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Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:02:00 - [421]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Uronksur Suth
I believe the idea behind this I believe is that it will encourage some to join or form their own player corps, while those who remain have this set 11% tax as a balance to their complete and utter immunity to PvP

Am i missing a recent change about npc corporations? Because last time i checked the only difference was not being able to be wardecced, nothing about being immune to pvp.



Yes, well, in high sec then that makes you pretty much untouchable, doesn't it? Rolling Eyes

Sizzle Anburn
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:04:00 - [422]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Another fact of the matter is that no-one is claiming that it will. In fact, the only ones talking about "forcing" people are the ones decrying the change — most everyone else are seeing it as a way to nudge, to entice, and to attract players into PC corps since these corps now have a point of leverage that previously wasn't available to them.

The whole "it won't succeed at forcing players" is quite a strawman argument — it has never been said to be the goal.


Strawman indeed. Trying to spin a punishment for solo play in the NPC corp into being some sort of benign "encouragement" is nothing more than playing semantical games.

Again, as I said, it doesn't impact me. So go right ahead and implement it. Just don't expect to see the results you and others seem to desire.

Daemonspirit
Six Degrees of Separation
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:04:00 - [423]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Sizzle Anburn
the fact of the matter is a small NPC corp tax isn't going to work at forcing people to group against their will.
Another fact of the matter is that no-one is claiming that it will. In fact, the only ones talking about "forcing" people are the ones decrying the change — most everyone else are seeing it as a way to nudge, to entice, and to attract players into PC corps since these corps now have a point of leverage that previously wasn't available to them.

The whole "it won't succeed at forcing players" is quite a strawman argument — it has never been said to be the goal.



The point of leverage is so tiny as to be unnoticeable..ugh
Again - if this is about encouraging players to join (other players) Corps, its effect will be smaller than p-ing on a hot griddle... it won't even sizzle...


Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:05:00 - [424]
 

Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Uronksur Suth
I believe the idea behind this I believe is that it will encourage some to join or form their own player corps, while those who remain have this set 11% tax as a balance to their complete and utter immunity to PvP

Am i missing a recent change about npc corporations? Because last time i checked the only difference was not being able to be wardecced, nothing about being immune to pvp.



Yes, well, in high sec then that makes you pretty much untouchable, doesn't it? Rolling Eyes


Inappropriate comment removed. ~Weatherman

Serge Bastana
Gallente
GWA Corp
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:09:00 - [425]
 

I really do wonder how many people in NPC corps see the proposed tax as a punishment too, or could it be that they're just enjoying the game and don't see it as that big a change to their game play.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:10:00 - [426]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Uronksur Suth
I believe the idea behind this I believe is that it will encourage some to join or form their own player corps, while those who remain have this set 11% tax as a balance to their complete and utter immunity to PvP

Am i missing a recent change about npc corporations? Because last time i checked the only difference was not being able to be wardecced, nothing about being immune to pvp.



Yes, well, in high sec then that makes you pretty much untouchable, doesn't it? Rolling Eyes


Inappropriate comment removed. ~Weatherman



Um. No. Because you aren't children. And if you DO want to be untouchable, there should be a COST for that immunity.

Rebel Witch
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:13:00 - [427]
 

Edited by: Rebel Witch on 21/09/2009 20:19:10
11% tax Won't be enough, I doubt it will push more than 1-5% moreplayers to a player corp. Now if it was 20-30% tax then you might see significant changes.

Also, a great way to snuff out macro miners and isk sellers, tax mining 50% or more if you are in a npc corp. After all, if you are a miner you are the top 1% wealthy of all humans and we know how governments love to tax the wealthy. Cool

Daemonspirit
Six Degrees of Separation
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:15:00 - [428]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles.


Ok, lets get one thing straight...

You will still be entirely safe, even if you make a 1 man corp. However, YOU, personally Julian, may have made enough of an ass of yourself here to attract some war-decs with comments like the above... Rolling Eyes

Most people who *DON"T* smack talk in local will never get war-dec'd... there are just too many singles out there to bother tracking everyone down...

Your "ISK" income will be nerfed by 11% only if:

a. You run missions and never salvage or loot.

b. You can't shut up in local, and therefore can't make a 1 man mission-running corp because smack talking attracts war-decs.

c. that's it. This change will have no other effect... raise the tax to 100% - it is still so easy to avoid it, it becomes irrelevant...

d. Even if you DO get wardec'd, if you make it a habit to change to an alt corp every other day, whether or not your dec'd, your golden... because its just your normal play style.


- Now, do try to calm down...

- take a deep breath...

Which should really be the point of the conversation here - because if those in NPC corps do not wish to join (other) Players Corps - they *still* have no incentive to do so....

Fail Change is pointless...

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:16:00 - [429]
 

Originally by: Uronksur Suth

Um. No. Because you aren't children. And if you DO want to be untouchable, there should be a COST for that immunity.


you want to engadge with me in unconsentual pvp. You are specialized in it while I have nothing to defent myself from it (pve skill-set).
you dont donīt want to engadge in pvp with people that are on your level.

It is quite alot like how pedophiles that want to touch children.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:20:00 - [430]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Uronksur Suth

Um. No. Because you aren't children. And if you DO want to be untouchable, there should be a COST for that immunity.


you want to engadge with me in unconsentual pvp. You are specialized in it while I have nothing to defent myself from it (pve skill-set).
you dont donīt want to engadge in pvp with people that are on your level.

It is quite alot like how pedophiles that want to touch children.


Yes, you imbecile, EVE contains non-consensual PvP. CCP has stated repeatedly that this is an intended feature of the game.

And comparing it to child molestation as if it breaks some rule is too stupid to be even slightly lol worthy.

Domoso
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:20:00 - [431]
 

Edited by: Domoso on 21/09/2009 20:22:20
This is a bad move by CCP. And if/when they implement it guess what, people are just going to form their own corps with 0% tax. And then what? You betcha, CCP is going to levy a tax on corporations to discourage such moves. And then what? All you people complaining about us NPC corpers are going to be complaining about being taxed. So what's the point of this move by CCP? I pay them to play a game. I'm not paying them to play a game that requires I work to play it. I've got other crap on my mind, like college. Taking 11% of the isk I spend my time and my rl money to earn is nothing more than BS. If they really wanted to solve this "problem" they've identified then how about giving players in player corps a progressive royalty based on number of players instead of making it 11% more difficult for me to make isk? Because either way, I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:25:00 - [432]
 

Originally by: Daemonspirit
Originally by: Julian Lynq
It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles.


Ok, lets get one thing straight...

You will still be entirely safe, even if you make a 1 man corp. However, YOU, personally Julian, may have made enough of an ass of yourself here to attract some war-decs with comments like the above... Rolling Eyes



To be honest I really don`t care. I am fine making an ass of myself if it helps to get the message across that the change is bad and that thoose in favour are mostly people that want to gank defensless carebears (which is not what will happen anyways).

I sacrifice myself for the topic if you will. I notice that my equtation might raise emotions here but if you look at it from an objective angle there is really no reason for that.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:25:00 - [433]
 

Originally by: Domoso

This is a bad move by CCP. And if/when they implement it guess what, people are just going to form their own corps with 0% tax. And then what? You betcha, CCP is going to levy a tax on corporations to discourage such moves.



No, you dimwit, because that is EXACTLY what CCP has said they want. I haven't quite decided whether that was a troll post or not.

Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:26:00 - [434]
 

This little change won't effect me in the least really. I have characters in player corps, this character is in my own 1 man player corp. I'm a jita trade alt and never undock.. war dec me all you want. Like I said earlier, you lose isk, I lose nothing but gain a LOT of LOLS at your expense.

My mission runner character is already set to step out of the NPC corp and into a 1 man corp (making it a two man corp) that I will make the day this change goes live. If that corp gets war decced my mission runner will drop corp and move to another alt corp that I will make for the purpose. Rinse. Repeat.

Effective cost to me per alt character I create just to make into 1 man corps to hop in and out of:

1,618,000 isk (2 BS bounties.. ooo scary cost).

The time involved to do so, less than 10 minutes per alt character, this is including training time, character creation time and corp creation time.

I make that much in bounties in the same amount of time or less depending on what NPC I am shooting at.

So 15 alt characters all making alt corps that my mission runner can hop into. Total cost to me:

24, 270,000 isk and less than 150 minutes time waiting for alts to train on second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth accounts on my other computer (2.5 hours time, that I will still be making isk through while they train because I won't have stopped running missions while they do it).

I make 24 million isk off 1 missions bounties and loot easily if It's a fair mission.

Net Effect of this NPC Tax: Not a damn thing but all the wannabe pirates screaming in impotent rage because they can't do a damn thing to stop me from doing it.Twisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted EvilTwisted Evil

Your wannabe pirate tears, they are delicious.

Please cry some more.


Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:29:00 - [435]
 

Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Uronksur Suth

Um. No. Because you aren't children. And if you DO want to be untouchable, there should be a COST for that immunity.


you want to engadge with me in unconsentual pvp. You are specialized in it while I have nothing to defent myself from it (pve skill-set).
you dont donīt want to engadge in pvp with people that are on your level.


It is quite alot like how pedophiles that want to touch children.


Yes, you imbecile, EVE contains non-consensual PvP. CCP has stated repeatedly that this is an intended feature of the game.

And comparing it to child molestation as if it breaks some rule is too stupid to be even slightly lol worthy.
Respond to the full thing or donīt respond at all.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:34:00 - [436]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Uronksur Suth

Um. No. Because you aren't children. And if you DO want to be untouchable, there should be a COST for that immunity.


you want to engadge with me in unconsentual pvp. You are specialized in it while I have nothing to defent myself from it (pve skill-set).
you dont donīt want to engadge in pvp with people that are on your level.


It is quite alot like how pedophiles that want to touch children.


Yes, you imbecile, EVE contains non-consensual PvP. CCP has stated repeatedly that this is an intended feature of the game.

And comparing it to child molestation as if it breaks some rule is too stupid to be even slightly lol worthy.
Respond to the full thing or donīt respond at all.


So what if you aren't specialized for PvP? I don't get your point.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:38:00 - [437]
 

Originally by: Uronksur Suth

So what if you aren't specialized for PvP? I don't get your point.


That:

- You are specialized in it.
- You dont want to engadge with people of your level.

I have neither:

- Skills for it (PVE skills)
- Nor Experience.


but the important part really is that you want to engadge me rather than people of your "level"/experience

CCP Eris Discordia

Posted - 2009.09.21 20:38:00 - [438]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq

It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles.



These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:39:00 - [439]
 

Edited by: baltec1 on 21/09/2009 20:51:34
Edited by: baltec1 on 21/09/2009 20:39:23
Originally by: Domoso
Edited by: Domoso on 21/09/2009 20:22:20
This is a bad move by CCP. And if/when they implement it guess what, people are just going to form their own corps with 0% tax. And then what? You betcha, CCP is going to levy a tax on corporations to discourage such moves. And then what? All you people complaining about us NPC corpers are going to be complaining about being taxed. So what's the point of this move by CCP? I pay them to play a game. I'm not paying them to play a game that requires I work to play it. I've got other crap on my mind, like college. Taking 11% of the isk I spend my time and my rl money to earn is nothing more than BS. If they really wanted to solve this "problem" they've identified then how about giving players in player corps a progressive royalty based on number of players instead of making it 11% more difficult for me to make isk? Because either way, I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax.



Behold for it is working!

Ashina Sito
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:41:00 - [440]
 

Originally by: Serge Bastana
I really do wonder how many people in NPC corps see the proposed tax as a punishment too, or could it be that they're just enjoying the game and don't see it as that big a change to their game play.


Since nothing new is being added I believe that most people in NPC corps see it as a punishment.

For me the tax will be negligible. I make far more from LP then I do from the "soon to be (tm)" taxable income. The honest truth is this will only make spending time in 0.0 that much worse since nearly ALL of my income in 0.0 would be taxed. So, this change could end up meaning less time doing PvP... quite ironic.

After 3 years I have yet to encounter the need to be in a Player Corp. I was mission running in low sec at 6 days old, mining low sec @ 16 days. I went into 0.0 at 7 weeks, alone with no support or guidance. With NPC corpes I have done L5 missions, Exploration, WH content, PvP roams, taught PvP classes and lead fleets in 0.0 space. All of this on my time, when I want and how I want, a level of freedom and independence I will not see in a Player Corp. Just because most of the player base are sheep who are incapable of doing anything on there own does not mean I am weak and need the crutches they rely upon.


This change will nether nudge nor force anyone to do anything. All it will do is annoy pilots who see NPC corps as their home. Why institute a change that will not achieve it's goal and only result in a an increase in negative perception of the game by it's players?

The fact that CCP can not see this is troubling. More so is the fact that they can not comprehend the position of players that chose to stay in NPC corps. What will they do when they decide to stop nudging and chose to actually force players into player corps?

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:43:00 - [441]
 

Edited by: Uronksur Suth on 21/09/2009 20:43:14
Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: Uronksur Suth

So what if you aren't specialized for PvP? I don't get your point.


That:

- You are specialized in it.
- You dont want to engadge with people of your level.

I have neither:

- Skills for it (PVE skills)
- Nor Experience.


but the important part really is that you want to engadge me rather than people of your "level"/experience


Well, not me actually. But I'm not sure, you feel like CCP should regulate PvP based on skill level? Confused

You seem to be missing the point. Non-consensual PvP is something CCP considers a feature of the game. Just because you don't want to participate doesn't mean you should be protected.

And for the love of God, its spelled "Engage"

EDIT:

Oh look Laughing they agree with me Laughing

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Originally by: Julian Lynq

It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles.



These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:43:00 - [442]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Originally by: Julian Lynq

It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles.



These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point.


There is no reason for reacting emotional to it. See it from an objective angle.

Tuscanspeed
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:46:00 - [443]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Originally by: Julian Lynq

It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles.



These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point.



Then how about focusing on the point that this change will do nothing to achieve the goal you're shooting for and will only **** people off?

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:46:00 - [444]
 

Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Originally by: Julian Lynq

It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles.



These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point.

Like it matters, CCP is fixed on the idiotic idea that you should force people into player corporations, because you decide for others what is more fun. (this is completely seperate from the wardec argument, this is just CCPs idea that they should 'help' players having more 'fun').

Quote:
Yes, well, in high sec then that makes you pretty much untouchable, doesn't it?

So since when was it only in high sec? In my time in npc corporatiosn i have been more time in low sec. Which means soloing and not asking your entire corp for backup when your 'soloing' doesnt go as planned.

No more suicide gankers in high sec? Can baiters? Ninja looters? Ore thieves?

And how is it different from a normal corp where i just corp hop/dont login during wardec?

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:49:00 - [445]
 

Edited by: Julian Lynq on 21/09/2009 20:48:55
Originally by: Uronksur SuthWell, not me actually. But I'm not sure, you feel like CCP should regulate PvP based on skill level? [:?


You seem to be missing the point. Non-consensual PvP is something CCP considers a feature of the game. Just because you don't want to participate doesn't mean you should be protected.



No I was not making that point. The point is not that I want protection, but that the reason you are for the change is because you want to attack thoose that cannot defend.

The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal.





Tuscanspeed
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:51:00 - [446]
 

Originally by: Uronksur Suth
Edited by: Uronksur Suth on 21/09/2009 20:43:14

You seem to be missing the point. Non-consensual PvP is something CCP considers a feature of the game. Just because you don't want to participate doesn't mean you should be protected.


Last I checked, I can be shot down while part of an NPC corp just as fast as a player corp.

Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:53:00 - [447]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Originally by: Julian Lynq

It is kind of like making children untouchable from pedophiles.



These type of arguments do nothing to convince CCP you have a point.


There is no reason for reacting emotional to it. See it from an objective angle.


For all of the very smart and intelligent people that work at CCP, they are very dumb when it comes to the player base. They seem to assume everyone thinks and acts as they do or would when the opposite is usually true.

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:53:00 - [448]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq

The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal.



Originally by: Domoso
I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax.


Seems to me that it is working.

Uronksur Suth
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:57:00 - [449]
 

Originally by: Julian Lynq
Edited by: Julian Lynq on 21/09/2009 20:48:55
Originally by: Uronksur SuthWell, not me actually. But I'm not sure, you feel like CCP should regulate PvP based on skill level? [:?


You seem to be missing the point. Non-consensual PvP is something CCP considers a feature of the game. Just because you don't want to participate doesn't mean you should be protected.



No I was not making that point. The point is not that I want protection, but that the reason you are for the change is because you want to attack thoose that cannot defend.

The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal.



Yes, and as for your wanting protection, this change means that you actually have to pay for it now.

And if you don't want to pay, feel free to join a player corp with a tax rate more to your liking. Or hell, just train Corp Management 1 and make your own.

Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
Posted - 2009.09.21 20:59:00 - [450]
 

Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 21/09/2009 21:10:45
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Julian Lynq

The main point however remains that: The proposed "fix" will not achieve the stated goal.



Originally by: Domoso
I'm not joining a fricking player corp other than the one I create the avoid this tax.


Seems to me that it is working.


technically yes, but the reality is, your going to have LESS social interaction than you had with people staying in NPC corps. For myself that is not a bad thing, I prefer the Lone Wolf approach to the game over being in a corp with other players. My mission runner alt keeps NPC corp chat and local minimized and never interacts with people. I don't need other people to enjoy the game. I enjoy it very well without you.

I think that is what bothers so many people. They can't see playing in an MMO alone, they seem to feel that doing so is somehow wrong and un-natural to be in a MMORPG and NOT seek out other players.

The problem with that concept isn't that I don't seek out other players, my PVP alt does on a regular basis in low sec. The problem they seem unable to grasp is that I can do everything they do in a group, by myself. I think that confuses and scares them so much they think they MUST force people to play as they do because 'that is the only way to play eve'.

Sounds very religious to me. "My God is the only true God, yours is a false god and is a devil, you must be forced to convert to my God!"


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