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Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:01:00 - [451]
 

Originally by: Uronksur Suth

Yes, and as for your wanting protection, this change means that you actually have to pay for it now.

And if you don't want to pay, feel free to join a player corp with a tax rate more to your liking. Or hell, just train Corp Management 1 and make your own.



Again, I donīt want protection. I want that everyone sees that you are a fail pvpīer who needs to kill pve players so he can at least get a killmail too and is additionally not intelligent enough to grasp that this change will not in any way produce more targets for him. In short: the reason you are in favour of this change is exactly as void as the change being sucessfull in fullfilling the stated goal.

Jack Jombardo
Amarr
Cosmic Allianz
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:08:00 - [452]
 

Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 21/09/2009 21:14:40
Originally by: Cassiopeia Draco
Originally by: Jack Jombardo

The real reason Mission Runner do not want to be in a player corp are Wardecs.

CCP, if you want them in player corps you must give them somethink like "no, I don't want to play war with you".

It is TO easy and TO cheep to declair war.

Declare war must cost a minimum of 1 billion/week peer member of the target corp to declare it! Doubling with each week (2. week = 2 bil/week peer member, 3. week = 4 bil/week peer member and so on).
And if this target corp pays a tax to CONCORD (NOT to the aggressor!) they can declare this hostil action as illigal (ak disable it). This has to be expensive too for sure so they had to decide, if they fight or pay.
Both action MUST hurt the wallet if you want them to PvP.

With this you will bring much MUCH more mission runner into player corps then you will with this stupid tax idear.
And you will get big corps instead of 1 mans as it will be to expensive, to wardec a 100 man corp ;).


Way to go about totally killing the wardec system, can i have whatever you're smoking or drinking. Rolling Eyes

1 bil/week is too much, although i agree that current wardec fees are too low, and should be increased, maybe 20mil for a corp, 100mil per alliance.

The Chances of getting having a war declared are small, of the last 4 corps I've been in, they've been wardecced 3 times, once because the alliance was decced, once because a noob smacktalked the wrong person, and once because another industrial corp wanted us of that region when we started to undercut them.


Well, all corps I had been in had been wardeced once a month minimum.

The last wardec was a 1 man corp just to shot one of our highsec tower.
He declared war but refuced it some houres later so he had a timeframe of maybe 10 hours where we sleep (yes, some people do it).

Clear indicator, wardecs are far to easy and far to cheap! And with the current implementation they can be abused to easy to grif-play.

And this is, why player decide to stay in NPC corps. They do NOT like to be helpless victims becouse of broken wardec system. So if you like them in NPC corps CCP - fix your borked wardec system!

Wardec just becouse someone talk in local? If you want to do -> PAY a high price for wardecing!
Wardec becouse you want to grif? -> PAY for it a high price!
If you wardec someone -> life with it, that you can't take it back for 1 week!
If you wardec someone -> life with it, that he might pay CONCORD to figth for him (ak declaring this wardec as illegal).

Pirates allways talk about risk v rewared.
WHERE is the risk for this 1 man corp when he knows "they sleep at this time and if they awake the war is over allready"?
WHERE is the risk for this PvP speced 20 man corp to declare a 5 man mining/producer corp war?

If you talk about risk v reward .... then bring the risk to wardecs @CCP!
As there is NO risk atm!

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:10:00 - [453]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Uronksur Suth

Yes, and as for your wanting protection, this change means that you actually have to pay for it now.

And if you don't want to pay, feel free to join a player corp with a tax rate more to your liking. Or hell, just train Corp Management 1 and make your own.



Again, I donīt want protection. I want that everyone sees that you are a fail pvpīer who needs to kill pve players so he can at least get a killmail too and is additionally not intelligent enough to grasp that this change will not in any way produce more targets for him. In short: the reason you are in favour of this change is exactly as void as the change being sucessfull in fullfilling the stated goal.



I see you are also not too great with the idea of war dec piracy. There some very expensive ships out there which are just ripe for pillaging.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:11:00 - [454]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Again, I donīt want protection. I want that everyone sees that you are a fail pvpīer who needs to kill pve players so he can at least get a killmail too and is additionally not intelligent enough to grasp that this change will not in any way produce more targets for him. In short: the reason you are in favour of this change is exactly as void as the change being sucessfull in fullfilling the stated goal.


The ironic thing is I don't PvP. I couldn't care less about killmails. I'm in favor of this because I think NPC corps need some balancing to account for their immunity to war deccs.

And since there are so many people complaining about it, yes, I imagine that some people will move into player corps, or at least start their own.

Sizzle Anburn
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:17:00 - [455]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Julian Lynq

The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal.



Originally by: Domoso
I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax.


Seems to me that it is working.


You'd be wrong. The goal isn't to get the NPC bears to dash off and create disposable one man player corps to avoid the tax, it's to "encourage" or "nudge" haha them into REAL player corps and interact with other players instead of essentially playing solo. Accomplishing that would provide CCP with players who have a higher retention rate than solo players.

The proposed design fails at both encouraging and forcing grouping, which doesn't surprise me as it seems CCP can't make up it's mind which they want to do.

Daemonspirit
Six Degrees of Separation
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:23:00 - [456]
 

Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Again, I donīt want protection. I want that everyone sees that you are a fail pvpīer who needs to kill pve players so he can at least get a killmail too and is additionally not intelligent enough to grasp that this change will not in any way produce more targets for him. In short: the reason you are in favour of this change is exactly as void as the change being sucessfull in fullfilling the stated goal.


The ironic thing is I don't PvP. I couldn't care less about killmails. I'm in favor of this because I think NPC corps need some balancing to account for their immunity to war deccs.

And since there are so many people complaining about it, yes, I imagine that some people will move into player corps, or at least start their own.


How will that make them more vulnerable? We've already discussed that anyone with enough intelligence to play the game can figure out how to be virtually immune to war-decs. Net effect will still be zero (or so close to zero that it means nothing).

Just tonnes more (imho) alt corp'er war-dec hoppers to infuriate everyone... (I think anyone that thinks this through will either form several one man corps, or not leave NPC corps at all).

This won't make enemy logistics more vulnerable, won't make enemy ISK earners more vulnerable, won't make ISK sellers more vulnerable - I honestly can't see, for anything that's been said on the topic, how this will actually help anything that the people in this thread who have supported it have brought up?

Julien is over-reacting to the *perceived* threat, but thats it... vOv After its been explained that this should have no net effect on his earnings, or if that bothers him, how to make himself virtually immune to what he sees as the problem.


My whole objection to this idea is that it won't accomplish the stated objective... I hate silly ideas...



baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:27:00 - [457]
 

Originally by: Sizzle Anburn
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Julian Lynq

The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal.



Originally by: Domoso
I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax.


Seems to me that it is working.


You'd be wrong. The goal isn't to get the NPC bears to dash off and create disposable one man player corps to avoid the tax, it's to "encourage" or "nudge" haha them into REAL player corps and interact with other players instead of essentially playing solo. Accomplishing that would provide CCP with players who have a higher retention rate than solo players.

The proposed design fails at both encouraging and forcing grouping, which doesn't surprise me as it seems CCP can't make up it's mind which they want to do.


For all we know, this could be the push that Domoso needs to not only start his own corp but to eventualy build an allience as powerfull as BoB used to be.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:28:00 - [458]
 

Well, I suppose I think, and what CCP is hoping, is that while there will be a lot of people just creating one man corps, there will be at least a FEW who do join real corps. And possibly some of those those one man corps might eventually grow, merge or enter alliances with each other, or recruit their friends out of the NPC corp.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:30:00 - [459]
 

Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Again, I donīt want protection. I want that everyone sees that you are a fail pvpīer who needs to kill pve players so he can at least get a killmail too and is additionally not intelligent enough to grasp that this change will not in any way produce more targets for him. In short: the reason you are in favour of this change is exactly as void as the change being sucessfull in fullfilling the stated goal.


The ironic thing is I don't PvP. I couldn't care less about killmails. I'm in favor of this because I think NPC corps need some balancing to account for their immunity to war deccs.

And since there are so many people complaining about it, yes, I imagine that some people will move into player corps, or at least start their own.



Well, you need to realize that the complaining is because the change is not anticipated to achieve the goal. Do you really believe I care about making a 1 man corp and hop around and see poeple wasting their money on wardeccing me? Or about the 11% increase that really comes down closer to about 4-5% regarding my play syle ?

The reason that I put that much.. letīs say "effort" into this discussion is not because I fear of any player attack. It is because I see ccp making unintelligent changes that do not solve something that doesnīt need to be solved anyways. And people that donīt care about it only because it doesnt affect them or because they donīt understand the results of it.

I want that when ccp makes changes in eve, they are well thought through and have a meaning. Changes that actually provide the chance to achieve their goal.


Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:32:00 - [460]
 

Originally by: Sizzle Anburn
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Julian Lynq

The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal.



Originally by: Domoso
I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax.


Seems to me that it is working.


You'd be wrong. The goal isn't to get the NPC bears to dash off and create disposable one man player corps to avoid the tax, it's to "encourage" or "nudge" haha them into REAL player corps and interact with other players instead of essentially playing solo. Accomplishing that would provide CCP with players who have a higher retention rate than solo players.

The proposed design fails at both encouraging and forcing grouping, which doesn't surprise me as it seems CCP can't make up it's mind which they want to do.


I've played eve SOLO for more than two years (either in my own 1 man corps or in NPC corps). This doesn't do anything to encourage players to go into 'real' player corps as you say, it just encourages people that have no desire to deal with the politics, stupidity, griefers and scammers of 'real' player corps to either eat the tax (not a big deal really), make their own 1 man disposable alt corp to jump corps with (I'm doing that), or quit the game (some will).

Like you said CCP has failed once again to understand basic fundamentals of a not insignificant section of their player base.

I am the Lone Wolf type of player. I don't NEED others to enjoy the game. I enjoy every aspect of the game except blob warfare and idiotic corp politics with out needing to deal with people that I would rather not talk to in the first place.

I pay for 4-6 accounts a month depending on my game needs for that month. Why should my money be any less important or valuable than a player that NEEDS to be around others, that can't function in the game without others help?

I am self sufficient. Can you say the same? Is your dollar any less important or more important than mine?

If CCP is thinking that the dollar player X that is in a player corp means more than the dollar that is from player Y that is in an NPC corp, then they need to fire someone.


Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:36:00 - [461]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Sizzle Anburn
the fact of the matter is a small NPC corp tax isn't going to work at forcing people to group against their will.
Another fact of the matter is that no-one is claiming that it will. In fact, the only ones talking about "forcing" people are the ones decrying the change — most everyone else are seeing it as a way to nudge, to entice, and to attract players into PC corps since these corps now have a point of leverage that previously wasn't available to them.

The whole "it won't succeed at forcing players" is quite a strawman argument — it has never been said to be the goal.

When you're down to arguing semantics, and doing it poorly, you really should stop trying to argue.

A nudge is still forcing. And if you seriously think that low taxes is going to spur recruiting, then your corp must be awful. There has to be something you guys do that you can brag about that's better than "We can protect your money just like the Cayman Islands!"

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:42:00 - [462]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Sizzle Anburn
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Julian Lynq

The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal.



Originally by: Domoso
I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax.


Seems to me that it is working.


You'd be wrong. The goal isn't to get the NPC bears to dash off and create disposable one man player corps to avoid the tax, it's to "encourage" or "nudge" haha them into REAL player corps and interact with other players instead of essentially playing solo. Accomplishing that would provide CCP with players who have a higher retention rate than solo players.

The proposed design fails at both encouraging and forcing grouping, which doesn't surprise me as it seems CCP can't make up it's mind which they want to do.


For all we know, this could be the push that Domoso needs to not only start his own corp but to eventualy build an allience as powerfull as BoB used to be.

So, the reason you're so happy with the change is you have no idea about psychology. Gotcha.

Tip: There are loners in this world. They decided to live their life without a large crowd of people around them. You can beat them all you want with a stick, they're still not gonna be happy in a large crowd of people.

So no, long-time NPC corp players aren't too scared to venture off into player corps "and create thew new BoB". They've all done the corp life and rejected it. It's the newbies you want to try and 'encourage', and you do that by reforming the wardec system. 'course, the wanna-be piwates will HATE the way the wardec system would have to change for that to work.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:44:00 - [463]
 

Originally by: Ukucia
A nudge is still forcing.
No. A nudge is a suggestion. Forcing is removing choice. You still have full control of what you want to do, only now, the PC corps have another tool at their disposal in trying to convince you.
Quote:
And if you seriously think that low taxes is going to spur recruiting, then your corp must be awful. There has to be something you guys do that you can brag about that's better than "We can protect your money just like the Cayman Islands!"
…let me stress that: another tool, on top of the ones they already have — one that they didn't have before. For some, it may be the deciding factor. Given how many are howling at the change, it may actually be quite a few…

Daemonspirit
Six Degrees of Separation
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:50:00 - [464]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Ukucia
A nudge is still forcing.
No. A nudge is a suggestion. Forcing is removing choice. You still have full control of what you want to do, only now, the PC corps have another tool at their disposal in trying to convince you.
Quote:
And if you seriously think that low taxes is going to spur recruiting, then your corp must be awful. There has to be something you guys do that you can brag about that's better than "We can protect your money just like the Cayman Islands!"
…let me stress that: another tool, on top of the ones they already have — one that they didn't have before. For some, it may be the deciding factor. Given how many are howling at the change, it may actually be quite a few…


Your a bloody optimist now...

If only CCP had made some tools so that Corporations and Alliances could get the "recruiting" word out, a forum, or an in game channel...

oh wait...

*maybe* MAYBE, Player Corporations are the ones failing? Failing to attract that new player? Failing to counter the "bitter vets" in the rookie channel? Failing to *do* anything different?


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.21 21:53:00 - [465]
 

Originally by: Daemonspirit
*maybe* MAYBE, Player Corporations are the ones failing? Failing to attract that new player? Failing to counter the "bitter vets" in the rookie channel? Failing to *do* anything different?
No doubt, but then isn't it a good idea to give them more ways to sell themselves?

Sizzle Anburn
Posted - 2009.09.21 22:00:00 - [466]
 

Originally by: Tippia
No. A nudge is a suggestion. Forcing is removing choice.


No.

Game design changes to get people to group more are either:

Carrot (encouragement) - "If you group you'll get all these cool benefits!" This is the approach CCP has traditionally used most of.

Stick (punishment) - "If you don't group we're going to do something to penalize you." NPC corp tax in this case.

Problem with the design of this particular stick is that it can so easily be gamed.

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.21 22:05:00 - [467]
 

Edited by: Ukucia on 21/09/2009 22:06:18
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Ukucia
A nudge is still forcing.
No. A nudge is a suggestion. Forcing is removing choice.

Fine, we'll have the semantic argument.

You walk up to someone and nudge them. You APPLIED FORCE TO THEM. Nudging is forcing. More gentle than a shove, but forcing none the less. Are you next going to tell me that this isn't a tax, but a revenue enhancement?

Quote:
Quote:
And if you seriously think that low taxes is going to spur recruiting, then your corp must be awful. There has to be something you guys do that you can brag about that's better than "We can protect your money just like the Cayman Islands!"
…let me stress that: another tool, on top of the ones they already have — one that they didn't have before. For some, it may be the deciding factor. Given how many are howling at the change, it may actually be quite a few…

If it's the deciding factor, then your corp is indeed awful.

And it's also pretty clear you're not reading what the folks "howling" are complaining about. Lemme sum it up:
1) Sandbox game. Why are we being forced/nudged/encourged/whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call-it into playing the "right" way?
2) This won't make more targets for wardecs. Wardecs are easy to avoid in a 1-man corp, and the entire wardec system is a terrible compromise that will never satisfy the griefers nor the carebears.
3) This won't suddenly change the psychology of the 'lone wolf' such that they become a 'company man'.
4) There's far too many terrible player corps.

Wanna actually encourage people to join player corps?
1) Minimize wardecs. You're bribing CONCORD so that you can attack me. Why can't I bribe CONCORD to block your request? Why can't I "transfer" the wardec to the merc corp I hired to fight it (such that both me and the mercs are within the same wardec instead of the mercs having to file their own wardec).
2) The culling. Bad corps need to be exposed and thus destroyed. Perhaps COSMOS could help, if there's a way for players to put up "reviews" of corps. However, this will be a nightmare.
3) Make it easier for the rank-and-file to seize the corp from the leadership. You screw up enough as CEO, you and your friends get thrown out on your asses and new leaders take over.
4) Fix Corp roles, titles and security. It's a complicated and convoluted mess. Copying UNIX's file security system would be a far better improvement.
5) Realize that you have lone wolves who will NEVER want to join a corp, even if you offer them tons of goodies. Just let them play. If you think they're missing out on a fantastic experience, that's their choice.

Now, if all CCP is looking for is for a way to retain players longer through social ties, that's a much easier fix:
1) Let us change NPC corps.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.21 22:05:00 - [468]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 21/09/2009 22:13:29
Originally by: Sizzle Anburn
Stick (punishment) - "If you don't group we're going to do something to penalize you." NPC corp tax in this case.
The problem with that is that they're just perceptions.

Carrot: if you join a PC corp, you can get the benefit of lower taxes.

It is seen as a stick because you think of 0% taxes as the norm. For new players, it will be a carrot because that norm no longer exists.
Originally by: Ukucia
You walk up to someone and nudge them. You APPLIED FORCE TO THEM.
If you have a choice in the matter, you're not forced. By your logic, 0% tax is forcing people just as much and must be removed.
Quote:
If it's the deciding factor, then your corp is indeed awful.
How so? Considering what a slight an 11% tax seems to be, a corp that takes less (and might actually give it back to you, rather than just vaporize the cash) sounds like a decidedly non-awful in many people's eyes.
Quote:
Now, if all CCP is looking for is for a way to retain players longer through social ties, that's a much easier fix:
1) Let us change NPC corps.
One thing at a time. I think you'll find a lot of support for changing wardecs, for instance, but it's a [female dog] to get the balance right. In the meantime, they give PC corps a new tool, which, combined with the space-cultivating changes that come in the same patch, might suddenly change how much taxes are worth both to the individual and to the corp.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.09.21 22:06:00 - [469]
 

But what exactly would be a good carrot that would appeal to the mission runner crowd, the group this appears aimed at?

And NPC corp's war dec immunity needs some sort of balancing.

Rordan D'Kherr
Amarr
Posted - 2009.09.21 22:10:00 - [470]
 

Dunno but this talk about "force ppl into player corps" is just bull$h!t. Yeah, Eris told so, but I guess the real thing is: Taxes are everywhere. New players have to get that early as well as being blown up and podded.

If someone wants to be and to stay in NPC corps, act as lone wolf etc etc, noone will stop him. Miners, manufacturers etc. won't notice it.

So hey, tax is no biggie. Stop crying pages about nothing Very Happy

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.21 22:11:00 - [471]
 

Originally by: Uronksur Suth
But what exactly would be a good carrot that would appeal to the mission runner crowd, the group this appears aimed at?

And NPC corp's war dec immunity needs some sort of balancing.

Yes. By making it far harder to wardec. The wanna-be pirates need to be forced to play with the real pirates so they can learn what the hell they are doing. Not spend their time station-camping a "salvage ninja" in Jita.

Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
Posted - 2009.09.21 22:24:00 - [472]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Sizzle Anburn
Stick (punishment) - "If you don't group we're going to do something to penalize you." NPC corp tax in this case.
The problem with that is that they're just perceptions.

Carrot: if you join a PC corp, you can get the benefit of lower taxes.

It is seen as a stick because you think of 0% taxes as the norm. For new players, it will be a carrot because that norm no longer exists.


The carrot doesn't outweigh the stick. When you join a player corp you also join into corp politics. Your forced to have to work with people that you may or may not like, and if you don't want to you may very well get booted out.

People are always saying that you can do so much MORE in a player corp than you can do in an NPC corp, and they are right, unfortunately everything MORE that you can do is negative except putting up a POS.

I do everything you can do in a player corp. Solo. Except put up a POS. I can even engage in gang and blob warfare. Being in an NPC corp gives me immunity from being war decced, it does not give me immunity from being PvP'd. Being in an NPC corp means I can't put up a POS. I see the trade offs as equal.

Player owned corps are NOT innately 'better' because they are ran by players, they are innately worse.

I have been in PC's, both good and terrible. The majority of members in PC's are PEONS. They have little or no control over where the corp is going. Virtually no (or none) access to corp hangers unless the ceo or a director gives it to them. No access to corp wallet unless given to them. Etc Etc. Where is the benefit to ANY percentage of my work going to a corp that I don't have direct and immediate access to?

Protection from pirates if war decced? I get that in an NPC corp.

Friends to fight with? Got them already in low sec when I want them, or I can just fly solo and look for solo fights.

I see no benefit at ALL of being in a player corp versus an NPC corp, I do on the other hand see a lot more negatives.

My play style is as valid as anyone else who pays to play this game. Why should I be penalized for others perception (erroneous) that I am not enjoying the game fully because I don't want to be in a player corp?

Constable Chang
Amarr
The Restorian Movement
Posted - 2009.09.21 22:47:00 - [473]
 

How about the cost of a wardec being inversely proportional to the number of members in the corp?

So wardeccing a 1-man corp is, say, 100 million ISK.

Wardeccing, say, Eve Uni (not that anyone would be so stupid) would be close to zero.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.09.21 22:51:00 - [474]
 

Edited by: Uronksur Suth on 21/09/2009 22:52:34
Originally by: Lotus Sutra
The carrot doesn't outweigh the stick.


Corp taxes only apply to bounties and mission rewards. So unless you only mission and don't even salvage/loot your wrecks, it really isn't that big of an issue.

Originally by: Lotus Sutra

When you join a player corp you also join into corp politics. Your forced to have to work with people that you may or may not like, and if you don't want to you may very well get booted out.




Wow! That sounds like how real companies and corporations work too!


Originally by: Lotus Sutra

People are always saying that you can do so much MORE in a player corp than you can do in an NPC corp, and they are right, unfortunately [b]everything MORE that you can do is negative[/b[ except putting up a POS.


Yes, group mining ops, corp discounts on ships, joining alliances, having sovereign space all is negative. right. Wink



Originally by: Constable Chang
How about the cost of a wardec being inversely proportional to the number of members in the corp?

So wardeccing a 1-man corp is, say, 100 million ISK.

Wardeccing, say, Eve Uni (not that anyone would be so stupid) would be close to zero.



Because that would make absolutely no sense

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.21 23:00:00 - [475]
 

Originally by: Constable Chang
How about the cost of a wardec being inversely proportional to the number of members in the corp?

So wardeccing a 1-man corp is, say, 100 million ISK.

Wardeccing, say, Eve Uni (not that anyone would be so stupid) would be close to zero.


If you think Eve Uni isn't wardeced frequently, you have no idea just how broken the wardec system is.

Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
Posted - 2009.09.21 23:00:00 - [476]
 

Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 21/09/2009 23:04:44
Originally by: Uronksur Suth

Originally by: Lotus Sutra
The carrot doesn't outweigh the stick.


Corp taxes only apply to bounties and mission rewards. So unless you only mission and don't even salvage/loot your wrecks, it really isn't that big of an issue.


The costs still outweigh the benefits. Why should I be pushed towards doing anything I don't want to do?
Originally by: Uronksur Suth

Originally by: Lotus Sutra

When you join a player corp you also join into corp politics. Your forced to have to work with people that you may or may not like, and if you don't want to you may very well get booted out.




Wow! That sounds like how real companies and corporations work too!


I don't play a ****ing game to deal with politics. If I wanted to deal with politics i'd work for the government.

Originally by: Uronksur Suth

Originally by: Lotus Sutra

People are always saying that you can do so much MORE in a player corp than you can do in an NPC corp, and they are right, unfortunately [b]everything MORE that you can do is negative[/b[ except putting up a POS.


Yes, group mining ops, corp discounts on ships, joining alliances, having sovereign space all is negative. right. Wink


I don't want to work in group mining ops. I make my own ships and modules at discount already, alliances and soverign space don't interest me. Why should I be required to participate in them? Why should my hard work be used for others benefit and not solely for my own?

Why should MY play style be any less important than YOUR play style? Again why should I be PUSHED towards doing something I have no desire to do or be a part of just because someone in CCP that doesn't have a ****ing clue thinks I will enjoy the game more when in fact I will enjoy the game less?

Effectively CCP is saying my 60-90 a month is less valuable than yours.

I don't pay to play this 'sandbox game where I supposedly can decide what I want to do and be" to be pushed into doing what CCP or YOU or anyone else thinks I should do or want to be.

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.21 23:05:00 - [477]
 

Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Originally by: Lotus Sutra

When you join a player corp you also join into corp politics. Your forced to have to work with people that you may or may not like, and if you don't want to you may very well get booted out.



Wow! That sounds like how real companies and corporations work too!

The real company I work for pays me.
Until CCP pays me to play their game, game design should not mimic real-world work.

Quote:
Originally by: Lotus Sutra

People are always saying that you can do so much MORE in a player corp than you can do in an NPC corp, and they are right, unfortunately [b]everything MORE that you can do is negative[/b[ except putting up a POS.


Yes, group mining ops, corp discounts on ships, joining alliances, having sovereign space all is negative. right. Wink

To some people, it is. You are not everyone.
And you do realize that ops (mining or otherwise) can be done without being in a corp, right? It's your lack of initiative that you didn't do any until you were in a corp.

Rellik B00n
Posted - 2009.09.21 23:10:00 - [478]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP.

Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his?


HERE IT IS AGAIN, IS IT BEGINNING TO GO IN YET?

NO?

Originally by: Malcanis
OK how about this, if they dont want to PvP, then can leave the corp and immediately be safe. However they cant mine, convert LP, buy or sell anything on the market or create public contracts. Which should be fine, because they dont WANT to PvP, right? And all of those things are PvP.

Or maybe they actually want to PvP; PvP my wallet, PvP my mineral resources, PvP my market alt, PvP my industry margins, PvP my invention profits, but gain free no-consequence immunity from PvPing my ship. It's fine for a big established industrialist to grief my little ammo building operation, but it's not fine for me to shoot his supply hauler? He gets to be immune to my PvP, but I dont get to be immune to his?


I THINK THAT PRETTY MUCH COVERS NPC CORP IMMUNITY, NOW HOWS ABOUT WE GET BACK TO THE TEARS PLEASE.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.09.21 23:22:00 - [479]
 

Originally by: Lotus Sutra

The costs still outweigh the benefits. Why should I be pushed towards doing anything I don't want to do?


Because CCP wants is trying to get people to stop hiding in NPC corps and join the rest of the game.

Originally by: Lotus Sutra

I don't play a ****ing game to deal with politics. If I wanted to deal with politics i'd work for the government.


Thats certainly a problem seeing as CCP has stated that they want to make it as realistic as possible, so politics are only going to expand.

Originally by: Lotus Sutra

I don't want to work in group mining ops. I make my own ships and modules at discount already, alliances and soverign space don't interest me. Why should I be required to participate in them? Why should my hard work be used for others benefit and not solely for my own?


Then don't. Stay in the NPC corp. Or form your own corp, as you've obviously already done with Sutra Inc. Although that sort of its-all-about-me attitude is a rather bizarre one to adopt in a multiplayer game

Originally by: Lotus Sutra

Why should MY play style be any less important than YOUR play style?


It isn't less important. That would be a personal value judgment. Working by yourself is certainly less efficient though.

Originally by: Lotus Sutra

Again why should I be PUSHED towards doing something I have no desire to do or be a part of just because someone in CCP that doesn't have a ****ing clue thinks I will enjoy the game more when in fact I will enjoy the game less?


CCP can do whatever they want with their game. They've decided that they want to try encouraging more people to join player corps, which are a major feature of the game, so they are eliminating one of the advantages to them by instituting an AVERAGE tax.


Originally by: Lotus Sutra

Effectively CCP is saying my 60-90 a month is less valuable than yours.


You do realize that I understand that this statement has nothing to do with the issue and is just some emotional red herring to make you seem like a martyr, right?

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.21 23:33:00 - [480]
 

Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Uronksur Suth
I believe the idea behind this I believe is that it will encourage some to join or form their own player corps, while those who remain have this set 11% tax as a balance to their complete and utter immunity to PvP

Am i missing a recent change about npc corporations? Because last time i checked the only difference was not being able to be wardecced, nothing about being immune to pvp.



Yes, well, in high sec then that makes you pretty much untouchable, doesn't it? Rolling Eyes


Laughing Ever heard of suicide ganking?



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