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AsheraII
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:39:00 - [721]
 

Originally by: Arcelian
So whats to stop someone from just making their own one or two man corp and putting the tax to 0%?

Wardecs, since it makes them a legal target to be shot *anywhere* by another corp.

Though I'm not sure wardeccing every 1-2 men corp you encounter just to get your PvP shots in highsec will be a really profitable experience. People just need to move to some other set of starsystems to get away from you, while it costs your corp 2m isk to start the war. By the time the war is officially started, the target mini-corp is notified and will probably just move away.

So yes, w'll probably see many more 1-2 men lonewolf corps appearing now.

Katarina Shadows
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:55:00 - [722]
 

Edited by: Katarina Shadows on 23/09/2009 11:55:10
Originally by: Kherho S1n

whats wrong with you? cant you argue without personal attack in every post? do you know me that you can expect something from me? my replay is a reaction of your personal attacks against ppl in here combined with your arrogance. i dont believe it would be constructive to delete posts, equal if you think they are usefull. the last posts only became non sensible and non serious becouse you beginn to ride on personal attacks. lets keep this thematically and not offensive.


There is nothing wrong with me but I thank you most graciously for your expression of concern for my wellbeing.
Yes I am more than capable of having an argument without resorting to personal attack and in fact I maintain I have done so throughout, however, please feel free to identify the person I have attacked with any of my posts if you construe otherwise.
No I do not know you and in fact I only find myself conversing with you as you took it upon yourself to single me out and attempt to deconstruct my comments by partially quoting them to the point they lost context. That does not tend to be a very successful debating technique, by the way, as it is too easy to rebut.

You claim to make a reply (or at least I believe that is what you intended to say) to personal attacks made by myself and again I would ask you please to identify the person I have attacked with any of my posts. When debating a topic it is a far more successful strategy to attack the argument and not the person making the argument and as I am aware of this it tends to be the tactic I employ. Pointing out that many of the arguments being made lack maturity is not a personal attack it is merely a statement of fact that anyone can verify by reading back through the (to date) 24 pages of posts.
You claim I make personal attacks instead of argument and then proceed to call me arrogant. OK I will, for the sake of expedience, ignore the blatant irony and instead point out that arrogance is defined as unfounded conviction in one's own belief. Since it is immediately viable for anyone choosing to do so to read back through the pages of this thread and identify countless immature arguments being made I would postulate that my beliefs are therefore not unfounded. Hence I fail to see how this fulfills the definition of arrogance.

It would be difficult for anyone to deny there are a lot of children posting in this thread and also that a lot of the comments being made lack maturity. I chose to point this out as many such comments add nothing of worth and serve only to inflame what is obviously a very emotive subject. For some reason you chose to take offence at that but I can assure you that, other than my questioning what exactly you hoped to achieve by taking my comments out of context, nothing I have stated was aimed at you personally. I suspect you could not state the same in reverse.

AsheraII
Posted - 2009.09.23 11:55:00 - [723]
 

Originally by: Ukucia
They currently interact with others via the NPC corp channel. They just don't want others telling them what to do (be in a player corp) or have to tell others what to do (create their own corp). But they'll still chat.

I'd rather be completely corpless than in an NPC corp. Game mechanics just don't allow it.
Oh, and this is a recurring question in rookie help chat I might add: "Can I be not in a corp, not even an NPC one?". I see it a few times a day, and I don't even have chat constantly open, only while I'm docked.

Sometimes while bored and docked, I enter rookie chat while I still can. I never, *ever* even look at corp chat. I'd rather close my chat windows than minimize them. Funny enough, the only options available for that window are PIN and MINIMIZE.

Hamshoe
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:22:00 - [724]
 

Edited by: Hamshoe on 23/09/2009 12:23:06
Originally by: Ranger 1
... At worse it levels certain playing fields a bit. ...


The official line is still that this is intended to encourage players to join player run corporations.

The obvious approach to that goal is to improve the player corp experience.

Deciding to make the alternative to the goal suck to an equal degree is the very definition of fail.


Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:32:00 - [725]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
... and corp jumping to avoid war decs can get you banned...

Nope! Please look at this then....
Originally by: GM Nythanos
Hello,

For #1, Closing a corporation and opening a new one with the same members is allowed, and the people who declared war on your now closed corporation can declare a new war on your new corporation if they choose to do so.

For #2, Using alt corps to increase the cost of wars against your corporation or alliance is prohibited.

To help clarify this, there are restrictions with regards to joining and leaving corporation, such as mentioned here:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2317&tid=1

This is an official GM ruling posted on EO less than 3 months ago.....

Ok, it does speak about closing a corp and opening another one and not directly about hopping between corp, but this is how 1-man corp WOULD do it since you can do that in 5 seconds (at a minor ISK cost).

Zantris
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:46:00 - [726]
 

Edited by: Zantris on 23/09/2009 12:46:32
The problem isn't 1 man corps avoiding wardecs, its that the wardec mechanics suck.

Until you place mechanics in that prevent larger corps from picking on newb/smaller player corps in what basically equates to sanctioned no-risk highsec piracy, players won't leave the NPC corps.

Wardecs are great when its a actual fair fight, but 99% of the time its a bigger dog ****ing all over a puppy. Put more limitations on wardecs and you'll see more players coming out of NPC corps. At the same time you get rid of this lame no-risk piracy that wardeccing has evolved into.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:49:00 - [727]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 23/09/2009 12:49:07
Originally by: AsheraII
Originally by: Arcelian
So whats to stop someone from just making their own one or two man corp and putting the tax to 0%?

Wardecs, since it makes them a legal target to be shot *anywhere* by another corp.

Allow me to educate you....

Corp A pays 2m ISK to wardec corp B (a 1-man corp)
Member of corp B logs on, sees he has an active wardec.
Member of corp B press the 'Disband' button on his corp page.
Ex-member of corp B press the 'Create' button on his corp page (cost 1.6m ISK).
Ex-member of corp B is now a member of non-wardec'ed corp C.
Corp A fumes in silent anger at their wasted 2m ISK!

Seriously, wardec's are a paper tiger.....

Kherho S1n
Posted - 2009.09.23 12:59:00 - [728]
 

Edited by: Kherho S1n on 23/09/2009 13:00:06
Edited by: Kherho S1n on 23/09/2009 12:59:40
Originally by: Kerfira
Edited by: Kerfira on 23/09/2009 12:49:07
Originally by: AsheraII
Originally by: Arcelian
So whats to stop someone from just making their own one or two man corp and putting the tax to 0%?

Wardecs, since it makes them a legal target to be shot *anywhere* by another corp.

Allow me to educate you....

Corp A pays 2m ISK to wardec corp B (a 1-man corp)
Member of corp B logs on, sees he has an active wardec.
Member of corp B press the 'Disband' button on his corp page.
Ex-member of corp B press the 'Create' button on his corp page (cost 1.6m ISK).
Ex-member of corp B is now a member of non-wardec'ed corp C.
Corp A fumes in silent anger at their wasted 2m ISK!


Seriously, wardec's are a paper tiger.....



thats right. and if they want to fool you completely they join npc corp.. the easiest step to get away wardec. we see that after we declare war to a macrominer corp.

Hydra Ki
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2009.09.23 13:22:00 - [729]
 

11% is too low for all the benifits the npc corporations offer to thier pilots. Adjusting that tax rate higher, like 53 to 86% tax rate would be more benificial to the npc corp player communities.

Fees, Export and Import Taxes could also benifit the players in npc corps as well, for npc corporations excellent assistance in refining, manufactering, contracts, market buy, sell orders, and adjustments to existing orders.

This next patch is looking great so far, keep it up guys.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.23 14:26:00 - [730]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 23/09/2009 14:28:10
Originally by: Hydra Ki
Adjusting that tax rate higher, like 53 to 86% tax rate would be more benificial to the npc corp player communities.

86%?? Are you serious? Have you gone completely mad? That is WAY TOO unreasonable.

I'm thinking more like 88%. That is more in line. Don't you think?

Hydra Ki
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2009.09.23 14:43:00 - [731]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 23/09/2009 14:28:10
Originally by: Hydra Ki
Adjusting that tax rate higher, like 53 to 86% tax rate would be more benificial to the npc corp player communities.

86%?? Are you serious? Have you gone completely mad? That is WAY TOO unreasonable.

I'm thinking more like 88%. That is more in line. Don't you think?


After giving your tax evaluation proposal considerable thought, i concur with your judgement.

The NPC Coporation benifits and safety in high security space has been given away and taken for granted for far too long.

Ath Amon
Posted - 2009.09.23 14:58:00 - [732]
 

11% is an ok isksink, but if the purpose is to push players out of npc corps i dont see working, people will just stay there (or at best join 1man corps) for the safety or will start to leave the game if more extreme measures will be put in place

i think people will need some "protection" for their gamestyle. wardecs need to be dealt with as too many times it becomes a way to get some cheap kills if not to harass people... same can be said for corp scams...

make corps more safe and desirable and people will join them

X Kent
REUNI0N
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.09.23 15:10:00 - [733]
 

11% is nothing, it will not move that 4-5 year old all faction fitted caldari navy raven monkey away from his state war academy.
Tax should be 20%-25%

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.23 15:14:00 - [734]
 

Originally by: X Kent
11% is nothing, it will not move that 4-5 year old all faction fitted caldari navy raven monkey away from his state war academy.
Tax should be 20%-25%

The real question is will this change be enough to satisfy the spiteful name-calling haters such as yourself.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.23 15:16:00 - [735]
 

Originally by: X Kent
11% is nothing, it will not move that 4-5 year old all faction fitted caldari navy raven monkey away from his state war academy.
Tax should be 20%-25%


Actually now I hope that Ccp will raise it to 60%. Just so that all of you will see that tax is not why people stay in Npc corps.

Blackthorney
Posted - 2009.09.23 17:37:00 - [736]
 

I'm not entire positive, but I think upon checking my "transactions" wallet log this morning, the tax was being applied to the sale of loot to buy orders. If the 11% tax will be applied to everything, I'm definitely going to make myself a 1-man corp.

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.23 17:52:00 - [737]
 

Originally by: Blackthorney
I'm not entire positive, but I think upon checking my "transactions" wallet log this morning, the tax was being applied to the sale of loot to buy orders. If the 11% tax will be applied to everything, I'm definitely going to make myself a 1-man corp.

Market taxes != corp taxes. There have always been market taxes.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.23 18:06:00 - [738]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 23/09/2009 14:28:10
Originally by: Hydra Ki
Adjusting that tax rate higher, like 53 to 86% tax rate would be more benificial to the npc corp player communities.

86%?? Are you serious? Have you gone completely mad? That is WAY TOO unreasonable.

I'm thinking more like 88%. That is more in line. Don't you think?


69% at least it has some other connotation.


Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.23 18:38:00 - [739]
 

Okay, try looking at it this way.
You stick it to the man by forming your own 1 person corp. Go you. But then you find yourself missing corp chat and the several friends that you had made in your NPC corp. You know, the ones that you actually trust and enjoy flying with.
So one of these people convo's you, and lo, he admits that he misses the old gang as well and is considering going back despite the 11%.
And before you know it you find yourself saying those evil words "Well ya know, if you joined my corp we'd still have no tax and would share the same corp chat again. It might even be handy to have that corp hanger for us to both have access to."
Before you know it, not only is he in your corp but so are all of your old buddies from the NPC corp, having a great time and making more isk than ever before by working more closely and easily together.

Then it hits you, and it chills your heart. You have become the enemy, you have become the man, you cannot be trusted, you player corp CEO you. So you boss everyone around for awhile, turn into a complete jerk, and ultimately steal the corp wallet... because, ya know, thats what they all do. To sum up, I heartily concur. How dare CCP give you incentive to go in this directionExclamation


Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.23 18:51:00 - [740]
 

Edited by: Julian Lynq on 23/09/2009 18:52:00
Originally by: Ranger 1




miss corp chat ? friends from the npc corp ?

shall I ever miss corp chat I will chat in local. Same quality conversation in there..

I am not making friends in corp chat either. I am a solo player. If I could I would be in no corp at all.
It doesn´t make sense anyway to be employed by one corp, but do the actual work for another.


but maybe you look at it this way:

Ccp makes changes that does not profit you, or ANYONE. They try fixes without knowing what the problem is. They are become too arogant to even argue with the players about it. Even worse they insult their paying customers and accuse them of RMT trading only because they are in npc corps. Again: the uproar is not about the change it is about everything surrounding it beginning with how it was thought off ending with how it is communicated. And this kind of Ccp behaviour can and propably will hit you too at some point. then they will call YOU stuff and tell you that your style of play now doesnt fit anymore in their vision of the game. mark my words.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:13:00 - [741]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 23/09/2009 19:24:24
Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway. Smile

By the way, CCP never said all NPC corp members are into RMT. However, since it "is" a widespread problem in NPC corps this step also helps to address this issue. Bonus points.

In the many years since beta I have often been seriously affected by game play changes far more sweeping than this. Frankly, this in nothing... a tempest in a tea cup if you will. The effect on people in NPC corps is minimal at best (you can reference people using this same point as an arguement not to do it), and has had pretty much universal support including many people that are still in NPC corps. This is an inducement, and a balancing, nothing more. Happens all the time in this game, as it should.
And as far a CCP "justifying and explaining" their decision... you got a concise statement. I'm afraid they aren't going to post the meeting notes from the last few months for your perusal. If it were a big deal they might go more in depth, but tbh it is not.

Hamshoe
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:21:00 - [742]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway. Smile


Maybe that's because if they wanted to be a CEO they'd already be doing it, and if they wanted to work for a CEO they'd be doing that.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:21:00 - [743]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway. Smile


And some of the other half of the most compelling arguments have been from people that are lone wolf players. However I note with grace that you agree
that the arguments of the npc player people are the some of the most compelling.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.23 19:26:00 - [744]
 

Originally by: Hamshoe
Originally by: Ranger 1
Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway. Smile


Maybe that's because if they wanted to be a CEO they'd already be doing it, and if they wanted to work for a CEO they'd be doing that.

Why is that so hard to understand?


Why is it so hard to understand that you can continue just as you are? Laughing

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:01:00 - [745]
 

Edited by: Julian Lynq on 23/09/2009 20:02:08
Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 23/09/2009 19:24:24
Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway. Smile

By the way, CCP never said all NPC corp members are into RMT. However, since it "is" a widespread problem in NPC corps this step also helps to address this issue. Bonus points.

In the many years since beta I have often been seriously affected by game play changes far more sweeping than this. Frankly, this in nothing... a tempest in a tea cup if you will. The effect on people in NPC corps is minimal at best (you can reference people using this same point as an arguement not to do it), and has had pretty much universal support including many people that are still in NPC corps. This is an inducement, and a balancing, nothing more. Happens all the time in this game, as it should.
And as far a CCP "justifying and explaining" their decision... you got a concise statement. I'm afraid they aren't going to post the meeting notes from the last few months for your perusal. If it were a big deal they might go more in depth, but tbh it is not.



If it were not a big deal there were not two threads >20 pages about controverse discussion about it.

Saying this step addresses the issue of rmt trading is complete nonsense. 11% more tax address RMT trading ? how ?
Because RMT traders will now join PVP alliances ? Is that your logic ?

And what CCP Prism said remains what he said. Wether or not you interpret it to be towards all NPC corp members
it is full of arrogance towards them.

Originally by: CCP Prism X
For my part, I had wet dreams about making it 100%.. cause I really dislike people farming ISK with immunity and intending to sell it through RMT. Thankfully they don't let draconian little me design stuff. Laughing




Hamshoe
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:08:00 - [746]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Hamshoe
Originally by: Ranger 1
Interestingly, some of the most compelling arguements have been from people swearing vehemently that their NPC corp mates are a tight knit, fun loving group that do ops together most of the time anyway. Smile


Maybe that's because if they wanted to be a CEO they'd already be doing it, and if they wanted to work for a CEO they'd be doing that.

Why is that so hard to understand?


Why is it so hard to understand that you can continue just as you are? Laughing




It's not.

The point you're avoiding is that if people wanted to be in player corps, they already would be. I mean, it is a pretty evident possibility in the game. It's not some mysterious, hidden mechanic. Some folks just choose not to.I don't think they should be penalized for that choice, and I don't understand the jealousy of people who do want to be in player corps.

I also think it's terrible design. Imagine the following:

You build a toll road. You want people to use the toll road because, well, it makes you money. Turns out people who use the toll road are likely to use it longer, and thus make you more money. Now, a certain percentage of drivers just don't like your nice shiny toll road, in spite of all it's obvious advantages. Maybe they don't like the scenery, the other drivers, the toll booths, the accident rate, whatever. Now, in order to convince more drivers to use your toll road do you:

a.) Improve the service on the toll road, provide easier access, clearer signage, etc.

b.) Try to make the other routes people use suck as much as your toll road.

Option "b" is a confession of failure. I don't understand the support for that.

Ethaet
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:28:00 - [747]
 

Goodbye EVE, you will be missed Sad

Lt Forge
Pilots Of Honour
Aeternus.
Posted - 2009.09.23 20:56:00 - [748]
 

Edited by: Lt Forge on 23/09/2009 20:56:22
Congratulations CCP, you have officially turned all NPC corps into Caldari/American corps! Laughing

Potaine
Posted - 2009.09.23 21:40:00 - [749]
 

My thought on this proposed tax is, What is wrong with you people, what good will it do?. Is it now the policy of CCP to try to Force people into playing the game the way they desire? Quit judging people and move on let them play and enjoy the game even if it isn't the way you want it. This is supposed to be some kind of entertainment, so now your going to introduce a tax to punish people for not doing as you wish. Even though most of have been able to enjoy the refuge of a NPC corp.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2009.09.23 21:41:00 - [750]
 

Quote:
Saying this step addresses the issue of rmt trading is complete nonsense. 11% more tax address RMT trading ? how ?

Because that 11% takes a bite out of their real money, which makes it harder for them to compete with legitamate alternatives among other things.
Quote:
And what CCP Prism said remains what he said. Wether or not you interpret it to be towards all NPC corp members

Your flunk the internet. Figure out what the Laughing icon in his quote means, and while your at it look up Rolling Eyes. You are losing more credibility by the moment.
You know what, screw being nice. You've been nicely, but directly, told that NPC corps are intended to be temporary retreats by the people that designed and continue to develop the game. You have found that you can exploit them, not only due to personal preference but also for personal gain (no tax, no chance of war dec). Still being nice, they have removed a portion of the advantages you enjoy to encourage you to get with the program... and you freak out. As they continue to make tweaks to bring EVE more firmly in line with their original design goal, I have a feeling you are going to become a very unhappy camper. Perhaps you should take the hint.




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