillion horribly named nub corps that whilst able to be wardecced will just dissapear for the week of hostilities until the aggressor gets fed up. Plus the vast omg huge increase in one man corps will make it effectively impossible to have any effect from wardecs as it would be like trying to kill an ant colony one tiny ant at a time with a week between killings but full cost for every ant killed. Before this you could just suicide an offending induvidual for far less than the cost of a soon to be fruitless wardec. The problem of 'invulnerable' empire mission runners just got worse tbh if you think it through. Wink
This................

Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:30:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Zeba on 20/09/2009 00:36:09
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basisWink
What about when you rat or mission in places that have no concord protection? Will you still have to pay the tax? Also what about fw players in the npc fw corps? They are doing exactly what a normal player run fw corp does with the attendant risks. Will there be a tax for them too?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:33:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Lotus Sutra
Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 19/09/2009 23:45:59
Originally by: Malcanis
Next up: CCP to fix the wardec system...


They would have to tie corps to player accounts then. I have 4 active and 2 inactive accounts. If one character on one account got war decced they would need to tie all the accounts together so that another character tied to those accounts couldn't leave a corp that was war decced. They would then need to be able to PROVE that these accounts were all played by me, and not simply paid for by me for someone else to play which for one account I have is the actual case.

There is no way they will be able to prevent corp hopping by characters short of removing a players ability to leave a corp that is at war. If they do that, then they should also make it so corps can't get new members when they are at war either. So if your corp is at war, you can't leave it. Attacker and attackee both would be stuck in their corps until the war is over.

CCP won't be able to force people to do pew pew like they seem to think they will be able to, all they will be able to do is force griefewrs to lose more money, and waste more time. Laughing


1 simple way: a wardec follows a player that leaves a corp just like it follows a corp that leaves an alliance.

Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:38:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Lotus Sutra
Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 19/09/2009 23:45:59
Originally by: Malcanis
Next up: CCP to fix the wardec system...


They would have to tie corps to player accounts then. I have 4 active and 2 inactive accounts. If one character on one account got war decced they would need to tie all the accounts together so that another character tied to those accounts couldn't leave a corp that was war decced. They would then need to be able to PROVE that these accounts were all played by me, and not simply paid for by me for someone else to play which for one account I have is the actual case.

There is no way they will be able to prevent corp hopping by characters short of removing a players ability to leave a corp that is at war. If they do that, then they should also make it so corps can't get new members when they are at war either. So if your corp is at war, you can't leave it. Attacker and attackee both would be stuck in their corps until the war is over.

CCP won't be able to force people to do pew pew like they seem to think they will be able to, all they will be able to do is force griefewrs to lose more money, and waste more time. Laughing


1 simple way: a wardec follows a player that leaves a corp just like it follows a corp that leaves an alliance.


That would be real dumb actually. I make a two man corp and smack talk some tard griefer corp into war deccing me. I then leave the corp (The CEO stays in it) and join a 100 man corp. The war dec follows me to the new corp where suddenly they are at war with a tard griefer corp.

bright thinking. You just enabled free war decs.


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:39:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Steve Thomas
Most of of the people I know use npccorped alts to pay for there PvP mains PvP.

all this works out to is a 11% increase in the amount of griding we have to do to pay for our pvp.

but yet CCP wants more pvp?



It's almost as if they're following through with their stated objective to get more people in to 0.0 by making it more profitable for 0.0 players to make their ISK in... 0.0 - rather than with untouchable NPC mission alts.
This will only hold true if the proposed infrastucture improvement mechanics for dominion are able to let the average 0.0 joe make a buck off the territory and not let the 0.1% of the guys with the corp rights to everything walk away with 99.9999999% of the alliances profits like it currently is. All I see this doing is making pretty much all the mission running alts for 0.0 guys make a one man corp. What will this do? It will be an endless sea of a zillion horribly named nub corps that whilst able to be wardecced will just dissapear for the week of hostilities until the aggressor gets fed up. Plus the vast omg huge increase in one man corps will make it effectively impossible to have any effect from wardecs as it would be like trying to kill an ant colony one tiny ant at a time with a week between killings but full cost for every ant killed. Before this you could just suicide an offending induvidual for far less than the cost of a soon to be fruitless wardec. The problem of 'invulnerable' empire mission runners just got worse tbh if you think it through. Wink


In a way you're right, of course, but you're missing the key difference between "encourage" and "force".

Still, if you want to argue for a flat 11% tax on all empire transactions, go for it. At least that would mimic RL tax structures.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:43:00 - [144]
 

"I want to play how I want. How dare you take my NPC corp away from me. My e-wallet backbone. I don't want to be the target of grief war-decs"

Pay the tax then.

"What? Why should I have to pay for the advantage I have?"



I can see why sympathy is a little thin on the ground.
The sandbox arguement is absolutely the worst btw, because the people in NPC corps are gaining an advantage without effort, and then complaining it may now come with a cost. A real sandbox enviroment wouldn't give you the safety net of an NPC corp at all.

Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:44:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

In a way you're right, of course, but you're missing the key difference between "encourage" and "force".

Still, if you want to argue for a flat 11% tax on all empire transactions, go for it. At least that would mimic RL tax structures.


Oh I personally think the tax is fine, but I also think it isn't going to have the effect ccp thinks it will, and gave a scenario where I could make it work to my advantage and cost griefers isk at virtually no cost to myself.

The mechanics behind declaring war on a corp are so flawed that a total re-write would be required to fix them and I don't think CCP has the time or desire to do that.

*fake edit* I hate the 5 minute posting delay while at the same time love it. But right now I hate it damnit!

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:44:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Lotus Sutra
Originally by: Malcanis

1 simple way: a wardec follows a player that leaves a corp just like it follows a corp that leaves an alliance.


That would be real dumb actually. I make a two man corp and smack talk some tard griefer corp into war deccing me. I then leave the corp (The CEO stays in it) and join a 100 man corp. The war dec follows me to the new corp where suddenly they are at war with a tard griefer corp.

bright thinking. You just enabled free war decs.




I guess I missed the step where the 100-man corp is forced to accept your smack-talking ass into their organisation. Wardecs are already a matter of public record, but since I know that your average corp CEO has enough to worry about already, I suggest that a simple pop-up message along the lines of "Lotus Sutra is currently at war with GRIEFCROP. If you accept her in to your corporation you will be at war with GRIEFCORP for 22 hours" would obviate that problem.

Thaylon Sen
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:49:00 - [147]
 

On one hand I embrace this idea, the real eve is in player corps. On the other hand... seems to me everyone forgets it's a game, do we really need to be 'taxing' casual gamers?

Rellik B00n
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:50:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Andra Zeit
..., You have to go to Domain"


lol!

OMG NOT DOMAIN! /holds face

Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
Posted - 2009.09.20 00:50:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 20/09/2009 00:53:12
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Lotus Sutra
Originally by: Malcanis

1 simple way: a wardec follows a player that leaves a corp just like it follows a corp that leaves an alliance.


That would be real dumb actually. I make a two man corp and smack talk some tard griefer corp into war deccing me. I then leave the corp (The CEO stays in it) and join a 100 man corp. The war dec follows me to the new corp where suddenly they are at war with a tard griefer corp.

bright thinking. You just enabled free war decs.




I guess I missed the step where the 100-man corp is forced to accept your smack-talking ass into their organisation. Wardecs are already a matter of public record, but since I know that your average corp CEO has enough to worry about already, I suggest that a simple pop-up message along the lines of "Lotus Sutra is currently at war with GRIEFCROP. If you accept her in to your corporation you will be at war with GRIEFCORP for 22 hours" would obviate that problem.


Exactly my point. I can see corps using that type of mechanic to let them have free pew pew rights in high sec. That type of mechanic would quickly get abused by alliances like goonswarm. If I can see how to use it to a griefer corps disadvantage, i'm sure they would see how to use it to their advantage very quickly.

I think a better mechanic would be to force players that are in a corp that is at war, to remain in that corp for a minimum of 24 hours AFTER the war has begun before they can leave. So to leave a corp that has had a war declared on them, 48 hours from the time the war was declared will have to pass before they can leave. or to make the incentive to have a real corp rather than a shell corp, make it so that three or four days have to pass before they can leave, or a full week, the duration of one cycle of a war dec.

The only way to get around that would be to start the exit process before the war was declared.

I think an 11% tax won't have any real effect anyway except a few people will cry about it and then forget about it and keep on doing what they have done from the beginning anyway.

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.09.20 01:16:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 20/09/2009 01:29:37
Originally by: Wescombe
(..) so yes when im not playing a lot I would feel annoyed by losing 11-27mil for a npc corp where the funds were not actually be used for something.
Well, it is being used for something - paying Concord, so that other players can't wardec you.
I'd say that's fair. It should have been like this right from the start.

It would be even better if all the NPC corps had some more advantages and disadvantages and special features, along with varying taxes. That would breathe a bit more life into them.
Personally I think the navy NPC corps should have the highest taxe rates Twisted Evil

Regarding corp-hopping and war-deccing, I think both should be de-trivialized.
It should be more expensive and it should require a bit more effort to create a corp, and wardecs should be more expensive.
Don't force people to do anything, but some actions should have more meaning and consequences.
Just a bit.


Pages: first : previous : 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 ... : last (39)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only