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Miner Bob
Gods Of Wrath
Posted - 2009.10.11 18:28:00 - [211]
 

Edited by: Miner Bob on 11/10/2009 18:28:44
they shouldnt let moms/supercarriers dock

in a propper 0.0 system with the upgrades - it will make the supercarriers invul
cyno jammer prevents dreads (and even if there wasnt 1 - it would take like 250 dreads to jump in and melt it)
There is no real way to kill a station hugging mothership in the 1 min docking timer - aside from like 20 titans instapopping it

on a side note - they need to make it so the ddd doesnt work on other supercaps - to Oprevent this exact problem in a fight

edit - they also need to remove self destruct as with the new ehp a supercarrier can easily self destruct before it can be killed

Krystal Flores
Amarr
Missions Mining and Mayhem
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.10.11 18:34:00 - [212]
 

Originally by: Blueaise

As it stands FB's can kill a titan very quickly, and because (as stated on the titan thread) the titan has lol drone BW it has no defense other than SB's had they been fitted.


Ive noticed this, in my Hel i was able to do a ton of damge to my corpmates avatar (80% armor) before it killed me. To be fair i was like 150km away and it couldnt hit my w/o dd.
Still, the fighter Bombers seem to do too much dmg.
also the "Super carrier should be much bigger than a carrier
and defencive fighters soulds like a good idea.

Sea Gate
Caldari
Sea Gate Corp
Posted - 2009.10.11 19:23:00 - [213]
 

Not being able to hold 20 bombers + 20 fighters isnt cool.

And the models need to be bigger...

Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.11 20:01:00 - [214]
 

DPS is fien, contrary to titan or dreads, their weapons are destructable (FB/Fighters/Drone). Make use of support fleets (which you should have) and it will be fine.

Wasn't able to test how much officer smartbombs would hurt them though, anyone checked? How much HP those FB have?

Chuck Skull
b.b.k
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2009.10.11 20:50:00 - [215]
 

Edited by: Chuck Skull on 11/10/2009 20:54:01
Had a blast in FFA2 and 9 with an RR nyx fleet of doom and a handful of titans for a few hours last night. Lots of killmails later, here's what I noticed;

All 4 super carriers need a larger drone bay OR "Fighter bays". You cannot fit a flight of Fighters along with Bombers at the moment, you need to choose in advance, nor can you bring any real number of spares should you choose bombers. You should at least have room for a second flight if the first meets it maker. This seems uncharacteristic of what is supposed to be the ultimate class of carrier.

The supercap EHP buff is very good, it balances nicely with the titan weapon from what I could tell. Although the titan weapon makes armour tanked caps even more desirable as they can eat up a couple of them with their otherwise useless shields and have their main tank for the battle. Whereas shield tankers(even the rag and leviathan) usually lose their main tank in the first exchanges and will generally succumb soon after.

We really need a new class of reps(remote and local) for super capitals. Even when we had 6 nyx's each with 3 bonus'd perma running(<3 avatar cap recharge bonus) capital remote reps each it was taking an eternity just to rep back peoples buffer. The danger of that is of course, with so much active tank on the supercaps they would just become impossible to ill. Not sure how you're going to figure it out, but repping back 2-3mil armour with the current reps feels awfully familiar to repping poses.

On the flip side of that. Of course you could argue that a heavily damaged supercapital should take a long time to repair and if done right might make damaging them in combat still worthwhile even if you fail to destroy them, forcing your enemy to choose between repping back up or deploying while missing most of it's buffer into the next fight. Nowadays we often see cap battles raging for hours, spanning multiple smaller engagements this could definitely play into that.

Now for the contentious; "Can I dock it?" question. Titans no, never, It's a supercap, end of.

Supercarriers is more tricky to answer, yes they are now very powerful, but currently they are NOT supercaps. They just aren't, yes we call them that, and have all kinds of grand ideas about what a supercap should be and could do, but it's irrelevant as the current version of supercarriers just aren't supercapital sized. Go put a Nyx next to an Erebus and try to tell me with a straight face they're in the same weight class. They're not even close.

So two paths you can take from here; you either change them, so that their total length/size is at least half that of a titan, perhaps along with some tweaking to boni. Thereby giving them true supercap status. Or leave them as they are and let us dock them because in reality they are just a tier 2 carrier. They're the same size, do the same job, they simply cost vastly more and for that you get vastly increased effectiveness.

From what I can see, these change are all intended to take the supercarriers from their position of neglected middle child and into a frontline role. All the changes a huge step in the right direction, but those who can afford these huge amounts of money(and alts) involved will more likely favour the new buffed titans. Due to sheer firepower of the superweapon and the utility of the jump bridge. Leaving mom's back where they started, much vaunted and admired, but come fight day usually left sitting in a pos.

If you(CCP) really want these ships to become front line combat vessels they need to become true supercaps in size and ability, or they need to be dockable thereby effectively lowering the bar for entry and increasing use.

Personally, I say let them dock, and whatever takes the mothership moniker can become the undockable super powerful drone boat, on par with a titan in cost/effectiveness. Docking games are another issue entirely.

Oljud Zork
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.11 23:37:00 - [216]
 

Edited by: Oljud Zork on 11/10/2009 23:46:17
I am a dedicated Archon pilot, and I have seen my fare share of fights. I can fly the Aeon, I have tried it, but NO I donīt fly one on the TQ.

A lot of the posting in this thread are complete bullocks by people that obvious donīt dedicate there life to the game mechanics that control the use of Carriers and Mother Ships. I will in this post refer to the momīs as "Super Carrier" or "SC".

Today are a SC an oversize carrier with "Awesome" written all over their hulls and they are true Super-Capitals even if they donīt share the size of titans. They are built in space and should never ever be able to dock! By making them dock-able only increase the accessibility of these ships and we will see an increase of SCīs.

During Fanfest did CCP present a brochure with some statistics, and according to that does it today exist on TQ roughly 400 SC. We all know that it exist about 233 Titans (see CAOD) and by letting more people access SC will it shift the balance of fielded Super-Capitals. It is not a curse not to be able to dock, it is a gift to forever float around in space, and if you really want to be an elitist and fly one. Then you have to stick with the drawback of not being able to dock.

If you can afford a SC then you are probably already using several accounts, and having one in the SC is not that bad. Another way are to by the pilot on the "Character Bazaar" and if you can by the SC, then by the character to pilot it...

About the tactics for fielding carriers and SC, there is nothing in EvE that works like "I win button" everything has to be balanced and it is that blend that make EvE to the ultimate game it is. We all have to adopt to the new mechanics when the mechanics are rebalanced. It is a constant evolution!

Stop complaining about that the Nyx have a much larger drone bay then the other SC, it is itīs racial thing. But sure the Nyx damage bonus to the Fighter Bombers (FB) are an issue. By going with the current bonus will the Nyx probably be the main choice for dedicated SC pilots. It needs a rebalance...

I like the new FB, they do what they are intended to do, and it is possible to keep them alive on the battle field. I tried them a lot on SiSi and the only thing I would like to see are some little more resists, or buffer to their HP.

About the size of the drone bays, I like the separate Fighter Bomber/Fighter bay and drone bay coming in Dominion. Right now on SiSi can I fit 25 Fighter Bombers in an Aeon, including my regular "vanilla drones" and honestly you donīt need 800 Warrior T2 drones, so this is forcing you to think twice before you stock up your regular drones. It will sort the pilots who know what he/she is doing from the noob with to much ISK to play with. Well everyone will always cry for more FB or Fighters, but you donīt need a metric-****ton of those.

Sure some replacement FB are nice and the resupplying part of an SC are tough, I mean the SC are unable to dock, so someone else has to fetch new drones for you (or your industrial alt can do it...)
Therefore do I suggest that all SC are allowed to fit in the FB/Fighter bay at least 25 (as current) but preferably 30 Fighter Bombers, and of course the Nyx should have the largest FB/Fighter bay of all SC.

I donīt think that SC should be able to field a full set of FB and Fighters, this kind of ruin the carriers role in the fleet, if you are in a SC stick to FB and let the carriers do the fighters. I believe that the SC role will be in the capital fleet, as a weapon against other capitals. A complement and a tool used by the Fleet Commanders in capital engagements. Super Carriers are not an OMG gank mobile used to troll around in low-sec...

Jump range, it would help the Fleet Commander a lot if a SC pilot with max jump skills are able to jump the same range as a dread with the jump skills on level IV. But it is logical that larger ships (more mass) has a shorter jump range or use more isotopes to jump the same distance.



Regards

Zork

Oljud Zork
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.11 23:45:00 - [217]
 

I ran out of letters...

To summarize my previous post, the SC are not a solo ship, it has a purpose in the fleet and by using it in the intended role do I think it has a lot to contribute with the changes in Dominion. I hope to see a few more SC fielded.

But donīt forget the Super Carrier need the Battleships and support ships and the other capitals so be that awesome that is actually are.

Now flame me!!

Regards
Zork

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.10.11 23:54:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Chuck Skull
you either change them, so that their total length/size is at least half that of a titan


+1 on making supercarriers much much larger.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.12 01:24:00 - [219]
 

why not make it +2 on the supercarriers

AL G0RE
Intergalactic Hunters of ManBearPig
Posted - 2009.10.12 01:27:00 - [220]
 

Given the recent trend of specialized bays, an ideal situation would be a 'fighter bay' which could hold 2 sets of fighters and a 'drone bay' of something like 300-400m3.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.12 02:04:00 - [221]
 

400m specced drone bay would be a good start

Ahz
Posted - 2009.10.12 02:05:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Reiisha
Originally by: Chuck Skull
you either change them, so that their total length/size is at least half that of a titan


+1 on making supercarriers much much larger.
I'd vote for having a look at the scale of all the carrier models. The Niddy is the same size as a Typhoon.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.12 02:16:00 - [223]
 

so make the niddy bigger and or the typhoon smaller

Walker Bulldog
Minmatar
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
Posted - 2009.10.12 09:08:00 - [224]
 

Just curious - how hard is it for a sniper HAC such as a Zealot/Muninn/Cerberus/Ishtar to pop a fighter-bomber? How long will it take 20 of them to completely defang a supercarrier?

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.12 09:15:00 - [225]
 

from my testing they are pretty tough. Youll need a few to deal with their damage im assuming

Ryan Coolness
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:28:00 - [226]
 

are you seriously suggesting that 10k dps is too much? on big targets nonetheless

heck, two dreads almost do the same damage, just that that damage has no travel time (except phailnix) and cant be shot down
the damage has to be this high to make bringing these ships to the frontlines worthwhile, otherwise we might just stick with the good old dread blobs which are more bang for the bug anyway

sure for a single ship the damage is impressive but also consider the cost and that there are lots of ways to completely eliminate that damage, if you cant figure out how then lol

plus the SC is meant as a pure combat ship, the titan on the other hand has some really powerful abilities to support fleets as well as considerable combat abilities on top, a SC should be superior in combat abilities to a titan as it has nothing else going for it

as for the hitting of pos with bombers, since when is that possible? when I tried last week (cant access game atm) I got an error message that the target is invalid since the bombers couldnt enter the forcefield, did that change?

if you are talking offline posses though, dont see much wrong with that

RazorPoint
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:34:00 - [227]
 

CCP, don't forget to change the description of the Triage Module. It still says; 'Can only be fitted on Carriers and Motherships'.

Oljud Zork
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:45:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: AL G0RE
Given the recent trend of specialized bays, an ideal situation would be a 'fighter bay' which could hold 2 sets of fighters and a 'drone bay' of something like 300-400m3.


Dear Al, a Dominix have a 375m3 Dronebay. Carriers and Super Carriers are supposed to be the mother of all drone ships, I really just hope that you just missed a zero in your post...

I currently have 4100m3 (total drone volume are 80 000m3) of Vanilla drones in my Archon. I am not going to teach you how the ultimate mix of carried drones look like.

NO you donīt need two full sets of Fighters or Fighter Bombers, some spare are handy and it is reasonable if you can field 10 Figthers that you have 5 spare on-board. If you canīt keep your drones alive then you are not supposed to fly a drone ship!

Carrier pilots think twice before they launch their fighters when massive support fleets are on the field, that's why we carry sentry drones...

Again Carriers and Super Carriers are not solo ships, call in your support or battleship fleet to deal with your enemies support fleet or bs fleet. Instead of sending massive waves of fighters, who will succumb to the fire from the enemies HACīs.

Super Carriers role are not to have an insane amount of Fighters and Fighter Bombers on-bord. They only need the full set of FB + 5-10 spare depending on the size of the FB/Fighter bay. The new Fighter Bombers are harder to kill then regular Fighters, and it will be interesting to see how they perform on the battlefield on TQ.

Regards

Zork

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.12 10:57:00 - [229]
 

yes they have their niche roles. I think there will be some adjustment but a specialised drone-fighter bay could be useful if ccp ever expand he range of cap ships to new types and classes

Twelve Jackals
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.10.12 13:27:00 - [230]
 

Originally by: Oljud Zork

During Fanfest did CCP present a brochure with some statistics, and according to that does it today exist on TQ roughly 400 SC. We all know that it exist about 233 Titans (see CAOD)


I know quite sure that the titan figure in the CAOD thread is a 2-3 fold underestimation, but heck, only 400 motherships? Are you sure CCP actually aid that because it seems like its closer to a thousand.

Oljud Zork
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.12 14:10:00 - [231]
 

Edited by: Oljud Zork on 12/10/2009 15:30:12
Edited by: Oljud Zork on 12/10/2009 15:26:21
Originally by: Twelve Jackals
Originally by: Oljud Zork

During Fanfest did CCP present a brochure with some statistics, and according to that does it today exist on TQ roughly 400 SC. We all know that it exist about 233 Titans (see CAOD)


I know quite sure that the titan figure in the CAOD thread is a 2-3 fold underestimation, but heck, only 400 motherships? Are you sure CCP actually aid that because it seems like its closer to a thousand.


The information are from Quarterly Economic Newsletter EvE Online 2nd quarter 2009. Take a look on page 9 Figure:7.

Then do the maths, 3246 carriers = 33.9% of all capital ships 1% = 95.75 ships. The Motherships (Super Carriers) are 4.2% of all capital ships, = 383.0 units.

Flame me if I am wrong, but to me it looks like it is about 400 Super Carriers on TQ, give and take a few...

Regards

Zork

Battle Tested
Shiva
Posted - 2009.10.12 14:56:00 - [232]
 

Edited by: Battle Tested on 12/10/2009 14:59:51
Edited by: Battle Tested on 12/10/2009 14:58:53
I think as far as docking the SC in an NPC station the answer should be no, however I would have to say outposts should have the ability to add a upgrade that makes SC's dockable.

As far as the dps of fighterbombers..I personally think they are right on line with their role and class.

Drone bays is the best idea, Carriers should get 1500m3 drone bay + a fighter bay of 100k m3(2 flights of 10)......SC's should get a 3k m3 drone bay, 200k m3 fighter bay, and 200k m3 fighter bomber bay.

Twelve Jackals
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.10.12 15:58:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Oljud Zork


The information are from Quarterly Economic Newsletter EvE Online 2nd quarter 2009. Take a look on page 9 Figure:7.



I have a really hard time believing those numbers, that would mean there are almost as much motherships as titans.

Oljud Zork
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.10.12 18:55:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Twelve Jackals
Originally by: Oljud Zork


The information are from Quarterly Economic Newsletter EvE Online 2nd quarter 2009. Take a look on page 9 Figure:7.



I have a really hard time believing those numbers, that would mean there are almost as much motherships as titans.


Originally by: Twelve Jackals
I know quite sure that the titan figure in the CAOD thread is a 2-3 fold underestimation, but heck, only 400 motherships? Are you sure CCP actually aid that because it seems like its closer to a thousand.




I believe that my link to the 2nd Quarter Economic Newsletter, presented by CCP are fairly accurate on the numbers of capitals in game. If you can show something objective that supports your opinion that the numbers of existing motherships (Super Carriers) are close to one thousand, feel free to post it. Until I am proven wrong will I continue to believe that the existing number of SC are 383, stashed away in space and waiting for Dominion to kick in!

Sure! I totally agree with you that the CAOD thread does not contain all the Titans in game, but I am not going to argue about how incomplete that list actually are...

Regards

Zork

Twelve Jackals
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.10.12 19:05:00 - [235]
 

Just saying, its a gut feeling, I have no accurate count.

The notion that there are as much titans as motherships sounds ridiculous to me. In Tri Mk1, a year and a half ago, we had 30+ motherships and none titans.

Reto
The Last Resort
Posted - 2009.10.12 23:23:00 - [236]
 

ArrowModeling:

the aeon's, archon's, nyx' and thanatos' landing bays are looking strange.
you cannot look "into" the ship as there is a texture which seals it off. its painted niceley but it would have a better effect if you could actualy see the inner bay and add some sort of force field at the entrance like the minmatar outpost or the leviathan titan has.

please reconsider the little detail here. it would make those carriers look more sophisticated.

EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.13 08:25:00 - [237]
 

Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 13/10/2009 08:26:53
Models need to be larger. Phoenix is currently larger than most the MS. That's complete bull**** since it can dock.

Also we either need the ability to dock or carry both fighters and bombers, full 20 drone flights of each. Asking something that can't dock to redo your fit every engagement to be flexible is downright unrealistic. Unless each of us gets a personal CHA stocked with fighters there isnt jack we can do beyond hauling 5+ loads of fighters back and forth every time we want to fight.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.13 09:35:00 - [238]
 

so make the phoenix bigger, still yet to see pirate faction dread and carrier blueprints yet. They could have 20 % boost over normal.

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2009.10.13 10:33:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Twelve Jackals
Just saying, its a gut feeling, I have no accurate count.

The notion that there are as much titans as motherships sounds ridiculous to me. In Tri Mk1, a year and a half ago, we had 30+ motherships and none titans.
That's a holdover from when motherships were "I win" ships. Motherships have been virtually useless since the introduction of HICs and changes to dictor bubbles. As such, production declines and the ones that are destroyed are not replaced. You only need to look at the sales forum to see the price crash for motherships dropping to only slightly above mineral cost. Before the nerf they would easily fetch 2 or even 3 times build cost.

In meantime, titan proliferation continued as not only are they useful solo for bonuses and jumpbriding, but are very effective when deployed in numbers. Titan production continued to rise and eventually overtook MS production.

Adam Ridgway
Minmatar
Posted - 2009.10.13 11:53:00 - [240]
 

I hope base insurance is removed, otherwise proliferation could get out of hand as they will be made of win, and honestlly, 15 bill. is not that much anymore. And docking should be only be possible with outpost/infrastructrue hub upgrades, for the same reason; also it should be costlly and with limited parking slots per system/outpost/whatever.


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