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Wolf Parade
Posted - 2009.10.11 00:32:00 - [1111]
 

Good job on this move ccp

|I support what is going on here thumbs up|

Hamshoe
Posted - 2009.10.11 04:12:00 - [1112]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
It still amazes me how hard some people work to manufacture reasons to justify to themselves why they can not possibly play the majority of the game they are paying for.


That has to be the godawfull most stupid, ignorant and mind bogglingly arrogant take on the issue I've seen.

Are you truly trying to pretend that your concern is that people aren't getting all they pay for? Do you imagine yourself so enlightened that you need to instruct the poor ignorant slobs who are actually paying and playing as they want to that your preferences are somehow objectively better?

You're an ass of collossal proportion. And doubtless incapable of recognizing that.

Xano Heroma
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.10.11 07:40:00 - [1113]
 

Edited by: Xano Heroma on 11/10/2009 07:51:11
Originally by: Tuscanspeed
Originally by: Xano Heroma


Yep I agree here !!..... oh man theirs gonna be ALOT of 1-man Corps Rolling Eyes
= pointless


You know corp creation will get nerfed next right?


yes you are right Evil or Very Mad unfortunetly.... less just hope CCP wakes up from their mind Frack'up before they force too many PVE players out of EVE ugh

can't imagen any serious missionrunner that will work under a 11%tax...
I surtently won't ugh and running missions with war decs on you is out of the question Exclamation, but for now i choice to be an optimist and believe that their will contiue to be a "way"... and cross that bridge when and if it should come.

Fortum Peccavi
Posted - 2009.10.11 09:03:00 - [1114]
 

Hey look a threadna... ohshi..!!Shocked

MightyRhinox
Minmatar
Rhinox Heavy Industries
Twilight Military Industrial Complex Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.11 10:13:00 - [1115]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

Yes, good plan. But a transaction tax would be better. Dont compare it to VAT; compare it to the sales tax that countries like New Zealnd have instead of income tax.



What an odd thing to say, NZ has income tax, indeed every country with a GST does...

Jojo Jackson
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.11 12:04:00 - [1116]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
I love the fact they used 11% as tax rate instead of the standard 10%. 11% for wardec immunity sounds fine to me and it's only a nerf to mission/ratting bounty income anyway, so industry and trade alts are unaffected.


Lol, yes, but why are ALTS untouched?

Just to even more protect Pirats and 00 player?

"here, you can gang people with one char destroying there day and safly steal there loot with this ALT npc corp toon" ?

-> STUPID!

Oscardoodle
Amarr
Posted - 2009.10.11 12:59:00 - [1117]
 

Originally by: Hamshoe

That has to be the godawfull most stupid, ignorant and mind bogglingly arrogant take on the issue I've seen.

Are you truly trying to pretend that your concern is that people aren't getting all they pay for? Do you imagine yourself so enlightened that you need to instruct the poor ignorant slobs who are actually paying and playing as they want to that your preferences are somehow objectively better?

You're an ass of collossal proportion. And doubtless incapable of recognizing that.


How about those PVP players who played how they liked until CCP hit them with the bat? Sounds like you'd be one of the first to cry "adapt or die".

Pot, meet kettle.

Concubinia Scarlett
Posted - 2009.10.31 09:39:00 - [1118]
 

Will this not just mean a surge of thousands of one-man corps with a zero tax rate as people 'work around' the 10% NPC tax rate?

Bartholomeus Crane
Gallente
The Crane Family
Posted - 2009.10.31 10:01:00 - [1119]
 

Originally by: Concubinia Scarlett
Will this not just mean a surge of thousands of one-man corps with a zero tax rate as people 'work around' the 10% NPC tax rate?


Yes, but these can now be decced. That's the whole point. Things are going to be ... interesting ...

Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
Posted - 2009.10.31 11:25:00 - [1120]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Yes, but these can now be decced. That's the whole point. Things are going to be ... interesting ...


lol, wut? 1000 corps x 2mil isk wardec fee = 2billion isk very interesting indeed. More like: nothing too see here, move along!

Captain Mastiff
Posted - 2009.10.31 13:22:00 - [1121]
 

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Originally by: Concubinia Scarlett
Will this not just mean a surge of thousands of one-man corps with a zero tax rate as people 'work around' the 10% NPC tax rate?


Yes, but these can now be decced. That's the whole point. Things are going to be ... interesting ...


Yes very interesting because preventing one person from undocking for a week or more makes the game more interesting.

The influx of corps is going to cause many offices to go up in price and be a bit of annoyance. 11% isn't for war dec immunity. If you want to pick a fight on ONE person then steal from their can.

Casimir Fenring
Posted - 2009.10.31 18:48:00 - [1122]
 

Personally, 11% is no skin off of my buttocks to keep from being dragged into some pimply faced twits trying to work off their inferiority complexes with a wardec.

Casimir Fenring
Posted - 2009.10.31 18:56:00 - [1123]
 

Originally by: Ms Iustitia
Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 30/09/2009 14:43:51
On the issue of jump clones being difficult to get... wat?
There are any number of people you can contact through this forum that provide a jump clone aquisition service for a small fee.
Or, interestingly enough, if you join a corp that has standings already you can get them regardless of your own.
Or, if you join a corp that owns a Mothership they can cook one up for you at any time. I believe Roquals can do this as well.

On the matter of getting podded in empire, while it is possible to have lag issues and get popped on occassion, it really is a rarity. And if you are in a cheaply implanted (if at all) clone, who cares anyway?

It still amazes me how hard some people work to manufacture reasons to justify to themselves why they can not possibly play the majority of the game they are paying for. It is somewhat like playing a race game and only fooling around with customizing the cars, because if you actually raced them you might dent the fender. True, you can do that. Just don't be surprised that the game design caters to the people that are actually racing, and when most folks tell you that you are missing the point.





i have to disagree, your analogy of Eve akin to a "race game" is somewhat wrong, you see, EVE has PVE and PVP content, so, it won't just be "fooling" if you will pursue the PVE content only, as of a "Race Game", its just a race, but certainly, there are events that cater car hobbyists who'll love racing their cars and just merely showing them off in one venue. some Car Shows do that, then again, you're just putting points to discredit an issue, try again. Wink


It would be really nice if you could pursue PvE without having to put up with the BS of PvP'ers screwing with you looking for an easy kill.

Dr Karsun
Gallente
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Posted - 2009.10.31 19:05:00 - [1124]
 

That is actually... Sick.

It'll change -nothing-, isk farmers will just create their own 1-2-3-4-5 people corps with 0% tax and take up nice corp names to hide the fact... It'll just make mission running newbs lose 11% of their isk making it harder for them to quickly jump into their first bs to run l4's smoothly.

/not signed at all, although I know it won't change anything.

Mimi Ar'Skele
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2009.11.01 06:00:00 - [1125]
 

Awesomest change ever.

Look, we know the vets will avoid this. No impact to anyone who's been in eve for any length of time. Those of us enjoying the massively singleplayer experience will still have it.

Newbies lose:

1. A useful rookie channel. Yup, the NPC corps are 1337% more useful than the ISK seller spamfest new characters are dumped into.
2. Their ships. You *KNOW* new guys have no clue corpies can shoot them in highsec. They'll blindly hook up with low tax corps hoping to learn the ropes, and instead will learn why it's important to keep their clone up to date.

We'll see how this pans out. I for one will not be impacted overmuch, mostly because I only mission to grind standings. The ISK from mission running is pitiful in the grand scheme of things.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.01 07:11:00 - [1126]
 

Originally by: Mimi Ar'Skele
Awesomest change ever.

Look, we know the vets will avoid this. No impact to anyone who's been in eve for any length of time. Those of us enjoying the massively singleplayer experience will still have it.

Newbies lose:

1. A useful rookie channel. Yup, the NPC corps are 1337% more useful than the ISK seller spamfest new characters are dumped into.
2. Their ships. You *KNOW* new guys have no clue corpies can shoot them in highsec. They'll blindly hook up with low tax corps hoping to learn the ropes, and instead will learn why it's important to keep their clone up to date.

We'll see how this pans out. I for one will not be impacted overmuch, mostly because I only mission to grind standings. The ISK from mission running is pitiful in the grand scheme of things.


1: Rookies won't be affected by this tax as there are minimum amounts that will be taxed, only the more experienced players will be getting rewards that are high enough to break the tax threshold. So no, rookies will not loose their useful rookie channel.

2: By the time the tax DOES start affecting them, they should have learned enough to know that their corp mates can shoot them... as well as have had an opportunity to meet people they feel they would like to try corp life with. It might surprise you to learn that only a very small fraction of corps recruit people just to shoot them as, oddly enough, no one wants to join them and they fade away. Funny how that works.

Quote:
That has to be the godawfull most stupid, ignorant and mind bogglingly arrogant take on the issue I've seen. Are you truly trying to pretend that your concern is that people aren't getting all they pay for? Do you imagine yourself so enlightened that you need to instruct the poor ignorant slobs who are actually paying and playing as they want to that your preferences are somehow objectively better? You're an ass of collossal proportion. And doubtless incapable of recognizing that.


Sorry I missed this one when it was first posted. Let me clarify.
I'm not concerned in the slightest about people getting their monies worth out of EVE, nor is that what I said. I AM amused at the lengths people go to in justifying why they should have no repercussions for insisting on playing by beginners rules, with beginning players protections, long after they are proficient enough to play with the big boys.

To put it in very, very simplistic terms you have joined a game of RISK. However you insist that not only should you be able to gain units a little faster than everyone else, but no one is allowed to attempt to invade the countries you hold. Hey, most people try to cut the guy who's never played before a little slack so he can get the hang of it, but after a while it gets a little old. Sure, you may enjoy accumulating units on the map under those rules but really, eventually, what is the point of playing.

CCP has said it, and the community in general has said it, perhaps eventually it will get through to you. NPC corps are intended for new players to learn the game, and as such are safer than other area's of the game. After a while, you really need to move on.


Zulf BesGUowy
Amarr
Posted - 2009.11.01 08:02:00 - [1127]
 

Edited by: Zulf BesGUowy on 01/11/2009 08:12:35
Edited by: Zulf BesGUowy on 01/11/2009 08:09:01
Fragment of Dev Blog

"It seems like an unrealistic scenario that the empires in EVE provide infrastructure, security and a host of other financially demanding services at no cost. I sometimes read people complaining about how EVEs physics are unrealistic, but on the realism scale, that still pales compared to a government that refuses to tax its citizens."

By CCP Soundwave

I agre to this,thys is fresh and logical,here nothing for free,but why 11%?

5% tax should be ok,here no reason for higer tax beacuse idea is to put feeling to player "you have to pay for meny things",not feeling "you have to pay tax for corp thiefs".If CCP thinking here is a lot mony on mission,they have to reduce amount of bounty,not amount of tax.


For some reasons 11% is to much,like in real world nobody want to pay high tax,especially new players who need boost to wallet,new skills ships implants etc,CPP dont forget this,a lot player earn mony in mission then those people buy stuf for pvp.


For some people 11% tax per month is -40-60mil isk a lot mony ! shiny dominix ;/ well we have to fly in chep ships after changes ;P


Ps Sory for my grammar

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.01 08:12:00 - [1128]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1

1: Rookies won't be affected by this tax as there are minimum amounts that will be taxed, only the more experienced players will be getting rewards that are high enough to break the tax threshold. So no, rookies will not loose their useful rookie channel.


Half of the rats in level 2?
Level 2 mission rewards?

Truly the experience of people doing level 2 mission is staggering and the should not be in a NPC corp. Rolling Eyes

Originally by: Ranger 1

2: By the time the tax DOES start affecting them, they should have learned enough to know that their corp mates can shoot them... as well as have had an opportunity to meet people they feel they would like to try corp life with. It might surprise you to learn that only a very small fraction of corps recruit people just to shoot them as, oddly enough, no one wants to join them and they fade away. Funny how that works.


Funny as this is not true.

a) There is a practically endless stream of new players that will not know how it work so they fall for it;

b) there is not in game mechanism to know what corps do that so again people will fall for it (note that players tricked that way will not return to a starter corp, so they will not be spreading the word of what are the "bad" corporations);

c) they will be the most aggressive corps recruiting in the starter NPC corps so they will get a fair percentage of the new players in proportion to the actual number of the corps doing that.


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.01 08:17:00 - [1129]
 

38 pages is a lot of thread. Has a single person who was opposed to this tax become reconciled to it? Or a single supporter been persuaded against it? Because it seems like if anyone was going to be persuaded, that 38 pages would be enough to do the job.

Otherwise this thread should be deleted at once, because of TQ's known vulnerability to snowflakes.

PS I'm back!

ServantOfMask
Minmatar
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.01 08:48:00 - [1130]
 

Edited by: ServantOfMask on 01/11/2009 08:49:28
just had a look on sisi...

npc corp tax has been increased to 15% !

there is also an option to war-dec non-starter NPC corporations !!

wow... talk about an incentive to GTFO of npc corps since everyone and their grandmothers will wardec npc corps.
i'm considering taking a vacation from wormholing to kill me some CNR's in motsu.

edit: this is what you get for crying about 11% with no change to war dec immunity.

Serpents smile
Posted - 2009.11.01 09:01:00 - [1131]
 

Originally by: ServantOfMask
Edited by: ServantOfMask on 01/11/2009 08:49:28
just had a look on sisi...

npc corp tax has been increased to 15% !

there is also an option to war-dec non-starter NPC corporations !!
\

You're kidding right? Shocked
Because if it is true then this thread is nothing compared to the mass explosion that will follow this little piece of information.

(/me starts praying it is true)
Someone bring me MA' POPCORN! Laughing

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.01 09:36:00 - [1132]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 01/11/2009 09:52:47
Quote:
Originally by: Ranger 1 1: Rookies won't be affected by this tax as there are minimum amounts that will be taxed, only the more experienced players will be getting rewards that are high enough to break the tax threshold. So no, rookies will not loose their useful rookie channel.

Quote:
Half of the rats in level 2? Level 2 mission rewards? Truly the experience of people doing level 2 mission is staggering and the should not be in a NPC corp. Rolling Eyes Originally by: Ranger 1


They start feeling the tax partially in level 2's and feel it fully in level 3 missions. Sounds about right actually.

As for the rest:

Quote:
a) There is a practically endless stream of new players that will not know how it work so they fall for it;
b) there is not in game mechanism to know what corps do that so again people will fall for it (note that players tricked that way will not return to a starter corp, so they will not be spreading the word of what are the "bad" corporations);
c) they will be the most aggressive corps recruiting in the starter NPC corps so they will get a fair percentage of the new players in proportion to the actual number of the corps doing that.


A: Of course there will always be new people, and yes some will make bad choices. Hopefully they will learn from them and keep in perspective the fact that this is just a game after all. Very Happy

B: Actually, there are a number of avenues for people to investigate prospective corporations. Perhaps you should investigate this yourself at some point. Interestingly, there are also ways to communicate with people in the noob corps other than corp chat.

C: I'd love to see your facts backing that up. In fact, I'm sure we would all love to see your information on the prevalence of corporations that recruit new members with the express purpose of ganking them. According to you, the extent of this problem is so huge it's hard to believe that the vast majority of players in EVE are actually members of player corporations. Shocked

Enough of this twaddle. You know as well as I do that there are reputable corporations dedicated to helping new players take their first steps out of the noob corps. They are well advertised and easy to find.

Try again.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.01 10:02:00 - [1133]
 

Originally by: ServantOfMask
Edited by: ServantOfMask on 01/11/2009 08:49:28
just had a look on sisi...

npc corp tax has been increased to 15% !

there is also an option to war-dec non-starter NPC corporations !!

wow... talk about an incentive to GTFO of npc corps since everyone and their grandmothers will wardec npc corps.
i'm considering taking a vacation from wormholing to kill me some CNR's in motsu.

edit: this is what you get for crying about 11% with no change to war dec immunity.


I'm not in a position where I can get on the test server currently to confirm this. If true, I don't really see a big problem with 15%, seems like a more sensible level to be honest... about 5% above what most corps run at.

As for being able to war dec NPC corps, now that is a new wrinkle. It makes me wonder if there will be new options for people that wish to "role play" being a member of a specific NPC corp, or if things will be left just as they are in that regard to pressure people into leaving the NPC corp you find yourself in after leaving a player corp as quickly as possible.

I guess we will just have to see if this
is true,
is kept,
is developed further.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.01 10:50:00 - [1134]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 01/11/2009 11:07:57
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 01/11/2009 10:58:38
Originally by: ServantOfMask

just had a look on sisi...

npc corp tax has been increased to 15% !

there is also an option to war-dec non-starter NPC corporations !!



Both false.

Originally by: Ranger 1


Quote:

b) there is not in game mechanism to know what corps do that so again people will fall for it (note that players tricked that way will not return to a starter corp, so they will not be spreading the word of what are the "bad" corporations);



B: Actually, there are a number of avenues for people to investigate prospective corporations. Perhaps you should investigate this yourself at some point. Interestingly, there are also ways to communicate with people in the noob corps other than corp chat.




I don't know if you have a passion for stupid replies or if this really show how your brain work and you really can't grasp the concept that there are new players that don't know the game.

The "avenues for people to investigate prospective corporations" work badly for truly new players;

"there are also ways to communicate with people in the noob corps other than corp chat" again don't really work on a mass scale.
Sure it is possible to speak to new player A or B but it is not possible to speak to the mass of new players in a starter corp unless you are in that starter corp and spend time in the corp channel.

Your, mine and all the other old players noob alts can easily use those instruments, but new players don't know them and don't know what they should search for.

Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:

c) they will be the most aggressive corps recruiting in the starter NPC corps so they will get a fair percentage of the new players in proportion to the actual number of the corps doing that.


C: I'd love to see your facts backing that up. In fact, I'm sure we would all love to see your information on the prevalence of corporations that recruit new members with the express purpose of ganking them. According to you, the extent of this problem is so huge it's hard to believe that the vast majority of players in EVE are actually members of player corporations. Shocked




Again you play with my comment in your reply making something different.

To repeat the part you missed:

"fair percentage of the new players in proportion to the actual number of the corps doing that"

I am not calming that there is a huge number of corps doing that, but that proportionally the effect is larger than what you will think based on the number of corporations doing that.

About where I find the data for my opinion, it is pretty simple:

a) Most established corporations don't recruit new players.

B) That kind of griefing corp is interested in players with little awareness of the game mechanics.

So where they can find them? Starter players corp.

C) So we have a group interested in recruiting new players and a group generally not interested in recruiting new players.

D) Who will be recruiting more aggressively in the starter NPC corp channels?

Clear enough?




ServantOfMask
Minmatar
Eye Bee Em
Stellar Defense Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.01 11:36:00 - [1135]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul


Both false.





damnit you had to tell them didn't you?

im trying to fan the blaze a bit.. we are soo close to beating the dead horse (54pages) and that took 3years.

was hoping for alot more tears and rage before someone actually logged into sisi to check. YARRRR!!

kudos to you Wink

RedSplat
Posted - 2009.11.01 11:57:00 - [1136]
 

Tax still needs to be higher

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.11.01 17:27:00 - [1137]
 

Venkul Mul I haven't brought this to the level of personal insults, perhaps you should refrain from that.

Yes, access to information for the new player looking for a corp can be improved. I would suggest keeping your eye peeled for further information on New Eden. However it is difficult for new players not to find information on reputable starter player corps within the first few months of play even as things are now.
If you don't agree with that assessment, that's fine... difficult to believe, but fine.

I know what you are trying to say, but the fact remains that the number of new players that end up stumbling into a corp that recruits them to die is pretty low. How many healthy player corps are out there? Open your eyes. The VAST majority of EVE players happily existing in player corps. If you don't see that, I'm afraid you are deep in denial.





Casimir Fenring
Posted - 2009.11.01 23:41:00 - [1138]
 

Actually, I'm one of the many players quite satisfied being in an NPC corp. As I said before, 11% is a small price to pay to avoid all of the BS that accompanies a wardec. The ones I've been involved in were for no other purpose than to extort money from the player corps I was in. Pointless and costly.

If CCP wants to reflect a real social system, players should be able to go indie, not having membership in either a NPC or player corp. Which begs the question of just why CCP continues to steer, or as seems to be the case here...push, players into corps.

I'm also one of those ISK farmers who simply enjoys the game for what it is...a game. I enjoy it so much that I have 3 accounts, and am active on all 3 on a regular basis. But the farming has a goal...generate income while I develop skills to do what I want to do in the game...without having to deal with player corp BS.

Jojo Jackson
Caldari
Posted - 2009.11.01 23:58:00 - [1139]
 

Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 02/11/2009 00:01:14
If it's posible to wardec NPC corps ... it might be posible to kill all this remote-rep and hauler alts from Pirates. But I'm sure CCP intruduses a backdoor to protect them again :(.

As tax doesn't tuch this hauler/remote-rep/miner alts anyway, they might just stay in Rookie corps and lough about all the dump free-kill-sheeps they get.

Nother proof CCP hate mission runner and love pirates/scammer :(.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2009.11.02 05:05:00 - [1140]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
38 pages is a lot of thread. Has a single person who was opposed to this tax become reconciled to it?
PS I'm back!

I'm becoming reconciled to it, in spite of the ham-handed and patently idiotic manner it was introduced.
Originally by: Ranger 1
B: Actually, there are a number of avenues for people to investigate prospective corporations.


I disagree. I think the tools to research corps in this game suck compared to the very famous scamming... but thats just my opinion...
Originally by: Ranger 1
You know as well as I do that there are reputable corporations dedicated to helping new players take their first steps out of the noob corps. They are well advertised and easy to find.

Try again.


There are some good newb friendly corps out there. I disagree however with the "ease of finding them..." Not everyone gets as lucky as I did, and get a good lead on Eve - Uni shortly after I joined the game. I've run into many, many people who had no clue... Didn't know who to trust, or where to start looking...

In any event, this tax will change nothing, as has been stated before, it only amounts to about 3.5% on a mission runners income if they salvage/loot. Basically nothing.

People will still be immune to wardec's. (FFS, no one is going to bother war-dec'ing hundreds of 1 man corps...)[[just don't talk smack, you'll be almost perfectly safe...]]

Players who don't want to be in player corps won't change.

CCP's ham-handed attempt to encourage players to move to Player Corps won't (at this level) accomplish what they want.

CCP really should look into changing the recruiting / advertising / corp interface...

But I hear that would require more than just going after "low-hanging fruit", i.e. coding and effort...

P.S. - Welcome back Malcanis Laughing



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