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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
Posted - 2009.09.24 07:03:00 - [781]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
The warm and fuzzy NPC corp no tax, no war structure is a bit out of whack with the whole risk vs reward aspect that EVE is based on.


I think it makes perfect sense that starter corps can't be wardecced, because roughly half of the people who play this would take great pleasure in making sure no new players join the game by ganking them relentlessly. But the corp tax is a long overdue way to urge them to leave after they get set up.

pussnheels
Amarr
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2009.09.24 07:14:00 - [782]
 

one question or clarification, does this also include FW npc corporations ?

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.24 07:23:00 - [783]
 

Originally by: pussnheels
one question or clarification, does this also include FW npc corporations ?


no

Gsptlsnz
Posted - 2009.09.24 07:42:00 - [784]
 

Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 24/09/2009 07:42:50
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
I think it makes perfect sense that starter corps can't be wardecced, because roughly half of the people who play this would take great pleasure in making sure no new players join the game by ganking them relentlessly. But the corp tax is a long overdue way to urge them to leave after they get set up.

Very good point about the nature of EvE players Prof T. But I think you, and the vast majority of EvE players who are long past the "frog kissing" stage of EvE, vastly overestimate the value of an NPC Corp tax.

The first thing a rookie to EvE learns is "trust nobody except RL friends". If you don't have RL friends in the game, it's a social vacuum. The trouble with an environment in which scamming, backstabbing, and ganking are respected, high-status activities is that it's next to impossible to separate honest players from trash. They sound exactly the same - if anything the scumbags are better at sounding like real people.

This is a major weakness of EvE as a MMO gane - it strongly discourages social contact. Some people will work hard to make contact anyway. Some won't. I have no social motivation to join some random group of strangers whom I can't trust. Quite the opposite - I dislike mixing with scumbags both IRL and in games, and I won't be forced to do so in a game.

PvP Corps are much better than player Corps in this respect, because there is no opportunity for backstabbing.

This 11% tax offers me a choice between bypassing it or leaving EvE. Bypassing it is the most likely of course. It isn't a significant factor in my plans for joining a player Corp.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.24 08:22:00 - [785]
 

Originally by: Gsptlsnz

Very good point about the nature of EvE players Prof T. But I think you, and the vast majority of EvE players who are long past the "frog kissing" stage of EvE, vastly overestimate the value of an NPC Corp tax.

The first thing a rookie to EvE learns is "trust nobody except RL friends". If you don't have RL friends in the game, it's a social vacuum. The trouble with an environment in which scamming, backstabbing, and ganking are respected, high-status activities is that it's next to impossible to separate honest players from trash. They sound exactly the same - if anything the scumbags are better at sounding like real people.

This is a major weakness of EvE as a MMO gane - it strongly discourages social contact. Some people will work hard to make contact anyway. Some won't. I have no social motivation to join some random group of strangers whom I can't trust. Quite the opposite - I dislike mixing with scumbags both IRL and in games, and I won't be forced to do so in a game.

PvP Corps are much better than player Corps in this respect, because there is no opportunity for backstabbing.

This 11% tax offers me a choice between bypassing it or leaving EvE. Bypassing it is the most likely of course. It isn't a significant factor in my plans for joining a player Corp.


Its not that hard to spot a scam if you ask the correct questions and do your research, same goes for when inviting new people to a corp.

Oddymandius
Minmatar
Red Federation
Posted - 2009.09.24 08:55:00 - [786]
 

Edited by: Oddymandius on 24/09/2009 08:58:30

The amusing thing about the people complaining about the loss of "social interaction" from people joining 1-player corps is that they're admitting they value that interaction at less than 11% of their monthly isk income. As the shallow human contact they get in an NPC corp is worth less to them than some loose change in an imaginary currency, the logical conclusion is that they're complaining about losing something they admit they don't really care about.

Great idea CCP. Very Happy

Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Not Found.
Posted - 2009.09.24 08:59:00 - [787]
 

Originally by: Oddymandius
The amusing thing about the people complaining about the loss of "social interaction" from people joining 1-player corps is that they're admitting they value that interaction at less than 11% of their monthly isk income. The shallow human contact they get in an NPC corp is worth less to them than some loose change in an imaginary currency.

Great idea CCP. Very Happy


CCP give us a wonderful tool for compensate it : Channel creation.

SAK NPC Corp managed to organize some small mining operations and tournaments. It is certainly not hard to "encourage" people to use one channel while they are in a 1-Man Corp.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.24 09:01:00 - [788]
 

Originally by: Oddymandius
Edited by: Oddymandius on 24/09/2009 08:56:40

The amusing thing about the people complaining about the loss of "social interaction" from people joining 1-player corps is that they're admitting they value that interaction at less than 11% of their monthly isk income. The shallow human contact they get in an NPC corp is worth less to them than some loose change in an imaginary currency - they're complaining about having something taken away that they also admit they don't really care about.

Great idea CCP. Very Happy


What is amusing about people outlining that Ccp´s decision will have the exact opposite effect of what Ccp hopes to accomplish with it?
And what makes it soo difficult to understand that a change that does in essence do the exact opposite of what it is supposed to do is a bad one ?

Gsptlsnz
Posted - 2009.09.24 09:26:00 - [789]
 

@Baltec
I've never been scammed in EvE. I listened while I was in rookie help, and read the forums, and have followed the main rule of EvE: trust nobody.

The issue is the very large investment in time to really get a feel for the members of a Corp, since the odds of finding a Corp with only honest players is so low.

Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand. Time (per Corp) to get a feel for the members of the Corp: a week elapsed, a few hours effective time (active chatting). An 11% tax on missions hardly influences the tradeoff.

Doddy
Excidium.
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2009.09.24 09:31:00 - [790]
 

Originally by: Gsptlsnz

Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand.


TYpical view tbh, totally wrong ofc. Hundreds of peopletrust each other regularly in eve and very rarely do they actually get screwed over. 90% of eve playersare fairly freindly individuals with no hidden agenda whatsoever. Another 5% won't screw you over because you aren't worth it unless you are either filthy rich or politically powerful. The other 5% are greifers and scammers, the majority of whom are in npc corps.

The main rule of eve is not "trust nobody", it is "make freinds quickly".

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.24 09:32:00 - [791]
 

Originally by: Gsptlsnz
@Baltec
I've never been scammed in EvE. I listened while I was in rookie help, and read the forums, and have followed the main rule of EvE: trust nobody.

The issue is the very large investment in time to really get a feel for the members of a Corp, since the odds of finding a Corp with only honest players is so low.

Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand. Time (per Corp) to get a feel for the members of the Corp: a week elapsed, a few hours effective time (active chatting). An 11% tax on missions hardly influences the tradeoff.



I find it the other way. I have never been in a bad corp that you seem to fear and even as alliences go, I have never been shafted by one. I refuse to belive I am the luckest man alive so really, your overreacting.

Joe
Umbra Legion
Shadow Empire.
Posted - 2009.09.24 09:43:00 - [792]
 

Its pretty simple. They're going to increase the registration fee for corp and Alliance creationRolling Eyes


Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.24 11:03:00 - [793]
 

Originally by: Joe
Its pretty simple. They're going to increase the registration fee for corp and Alliance creationRolling Eyes




Why would they increase the registration fee of Alliance creation ??

Kara Mitsui
Perkone
Posted - 2009.09.24 11:35:00 - [794]
 

This is great, it's looong overdue. But it's nowhere near enough.

Now, I'm not one of these misanthropic jerks who are baying for carebear tears, in fact for the last 6 months I've been carebearing myself because RL has stopped me participating in corp life.

This change isn't to make it easier for pirates to wardec people. it's nothing to do with punishing people for running missions. The only reason for this is that it's good for the game to get more and more people into player-run corps. More player corps = more competition for resources = more fights, it's as simple as that.

I've always thought NPC corps should be for noobs and people who are between player corps, not permanent homes. So while this tax is a good start, it needs to go a LOT further.

Ultimately, NPC corp tax should start at 10% and increase by 5% every month you are in the corp, capped at 75%. 11% just isn't a very big deal, especially if you are looting and salvaging as well. In fact, for the chat and other benefits you get it's pretty cheap.

Besides, I've never been in a player corp with less than 10% tax, and the better corps have 25% or higher - just to discourage carebearing. So this tax isn't a real incentive to leave.

But over time they will ramp it up, and if they implemented it as a sliding scale as I mention above, there will come a point where people will just have to leave the safety of the nest.

As for the people in here and other threads laughing about carebear tears, well you're just embarassing yourselves. There are a few carebears that are unhappy about this, but the level of whining is less than 10% of the whining when pvp stuff is nerfed. The carrier nef proposals? The speed nerfs? Suiciding nerfs? The whining on those occasions was epic and the tears could fill an ocean.

I would go so far as to say that the general response from PVE people to this news has been very mature and sensible, and the rest of you could try and emulate this the next time they nerf something *you* do.

Davion Nydor
Posted - 2009.09.24 11:47:00 - [795]
 

As someone who has spent significant time in player corps both empire and 0.0 in the past but has no wish ever to do so again this change is going to have little if any impact on me. It certainly will not get me into a player corp.

Like most veteran players I already have more than 1 account and at least 4 spare slots for ceo alts. 2 new 1 character corps where created yesterday by a pair of these(and there will be two more when I next log this second account on). Gives me 4 corps for my main to live in tax free. Should be enough to avoid wardeccers, griefers and other assorted pests. If not I can easily create a another 2. If someone wants to wardec 6 corps to chase my main around good luck to them - only then will he go back to the npc corp and take the 3% hit for as long as the enemy wants to run 6 wardecs on empty corps.

Net impact of change which has cost ccp goodwill amongst a significant chunk of their player base - zero.
Not a smart plan.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.24 11:52:00 - [796]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 24/09/2009 01:48:28
Quote:
The rolleyes emote is an emote. It applies the same on the internet as in rl. In case of PrismX post it underlines him being annoyed and shows everyone else him being arogant.

PrismX used Laughing to indicate humor, as I pointed out. "I" used Rolling Eyes for obvious reasons. Try to pay attention.




Prism X missed the subtle but important difference between "I am laughing at you" and "I am laughing with you".

His post was "I am laughing at you". Not, humour but derision.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.24 12:07:00 - [797]
 

Originally by: Kara Mitsui
The only reason for this is that it's good for the game to get more and more people into player-run corps. More player corps = more competition for resources = more fights, it's as simple as that.

You're missing one crucial point....

The people this affects are mission runners. Missions are an UNLIMITED resource. An unlimited resource doesn't foster competition, thus no fighting either.

All those new 1-man corp will NOT be wardec'ing each other.....

Nihiliax
Posted - 2009.09.24 12:28:00 - [798]
 

Edited by: Nihiliax on 24/09/2009 13:15:42
Other than the mission-runners themselves this proposed change is really not going to affect anyone. Sure the high-sec war-deccing gank merchants think they are gonna get a lot of new targets to shoot at but as has been demonstrated it isn't really going to pan out like that.

They make statements that nobody should be 100% safe in this game and then log in to pop another unarmed shuttle in their gank-fit BS, making sure all the time to stay in high-sec where CONCORD can protect them from the real pvpers. What these people are doing is the equivalent of punching out all the 5 year olds in their local Primary School so they can pretend they are the Heavyweight Champion of the World, and for what?

So they can point proudly at their lickle e-todger and smile at how big it looks, all standy-uppy in their Batman Y-fronts.

Awesome guys, just awesome.

Hamshoe
Posted - 2009.09.24 12:30:00 - [799]
 

Originally by: Kara Mitsui

Now, I'm not one of these misanthropic jerks who are baying for carebear tears, in fact for the last 6 months I've been carebearing myself because RL has stopped me participating in corp life.


I'm in a similar situation, and mine's likely to continue for years. I guess that's why your sliding scale idea doesn't appeal in the least. It's not money or safety that keeps me out of a player corp, it's just convienience.

There are already huge parts of this game I won't ever get to be a part of, but that's the RL/EVE balance I've got and that's the way it works. A sliding scale tax like you propose will encourage me to leave an NPC corp, but it won't encourage me to seek out a situation that expects more time or where other people will be counting on me for things I cannot provide. I'll go to a corp of my own or I'll come to the unwelcome conclusion that's it EVE's potential I like more than the reality (and yes I'll take my fifty billion accounts, and no you can't have my stuff. Cool ).

I'll say it again: Making the alternative suck more is the wrong way to encourage a particular behavior unless you've got a truly captive audience.

Bjron
Posted - 2009.09.24 13:57:00 - [800]
 

27 pages over play internet money?

WTF?


Captain Booyah
Dawn Vigil
Posted - 2009.09.24 14:17:00 - [801]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Sizzle Anburn
Stick (punishment) - "If you don't group we're going to do something to penalize you." NPC corp tax in this case.
The problem with that is that they're just perceptions.

Carrot: if you join a PC corp, you can get the benefit of lower taxes.

It is seen as a stick because you think of 0% taxes as the norm. For new players, it will be a carrot because that norm no longer exists.


Corporate Management, 11m 15s.

This skill increases your income earned from mission rewards and NPC pirate bounties by 11%.

Player corporations with less than 11% taxation are still going to have to explain to the potential recruit why they should sacrifice ISK to the corp. After all, real corporations pay people to work for *them*.

To the thread as a whole:

Bickering about where the NPC corp tax "should" be is almost pointless as anyone who doesn't see mission running as an end in itself will tax evade to avoid wasted effort.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.24 14:21:00 - [802]
 

Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 24/09/2009 01:48:28
Quote:
The rolleyes emote is an emote. It applies the same on the internet as in rl. In case of PrismX post it underlines him being annoyed and shows everyone else him being arogant.

PrismX used Laughing to indicate humor, as I pointed out. "I" used Rolling Eyes for obvious reasons. Try to pay attention.




Prism X missed the subtle but important difference between "I am laughing at you" and "I am laughing with you".

His post was "I am laughing at you". Not, humour but derision.


My, you are a sensitive lad. Got all that from an obviously non-practical statement and a smiley face did you? Laughing


Daemonspirit
Six Degrees of Separation
Posted - 2009.09.24 15:23:00 - [803]
 

Edited by: Daemonspirit on 24/09/2009 15:23:34
Eve needs an online data base of Corps currently recruiting. Bumpable weekly, no activity in 10 days automatically cancels the post.

And it needs to be part of the tutorial.

vOv thats my idea. Is my idea any more effective at making someone move who doesn't want to?ugh

edit: Sorry - "In game" database...Embarassed



Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.24 15:56:00 - [804]
 

Originally by: Daemonspirit
Edited by: Daemonspirit on 24/09/2009 15:23:34
Eve needs an online data base of Corps currently recruiting. Bumpable weekly, no activity in 10 days automatically cancels the post.

And it needs to be part of the tutorial.

vOv thats my idea. Is my idea any more effective at making someone move who doesn't want to?ugh

edit: Sorry - "In game" database...Embarassed




This yes. And it needs an UI that makes it easy to compare them with each other based on different attributes like
Size, TimeZone, Type of Activity, VoiceComms etc. For example somone is looking for a small eu based pirate corporation based in wormhole space, he could just go and tick checkboxes in the ui and get the desired results.

Additionally a few other ideas to boost player corporations:

- Rework the corporation Logo-"Designer". It shows it´s age and the corp logo´s do too.
- If a corpmate tries to shoot another corpmate, make it consentual through a yes/no-dialog.
- Display their logo´s /name´s on the billboards
- Increase wardeccing costs (Make wardecs meaningfull)
- Based on some randomness and the decisions a new player made in the tutorials (For example which training courses he made)
suggest player corporations for him to join that fit his style of play.
- Allow CEO´s to record a small audio snipped (through eve voice code?) about their corporation and attach it to their ingame info.

Roger Midnight
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:14:00 - [805]
 

11% isn't going to influence anyone to leave the NPC corps (except perhaps to do the 1 man corp trick). The worst case scenario of a bad corp choice for a carebear is just too expensive. (e.g. Joining a corp and having a rogue member pop your Hulk or CNR while Concord flies by eating donuts).

So basically, all that will happen is people in NPC corps will have less isk to spend.

How will that attract new subscribers or retain current subscribers?


Cyrus Doul
E0 Corp
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:33:00 - [806]
 

Edited by: Cyrus Doul on 24/09/2009 16:34:19
take any account in NPC corp for over 90 days total, and by total i mean forever. no going 90 days then 2 seconds in alt corp, ninety days. drop into pirate corp and strip ability to be in non pirate npc corp. RTM bots solved either by pirate kill or funtime wardec. if they aren't rtm just find a corp that likes the mission runners ant they can go there. or make their own and try to avoid dec.

Gsptlsnz
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:36:00 - [807]
 

Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 24/09/2009 16:37:11
Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Gsptlsnz

Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand.


TYpical view tbh, totally wrong ofc. Hundreds of peopletrust each other regularly in eve and very rarely do they actually get screwed over. 90% of eve playersare fairly freindly individuals with no hidden agenda whatsoever. Another 5% won't screw you over because you aren't worth it unless you are either filthy rich or politically powerful. The other 5% are greifers and scammers, the majority of whom are in npc corps.

The main rule of eve is not "trust nobody", it is "make freinds quickly".

My rookie experience does not match this information. Not even close.

You may be correct all the same. But the vast majority of more experienced players I've met have been lowlifes, so I'm gong with "trust no-one".

I'm astonished this isn't seen as a problem TBH. The game is fine, but the players you actually "meet" are relentlessly hostile to rookies. Who are least able to avoid trouble, or defend against it. All the childish nonsense in "local" and forums (like the inane meme about drinking player tears) really give it away. This is the face of EvE to new players who aren't "connected" (able to leverage RL friends or their social skills to get them established painlessly). It really doesn't matter if somewhere out there in the "leet" parts of EvE there are real gamers - the ones I "meet" are mostly trash.

DarkFollower
Amarr
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:44:00 - [808]
 

Are you guys kidding me , are people actually upset of 100k isk ?

i don't really get what's the big fuss about this , are you guys that greedy that you look at the few millions you lose to tax when you are making hundreds of millions in a few hours


Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:48:00 - [809]
 

Originally by: DarkFollower
Are you guys kidding me , are people actually upset of 100k isk ?

i don't really get what's the big fuss about this , are you guys that greedy that you look at the few millions you lose to tax when you are making hundreds of millions in a few hours




Hi,

Thanks for the bump.

You can find multiple answers to your Question inbetween pages 1 and 26 of this thread.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.24 16:57:00 - [810]
 

Originally by: Gsptlsnz
Edited by: Gsptlsnz on 24/09/2009 16:37:11
Originally by: Doddy
Originally by: Gsptlsnz

Assuming that every second player in EvE is a scumbag (a conservative assumption), the odds of my being able to stay in a 10-man Corp are 1 in a thousand.


TYpical view tbh, totally wrong ofc. Hundreds of peopletrust each other regularly in eve and very rarely do they actually get screwed over. 90% of eve playersare fairly freindly individuals with no hidden agenda whatsoever. Another 5% won't screw you over because you aren't worth it unless you are either filthy rich or politically powerful. The other 5% are greifers and scammers, the majority of whom are in npc corps.

The main rule of eve is not "trust nobody", it is "make freinds quickly".

My rookie experience does not match this information. Not even close.

You may be correct all the same. But the vast majority of more experienced players I've met have been lowlifes, so I'm gong with "trust no-one".

I'm astonished this isn't seen as a problem TBH. The game is fine, but the players you actually "meet" are relentlessly hostile to rookies. Who are least able to avoid trouble, or defend against it. All the childish nonsense in "local" and forums (like the inane meme about drinking player tears) really give it away. This is the face of EvE to new players who aren't "connected" (able to leverage RL friends or their social skills to get them established painlessly). It really doesn't matter if somewhere out there in the "leet" parts of EvE there are real gamers - the ones I "meet" are mostly trash.


Strange, my corp took on a few nubs barely out of the tutorial so that we had pilots who we could mould into pvp right away and not worry about them being rich but clueless. If we treated every new player like dirt then we would never expand.


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