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Gavin Darklighter
Ministry of War
Posted - 2009.09.26 03:40:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Soleil Fournier
Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 25/09/2009 20:38:32

Gavin, fighter bombers will not be able to be assigned once it hits live.

Also, Aeons with 6 perma reps? Get real. An Aeon would have to use CCC rigs, 4 cap recharger IIs, and 5 cap power relays to be cap stable. That leaves them with crap for resistances and crap EHP compared to the buffer tank they're capable of. It also means they won't be using any smartbombs, projected ECCM, DCUs, cloaks, etc. Highly doubtful. Even with the avatar bonus they'll still have to sacrifice a lot of HP or resistances.


It is possible with only two two navy CPRs in the lows, T2 CCCs, and a med-rack full of T2 CRs. Don't forget about the CR8, the CC8, and mindflood. Of all the alternate highs-lot uses mentioned only smartbombs and DCUs are of any real use in a cap fleet engagement. Other ships can fit the bombs and I think most people will value the extra spider tank over the ability to deploy a couple more fighter-bombers. The spider-mom fleet will lose a sizable chunk of eHP compared to the trimarked mom fleet, but they will gain the ability to tank whole dread fleets.

aldarrin
Posted - 2009.09.26 12:30:00 - [152]
 

As I posted on the Titan feedback thread, I think the jump portal ability should migrate from the Titan hulls to the Supercarriers (Motherships). Carriers are capital class logistics boats that can dish out BS level dps. I think a boost to to its core logistics role would make sense. And then the Titans won't be seen as completely overpowered (if at all).

Ridjeck Thome
DEATHFUNK
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.27 13:26:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: aldarrin
As I posted on the Titan feedback thread, I think the jump portal ability should migrate from the Titan hulls to the Supercarriers (Motherships). Carriers are capital class logistics boats that can dish out BS level dps. I think a boost to to its core logistics role would make sense. And then the Titans won't be seen as completely overpowered (if at all).


I have had the same thought as well and would support this as a more fitting assignment of the jump portal role.

Ryan Coolness
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.09.27 14:49:00 - [154]
 

Edited by: Ryan Coolness on 27/09/2009 14:58:45
Right now on SiSi they are definately nicer then on TQ with the bombers and hp boost, at least usable somewhat, but some more functionality wont go amiss.

some thoughts:

- boost to ECM burst, make it last 20-30sec like proper ECM instead of allowing the target to relock immediately which makes it kina pointless atm

- make sure you increase the fighter bay so it can accomodate the new bombers, i think a bay size of 350k m would be fine, allows to e.g. bring a wave of bombers, another wave of fighters and some reserve for both (or two full waves of bombers and some reserve)

- jump range: if they are big (super) carriers they should at least be able to jump a bit farther then now, 10ly range with JDC 5 would be a small boost but would surely go a long way in terms of usefulness (bringing them on par with JDC 4 dread range)


Also maybe Dust514 brings some options to give Supercarriers some extra utility.

some ideas:

- a third class of fighter specialized in ground attacks only usable by supercarriers, could either do more damage then other orbital bombardment measures (boring) or have an advantage in precision and produce less collateral damage to civilian/industrial installations (more interesting imho)

- if there gonna be dropships to transport equipment to the planets that launch from ship maintenance bays make the biggest dropship (that only can transport the heaviest equipment down to the surface) require more then 1m m space so that only supercarriers and titans can carry them

Princess Jodi
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.27 18:26:00 - [155]
 

Allowing SuperCarriers (stupid name) to dock would instantly double all the SC's in the game. All the alts holding Moms would either be sold or put into a SC of their own. Might even tripple the number of SC's, as there are many pilots would would own one but don't have second account alts ready.

It might be fun... Noob SC Pilots in expensive toys.

Oh, and if Fighter-bombers die easily/do no damage cuz of Smartboms on their intended targets, they kinda lack usefullness don't ya think?

Ryan Coolness
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.09.27 21:03:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Princess Jodi

Oh, and if Fighter-bombers die easily/do no damage cuz of Smartboms on their intended targets, they kinda lack usefullness don't ya think?


yes, it makes the whole concept pointless and needs to be addressed, I actually expect that in the next sisi build to be fixed as not fixing it would be kinda silly, dont you think?

LoveKebab
Caldari
LOST IDEA
C0VEN
Posted - 2009.09.27 23:18:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: LoveKebab on 27/09/2009 23:30:08
Edited by: LoveKebab on 27/09/2009 23:28:35
Originally by: Princess Jodi

Oh, and if Fighter-bombers die easily/do no damage cuz of Smartboms on their intended targets, they kinda lack usefullness don't ya think?


smartbombs aint killing torps from fighters lol, they are just about the same as normal torps so HP is pretty much the same and u CANT kill torpedo with smartbombs for like a year now

fighters are orbiting just out of the 7500m smartbomb range and torpedo is hitting within 2 sec of when it's fired so u dont have much time to kill those 20 torps...
if u cant keep ur drones alive u should not fly a drone ship...

p.s. - did u ever fly a SC Princess Jodi? it doesnt look like it tbh

SolarKnight
Gallente
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Posted - 2009.09.28 00:32:00 - [158]
 

You give these ships the ability to dock, youll see them in the numbers dreads are in now, even faster then you would if you dont allow them to dock, simple as that.

Supercaps should be the pride of the fleet, the elite forces, flown by the FCs or higher ranking members of the faction they represent.


aldarrin
Posted - 2009.09.28 08:32:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Ridjeck Thome
Originally by: aldarrin
As I posted on the Titan feedback thread, I think the jump portal ability should migrate from the Titan hulls to the Supercarriers (Motherships). Carriers are capital class logistics boats that can dish out BS level dps. I think a boost to to its core logistics role would make sense. And then the Titans won't be seen as completely overpowered (if at all).


I have had the same thought as well and would support this as a more fitting assignment of the jump portal role.


Any dissenting opinions on moving jump portals from Titans -> SCs?

LoveKebab
Caldari
LOST IDEA
C0VEN
Posted - 2009.09.28 12:07:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: aldarrin
Originally by: Ridjeck Thome
Originally by: aldarrin
As I posted on the Titan feedback thread, I think the jump portal ability should migrate from the Titan hulls to the Supercarriers (Motherships). Carriers are capital class logistics boats that can dish out BS level dps. I think a boost to to its core logistics role would make sense. And then the Titans won't be seen as completely overpowered (if at all).


I have had the same thought as well and would support this as a more fitting assignment of the jump portal role.


Any dissenting opinions on moving jump portals from Titans -> SCs?

yes, one ... fuel bay

Ryan Coolness
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.09.28 12:17:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: LoveKebab

fighters are orbiting just out of the 7500m smartbomb range and torpedo is hitting within 2 sec of when it's fired so u dont have much time to kill those 20 torps...



7.5km is just faction smartbomb range, there are bombs with higher ranges, a lot of them, orbiting outside 10.5km, that would make sense

granted we wont see those smartbombs on titans that much any more since they give up a lot of dps by not fitting turrets but on SCs they will still be common as they simply lack options to put in their highs

speaking of that, how about changing the drone control units stats so it has the same effect of an additional carrier level in regards to drone control? it would still give +1 fighter/drone on carriers but supercarriers would get +3 bombers/fighters/drones per DCU which would make them a lot less pointless to fit as lets face it nobody fits DCUs on motherships if it just gives 5% extra dps, 15% and we are talking

Ethan Hunte
Ninjas With Frikkin StarShips
Posted - 2009.09.28 17:25:00 - [162]
 

things on sisi are constantly being changed, so because you see them orbiting at 7500 now doesnt mean thats how it was when the first changes rolled out.

LoveKebab
Caldari
LOST IDEA
C0VEN
Posted - 2009.09.29 20:39:00 - [163]
 

Edited by: LoveKebab on 29/09/2009 20:45:08
Originally by: Ryan Coolness
Originally by: LoveKebab

fighters are orbiting just out of the 7500m smartbomb range and torpedo is hitting within 2 sec of when it's fired so u dont have much time to kill those 20 torps...



7.5km is just faction smartbomb range, there are bombs with higher ranges, a lot of them, orbiting outside 10.5km, that would make sense

granted we wont see those smartbombs on titans that much any more since they give up a lot of dps by not fitting turrets but on SCs they will still be common as they simply lack options to put in their highs


fighter bombers are not supose to be SCs bbq drones so u wont have to use any others...
if u want to do dmg and not lose ur drones to smartbombs use SENTRY DRONES from 40km!

besides nothing prevent u from recalling ur bombers back and sending to attack once more over and over again :)

as for 7500m - how many carriers are using officer smartbombs ? close to NONE

bombers have just enough hp to survive couple blasts with no problem, and shield recharge is pretty decent too, if u are afraid of losing a fighter it's ur problem, i for one like the idea of how the bombers work atm, they shouldnt be flying outside of webrange for sure and i think the current orbit is perfect

if u would want them to orbit at 10.5+km ccp would have to slow them down a lot cuz that's like outside of webrange and it just cant be - but then again no drone/fighter has ever orbit outside of webrange so i rly doubt it gonna happen here :>

Soleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2009.09.30 02:09:00 - [164]
 

Carrier pilots don't need/deserve a free pass against fighter bombers.

Citadels were changed a long time ago because smart bombs would kill them. CCP agreed this was no good and gave them a beefy hit point increase to stop this from happening. The same needs to be done for the compact version.

The additional orbit range is necessary, at LEAST to 10.5km (the torps can actually fly much farther than this according to their stats). The fighter bombers would be 100% useless if carriers could simply turn on a smart bomb and nullify a supercarrier. Groups of carriers are already going to pose problems to the bombers because they'll simply group up and overlap smartbombs to make sure the bombers die.

I'd also like to hear CCP's thoughts on the current repping abilities of supercarriers. they need to be improved with a 50-100% bonus per level to repping. The massive hp increase isn't enough to make them survive. Spider tanking hasn't changed, so if the spider tank was what would keep a mom survive, we would see this on TQ, which we don't.

Ryan Coolness
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.09.30 09:48:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: Ryan Coolness on 30/09/2009 09:57:55
Originally by: LoveKebab

fighter bombers are not supose to be SCs bbq drones so u wont have to use any others...
if u want to do dmg and not lose ur drones to smartbombs use SENTRY DRONES from 40km!



Well,I can already do that now on tq cant I? why need the dps boost to moms/sc at all then? if the SC is not able to apply its new boosted dps realistically and has to resort to the tools it already got against its intended primary targets which are other caps and supercaps then something needs to be rebalanced.

I agree the SC should have to use other drones on different targets: fighters on BS/BC, heavies/meds/lights on smaller, sentries on pos but against capital ships the weapon of choice should be fighter-bombers, simple as that.

A titan does not lose any of its dps to smartbombs (not even the leviathan thanks to the hp buff on citadels), why should the SC?

Originally by: Soleil Fournier
Carrier pilots don't need/deserve a free pass against fighter bombers.

Citadels were changed a long time ago because smart bombs would kill them. CCP agreed this was no good and gave them a beefy hit point increase to stop this from happening. The same needs to be done for the compact version.

I'd also like to hear CCP's thoughts on the current repping abilities of supercarriers. they need to be improved with a 50-100% bonus per level to repping. The massive hp increase isn't enough to make them survive. Spider tanking hasn't changed, so if the spider tank was what would keep a mom survive, we would see this on TQ, which we don't.


The hp boost might just be enough imho, an increase in tank is not needed (although it wouldnt hurt to re-allow triage for fast repping after the battle), it is not local tank or spider tank that should keep the Supercaps alive (but definately delay them going down), it is the hp buffer allowing them to last long enough for their own fleet to decimate the enemy dps so they dont pose a threat any more. If that buffer is quite enough remains to be seen.

LoveKebab
Caldari
LOST IDEA
C0VEN
Posted - 2009.09.30 10:39:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Ryan Coolness

A titan does not lose any of its dps to smartbombs (not even the leviathan thanks to the hp buff on citadels), why should the SC?



smartbombs are not killing the torps but fighter bombers, the idea of making them orbit outside of webrange is ******ed - no drone ever did that so why should bombers be any different ? u can go with "story about smartbombs" and apply it to every drones so ccp will make fighters orbit at 15km, heavy drones at 12 etc, etc.
bombers still r orbitting farthest or all MOVING drones

titans are not a DRONE SHIPs, every drone ship is supposed to watch for its drones or lose dps it's simple as that - it's either learn to manage ur fighters/bombers or use dread

stop complaining, SCs already got a gr8 boost in HP and DPS

Ardion
Posted - 2009.09.30 11:30:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Soleil Fournier
Yeah lets start with the name.

Mothership -> Fleet Carrier (or Flagship)
Carrier -> Escort Carrier

Will post on the numbers and experiences once its on sisi!


Agree

Miner Bob
Gods Of Wrath
Posted - 2009.09.30 13:39:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Miner Bob on 30/09/2009 14:29:25
1st I will say that no supercap should ever dock - lets get that clear

The bombers work great - except for the lag/effect when the bombs hit

Instead of a raw hp boost I think a huge unstacked resistance boost would work much better - this would mean that remote reppers have a much larger effect as well as local reps

They also need a better jump range - at least as far as a dread with cal 4

All I can think of atm

Edit - Mayb the death ray shouldnt work on other supercaps - that would stop em being primaried by 10 titans
Moms and titans shouldnt be able to self destruct - with the new changes they can usually survive 15 mins esp if being repped by a triage carrier

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.10.01 01:00:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Mara Intala
Edited by: Mara Intala on 23/09/2009 07:51:15
I like the idea of letting Super Caps anchor at a pos. More so than letting them dock, that way there is still a bit of danger involved with having one but you are not stuck in it like some trapped rat.

Maybe something like a pos module?

Super capital Anchoring Array
0 CPU
1,500,000 Power Grid
1 XXL Docking Clip (Titan)
2 XL Docking Clips (Super Carrier)
1,000,000,000.00 isk base price
Anchoring IV to place it.

Acts like a Maintenance Array and links to the Corp hanger array so you can fuel and fit wile its anchored.

Your ship anchors inside the shield and can only be placed at a large pos.
When you anchor your super cap you are able to eject and the ship will not move. you can also Lock the ship by entering a password. In order to board a locked ship you would need to enter the password.

If the pos in destroyed with a super cap anchored at it. the anchoring array will go to a backup generator that will last 36 hours in which time the ships remain anchored, but after that time runs out the array goes offline and the anchored ships are unanchored and unlocked, free to be taken by anyone.

Just an idea, but there really should be some way to let super caps be ejected from with out any joe blow being able to come along in a BS and bump it out of the shields.

Edit* If the Anchoring Array is destroyed, it will self destruct the anchored ships. making the attacking forces require to protect the ships if they wish to take them.

I like this idea a lot. I'd tweak the details a bit: keep the 'anchoring' and 'locking' features (which are key to the concept), however remove the 'self-destruct' and 'backup generator' features. If the POS is destroyed, the capitals remain attached to the Anchoring Array until it, too, is destroyed, at which point the anchored ships become unanchored and unlocked. This is somewhat analogous to ship maintenance arrays, with the ships contained inside 'dropping out' upon destruction.

In fact, make all of the existing ship maintenance arrays use these same mechanics (for subcapitals, as well). Ships built by assembly arrays anchor themselves at the appropriate maintenance array and take on a default password (programmed into the assembly array) until changed.

Amy Wang
Posted - 2009.10.01 14:03:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Amy Wang on 01/10/2009 14:08:33
There is already something like that in game: the capital ship maintenance array

Only difference and prime reason that is not used as much is that the highest access restriction you can have for it is pos config roles which basically means anyone with that role and ofc all directors have access to the supercap.

Instead of adding a new module add another protection level with a password to that array and it will do just fine. Alternatives are ofc the holding alt (very common) as well as having only absolutely trusted people with pos and director roles (well, with 60+b asset at stake this might be stretching it for some tho) but that certainly is a loophole the other suggestion would also be subject to unless you adopt the "lockdown" function the original poster suggested which basically exactly counters this.

Another problem is that people with the pos config role can just offline the tower and pop the array, then steal the ship, but it is far easier to notice that going on the the ship just going missing suddenly.

Battle Tested
Shiva
Posted - 2009.10.03 01:20:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: aldarrin
As I posted on the Titan feedback thread, I think the jump portal ability should migrate from the Titan hulls to the Supercarriers (Motherships). Carriers are capital class logistics boats that can dish out BS level dps. I think a boost to to its core logistics role would make sense. And then the Titans won't be seen as completely overpowered (if at all).


This makes a lot of sense with the new role changes to both the Supercarrier and Titan....The titan is now a "cap killer" and Supercarrier is the logistics ship. I have to agree the Jump Portal Generator should be moved to Supercarriers instead of Titans or leave them on the Titans and make them available on Supercarriers.

Mendos TradeAlt
Posted - 2009.10.06 12:35:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Battle Tested
Originally by: aldarrin
As I posted on the Titan feedback thread, I think the jump portal ability should migrate from the Titan hulls to the Supercarriers (Motherships). Carriers are capital class logistics boats that can dish out BS level dps. I think a boost to to its core logistics role would make sense. And then the Titans won't be seen as completely overpowered (if at all).


This makes a lot of sense with the new role changes to both the Supercarrier and Titan....The titan is now a "cap killer" and Supercarrier is the logistics ship. I have to agree the Jump Portal Generator should be moved to Supercarriers instead of Titans or leave them on the Titans and make them available on Supercarriers.


Supercarriers aren't going to be logistics ships at all, they're dread killers. They're going to have no logistics bonus, so to call them logistics ships means you're hanging onto the past.

Titans are also going to be cap killers, so I agree with removing the Jump Portal from them. I've seen CCP make mention to new Motherships in the future, which would fulfill a different role. I rather suspect that when this happens the Jump Portal will be moved to these, along with a redesigned clone vat bay and a godly sized ship maintenance bay, and probably bugger all offensive weaponry.

Isaac Starstriker
Amarr
Frontier Venture
Posted - 2009.10.06 22:56:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Amy Wang
Edited by: Amy Wang on 01/10/2009 14:08:33
There is already something like that in game: the capital ship maintenance array

Only difference and prime reason that is not used as much is that the highest access restriction you can have for it is pos config roles which basically means anyone with that role and ofc all directors have access to the supercap.

Instead of adding a new module add another protection level with a password to that array and it will do just fine. Alternatives are ofc the holding alt (very common) as well as having only absolutely trusted people with pos and director roles (well, with 60+b asset at stake this might be stretching it for some tho) but that certainly is a loophole the other suggestion would also be subject to unless you adopt the "lockdown" function the original poster suggested which basically exactly counters this.

Another problem is that people with the pos config role can just offline the tower and pop the array, then steal the ship, but it is far easier to notice that going on the the ship just going missing suddenly.


Can't shield passwords block even people with the roles to access the POS?

--Isaac

Soleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2009.10.07 23:53:00 - [174]
 

Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 07/10/2009 23:54:13
No, anyone with the role can remove the password without having to enter it.

HeliosGal
Caldari
Posted - 2009.10.08 10:31:00 - [175]
 

i think supercarriers are in fact dread killers.

The next step is tech 2 capital ships filling niche roles.

ECM bonus to caldari, i think an overheat bonus to amarr is needed and better shield tanking 2-5% for minmatar

McEivalley
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2009.10.08 14:47:00 - [176]
 

And I say DON'T let super-carriers dock. Anyone in his right mind that has a carrier now will get rid of it and buy a super-carrier if you let them dock. In essence, you will eliminate carriers from the game, making them into level 5/complex runners for the super-rich and the pride and joy flagship of the ultra-poor (which will go quickly back to empire as it dies, or keep spinning it forever in the low sec station of their choice).

Super-carriers atm are just uber carriers (fighter bombers or not) and any thought abotu letting them dock will just make them that much more uber. At the very least do that - keep them in space - or just say "screw it" and drop carriers off the game completely.

Twelve Jackals
Rionnag Alba
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.10.08 16:50:00 - [177]
 

Edited by: Twelve Jackals on 08/10/2009 16:54:39


Sel, I think I've said it on sisi already but titans shouldn't be able to fire their dd on other supercaps.

In addition to that, whats the status on the rep bonuses for supercaps? Repping up all that HP is a godawful job as it is now and as pointed out by someone else earlier on, spider tanks didn't change so they will still melt eventually.

Fighter bombers are nice and all but they really need immunity from smartbombs by either range or HP, personally giving them 50 - 100k EHP sounds good to me, would actually make them a sizeable target.


- Sok.

LoveKebab
Caldari
LOST IDEA
C0VEN
Posted - 2009.10.08 23:20:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Twelve Jackals

Fighter bombers are nice and all but they really need immunity from smartbombs by either range or HP, personally giving them 50 - 100k EHP sounds good to me, would actually make them a sizeable target.



they work just fine as they are now, they could get some more ehp but that's not rly nesessary as they orbit outside of most of the smartbombs anyway, had them orbiting me at 10-12km today, that's more than avrage smartbombs @ ms (officer that is) :)

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2009.10.09 11:15:00 - [179]
 

The explosion from the fighter bomber's missiles are waaaaaaaaay too large. You can't make out anything while they are going on. Cool

Ryan Coolness
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.10.09 12:19:00 - [180]
 

Having Supercarriers be able to dock is a really bad idea be it over a space improvment like suggested during the fanfest presentaiton or in general.

Everybody and their dog will suddenly get one either for their carrier piloting main or for their recently aquired new alt they bought from a present suprcap owner that doesnt need his alt any more now.

The ships will be even more inflationary then they are already, no thanks. I agree that SCs could use another buff in utility or combat terms to bring them more in line with titans cost/benefit wise but giving them the option to dock is not the right way to boost them imho.

But since CCP will likely lose subscriptions (not to emoragequitting, no, but to the closing of now superfluous supercapital accounts) if they do this I'd say they are too smart and wont do it ;)


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