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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.20 17:54:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: Ukucia

Pot, meet kettle.




NO U!

Link to examples, plx

wallenbergaren
Posted - 2009.09.20 18:04:00 - [272]
 

So many tears of something that will have such small impact

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.20 18:16:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: Neesa Corrinne
All CCP needs to do in order to fix the 100,000 1 man player corps that would soon rise up after this change is:

1) 10 Players must join a new corporation within 48 hours of it forming for it to remain a viable corporation or it will dissolve.

2) Those first 10 players must be active training accounts.

This way, the new corporations won't simply be 10 alts and a mission runner, and the EVE universe also won't suddenly be flooded with thousands of new corps. A good side effect of this is that all of those "holder" alts that have been holding famous corp names for a couple years now will dissolve too, leaving those names open to be reused.

Lastly, The next patch is shaping up to be one of the best patches in EVE since the Trinity patch gave us shiny new graphics.


Better solution: all CCP (or you folks desperate for soft targets) has to do is come up with a carrot instead of a stick.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.20 18:17:00 - [274]
 

Btw i guess for me it would mean closer to 8% or somewhere arround that. Most missions are just not worth salvaging, even when i make wreck balls.

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.20 18:21:00 - [275]
 

Edited by: Ukucia on 20/09/2009 19:11:18
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Ukucia

Pot, meet kettle.




NO U!

Link to examples, plx

I'm not going to bother linking every single one of your posts in this thread, where you assume:
1) I can't PvP
2) I'm not playing EvE the "right" way.
3) I'm some lame anti-social ******.

Also missing from this 'debate' is the fact that each of the NPC corps have a different flavor, so the social experience in each corp is different. For example, The Scope is great for chatting and has virtual no spam. Aliestra is full of prepubescent freaks obsessed with sticking their **** in something, anything. But at least there's no spam.

IMO while CCP's tinkering with NPC corps, they should let us switch NPC corps instead of falling into a particular corp based on race & bloodline...but that would encourage us to play the wrong way in the sandbox, now wouldn't it?

Junko Togawa
Caldari
Posted - 2009.09.20 18:24:00 - [276]
 

Interesting thought: If CCP were to double all wardec fees, would this generate more or less tears than the addition of the NPC Corp tax? My guess is more, because of the 'WAAAAUGH CAREBEARS ARE TAKING OVER EVE' forumblob that would result. Just look at the epic scanner whines.

Future Mutant
Republic Military School
Posted - 2009.09.20 18:39:00 - [277]
 

Confirming im playing eve wrong-
I should join a corp and be their slave until they kick me. I should die repeatedly for no gain even though i have no interest in pvp.
My mission income is obviously too much- though the income some ppl enjoy from moon mining, though magnitudes higher then missioning, is obviously not high enough.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.20 18:44:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Future Mutant
Confirming im playing eve wrong-
I should join a corp and be their slave until they kick me. I should die repeatedly for no gain



Well yes, you are Minmatar, after all.

mechtech
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2009.09.20 20:06:00 - [279]
 

I like this tax. It's 1 more reason to get new players out into a real corp so they can enjoy the game. (most new players that quit do so because they never got into a corp, and essentially had no social interaction)

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.09.20 20:53:00 - [280]
 

While I certainly oppose any move to force people to leave NPC corps, I like the idea of making changes to the way NPC corps operate to remove the incentives for staying in them. The 'corp tax' is part of the solution, but there needs to be more.

* Corp tax. Done.
* RoE. Members of NPC corps should be entirely banned from commiting aggressive acts by their NPC corp leadership. This means no can theft, no attacks in low sec, no suicide attacks in high sec, etc. Whether this would impact nullsec also is up for debate. Note that this only covers initiating aggression; members of NPC corps would be welcome to respond to aggressive acts against themselves as normal.
* Salvage. Members of NPC corps only have salvage rights for ships they destroyed, or that their gang destroyed. No more ninja-salvagers in NPC corps.
* Trade. Members of NPC corps are limited in the number of buy/sell orders or contracts they may have at any one time. Perhaps 5-10 market orders and 3 contracts.
* Standings. Members of NPC corps are treated as having standings no greater than +0 for purposes of refine tax at NPC stations, and also for calculating effective agent quality (though not for purposes of access to agents). This would affect mining, loot refine, mission payments, and loyalty point awards.

None of these changes would greatly impact a new player working on building basic skills, nor would it impact most pilots who were in an NPC corp temporarily. They would significantly impact the ability of people who abuse NPC corp status to gain permanent immunity to wardecs for missions-running, market manipulation, mining, ore theft, ninja-salvaging, piracy, or contract scamming. They also provide a basic reduction (not an extreme reduction) in profitability of all forms of income generation, not just one or two.

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.09.20 21:07:00 - [281]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 20/09/2009 21:12:17

So many posters here fall for the same trap, which CCP does as well, of introducing a negative mechanic to encourage behaviour rather than a positive. This is a game, not real life, so anything that adds to the annoyance factor simply increases a player's odds of playing something else.

It never works the way its intended as if player leave NPC corps over the tax its for the wrong reason and they will simply quit or go back to the NPC corp and pay the tax. A few may be encouraged to PVP but that will be a tiny amount. If players want to PVP they need a REASON to beyond being dumb cannon fodder or fish in a barrel.

There are too many lazy mechanics popping up in this game recently. There are also too many players who seriously thinks others should play the game for their entertainment and how it suits them. Reminds me of little children who's whole world revolves around them. Tough luck, not all of us are as committed and many of us play other games too and have plenty of activities to be getting on with, all of which compete with our time.

CCP please start thinking a bit smarter about what you do, the scanning change is another example of an easy fix which will not do anything positive at all.

Either ban NPC corp or give players a damn good reason to leave them. Silly taxes do nothing except annoy.



Emeline Cabernet
Amarr
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
Posted - 2009.09.20 21:25:00 - [282]
 

I guess its a start... should be alot more. 25-30% at least.

Also after 3months or so npc corp players should be moved to npc you can war dec or at least shot in fw.


PostWithYourAlt
Posted - 2009.09.20 21:34:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: Emeline Cabernet
I guess its a start... should be alot more. 25-30% at least.

Also after 3months or so npc corp players should be moved to npc you can war dec or at least shot in fw.




and automaticly transfered into morsus mihi space with a red blinking beacon in overview and throwing a message to all of morsus mihi members saying "defensless target #234239 now waiting for you in system x. For your convinience we have allready scrabled and webbed him."

? Wink

Arec Bardwin
Posted - 2009.09.20 21:35:00 - [284]
 

Originally by: Zartanic

So many posters here fall for the same trap, which CCP does as well, of introducing a negative mechanic to encourage behaviour rather than a positive. This is a game, not real life, so anything that adds to the annoyance factor simply increases a player's odds of playing something else.

It never works the way its intended as if player leave NPC corps over the tax its for the wrong reason and they will simply quit or go back to the NPC corp and pay the tax. A few may be encouraged to PVP but that will be a tiny amount. If players want to PVP they need a REASON to beyond being dumb cannon fodder or fish in a barrel.

There are too many lazy mechanics popping up in this game recently. There are also too many players who seriously thinks others should play the game for their entertainment and how it suits them. Reminds me of little children who's whole world revolves around them. Tough luck, not all of us are as committed and many of us play other games too and have plenty of activities to be getting on with, all of which compete with our time.

CCP please start thinking a bit smarter about what you do, the scanning change is another example of an easy fix which will not do anything positive at all.

Either ban NPC corp or give players a damn good reason to leave them. Silly taxes do nothing except annoy.


I have to agree with this. Good post!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.20 21:36:00 - [285]
 

Originally by: Zartanic
So many posters here fall for the same trap, which CCP does as well, of introducing a negative mechanic to encourage behaviour rather than a positive.
No, what it does is open up the possibility for a positive measure when there previously was none: now, corps can recruit on the basis of having low taxes — something that was previously impossible.
Quote:
It never works the way its intended as if player leave NPC corps over the tax its for the wrong reason and they will simply quit or go back to the NPC corp and pay the tax.
Good. Then they've learned a lesson and that's a positive thing.
Quote:
There are too many lazy mechanics popping up in this game recently.
How is something that has been around since forever suddenly a "lazy mechanic" that "pops up recently"?
Quote:
give players a damn good reason to leave them.
There are plenty of reasons to leave an NPC corp, but the problem is that most of them are aimed at industrialists. This measure is aimed at mission runners, or more accurately at giving PC corps a point of leverage towards convincing these players to join.
Quote:
Silly taxes do nothing except annoy.
How?

Emeline Cabernet
Amarr
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Sev3rance
Posted - 2009.09.20 21:42:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: PostWithYourAlt
Originally by: Emeline Cabernet
I guess its a start... should be alot more. 25-30% at least.

Also after 3months or so npc corp players should be moved to npc you can war dec or at least shot in fw.




and automaticly transfered into morsus mihi space with a red blinking beacon in overview and throwing a message to all of morsus mihi members saying "defensless target #234239 now waiting for you in system x. For your convinience we have allready scrabled and webbed him."

? Wink

Oh yeah you totally got me. WinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWink

Zartanic
Posted - 2009.09.20 22:18:00 - [287]
 

Edited by: Zartanic on 20/09/2009 22:19:57
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Zartanic
So many posters here fall for the same trap, which CCP does as well, of introducing a negative mechanic to encourage behaviour rather than a positive.
No, what it does is open up the possibility for a positive measure when there previously was none: now, corps can recruit on the basis of having low taxes something that was previously impossible.
Quote:
It never works the way its intended as if player leave NPC corps over the tax its for the wrong reason and they will simply quit or go back to the NPC corp and pay the tax.
Good. Then they've learned a lesson and that's a positive thing.
Quote:
There are too many lazy mechanics popping up in this game recently.
How is something that has been around since forever suddenly a "lazy mechanic" that "pops up recently"?
Quote:
give players a damn good reason to leave them.
There are plenty of reasons to leave an NPC corp, but the problem is that most of them are aimed at industrialists. This measure is aimed at mission runners, or more accurately at giving PC corps a point of leverage towards convincing these players to join.
Quote:
Silly taxes do nothing except annoy.
How?


I'll sum it up for you:

You have two ways to motivate people.

1. Carrot

2. Stick

In real life we have the police, the government, anyone who feels like it, using the stick as and when they like as they can, we can't switch life off. So we put up with it.

In a game its the opposite, we can switch off. And for some of us that's easy to do.

So if a mechanic is introduced that punishes rather than encourages its will hurt the game. If players don't want PVE or solo players then fine, but if they like their subs, which I assume CCP do, then they should try and encourage and not detract from game play.

Its very easy to make a stick, scanning changes are another recent example, encouraging takes a lot of thought and effort. Its lazy putting in an arbitrary 11% tax that will be easily avoided anyway...as it was not thought through properly.





IVeige
Caldari
IVever.
Posted - 2009.09.20 22:21:00 - [288]
 

didn't have enough one player corp anyway Rolling Eyes

kai freeborn
Posted - 2009.09.20 22:26:00 - [289]
 

wonder how long till corp fees get adjusted to be more inline with other expenses ))))

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2009.09.20 22:28:00 - [290]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 20/09/2009 22:29:16
Originally by: Zartanic
I'll sum it up for you:

You have two ways to motivate people.

1. Carrot

2. Stick

In real life we have the police, the government, anyone who feels like it, using the stick as as when they like as they can, we can't switch life off. So we put up with it.

In a game its the opposite, we can switch off. And for some of us that's easy to do.

So if a mechanic is introduced that punishes rather than encourages its will hurt the game. If players don't want PVE or solo players then fine, but if they like their subs, which I assume CCP do, then they should try and encourage and not detract from game play.

Its very easy to make a stick, scanning changes are another recent example, encouraging takes a lot of thought and effort. Its lazy putting in an arbitrary 11% tax that will be easily avoided anyway...as it was not thought through properly.

Zartanic hits this one right on the spot....

Not only is the 11% easily avoided. That avoidance (1-man corp) will also deprive the people using it of the social interaction they already DO have in their corp. Their corp just happens to be an NPC corp, without thieving leaders, corp politics, unwanted PvP, etc.

Why an MMO company chooses to punish people OUT of what social interaction they have is something I REALLY can't see the logic in....

This seem to be aimed at mission running alts, but they'll just as happily create a 1-man corp and go on their business. The collateral damage will be people who LIKE the NPC corp atmosphere as it suits their casual way of playing....

As Zartanic implies, this seem to be yet another spur-of-the-moment knee-jerk change by CCP, without considering pros/cons or consequences for different player types....

Mr. Orange
Gallente
Band of Freelancers
Posted - 2009.09.20 22:37:00 - [291]
 

Wow! A WHOLE 11%... Rolling Eyes

Wake me up when you're really serious about this issue CCP. Confused


Start with 50% ffs, this will motivate people to get into player corps...

AstroPhobic
Minmatar
Holding Corp
Posted - 2009.09.20 22:55:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Mr. Orange
Wow! A WHOLE 11%... Rolling Eyes

Wake me up when you're really serious about this issue CCP. Confused


Start with 50% ffs, this will motivate people to get into player corps...


Issue? Where?

If CCP was "serious" about this "issue", they'd use a carrot. There's no incentive for me, currently, to join a player corp. In fact, it could pretty much only be detrimental.

The only difference between me in an NPC corp and me in my own 1-player corp is the ability to wardec. Is the inability to wardec highsec carebears really such an "issue" to you?

I don't like the 0.0 playstyle so I reside in empire instead. And yes, I'm a pvp player.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2009.09.20 23:05:00 - [293]
 

WAIT WAIT STOP THE PRESSES I HAVE A GREAT IDEA!!!



Players can make their own 1 man corp or 2 man corp and set the tax to 0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


OMG.

WIN!


I R genius cat!!!

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2009.09.20 23:23:00 - [294]
 

If you, CCP, really wants to get soloish and newer players into player corps, then redo the entire corp security thing. Lots of corps don't want to bother with newer players or even vets because of all the spies, scammers, corp thieves and meta game stuff that goes on. The corps need better reasons too, right now it is a chore. Getting a new player up to speed can be an effort as it is, much less having to worry about them messing something up, even if they are not a spy or meta gaming A-hat.

One of the core things of Eve is social interaction, it's one of the things you, CCP, always promote. But trust should not be forced upon either party, people trust others because they want to, not because they have to. When "trust" is forced through functionality, or the lack of, then it creates suspicion and resentment. This is counter to wanting to create bonds between people.

zombiedeadhead
Minmatar
The Tuskers
Posted - 2009.09.20 23:38:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: Obsidian Hawk
WAIT WAIT STOP THE PRESSES I HAVE A GREAT IDEA!!!



Players can make their own 1 man corp or 2 man corp and set the tax to 0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


OMG.

WIN!


I R genius cat!!!



C'mon, only ****ers, ****ers, ****s and ****s would do something so ****ing lame.

Yuna Lily
Posted - 2009.09.20 23:48:00 - [296]
 

"It's not in the sisi patch notes because I don't know how to edit them, I think I have to mail them to someone who has access to it and then it is edited in. This hasn't been properly set up yet but for the next sisi update I think there will be more and more accurate notes ( at least from me)

It's a change meant to encourage people to join a player corporation and ofcourse concord needs to pay wages to their pilots on a regular basis


Oh we came to 11% after researching what the average tax was in player corporations, the NPC tax is a little bit above that average. "


Too all CCP employees not married! If I was a real female you would get laid for free on patch day for this! You also forgot taxes for mining so macroers can't just strip mine belts.

Yuna Lily
Posted - 2009.09.20 23:55:00 - [297]
 

Ok I went a little overboard with this...

Ukucia
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2009.09.21 00:24:00 - [298]
 

Edited by: Ukucia on 21/09/2009 00:24:52
Originally by: Becq Starforged
While I certainly oppose any move to force people to leave NPC corps, I like the idea of making changes to the way NPC corps operate to remove the incentives for staying in them. The 'corp tax' is part of the solution, but there needs to be more.

* Corp tax. Done.
* RoE. Members of NPC corps should be entirely banned from commiting aggressive acts by their NPC corp leadership. This means no can theft, no attacks in low sec, no suicide attacks in high sec, etc. Whether this would impact nullsec also is up for debate. Note that this only covers initiating aggression; members of NPC corps would be welcome to respond to aggressive acts against themselves as normal.
* Salvage. Members of NPC corps only have salvage rights for ships they destroyed, or that their gang destroyed. No more ninja-salvagers in NPC corps.
* Trade. Members of NPC corps are limited in the number of buy/sell orders or contracts they may have at any one time. Perhaps 5-10 market orders and 3 contracts.
* Standings. Members of NPC corps are treated as having standings no greater than +0 for purposes of refine tax at NPC stations, and also for calculating effective agent quality (though not for purposes of access to agents). This would affect mining, loot refine, mission payments, and loyalty point awards.

None of these changes would greatly impact a new player working on building basic skills, nor would it impact most pilots who were in an NPC corp temporarily. They would significantly impact the ability of people who abuse NPC corp status to gain permanent immunity to wardecs for missions-running, market manipulation, mining, ore theft, ninja-salvaging, piracy, or contract scamming. They also provide a basic reduction (not an extreme reduction) in profitability of all forms of income generation, not just one or two.


Sure. However, I'm convinced that the people playing in 0.0 are also playing the game wrong. So here's the changes that CCP should implement:

* Ammo tax. Every shot fired costs 100,000 ISK. This is to prevent all the people gearing up their ships to perma-tank rats and just plinking away at them. Now players will be encouraged to rat in groups, as was intended.
* Deportation. As the people who have traveled to 0.0 have abandoned the empire factions, the empire factions have decided to ban re-entry into empire space. Violators will simply explode as they pass into 0.1 space. This ban is shared among all accounts registered to the same email address or home address. Home addresses will now be verified by CCP.
* Trade. There isn't enough of a vibrant market in 0.0, so empire navies will now be confiscating everything in the cargoholds of ships leaving empire space. This will encourage players in 0.0 to recruit crafters.

[/sarcasm]

Just because you play the game differently, that doesn't give you the right to tell others how to play the game. The entire point of a sandbox game is to let the players come up with their own playstyles.

Lotus Sutra
Caldari
Sutra Inc
Posted - 2009.09.21 00:26:00 - [299]
 

Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 21/09/2009 00:55:06
Originally by: Gunner Dark
Originally by: Aurorae Andromedae
Originally by: In4r4
I hope this does nudge people into player corps , this character is a trading alt , and NPC corp chat is full of long term NPC corp mission runners telling everyone who will listen not to join a player corp, because they will either lose all their money to a greedy CEO or die every day without fail.
They will, they all will create one man corporation and set tax at zero. That will cost 1.6 million ISK to him. Now wardec is 50 million isk. When wardec comes, the mission runner closes the corporation and wardec gone. And pvp'ers lost 50 million and mission runner 1.6 million. Now the mission runner can make a new corporation straight away, wich costs him that 1.6 million isk again. But they have to wait 24 hour period with new wardec.

There will be no tears, just god damn long employment lists.


You are still patting yourself on the back for your "unique idea " Lotus Sutra ?


If that was actually me, I would have said yes, but it's not, so no. You do fail at being able to identify someone by their typing styles. Also.. why do you have such a hard on for me? Do you dislike that I explained to everyone exactly how easy it will be to cost pirate griefers isk, at virtually no cost to themselves? This andromeda person put the costs in isk, I didn't do that because I didn't think about it first, but I am glad she did because it shows just how much pirates are going to lose when or if this goes live and they start war deccing 1 man corps. Did that make you mad so now you have to bring my name into a post that isn't even mine and try and accuse me of being someone different? I don't need to hide behind another alt to post. I posted what I wanted to and if you or anyone else doesn't like it you know where you can go.

It doesn't change anything though. I pointed out and illustrated exactly how easy it is going to be for mission runners to gank the gankers wallets and even if others mentioned variations on what I said (opening and closing corps, not opening many 1 man corps and hopping around them as needed), It changes nothing. If this goes live, then you can expect me to create 18 1 man corps and I will hop my alts around them as needed to not be inconvenienced by little girls on a perpetual period looking to make others lives in an internet spaceships game miserable.

I will enjoy all the emorage and tears from people just like you who think they are smart when they are really not very smart at all.




Ghoest
Posted - 2009.09.21 00:31:00 - [300]
 

There should be no tax for players under 5 million SP - unless you are going to stop the silly war decs on corps of noob players.


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