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Artemis Rose
Clandestine Vector
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.09.21 09:16:00 - [331]
 

Originally by: Malcanis

Correct. This is aimed specifically at NPC corp mission runners.

And we know what groups that neatly describes, dont we?

0.0 mission alts
ISK farmers

Yeah, my sympathy for their "playstyle" is kind of limited.


Of lvl 4 mission spamming ISK farmers, you won't really impact them. They will corp hop until the end of time, and they have the resources to probably get as many alt corps as they possibly need. I highly doubt they'd care that they have lhgepouye's corp in their employment history ten million times.

As for the 0.0 ratters, again, 1 man corp and its not like wardecs would make a noticeable difference to a ratter.

For the people who know the mechanics of the game, they will still be invincible and raking all their earnings in. The change can ONLY hurt newer people, casual NPC corp players and anybody who doesn't spend their free time researching undocumented (as far the official website and the tutorial goes) game mechanics.

Unless the tutorial gets revamped to explain keeping yourself safe, explains the rules of wardecs explicitly and goes into more detail about PvP (covering everything from escaping gate camps, insta undocks, aggression coundowns), all you are doing is needlessly nerfing people's income or putting them at risk to players with superior knowledge.

The only way this change is good for the game is if CCP seriously revamps and overhauls the tutorial to protect the unprepared.

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.09.21 09:17:00 - [332]
 

haha owned...

but why exactly 11% and not, say, 12% or 15%??
I would say 15% is a good amount.

Funny to see all the carebear whinage because of that little costs. Player in player corps often pay much more.


Quote:
Time Flux Detected

You are going too fast! Wait five minutes and try again.

Go back One page | Go back to forums

this damned message sucks!!

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.21 09:23:00 - [333]
 

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
EvE is like real life it makes sure that you get the 2 absolute truths.

Death and Taxes


You mean:

immortal clones and 1 man corps

as that is what we get in EVE.




Garr Anders
Minmatar
The Red Circle Inc.
Posted - 2009.09.21 09:27:00 - [334]
 

Quoting an Eve University Member (I have alumni access there)

Quote:
Setting aside the philosophical issue of people demanding that other people conform to their personal opinion of the right way to play EVE, the only practical effects this is going to have are:
    1. Earning ISK will be slightly harder for some new players.

That's it.

  • Alts that want to grind missions in safety will migrate to one-man corps.

  • Alts that want to grind missions in safety while still socializing with other alts will migrate to one-man corps and create/join public chat channels.

  • Players simply ignorant of player corporations will continue being ignorant.

  • Smart newbies will continue joining EVE University in their first week.

  • The economy will experience gradual inflation, the forums will be filled with tears, and the world will generally appear unchanged.


Lisa Amber
WEPRA CORP
Posted - 2009.09.21 09:42:00 - [335]
 

I'm in charge of recruiting in my corp and looking forward to this change. When trying to get people out from NPC corps I often get "ho you have a tax" as an answer. That kind of solo players are only focused on their income rate, so there's nothing you can answer to that. Now with that change, it's up to CEO's to put a 10% tax to undercut the NPC corp tax rate and make Empire recruiters work a bit easier :)

Robert Caldera
Posted - 2009.09.21 09:44:00 - [336]
 

dont think 11% are enough to pull the players out of NPC corps and enter player corps, where they may be wardecced.

CampxDavid
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.09.21 09:47:00 - [337]
 

I would suggest this is nothing to do with wanting more people in corps and everything to do with trying to combat inflation.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.21 09:48:00 - [338]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 21/09/2009 09:50:17
Originally by: Lisa Amber
I'm in charge of recruiting in my corp and looking forward to this change. When trying to get people out from NPC corps I often get "ho you have a tax" as an answer. That kind of solo players are only focused on their income rate, so there's nothing you can answer to that. Now with that change, it's up to CEO's to put a 10% tax to undercut the NPC corp tax rate and make Empire recruiters work a bit easier :)
And that's really what this is all about. It's not about "forcing" people out of NPC corps — it's about giving PC corps another tool to entice people into joining them.
Originally by: Garr Anders
  • The economy will experience gradual inflation, the forums will be filled with tears, and the world will generally appear unchanged.

Ehm…? How does less ISK being generated (or, possibly, same amounts of ISK of which some will be sunk into corp fees) cause gradual inflation?

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.21 09:58:00 - [339]
 

Originally by: Lisa Amber
I'm in charge of recruiting in my corp and looking forward to this change. When trying to get people out from NPC corps I often get "ho you have a tax" as an answer. That kind of solo players are only focused on their income rate, so there's nothing you can answer to that. Now with that change, it's up to CEO's to put a 10% tax to undercut the NPC corp tax rate and make Empire recruiters work a bit easier :)

If that's the kind of players you try to attract, it's a recipe for failure!
Once you get your first wardec, and they find they can not ISK-make in peace, they'll be out, you'll have wasted your effort, and they'd have had a bad experience of EVE because they were forced to do something they deep down didn't want!

You can not convert a solo-minded player into a group player! People evolve at their own speed into wanting to be in a group, or they don't. If they're forced, it's not going to end well.
Remember, this is a GAME people do voluntarily to have fun in the way they choose!

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2009.09.21 10:40:00 - [340]
 

Originally by: Tippia

Originally by: Lisa Amber
I'm in charge of recruiting in my corp and looking forward to this change. When trying to get people out from NPC corps I often get "ho you have a tax" as an answer. That kind of solo players are only focused on their income rate, so there's nothing you can answer to that. Now with that change, it's up to CEO's to put a 10% tax to undercut the NPC corp tax rate and make Empire recruiters work a bit easier :)
And that's really what this is all about. It's not about "forcing" people out of NPC corps it's about giving PC corps another tool to entice people into joining them.


Absolutely true. While some people (for god knows what reason) have fallen in love with being in an NPC corp and don't want to leave so they can keep talking to all the horrible newbies in there while grinding missions, that's a small price to pay for a fix that has been pending for a long time. Player corps now have an advantage over NPC corps.


Lisa Amber
WEPRA CORP
Posted - 2009.09.21 10:51:00 - [341]
 

Originally by: Kerfira

If that's the kind of players you try to attract, it's a recipe for failure!
Once you get your first wardec, and they find they can not ISK-make in peace, they'll be out, you'll have wasted your effort, and they'd have had a bad experience of EVE because they were forced to do something they deep down didn't want!

You can not convert a solo-minded player into a group player! People evolve at their own speed into wanting to be in a group, or they don't. If they're forced, it's not going to end well.
Remember, this is a GAME people do voluntarily to have fun in the way they choose!


Then this pilot can always quit when the wardec comes... I'm not forcing anyone. But for ten guys like that, you may find one who eventually got the taste of "corp thinking", stick with us, help in the war and actually start to enjoy an other part of the game. I was one of these solo players at first, and what made me stay/come back in the game is not the so interesting and challenging PVE aspect of Eve, but to tag along with some friends and contribute to something bigger than my personal wallet. We're playing a MMO game after all for frak's sake, and the best of all if you ask me! And I know there are some other guys like me out there in NPC corps, I meet them quite often. And the change CCP just made will not "force" them to play social, to be the slave of a greedy CEO or any other BS. It will just help me to convince them to give it a shot.

GuntiNDDS
Posted - 2009.09.21 10:54:00 - [342]
 

Edited by: GuntiNDDS on 21/09/2009 10:54:15
you guys seem very desperate for players joining your corps. maybe you should ask yourself the question why your corp doesnt have many players...

ps: its not because of the tax. lol
Laughing

Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Not Found.
Posted - 2009.09.21 11:00:00 - [343]
 

Edited by: Sky Marshal on 21/09/2009 11:00:54

Quote:
And the change CCP just made will not "force" them to play social, to be the slave of a greedy CEO or any other BS. It will just help me to convince them to give it a shot.


So instead of saying that this tax will force people to go into a Corp, we will say that it will force people to TRY to go into a Corp.

Just two more words ^^

lollerwaffle
Sileo In Pacis
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.09.21 11:12:00 - [344]
 

'11% OMG IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!!11!!one!!'

Magic numbers able to induce pages of whining and crying. Jeebus, it's just 11%! A fraction of some imaginary number in a game and people are crying about being 'forced' to do things, arguments about 'sandbox' etc.

All I can say is, IMO CCP created this game with a griefer mindset. All they have to do is make slight changes every now and again and just sit back watching the tears and emorage from the playerbase. Go go CCP! Twisted Evil Can I haz job?

Avalon Champion
Black Thorne Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.21 11:15:00 - [345]
 

Originally by: Sky Marshal
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 21/09/2009 11:00:54

Quote:
And the change CCP just made will not "force" them to play social, to be the slave of a greedy CEO or any other BS. It will just help me to convince them to give it a shot.


So instead of saying that this tax will force people to go into a Corp, we will say that it will force people to TRY to go into a Corp.

Just two more words ^^


Even better would be to use the word 'Encourage' instead of force, thus you could say : It will Encourage people to try out player corps.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2009.09.21 11:21:00 - [346]
 

Originally by: Sky Marshal
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 21/09/2009 11:00:54

Quote:
And the change CCP just made will not "force" them to play social, to be the slave of a greedy CEO or any other BS. It will just help me to convince them to give it a shot.


So instead of saying that this tax will force people to go into a Corp, we will say that it will force people to TRY to go into a Corp.

Just two more words ^^


Forcing implies that the players will be made to do it against their will. This is clearly not the case, so his choice of words was correct and yours was not. Those little words might not seem important at first glance, but they describe two totally different scenarios.

Aurora Nyx
Inglorious-Basterds
Posted - 2009.09.21 11:24:00 - [347]
 

Personally i don't care wether NPC corps get taxed or not, any missions i run i do on another toon in my own corp, but you gotta laugh at how many people are saying "We've been taxed in player corps for years ! It's more than 11%! Why should they get a free ride ?", or words to that effect. If your corp taxes are so bad that you need "revenge" on NPC corps, do something about it.

One thing does concern me though. How many new 1-man corps will spring up, with alts holding "spare" corps in case of war-decs ? Isn't this going to impact the database and it's load ?

Xandr0ss
Posted - 2009.09.21 11:35:00 - [348]
 

This is a stupid idea, as people have said it will affect the newer players, and make them have to grind more to get small amounts of isk.

There are a lot of people who don't want to join a player corp, and I think putting those players off the game is a bad idea, and doesn't really help the game.

If you think it will encourage people to join player corps you are wrong, there are a lot of casual players who like npc corps because they don't have any duties or responsibilities and can play how they like, when they like.

11% just means 11% more grind for newer players.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2009.09.21 11:54:00 - [349]
 

Bah, this discussion is boring now.

It has already been established that it will only have tiny impact on the income from mission running, and and will not be anymore bothersome than refining and trade taxes.

Btw. taxes seems to be a new buzzword in Dominion, as CCP seems to have planned more in that regard with implementing estate tax for sovereignty holders. I expect when the numbers have been fixed we will see threads similar to this pop up from that of the player base. I wonder if the responses will be the same.

Avalon Champion
Black Thorne Corporation
Posted - 2009.09.21 12:19:00 - [350]
 

Originally by: Xandr0ss
This is a stupid idea, as people have said it will affect the newer players, and make them have to grind more to get small amounts of isk.

There are a lot of people who don't want to join a player corp, and I think putting those players off the game is a bad idea, and doesn't really help the game.

If you think it will encourage people to join player corps you are wrong, there are a lot of casual players who like npc corps because they don't have any duties or responsibilities and can play how they like, when they like.

11% just means 11% more grind for newer players.


It will only start to impact newer players when they start to run top end level 2 combat missions, and a few very rare Level 1 missions where the mission rewards exceed 100K, and individual bounties exceed 30K.

Recon 1 of 3 being a prime example of a highend level 2 mission, where the drop in income is about 200K, and thats not a major drop.

However by the time you're ready to run the Level 2 Recon, you're going to have a decent wallet anyway.

The income drop starts to hit on Level 3 and 4 missions, where you can loose between 4-6 mil in tax, but thats on something like AE 4, (IIRC) the bounties total 30-40mil, and the reward is 3-4 mil.

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.21 12:21:00 - [351]
 

Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Bah, this discussion is boring now.

It has already been established that it will only have tiny impact on the income from mission running, and and will not be anymore bothersome than refining and trade taxes.

Btw. taxes seems to be a new buzzword in Dominion, as CCP seems to have planned more in that regard with implementing estate tax for sovereignty holders. I expect when the numbers have been fixed we will see threads similar to this pop up from that of the player base. I wonder if the responses will be the same.


The 3% figure is only applicable to certain statistical scenario. Weather the change has a net effect of 3%,4%,5%,..9,5345345% or 10% lies completly in the individual players playstyle.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.21 12:34:00 - [352]
 

Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Bah, this discussion is boring now.

It has already been established that it will only have tiny impact on the income from mission running, and and will not be anymore bothersome than refining and trade taxes.

Btw. taxes seems to be a new buzzword in Dominion, as CCP seems to have planned more in that regard with implementing estate tax for sovereignty holders. I expect when the numbers have been fixed we will see threads similar to this pop up from that of the player base. I wonder if the responses will be the same.


0.0 alliances already pay a vast "tax" in the form of POS maintenance. 1 billion for a deathstar plus ~300m/month in ice and NPC goods. And 1 sov POS is the bare minimum; important systems like station systems need at least 6.

And it's not just the ISK; someone has to haul and deliver all that fuel, on time and the right amounts.

Frankly, just paying some ISK will be a welcome relief

Julian Lynq
Posted - 2009.09.21 12:41:00 - [353]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Bah, this discussion is boring now.

It has already been established that it will only have tiny impact on the income from mission running, and and will not be anymore bothersome than refining and trade taxes.

Btw. taxes seems to be a new buzzword in Dominion, as CCP seems to have planned more in that regard with implementing estate tax for sovereignty holders. I expect when the numbers have been fixed we will see threads similar to this pop up from that of the player base. I wonder if the responses will be the same.


0.0 alliances already pay a vast "tax" in the form of POS maintenance. 1 billion for a deathstar plus ~300m/month in ice and NPC goods. And 1 sov POS is the bare minimum; important systems like station systems need at least 6.

And it's not just the ISK; someone has to haul and deliver all that fuel, on time and the right amounts.

Frankly, just paying some ISK will be a welcome relief


LOL. Besides that they also earn vast amounts of trillions through isk-moon mining.

Sentinel Borg
Posted - 2009.09.21 12:41:00 - [354]
 

How about something like that:

- 15% tax in NPC corporations
AND
- the ability for every player corporation to rent Concord security in high sec for a 10% extra tax

So players corps can be immune to wardecs in high sec, if the pay the price for it.

Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp
Not Found.
Posted - 2009.09.21 12:43:00 - [355]
 

Edited by: Sky Marshal on 21/09/2009 12:43:30
Originally by: Avalon Champion
Even better would be to use the word 'Encourage' instead of force, thus you could say : It will Encourage people to try out player corps.



Permit me to add some words : It will encourage people to try out [1-Man] player corps ^^

Virtual immunity instead of real immunity, but no more problem to install a POS etc... And I am sure that there will have some new channels to keep social relations with older SAK/others guys.

Quote:
Forcing implies that the players will be made to do it against their will. This is clearly not the case, so his choice of words was correct and yours was not. Those little words might not seem important at first glance, but they describe two totally different scenarios.


Punish guys to not act like they should is not "encourage people to", it is "force people to" to avoid the punishment.

The real problem is the habitual communication problem of CCP. Not only they don't still add it in the Patch Notes, but they indicate this reason instead of a RP reason or something like this.

Domoso
Posted - 2009.09.21 12:50:00 - [356]
 

A tax on an NPC corp? Aside from the obvious motivations for CCP behind this change, I don't really see any benefit for the NPC corp player.

As a player corp member there are usually benefits such as equipment purchases, tag alongs on lowsec/nullsec mining, PVP training, teamwork, production & research facilities, protection from harrassment, mentorships. With few exceptions there is none of that in an NPC corp. There is no benefit to being in an NPC corp except wardec immunity. But that is because of a deficiency in the mechanics of the game. There are no corporateless players. If there were, guess what, they'd have wardec immunity because you can't wardec an individual.

As a solo player, why then am I either going to be forced into a player corporation, which I never wanted to do in the first place, or be gouged 11% on my income for choosing not to take advantage of the benefits of corporate life. As a solo player I have the freedom to come and go as I please but, I've also got to figure out the game on my own. I pay for every ship I purchase, every module, every book. When I go into lowsec or nullsec I'm alone, not in a gang that affords me a certain amount of protection. If I want to get into production I've got to learn the skills. I can't go to a corporate member and get them to produce some stuff for me at cost that I can then turn around and sell for a tidy profit. If I have a bunch of crap to move, I move it myself or I pay someone else to do it. Can't go to a corp member and ask them to help me out.

Other then immunity from wars that are, from what I gather, for the most part based on stupidity, I have no benefits. But, if CCP had allowed player existance to be separate from being in a corp, I'd have that anyway. And that is what an NPC corp. provides by proxy.....a corporateless existence which should already be part of the game!!!!!!!!

Bjron
Posted - 2009.09.21 12:50:00 - [357]
 

* flys a Freighter in *


E\''F

........ Begening QQ fill up, please wait.........

E'!''F

.........Please wait................


"Warning, overload! Warning*
.
.
E'''/F


*QQ extraction Complete, loads left OVER 9000!*


Thnak you for using QQ extractor Version 1.5!




Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.21 12:51:00 - [358]
 

Originally by: Sky Marshal
Edited by: Sky Marshal on 21/09/2009 12:43:30
Originally by: Avalon Champion
Even better would be to use the word 'Encourage' instead of force, thus you could say : It will Encourage people to try out player corps.



Permit me to add some words : It will encourage people to try out [1-Man] player corps ^^

Virtual immunity instead of real immunity, but no more problem to install a POS etc... And I am sure that there will have some new channels to keep social relations with older SAK/others guys.

Quote:
Forcing implies that the players will be made to do it against their will. This is clearly not the case, so his choice of words was correct and yours was not. Those little words might not seem important at first glance, but they describe two totally different scenarios.


Punish guys to not act like they should is not "encourage people to", it is "force people to" to avoid the punishment.

The real problem is the habitual communication problem of CCP. Not only they don't still add it in the Patch Notes, but they indicate this reason instead of a RP reason or something like this.


Jesus you're butthurt.

OK how about they dont get the tax, but they do get a 150 mill a month CONCORD bill?

Daneshi SnowCrash
Posted - 2009.09.21 12:56:00 - [359]
 

I would ask questions about this; I would make a statement about those of us helping new players and filling in the grand canyon sized gaps left by the NPE.

But I know that the fraction of a percentage of the player base, those who actually manifest on the forums would be running after me for my precious bodily fluids...

I can't see an 11% tax affecting me. The vast majority of my ISK comes from mining, production and generally playing with the market. I mean unless 11% of my inventory is going to magic itself away overnight; which doesn't appear to be the case.

On the plus side, as someone who does help the nubs, I'll just figure out the exact ISK/hr loss any mission activity takes and convince my cohorts to charge the noobs for answers to make up the difference. I mean, this change is for bending over nubs, so lets REALLY bend them over.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.21 13:28:00 - [360]
 

Originally by: Domoso
A tax on an NPC corp? Aside from the obvious motivations for CCP behind this change, I don't really see any benefit for the NPC corp player.
Yeeees…?
Why should there be a benefit in it for them? (And I'm doing the silly thing of assuming that you mean added benefit here, since there are quite a few benefits already.)


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