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Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.29 18:45:00 - [1051]
 

Quote:
Most of the "PvP" that an EvE rookie sees is just pretend combat. Getting jumped by gankers who have 10 times the fighting power, and no chance of losing. Being ganked is boring for anybody. And ganking is boring for a lot of people.


You do realize of course that if we pretend that statement has more than a passing aquaintance with fact, the main reason this happens is that the rookie in question is sitting in comfortable isolation in an NPC corp.

If he were in a corp of like minded rookies, 30 or so of them would jump in and devestate the more experienced gankers.
If he were in a normal corp comprised of a wide variety of experience levels, 15 or so of them would jump in to save the day.

Don't take your personal failings and blame the game for them. The mechanics are fine, its the players who define their own level on the food chain.

Bjron
Posted - 2009.09.29 18:47:00 - [1052]
 

Only 36 pages guys?

Eve General,
I am dissapoint.

Keep the QQnought going!.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.29 19:27:00 - [1053]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Tax This
The sandbox is a lie!

Next they will find a way to tax empire based pvp corps to 'nudge' them into 0.0 for 'real' pvp!YARRRR!!

GG socialist devs.




Oh good idea! I like it, I'll suggest it in the Assembly and give you credit.

I reckon increasing base market taxes to 3.5% will do for a start. That's about 1/3rd to 1/6th the level of "real life" economies, which qualifies as a "nudge" and would go a little way - a very little way - towards covering the cost of that huge protection subsidy you hi-sec guys get.


Malc:

1) go and look how VAT tax work. It is a tax on added value. I.e. you get a refund on the tax you paid for the items you brought and pay a tax on the items you sell.
So that only the true profit is taxed.

It is not possible to apply that in EVE as everyone will be evading the tax with direct exchanges.

2) why don't you put aside a bit your hate for mission runners and think what you write?

The "huge protection subsidy" work for everyone, indifferently if he is in a player corp or not.

So if that is the reason, you should apply the 11% tax to every activity in high sec, independently if you are in a player or NPC corp.



Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.29 19:32:00 - [1054]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Most of the "PvP" that an EvE rookie sees is just pretend combat. Getting jumped by gankers who have 10 times the fighting power, and no chance of losing. Being ganked is boring for anybody. And ganking is boring for a lot of people.


You do realize of course that if we pretend that statement has more than a passing aquaintance with fact, the main reason this happens is that the rookie in question is sitting in comfortable isolation in an NPC corp.

If he were in a corp of like minded rookies, 30 or so of them would jump in and devestate the more experienced gankers.
If he were in a normal corp comprised of a wide variety of experience levels, 15 or so of them would jump in to save the day.

Don't take your personal failings and blame the game for them. The mechanics are fine, its the players who define their own level on the food chain.



Fables.

The gankers aren't stupid (at least not too much) and select targets with that will not present any level of danger, so they will not attack a corporation with enough people to put up a 30 to 1 (or even a 5 to 1) fight.



Bjron
Posted - 2009.09.29 19:42:00 - [1055]
 

Yo, Eve general, i'm happy for you, and imma let you finish, but Npc corp's and carebears have the best tears of all time!
ALL TIME!


YARRRR!!

Gsptlsnz
Posted - 2009.09.29 19:48:00 - [1056]
 

Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 29/09/2009 19:49:13
@Ranger 1

Are you suggesting that scenario is a common response to ganking?
Or an occasional but exceptional response?
Or a pleasant fantasy, invented to make gankers feel like combat PvPers?

I'd suggest it's the third one. Another of these EvE stories which have been fabricated to make players feel good about their behavior.

I don't really understand the guilt. Ganking is game-legal, and fair fights are not required or expected in EvE. And surely the gankers have no self-respect left to lose?

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.29 19:52:00 - [1057]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 29/09/2009 19:52:15
Quote:
The gankers aren't stupid (at least not too much) and select targets with that will not present any level of danger, so they will not attack a corporation with enough people to put up a 30 to 1 (or even a 5 to 1) fight.


Okay, I'll play along. If what you say is true, then the problem is solved eh? Laughing

Just get a group together before you make your corp and you won't need the war dec immunity, and can have your 0% tax rate.

Masterful solution to the problem, I wish CCP had thought of it.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.29 20:11:00 - [1058]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Tax This
The sandbox is a lie!

Next they will find a way to tax empire based pvp corps to 'nudge' them into 0.0 for 'real' pvp!YARRRR!!

GG socialist devs.




Oh good idea! I like it, I'll suggest it in the Assembly and give you credit.

I reckon increasing base market taxes to 3.5% will do for a start. That's about 1/3rd to 1/6th the level of "real life" economies, which qualifies as a "nudge" and would go a little way - a very little way - towards covering the cost of that huge protection subsidy you hi-sec guys get.


Malc:

1) go and look how VAT tax work. It is a tax on added value.





Ah, so you're saying only the miners and salvagers, inventors and researchers should pay it, and not the guys who make T1 ships & modules?

Yeah, OK, I'm down with that.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.29 20:20:00 - [1059]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 29/09/2009 20:25:40
Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 29/09/2009 19:52:15
Quote:
The gankers aren't stupid (at least not too much) and select targets with that will not present any level of danger, so they will not attack a corporation with enough people to put up a 30 to 1 (or even a 5 to 1) fight.


Okay, I'll play along. If what you say is true, then the problem is solved eh? Laughing

Just get a group together before you make your corp and you won't need the war dec immunity, and can have your 0% tax rate.

Masterful solution to the problem, I wish CCP had thought of it.



Get 50 noob friends along.

Get ganked by 20 man corp with people in t2 ships and some year of skills.

The ganker are still avoiding 5:1 odd and killing plenty of noobs.

You are playing stupid or you are it?

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Tax This
The sandbox is a lie!

Next they will find a way to tax empire based pvp corps to 'nudge' them into 0.0 for 'real' pvp!YARRRR!!

GG socialist devs.




Oh good idea! I like it, I'll suggest it in the Assembly and give you credit.

I reckon increasing base market taxes to 3.5% will do for a start. That's about 1/3rd to 1/6th the level of "real life" economies, which qualifies as a "nudge" and would go a little way - a very little way - towards covering the cost of that huge protection subsidy you hi-sec guys get.


Malc:

1) go and look how VAT tax work. It is a tax on added value.





Ah, so you're saying only the miners and salvagers, inventors and researchers should pay it, and not the guys who make T1 ships & modules?

Yeah, OK, I'm down with that.


I see you have not jet got how the tax work.

As I am not apparently a good at explaining it to you, I suggest you read some text about it.

It apply on what you sell after you have included all the production costs.

For a miner production costs include all the ships purchases, crystals and so on.

For a shipbuilder all the mineral purchases, BPO, industry fees and so on.

It will hit most mission runners as they have low activity costs (unless they purchase a lot of faction items).

But it is still perfectly avoidable in EVE doing direct trades.


Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.29 20:21:00 - [1060]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 29/09/2009 20:22:49
Originally by: Gsptlsnz

Are you suggesting that scenario is a common response to ganking?
Or an occasional but exceptional response?
Or a pleasant fantasy, invented to make gankers feel like combat PvPers?


I would suggest to stop living in isolation. This very scenario plays out multiple times every day in EVE.
Do a bit of homework. I created a corp shortly after starting EVE and moved to Aridia. My corp became the cornerstone of an informal alliance of corporations call the RAF (Ranger Alliance Fleet). We then proceded to cleanse the Arida region of pirate and gank organizations comprised of more experienced players than the bulk of our membership.
On one occasion we turned back a suprise raid by Burn Eden (then a newish organization) and prevented them from launching a surprise attack on Fountain space. In recognition of this, and our general success in stabilizing the region, we were invited to become part of the Fountain Alliance, and I eventually found myself on the ruling council.
Very Happy Fantasy indeed....

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.29 20:27:00 - [1061]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 29/09/2009 20:35:12
Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 29/09/2009 20:22:49
Originally by: Gsptlsnz

Are you suggesting that scenario is a common response to ganking?
Or an occasional but exceptional response?
Or a pleasant fantasy, invented to make gankers feel like combat PvPers?


I would suggest to stop living in isolation. This very scenario plays out multiple times every day in EVE.
Do a bit of homework. I created a corp shortly after starting EVE and moved to Aridia. My corp became the cornerstone of an informal alliance of corporations call the RAF (Ranger Alliance Fleet). We then proceded to cleanse the Arida region of pirate and gank organizations comprised of more experienced players than the bulk of our membership.
On one occasion we turned back a suprise raid by Burn Eden (then a newish organization) and prevented them from launching a surprise attack on Fountain space. In recognition of this, and our general success in stabilizing the region, we were invited to become part of the Fountain Alliance, and I eventually found myself on the ruling council.
Very Happy Fantasy indeed....


Stop living in the past.

You did that in 2006 or even before (your char history is truncated).

How many T2 ships in the hand of your enemies at the time?
How many T2 modules?
How many years of difference in training?

Try it today. Without any help from your more experienced character and your experienced buddies.





Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.29 20:32:00 - [1062]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Get 50 noob friends along.
Get ganked by 20 man corp with people in t2 ships and some year of skills.
The ganker are still avoiding 5:1 odd and killing plenty of noobs.
You are playing stupid or you are it?
[/quote


Let me educate you. If you have 50 week old characters in even T1 frigates, and attack an experienced group of 20 players in T2 vessels, you will kill a far far higher amount of isk than they will. Apparently you have missed the organized roams from Scrap Heap Challenge, or Eve University, or Agony Unleashed that do these things as a training excercise (often deep into 0.0) on a regular basis for new players.
I'm not going to call you stupid, but I will say you lack experience. Stop selling yourself, and all new players in EVE, short. Your only limitations are what you impose upon yourself.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.29 20:39:00 - [1063]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Get 50 noob friends along.
Get ganked by 20 man corp with people in t2 ships and some year of skills.
The ganker are still avoiding 5:1 odd and killing plenty of noobs.
You are playing stupid or you are it?
[/quote



Let me educate you. If you have 50 week old characters in even T1 frigates, and attack an experienced group of 20 players in T2 vessels, you will kill a far far higher amount of isk than they will. Apparently you have missed the organized roams from Scrap Heap Challenge, or Eve University, or Agony Unleashed that do these things as a training excercise (often deep into 0.0) on a regular basis for new players.
I'm not going to call you stupid, but I will say you lack experience. Stop selling yourself, and all new players in EVE, short. Your only limitations are what you impose upon yourself.



Week old character. Laughing

Call them what really are:
Months (plural) old characters with experienced (years) old characters directing them.

Way different from a new corp made by new characters.


Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.29 20:40:00 - [1064]
 

Quote:
Stop living in the past.


Excuse me?
You said what I pointed out was unrealistic. I gave you a factual example from my own experience (as opposed to the thousands of examples I could have listed). I guess that was the best reply you could come up with, considering your arguments were shot down in flames eh? Laughing

Perhaps if you spent less time trying to blame your failure to succeed in a player corp on the game, and actually listened when people tried to help you, you find yourself having a much deeper and more enjoyable gaming experience than you are now.

Then again, perhaps your attitude explains it all. Wink




Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.29 20:49:00 - [1065]
 

Quote:
Months (plural) old characters with experienced (years) old characters directing them.


Rolling Eyes I presume you were attempting to make a point. You failed.
If you take any 50 < month old characters, and even one of them comes up with the bright idea of saying "lets focus fire on one target" all on their own, they will kill ships. And they will inflict FAR more damage than they take in isk.

Simple fact. Sorry you can't deal with it.

Are you saying new players are too stupid to do that? Shocked
Newsflash, they aren't. Again, quit selling new players short.



Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.29 20:53:00 - [1066]
 

Edited by: Venkul Mul on 29/09/2009 21:01:12


Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Stop living in the past.


Excuse me?
You said what I pointed out was unrealistic. I gave you a factual example from my own experience (as opposed to the thousands of examples I could have listed). I guess that was the best reply you could come up with, considering your arguments were shot down in flames eh? Laughing

Perhaps if you spent less time trying to blame your failure to succeed in a player corp on the game, and actually listened when people tried to help you, you find yourself having a much deeper and more enjoyable gaming experience than you are now.

Then again, perhaps your attitude explains it all. Wink



1) Read the rest of the post. (Yes, probably it was added after you cited it)

2) as already pointed to you, I am in a player corp and I have been in one for the greater part of my EVE life.

3) my hig sec wars have all ended well for me. 0.0 with an alt I was on the losing (BOB) side in Delve.

So don't assume too much.

Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Months (plural) old characters with experienced (years) old characters directing them.


Rolling Eyes I presume you were attempting to make a point. You failed.
If you take any 50 < month old characters, and even one of them comes up with the bright idea of saying "lets focus fire on one target" all on their own, they will kill ships. And they will inflict FAR more damage than they take in isk.

Simple fact. Sorry you can't deal with it.

Are you saying new players are too stupid to do that? Shocked
Newsflash, they aren't. Again, quit selling new players short.





And you are saying that old players are too stupid to snipe from outside the range of less than 1 month old players?

Losing a T2 cruiser or a T2 fitted Bs every 30 or so low tier frigates has a higher isk cost but if you look the wallet of both parties, the noob will be broke and unable to fight way before the gankers.

And that if they get a so good kill ratio.

With a bit of ingenuity and a alt I could spend a week sniping people in a noob corp without ever risking my ship.

And I don't mean a RR alt, simply someone to check the stations and general environ.





Ms Iustitia
Posted - 2009.09.29 21:25:00 - [1067]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Quote:
Stop living in the past.


Excuse me?
You said what I pointed out was unrealistic. I gave you a factual example from my own experience (as opposed to the thousands of examples I could have listed). I guess that was the best reply you could come up with, considering your arguments were shot down in flames eh? Laughing

Perhaps if you spent less time trying to blame your failure to succeed in a player corp on the game, and actually listened when people tried to help you, you find yourself having a much deeper and more enjoyable gaming experience than you are now.

Then again, perhaps your attitude explains it all. Wink




actually, i have to agree with you, if people just wills it, they may succeed eventually in EVE, BUT, as i've said over and over, a few plays EVE for the PVE content, we, in any discussion should live with that, and that you or CCP should be able to accept the fact that there are PVE players of EVE who do not wish to take part or can't take part in the PVP content of EVE due mainly of game times/schedules or they just want some few stress-free fun time with themselves. NPC Corps have a stress-free environment, the chat is buzzing with everything, but you are not obligated to respond to anything, whereas, in a player corp, there are certain obligations or functions or regulations one must need to adhere to. and i don't really think there's a player corp atm that don't have objectives or aims.

and i don't think PVErs are endangering the PVP content of EVE in any ways, those that try to use the loopholes of wardec immunity of NPC Corps are wannabe PvPers hiding in NPC Corps, and i don't think they're casual players by any means.

and to those saying that we are crying about the tax, frankly, our contention is not the 11% tax, its the notion that it is used as a tool to "encourage" mission runners out of NPC corps, its not everyone being forced out, JUST MISSION RUNNERS!

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.29 21:38:00 - [1068]
 

My posts are of neccessity limited, I'm sorry I can't quote specific lines. Bear with me.

How many T2 ships were flown against us? At its height the majority were T2 vessels (plenty of ceptors) and battleships. I had a lot of people in those corps that were too new to fly either.
T2 Modules? Whatever was available. Our opponents tended to equip the best available for combat. Our strength was teamwork.
Years of difference in skill? It varied of course, but a lot of our pilots were brand new to the game. Our opponents tended to be a LOT of wannabe pirate corps that have since died, with some exceptions like Beach Boys, among others.
I won't comment on how things ended for you in Delve. If you looked at my history, you know what I could say. No need to lower the bar.
I think, perhaps, you have forgotten your roots. Somehow we went from a scenario of 10 typical gankers at a gate camp vs 30 or so newish players to you trying to grief them. Interesting.
How far do we want to distort this until its workable for your argument? 30 one day old players in noob ships vs a Titan? Razz

Christina Bamar
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2009.09.29 22:46:00 - [1069]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul

Week old character. Laughing

Call them what really are:
Months (plural) old characters with experienced (years) old characters directing them.

Way different from a new corp made by new characters.




You'd be surprised how quickly someone can get competent in PvP. I've known 2 month old players who are more knowledgeable than 2 year old players. It simply depends on how easily you take to it, and how motivated you are.

Ms Iustitia
Posted - 2009.09.30 00:10:00 - [1070]
 

Originally by: Christina Bamar
Originally by: Venkul Mul

Week old character. Laughing

Call them what really are:
Months (plural) old characters with experienced (years) old characters directing them.

Way different from a new corp made by new characters.




You'd be surprised how quickly someone can get competent in PvP. I've known 2 month old players who are more knowledgeable than 2 year old players. It simply depends on how easily you take to it, and how motivated you are.


yeah, but for a new player to PvP, he'll need to do the following: the first toon will be somewhat balanced to do missions and/or mining runs and stock up some isk, ships and modules in preparation for PvP, i don't think any player would start doing PvP on day one coz you'd be flat broke pretty easily. mostly, an alt or another account is established to train solely for combat and that would be the PvP toon... so again, its the preparation that takes time, unless you'll have a good isk backing from a corp, and i gather that good corps now requires a minimum amount of sp before you're even considered for membership.

Malphilos
Posted - 2009.09.30 04:30:00 - [1071]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
I created a corp shortly after starting EVE and moved to Aridia. My corp became the cornerstone of an informal alliance of corporations call the RAF (Ranger Alliance Fleet). We then proceded to cleanse the Arida region ....


...and then I tied an onion on to my belt, it was the style at the time, and headed down to the telegraph ofice to call the posse. Laughing

Gsptlsnz
Posted - 2009.09.30 04:38:00 - [1072]
 

Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 30/09/2009 04:39:17
@Ranger 1

You started by claiming that rookies can easily supress gankers because they can reliably and easily assemble a large (30 /lol) group of rookies and exact revenge on the gankers. It would be nice if rookies were gank-proof. But your fabricated scenarios don't make it so.

Though I must to admit that your flights of fancy have derailed the thread rather effectively.

Back on track: much of the combat PvP rookies are exposed to is just boring. There are other powerful disincentives to combat (low skills; low income; implants; irrelevance of typical player Corps; the hostility and dishonesty of established players).

People would try a lot harder to get into combat PvP if it looked like fun. If it doesn't they leave quickly, or find another path. HighSec mission running is a common choice, as it offers enough income to get established in the game, and hence to eventually gain control of of your EvE-destiny.

The only issue with mission running has been the general hostility of high-SP players, but since you earn that just by logging on, it can be ignored.

With this stupid tax CCP has decided to add themselves to the already excessive pool of griefers in the game. It seems we may not choose our own paths and timing after all. CCP has decreed that one form of peaceful economic development is unacceptable. So we will be economically penalized, or we will be subjected to the most tedious of all forms of pretend-PvP in EvE: highSec wardec gankers.

If combat PvP was fun and affordable, people would do more of it. If player Corps were easy to find, fun, and useful, more people would join them.

Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Eve Industrial Corp
Posted - 2009.09.30 05:42:00 - [1073]
 

Originally by: Gsptlsnz
Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 30/09/2009 04:39:17

If combat PvP was fun and affordable, people would do more of it. If player Corps were easy to find, fun, and useful, more people would join them.


Erm, it can be affordable - don't fly what you can't afford to replace.

Player corps are easier to find now check the ingame recruitment screen use the filters to select your ideal corp.

Most corps I'm sure are fun and I'm not sure what you mean by 'useful', but it's generally a good idea to bring an open mind and a willingness to listen and indeed share experiences as well as testing the theories out in practice.

With the advent of Dominion approaching the line between Combat pilots and Industrial/Science/Traders etc will be even more blurred than they are now and at the moment it can be quite bad.

I think people forget that you don't need to have a character that can fill just one role, you CAN have a shield tanking pimped out Drake, or a cyno pilot AND (during the quiet time) remotely start a few invention jobs, place buy orders, adjust sell orders etc.

You are not a Class - you are a demi-god please lets start acting as an immortal and get stuck in with everything eve has to offer.

As for the npc corp tax - 11% isn't going to mean a lot to a lot of people - if you're worried about the 11% npc tax rate, I wonder how quickly the average player run corp tax rate will rise :D Ours has been at ten percent for a long time, it's managable to live without, not everything is subjected to tax anyway and there's a pretty good threshold before it even kicks in anyway.

For so long player corps has had ISK sinks directed at them, I'm sure at one time you got an office in the station you created your corp, now you don't, which is measly. In fact I think a corp SHOULD include the cost of a office in the station you create it in (of course you could move your HQ elsewhere and close the old HQ office down) nothing wrong with that at all.

I hope Office space in Empire will be expanded IF the number of corporations is expected to rise suddenly.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.30 05:48:00 - [1074]
 

Quote:
You started by claiming that rookies can easily supress gankers because they can reliably and easily assemble a large (30 /lol) group of rookies and exact revenge on the gankers. It would be nice if rookies were gank-proof. But your fabricated scenarios don't make it so.


Actually, it is quite easy to put together a group of 30 rookies. Hundreds of corps have done it, my old corp included, when this character was only a few of weeks old. The question is (apparently) why do you think its hard? Anyone can (and do) manage this very feat every day in EVE. It's easy.

As for the 30 vs 10 bit being a "fabricated scenario", heh, you need to get out more. I can't tell you how many times I have seen this very thing happen (much to my amusement).

And no, rookies aren't gank proof. Nobody is, regardless of player experience. The difference is that even a rookie can easily replace a T1 frigate by hitting a couple of belts. Even if the entire group is killed in the end the rookies have lost a few mil per person at most, while the gankers would typically lose what, a couple of hundred mil if they lose even one HAC and its kit. In the scenario presented, of jumping through into a gate camp, those 30 noobs have pretty good odds of taking out more than one opponent.

More importantly, win or lose by any reckoning, all involved got some enjoyment out of the encounter. If the encounter even takes place of course. There are those in this thread who stoutly maintain that gankers wouldn't go after a group of that size to begin with. I don't believe that, but if it were true then the issue of harassment war decs is a non-issue... which would be "problem solved" and a win for your side. Very Happy

Quote:
Back on track: much of the combat PvP rookies are exposed to is just boring. There are other powerful disincentives to combat (low skills; low income; implants; irrelevance of typical player Corps; the hostility and dishonesty of established players).
People would try a lot harder to get into combat PvP if it looked like fun. If it doesn't they leave quickly, or find another path. HighSec mission running is a common choice, as it offers enough income to get established in the game, and hence to eventually gain control of of your EvE-destiny.


1: High Sec mission running and PVP activities are NOT mutually exclusive.
2: PVP rookies usually end up with the role of tackler, which is one of the most exciting roles in combat.
3: If you have low skills, its easy to be a tackler in a few days (particularly with the improvements to character generation).
4: If you have low income frigates are dirt cheap and a good corp will help you become more financially stable.
5: If you have implants then fly a clone that doesn't have implants into combat... jump clones are easy to acquire and (again) your corp can help you.
6: If you encounter a hostile or dishonest corp environment move to another corp... there are literally hundreds that are neither hostile nor dishonest to their members.
7: Entering a player corp does not necessarily mean that you "must" PVP. Many corps have their established industrial group that rarely, if ever, indulge in corporate PVP activities. This is often true of corps based in any security level.

Quote:
If combat PvP was fun and affordable, people would do more of it.

You see, that's the thing. PvP is fun, and unless you break the golden rule of not flying anything you can't comfortably afford to lose it can be dirt cheap. That is why so many people in game DO engage in combat in some fashion. Even if only in a frig tournament hosted by their corp.
Quote:
If player Corps were easy to find, fun, and useful, more people would join them.

Actually, the majority of people in this game do join player corps, find them with very little trouble, have fun in them, and find them extremely useful (read "easier to make money in than solo"). Sorry to burst your bubble.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.30 05:59:00 - [1075]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 30/09/2009 06:00:05
Originally by: Malphilos
Originally by: Ranger 1
I created a corp shortly after starting EVE and moved to Aridia. My corp became the cornerstone of an informal alliance of corporations call the RAF (Ranger Alliance Fleet). We then proceded to cleanse the Arida region ....


...and then I tied an onion on to my belt, it was the style at the time, and headed down to the telegraph ofice to call the posse. Laughing


Actually, at the time, we didn't have onions yet. We were still quite excited about this newly invented thing called dirt.


Gsptlsnz
Posted - 2009.09.30 06:04:00 - [1076]
 

Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 30/09/2009 07:09:03
Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 30/09/2009 06:38:24
Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 30/09/2009 06:36:38

JumpClones: Standings 8 for a Corp in suitable location. I'll have enough of them to be useful at about the time I get my Dreadnaught skills.

Without JumpClones, PvP is going to cost approximately 2 points on each attribute (the difference between easily replaceable and ruinously expensive implants). With Jumpclones it costs rookies around 5% of their training speed per PvP day. It's hardly surprising some players choose to get the skills for their Battleship (and appropriate modules) a week or two earlier instead.


Ship cost and efficiency: if I face the average EvE PvPer one on one (/lol), and we're each in a ship that cost 20 minutes grinding, fitted according to our skills, how is the fight going to go? Hmmm - *one* of us will be in a ship that can be shredded by a T2 scout drone. The other might well be in a ship with 4 times the fighting power.

In fact the only normal role available to a rookie is cannon-fodder (tackling). I would do it gladly if I was in a 0.0 territory-holding Corp. Without such a purpose it looks really boring.

In fact there's been a major change recently - the player initiative "Red vs Blue". It's still not a simple decision though, due to the podKill/implant issue.


Corps: two threads open on page one of ths forum. Bottom line: it's easy to find a bad Corp, very difficult to find one that suits you. Trust (or rather, the impossibility of trust) is a factor


Oppressive taxation: The 11% tax is not game-breaking in itself. The threat to increase it until we do exactly what the griefers at CCP matters a lot more. Lines are being drawn in the sand(box). With a subscription model, you need to trust your supplier. This tax has me wondering if CCP has handed design control over to non-gamer beanCounters who can't distinguish between corelation and causation.


One theory for all these outlandish claims by rich, high-SP players is that "once upom a time" EvE was a much more interesting and playable game than current experience suggests. The other, which fits the facts without requiring hallucenogenic assistance, is that the people providing this rose-tinted advice and guidance are exactly as friendly, reliable, and trustworthy as everyone else we interact with ingame.

Ms Iustitia
Posted - 2009.09.30 06:57:00 - [1077]
 

ok, to those "ayes" for the taxation, could you explain or reiterate the advantages of such a "fix"? again, have read and re-read soundwave's post, and its quiet contradicting and never to the point.

1) it says that NPC Corps are just temporary haven (supposedly), yet the tax will only hit mission runners, not the miners, nor industry-based toons. will someone explain why?

2) "unrealistic scenario" in empire, but wait, all empire infrastructure can be used by all players, unless of course one's standing is less than -10.00, which by the way will never happen. this also needs explaining.

3) now war immunity, guess its a pretty good advantage to PVE players, but wait, why is it deemed necessary to declare or to be able to declare war on PVE solo players? are they perceived threats?

4) "Hopefully, this will let player corporations compete on equal footing with NPC corporations."? equal footing? income? nullsec have all the goodies in terms of minerals and ratting, is it not? highsec corps do band together in exploration sites (mining) and wormholes. anyone care to elaborate?

and most of us, "ayes" and "nays", have agreed that 11% would not readily have such impact as perceived, so, i'm asking, what's the exact validity of the said "fix"? and again, what is being "balanced" here?

and please, refrain from comparing and thinking that what is years ago will happen "as is" today, i'm quiet familiar how MMOs evolve with respect to the human nature, if the server is just recently, everyone seems to care about everyone else, cause everyone tends to learn amongst themselves, and everyone tends to know everyone as well, then it evolves into being distant and being distrustful, mainly due to competition.

Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Eve Industrial Corp
Posted - 2009.09.30 07:45:00 - [1078]
 

Interesting reading and good questions. For me, I'm a yay man, but before I explain my own reasons for thinking it's a great idea, I want to attempt to answer your questions.

Originally by: Ms Iustitia
ok, to those "ayes" for the taxation, could you explain or reiterate the advantages of such a "fix"? again, have read and re-read soundwave's post, and its quiet contradicting and never to the point.

1) it says that NPC Corps are just temporary haven (supposedly), yet the tax will only hit mission runners, not the miners, nor industry-based toons. will someone explain why?



Miners get taxed via both the we-take tax AND if they sell the minerals on also sales tax/broker fees. Industry based characters are amongst the highest taxed, in or out of a player run corp.

Quote:

2) "unrealistic scenario" in empire, but wait, all empire infrastructure can be used by all players, unless of course one's standing is less than -10.00, which by the way will never happen. this also needs explaining.



In Role Play Terms, which the phrase "unrealistic scenario" is alluding to, there's lots of things a pod pilot pays for without it being itemised, from memory; there are crew (don't let anyone tell you otherwise), npc docking fees, replenishing of the camera drones (great article go read it), feeding of all those janitors, exotic dancers and of course the old woman who polishes your Head In A Jar collection too.

I may have been flippant in the previous paragraph but you have to see it from a role play perspective.

Quote:

3) now war immunity, guess its a pretty good advantage to PVE players, but wait, why is it deemed necessary to declare or to be able to declare war on PVE solo players? are they perceived threats?



I view very little distinction between a combat pilot and one that grinds level 4 missions up while watching a movie or reading a book. And Wars aren't just conducted for combat there COULD be a real economic reason. Missions are always more interesting when done as a group but as you specified pve solo players then are they a threat? Nope they're a target of opportunity, or a trap waiting to be sprung.

Quote:

4) "Hopefully, this will let player corporations compete on equal footing with NPC corporations."? equal footing? income? nullsec have all the goodies in terms of minerals and ratting, is it not? highsec corps do band together in exploration sites (mining) and wormholes. anyone care to elaborate?



Well now when the npc corp tax hits even if it's 11% or 15% I put it to you that joining an active and like minded corp within your own area AND operating in the same time zone as yourself you'll be better off isk wise.

A smaller share of a bigger pie is even tastier than trying to do it all by yourself, AND you get to share in the history of Eve. Where would the Doctor be without his assistant? Talking to himself as he dribbles about Daleks that can fly while sitting in a retirement home on the coast no doubt. It's a sad state of affairs and it leads me nicely in to my final paragraph.

I said I would tell you why I'm a "aye" man, so here goes, following on with the analogy of Doctor Who living out his final millenium in a retirement home on the coast with no companion to share an adventure with, it's the same reasons that Eve is a lot more than internet spaceships. The adventure is told BECAUSE of the companion, even if it happened without one wouldn't make MUCH difference except that link would be missing and any viewer may not 'get' the alien that is the Doctor and why he's doing what he does. The human companion provides an anchor point to 'reality', much the same way that a well - or even a moderately - run corporation can provide, so what is you're REALLY scared of, because your playing an online multi-player game solo or at least with as few ties as possible, so does the fear of rejection stop you from applying for corps?

Poz McAIDS
Posted - 2009.09.30 08:57:00 - [1079]
 

I run a computer shop, and we all play eve, this morning we were discussing this.

We came to a sort of conclusion that this could be a staggered tax to greater effect.

Tax ppl at less than 10m sp @ 10%
20m sp - 20%
30m sp - 30%

and so on, that way the more experienced you are the more there is a nudge to get you away from the noob corp. There really is no reason for a 40m sp pilot with a 15billion isk sihp to be in a noob corp.


I also agree that the corp chat in the noob corps is just horrible scamming all the time, so we'd not be losing anything there.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.30 09:20:00 - [1080]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 30/09/2009 09:20:42
Originally by: Poz McAIDS
Tax ppl at less than 10m sp @ 10%
20m sp - 20%
30m sp - 30%

and so on, that way the more experienced you are the more there is a nudge to get you away from the noob corp.

So you'll just force those players into easily disbanded 1-man corp? Explain why this is a benefit to the game? They'll still have the same effective immunity, but now have NO social interaction in the game. [ironic]Great idea![/ironic]
Originally by: Poz McAIDS
There really is no reason for a 40m sp pilot with a 15billion isk sihp to be in a noob corp.

Actually, there are plenty of reasons. Quite a few experienced players LIKE helping the new players coming into the game, and the NPC corp are the place to be for that. Other players don't want to participate in PvP, which is perfectly fine.

Like it or not, EVE has lots of players that are NOT in the game to PvP. It's not what they enjoy! I'm not one of them, but I am able to see their point of view.
What would you say if 'the carebears' were in charge of CCP and a ruling came down that forced you to pay for your opponents ship, cargo, implants and clone when you blew him up? Would that be OK?

Players of ALL types bring money to CCP to help develop the game we all like. Don't be so eager to force them out....
Originally by: Poz McAIDS
I also agree that the corp chat in the noob corps is just horrible scamming all the time, so we'd not be losing anything there.

You've CLEARLY not been in NPC corp chat lately!

Most of them are great! Always lots of people to chat to (in contrast to most small-medium corp), always new people coming in (in contrast to most small-medium corp), plenty of help for new people etc. There's little scamming going on, since once it happens plenty of people jump on the offender and advises newbies not to go for it.... ISK-sellers try once in a while, but the noobs gets adviced how the 'block' option works.

Note that I've got 2 mains in 0.0 corp, and 2 moneymakers in NPC corp. I can see both sides of the story, and contrary to you I can accept that some people might not want to play EVE 'my way'....

Please get over your disease that 'There is only one way to play EVE... MY way!'...


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