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wallenbergaren
Posted - 2009.09.18 08:06:00 - [61]
 

I think supercaps should be given a 10-20% bonus to smartbomb range per level

Starxplorer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.18 08:34:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Starxplorer on 18/09/2009 08:34:46
Originally by: Mara Intala
Originally by: Sea Gate
except for the need of Fighters to V for fighter bombers. Just seems... to much.

Also, make the models for supercarriers bigger Very Happy


Seems fine to me. Even though I have major doubts about only letting moms use bombers (Bad idea, major bad idea Evil or Very Mad) you wouldnt want every carrier pilot to have them w/o any extra work. Besides, flying a SC w/o fighters V anyways just seems.... wrong.

But this is just by bit of feed back. I dont fly moms and until they can dock and cost under 5 bil each. I WILL never fly one on the front line. Not when you could field and loose over 8 dreads at the current cost of a SC.

So far only Titans should have the name Super Cap. SC should be remade into normal caps, dock able and cheaper (3-5 bil)

This is what I have though ever since I heard about the Bombers.

Carriers as they are should be renamed Logistics Carrier. They can keep the Triage and be able to use normal fighters.

Moms should be named Fleet Assault Carriers; they are DPS based, cheaper and can use Bombers. (Much cheaper Not 12 more like 3-5)

Currently I can see NO reason why something like this should have been done. Titans can cause massive destruction across a battlefield; they are feared and renowned for what they can do and in turn. The pilot cant dock them.

But moms do what exactly? What destruction can they cause to make them cost so much (15 bil + just for looks?) they are not super logistics ships capable of repping massive amounts of hp, nor are they insane dps. In fact, Im sure 2 carriers can do more dps and more logistics than 1 mom for 1/10th the price.

Now, before you just shoot this idea down, which Im sure you will cause it seems your minds are made up on this. Just think, at the moment, most 0.0 alliances that I know of, only have a few moms, why is this? Because they are les useful that carriers, but for the most part they are too much trouble for most carrier pilots to use. I cant think of any reason that any carrier pilot would get a mom other than to look cool (because they do!)

But if they could dock, and had a reasonable price that could be replaced if lost (15b is enough to buy a character, why spend it on a ship that WILL get destroyed.) not only would the manufacturers of said ships get more business, but the future manufacturers of the bombers will have a reason to build them. (Moms will not be used on the front line, and so they will not have there bombers out much and in turn they will not get destroyed).

Just my 2 isk worth of feed back about an awesome ship and an awesome idea. I would like to see these ships more in 0.0, not less.Very Happy


I agree with all your point, this nearf to the motherships will end almost with this kind of ships.
Im paying one account only to be sit on space, I cant dock, and I was expecting more options to use in this ship and in the end. But in the end Options had been remove, with the price of one ship of this kind, we can buy several carriers and dreads and have fun and dock.

I was expecting one thing in this ship like the Jump Bridge, that will turn this ship with more use that will be, you will see this ship more time on the fields, because like now, you dont see too mutch. And if you want to go ahead with all this -options Crying or Very sad, let this ship dock.

And why the rename, this seens like today my name is Luis tomorow will be David, stay the name like he is.



The Kan
Gallente
The Circle
SOLAR WING
Posted - 2009.09.18 09:16:00 - [63]
 

Here's my prespective, from flying a nyx for more than 2 years, and been part of 3 major wars with it, and now sisi extensive testing:

- HP boost: was needed. Alto, 4x on the primary tank type sounds "awesome", it inst. Problem with it, is that a mom is alot more expensive than a dread or carrier, thus, when a fight rages on, the FC will try to win the fight, that fight, can be own by looting the field or by isk ratio. To kill 1 mom is to kill 15 carriers, so, supercaps are always primary. Specially now for the titans.
This buff only means, they will take longer to kill, thus, every1 will be "on time" to get on the killmail.
Me, as a veteran nyx pilot, i wont field my ship just because i have 4x the armor.

- Survivability: Currently, it's near zero, and on sisi aswell. The capital armor rep'er (and capital shield booster) are too weak to repair the massive amounts of shield/armor this ships currently have, and even worse with current sisi values. This ships really need a +100% per level bonus or +50% per level as a absolute minimum.
40mnts to self rep is nuts.

- Lack of triage. Triage is part of the "emergence" on this ships. You taking away alot of options (read: emergence) from players here. Triage can transform this ships in logistics monsters, motivating owners to field them and opening more emergence to the FC's.

- ECM thingi: useless. i tried to jamm HICs several times in the past on multiple occasions and i never broke theyr lock on me or others. it's frustrating. i had to use ecm drones with neut's to be able to escape or help others escape.

- FBombers: They look good, they are promising, but they really need to orbit @ 10km or more from target and the torps they use rly need a massive hp boost so they dont die horribly to smarty's.

- Docking: If you insist on that lame name, then you have to let this "supercarriers" dock.

All in all, i think the risk vs reward of fielding this ships in a 50+ hostile dread scenario as it is today, the risk is too high.
supercaps will stay as they are. log'ed off.

My sugestions:
> armor/shield repper bonus (+100% per level) (or, release a supercapital armor repair module for supercaps only)
> FB and the missiles get +400% eHP
> put the triage back
> put the option of gang modules back

ropnes
Posted - 2009.09.18 09:28:00 - [64]
 

Yeah I don't see the point in removing Triage from supercarriers
With a tanking boost they would actually be able to perform the Triage role in a cap battle, unlike regular Carriers which melt way too quickly.

And again, there's no point in removing choice from the players.
Such massive ships should have a lot of versitility IMO. I think the Triage module is needed now more than ever

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.09.18 09:40:00 - [65]
 

Alright

If CCP are serious about creating a next arms race as part of the way of dealing with the rather sick problem of the X64 easy isk challenge, Motherships will become either a big part of this, or take no part in this at all.

The way they are right now, I just can't justify the investments in MS wings. It would be much more worthwhile to put it in Titans, since it is still the same easy afk production cycle, and ISK - pending other changes affecting the X64 hickup) is still easy.


  • Motherships remain very feeble, especially with Titans on the field, but also in regards to any sort of capacitor warfare.

  • Triage is not a solution, since being immobilised is equal to suicide.

  • Another hitpoints increase might also not be the solution, since hitpoints simply do not scale in light of player numbers scaling, but perhaps an angle of Heat (on an XL scale) could be an option, or creating a Remote Repair type of scenario where Motherships can buddy up with other Motherships and the whole picture of repair is bigger then the sum of its parts.
    It would encourage fielding more, in smart manners, while still giving room for solo soap operas.

  • With Titans but now also Dreads facing a bit of a challenge (more painful now for Titans) in fuel logistics, a big boost could be a logistical bonus for Motherships.
    Imagine a special purpose bay, which carries ice fuel types, but which has a skill based extended range bonus (say for starters 15K and upwards from there) enabling resupply on the field, but also opening up for countless rescue and **** happens scenarios.
    Not to mention provide an angle for effort and prolonging combat at the same time.

  • Bombers are nice, but it has to be possible for players to tackle and deal with them (support role, as if Bombers are support type ships as well) so that support ships get a much more critical role in dealing with the new scenario of bomber waves (as opposed to simple smartbomb shields or jamming bombers).


Bonny Lee
Caldari
Starkstrom
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.09.18 10:14:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: The Kan
Here's my prespective, from flying a nyx for more than 2 years, and been part of 3 major wars with it, and now sisi extensive testing:

- HP boost: was needed. Alto, 4x on the primary tank type sounds "awesome", it inst. Problem with it, is that a mom is alot more expensive than a dread or carrier, thus, when a fight rages on, the FC will try to win the fight, that fight, can be own by looting the field or by isk ratio. To kill 1 mom is to kill 15 carriers, so, supercaps are always primary. Specially now for the titans.



To kill one BS is like killing a ****ing load of frigates or cruiser... this argument doesnt count because it isnt applied anywhere else in EvE.

Viper ShizzIe
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.09.18 10:29:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: The Kan
Here's my prespective, from flying a nyx for more than 2 years, and been part of 3 major wars with it, and now sisi extensive testing:

- HP boost: was needed. Alto, 4x on the primary tank type sounds "awesome", it inst. Problem with it, is that a mom is alot more expensive than a dread or carrier, thus, when a fight rages on, the FC will try to win the fight, that fight, can be own by looting the field or by isk ratio. To kill 1 mom is to kill 15 carriers, so, supercaps are always primary. Specially now for the titans.
This buff only means, they will take longer to kill, thus, every1 will be "on time" to get on the killmail.
Me, as a veteran nyx pilot, i wont field my ship just because i have 4x the armor.

- Survivability: Currently, it's near zero, and on sisi aswell. The capital armor rep'er (and capital shield booster) are too weak to repair the massive amounts of shield/armor this ships currently have, and even worse with current sisi values. This ships really need a +100% per level bonus or +50% per level as a absolute minimum.
40mnts to self rep is nuts.

- Lack of triage. Triage is part of the "emergence" on this ships. You taking away alot of options (read: emergence) from players here. Triage can transform this ships in logistics monsters, motivating owners to field them and opening more emergence to the FC's.

- ECM thingi: useless. i tried to jamm HICs several times in the past on multiple occasions and i never broke theyr lock on me or others. it's frustrating. i had to use ecm drones with neut's to be able to escape or help others escape.

- FBombers: They look good, they are promising, but they really need to orbit @ 10km or more from target and the torps they use rly need a massive hp boost so they dont die horribly to smarty's.

- Docking: If you insist on that lame name, then you have to let this "supercarriers" dock.

All in all, i think the risk vs reward of fielding this ships in a 50+ hostile dread scenario as it is today, the risk is too high.
supercaps will stay as they are. log'ed off.

My sugestions:
> armor/shield repper bonus (+100% per level) (or, release a supercapital armor repair module for supercaps only)
> FB and the missiles get +400% eHP
> put the triage back
> put the option of gang modules back



I don't believe you've ever flown a mothership.

Mothership survivability on sisi is amazingly higher than it is now, with their EHP and the amount of damage they can put out they're one of the most worthwhile ships in game. More EHP means you survive a lot longer, which in turn means that instead of 90 hostile dreads instapoping your nyx, you last long enough for your fleet to get remote reps on you. This, coupled with a hefty DPS (~12k on an all L5 Nyx, 9k on others) against non-moving capitals basically means that a mothership gang with a few triage carriers can easily kill a dreadfleet that's 2-3x as large as the gang opposing it. This is assuming you fit them properly. Which brings me to two.

If you ever put a triage module on a mothership you really have no place in commenting on the balancing as you have no idea how to use one properly. Being immobile for ten minutes for a mothership is guaranteed death against any competent alliance, even post patch with the massive amount of EHP they have. Sorry, the game can't really be balanced for some gtc selling idiot camping the Rancer gate in his triage mothership repping his gatecamping friends. Furthermore, the ECM burst is one of the most worthwhile modules in the game. Motherships should never be able to dock.

What motherships require post-patch is teamwork. Motherships aren't designed as solo ships. Talking about how long it takes to repair your own armor has no real value as you'll always have people with remote repair modules with you on TQ. The only thing that really needs to be looked at with them is fighter-bomber HP (along with the HP of their missiles) and possibly jumprange.


The Kan
Gallente
The Circle
SOLAR WING
Posted - 2009.09.18 10:40:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Viper ShizzIe
stuff


back paddle faster.

im not saying moms are solo ships, they should not be solo ships.
they survive longer in sisi, yes, because rarely there's a HIC around.

and i never been in rancer, geez... brain dead you are.

Virtuozzo
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.09.18 10:52:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Virtuozzo on 18/09/2009 10:55:55
Edited by: Virtuozzo on 18/09/2009 10:52:56
zomg, posted in the wrong friggin thread >.<

Anyway, I do miss one thing on Motherships. If smaller entities have to start nibbling at space and the big boys, it might just make sense to give Motherships a number of tools which could make them a sort of counterweight to the big boys and their Titans.

Jump range extended would have an impact of hit & runs, but also on supplying teams doing deeper raids. But a limited jump portal would perhaps be interesting as well. Maybe just for covert use, but still.


Starxplorer
Gallente
Posted - 2009.09.18 10:54:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Starxplorer on 18/09/2009 10:56:53

Originally by: Viper ShizzIe

I don't believe you've ever flown a mothership.

Mothership survivability on sisi is amazingly higher than it is now, with their EHP and the amount of damage they can put out they're one of the most worthwhile ships in game. More EHP means you survive a lot longer, which in turn means that instead of 90 hostile dreads instapoping your nyx, you last long enough for your fleet to get remote reps on you. This, coupled with a hefty DPS (~12k on an all L5 Nyx, 9k on others) against non-moving capitals basically means that a mothership gang with a few triage carriers can easily kill a dreadfleet that's 2-3x as large as the gang opposing it. This is assuming you fit them properly. Which brings me to two.

If you ever put a triage module on a mothership you really have no place in commenting on the balancing as you have no idea how to use one properly. Being immobile for ten minutes for a mothership is guaranteed death against any competent alliance, even post patch with the massive amount of EHP they have. Sorry, the game can't really be balanced for some gtc selling idiot camping the Rancer gate in his triage mothership repping his gatecamping friends. Furthermore, the ECM burst is one of the most worthwhile modules in the game. Motherships should never be able to dock.

What motherships require post-patch is teamwork. Motherships aren't designed as solo ships. Talking about how long it takes to repair your own armor has no real value as you'll always have people with remote repair modules with you on TQ. The only thing that really needs to be looked at with them is fighter-bomber HP (along with the HP of their missiles) and possibly jumprange.




and you ??? had you ever fly one ???
Seens not, or maybe you didnt have work to have it, someone had offer to you.
If you had work to have one, you will UNDERSTAND what is spending like 18bilions only in a ship, not speaking on the fitting, to see a ship like this loosing options.

One think is create a inter-medium ship carriers-super-carriers-motherships but decreasing the options is not good, of course all ships die in the game, no one can tell that I have one ship that is invencible. The triage in this kind of ship, its a LAST option to save this ship. Even with triage on will be down, but will take more time.

The unique point point that I agree with you is they need more jump range.


Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2009.09.18 12:33:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: VoiceInTheDesert
Originally by: Theron Gyrow
FYI, if the stats I have are correct (expl rad 1000, expl vel 29, DRF 5) AND that player's skills don't affect those in any way, the fighter-bombers will do about:
17% (~1700 DPS) of their max damage to a 400-sigrad BS going 100 m/s
36% (~3600 DPS) of their max damage to above BS when it's single-webbed
3% (~300 DPS) of their max damage to 130-sig cruiser (Rupture) going 240 m/s
7% (~700 DPS) of their max damage to above cruiser when single-webbed
12.5% (~1250 DPS) of their max damage to above cruiser when double-webbed.

Discuss.


These stats are not a problem because you're not supposed to be using anti-cap weapons on sub cap ships...


I'm more worried that the damage output might be too good, not that it is too low. ;)

Nyx Spire
Posted - 2009.09.18 12:57:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Bonny Lee
Originally by: The Kan
Here's my prespective, from flying a nyx for more than 2 years, and been part of 3 major wars with it, and now sisi extensive testing:

- HP boost: was needed. Alto, 4x on the primary tank type sounds "awesome", it inst. Problem with it, is that a mom is alot more expensive than a dread or carrier, thus, when a fight rages on, the FC will try to win the fight, that fight, can be own by looting the field or by isk ratio. To kill 1 mom is to kill 15 carriers, so, supercaps are always primary. Specially now for the titans.



To kill one BS is like killing a ****ing load of frigates or cruiser... this argument doesnt count because it isnt applied anywhere else in EvE.


This rule damn well does apply in every part of EVE. I kill enemy ships to deny the enemy of isk and time to recoupe isk. If I kill a 150mill BS a cheap battle ship, I might add, but a battle ship all the same. Its as if I just killed 5-6 of that players 30 mill frigates. Further more if each frigate take 2 minutes to catch and kill cos its zipping around under my guns and drones are barely denting it. and yet I could kill the same players bs in a 3-4 minute fight. then the BS is a far greater isk lose to said player as in the time of enjoying combat. said player ether way you look at it now needs 2-3 days strait to recoup that lose of isk. were that player is now no more a threat or annoyance to me on the battle field.

if i melt his SC in a 3 minute fight with a hand full of dreads and friends or a titan. then i have denied him a hell of a lot of time were he needs to remake that isk. its a gamble your ship only pays its self off once it has denied the enemy that much more isk than it is worth. when it has denied the enemy that much more time that it takes you to accumulate that much isk and produce said ships in said allotted time. then a ship is worth it to fly. you can pay for the upkeep on said ship. it isnt running you a huge lose. you can comfortably field it in battle.

at its current state and current suggested state this doesnt look and feel like the case.

every kid that earns his first amount of pocket money can tell you this. is chewing gum more viable than a bouncy ball or is it more viable than a hand full of lollies.
heck people you learn high risk, high gain marketing at the age of five. think about it.

what will you get more fun out of 15 dreads or one SC. that depends, is one SC most likely to kill more than 15 dreads constantly in its life. merit maybe not all at once, but if you choose your fights wisely it should be able to. currently it cant. whats suggested for SC's, well it doesn't appear it will be able too ether.

END rebuttal*

Del Girl
Resilience.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.09.18 17:45:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Starxplorer
Edited by: Starxplorer on 18/09/2009 10:56:53

Originally by: Viper ShizzIe

stuff....



and you ??? had you ever fly one ???



Considering who you are speaking to i find this comment hilarious!

I need to retink my Titan fit, recently it assploded on Sisi far too easily. It was mid changing the fit when i somehow decided to warp into Capital FFA. Id say from landing to dying it was around 3 minutes, maybe less. I had a couple of Nano mods in the lows, no local rep but i had 2 Agility Rigs in the Lows from something i was arsing about.

Need to check the damage but seeing chunks of armor drop that quickly was scary. Im damn sure there is something bugged about it, it was holding, then 1/4 armor would go, and then it went totally at around 20% armor to 0 hull.

There was a lot of Fighter Bombers around me for sure and stupid lag wouldnt let me fire the Smartie but siffice to say that wouldnt have helped me much!

Was fun though :)

Battle Tested
Shiva
Posted - 2009.09.18 18:14:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Battle Tested on 18/09/2009 18:17:38
I think another option for the survivability of "supercarriers" would be that they can fit triage w/o the negative effects of triage. they can still be remote repped, they can still move, but it will cost strontium to get the bonuses from the triage module as far as repping amount, repping duration, and remote repping. The only negative effect they would receive from triage module would be they cant jump while triaged. THIS would fix a lot of the problems with the tank/survivability. Their immunity to the triage negative effects would basically fall under their immunity to electronic warfare. The only question would be if they should maintain their offensive ability if they triage, which in my opinion I would have to say yes....It is supposed to be a powerful force on the field of battle. Dont turn it into a large target that will definately get taken down.

wallenbergaren
Posted - 2009.09.18 18:45:00 - [75]
 

Then it's not a siege module anymore

Just make Supercapital Armor Repairers that require fuel to activate

waferzankko
The Maverick Navy
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2009.09.18 23:08:00 - [76]
 

Make mother ships have a POS mount spot, so you could setup a small pos on your mother ship, drive by moon mining and you could eject from your ms and go rat, cuz your ms is docked in its own pos!

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2009.09.19 04:02:00 - [77]
 

2 super carriers + target painter = hurty battleship Sad

sad face for the battleship Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy for the Super carriers

Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.19 15:00:00 - [78]
 

Slave sets are a huge bonus for armor tanking supercaps, shieldtanks are left out here.

Im also not quite sure what a mothership is supposed to do with 3 ganglinks unless a change to links on moms would allow them to benefit capital remote reps and/or/only capital local reps.

ropnes
Posted - 2009.09.19 16:21:00 - [79]
 

I don't see where these supercarriers fit in
Anyone even thinking about fielding one will probably have access to Titans too.

Titans cost about 3x more to build, and their DPS is 2x more than a supercarrier (10k guns, 10k death ray). Titans have A LOT more EHP and can't have their DPS destroyed.

It seems they're both supposed to be anti-cap ships but the Titan is just way way better at it

crack'me'up
Posted - 2009.09.19 17:52:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Del Girl
Originally by: Starxplorer
Edited by: Starxplorer on 18/09/2009 10:56:53

Originally by: Viper ShizzIe

stuff....



and you ??? had you ever fly one ???



Considering who you are speaking to i find this comment hilarious!




Liking some balls to PL are we? Laughing

"mr. viper, mr. viper, i defended you in there. that must count for something, right? right? riight??

Mc Leech
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2009.09.19 20:10:00 - [81]
 

I strongly support the idea that supercarriers need to be able to dock. There is no logical reason not let them do that and it would make this ship much more popular without making it any more powerfull.

Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
Posted - 2009.09.19 21:27:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Terranid Meester on 19/09/2009 21:37:30
Only dumb people complain about the name change to motherships. Motherships were always supercarriers. If you don't like the name, then don't fly them.

Maybe fighter bombers should fly to a specific point and fire their torpedoes, return to the supercarrier, orbit and return to fire again. Bombs have resistances against certain damage types, couldn't FB torpedos have the same thing which would make them more effective versus smartbomb capitals?


Rexthor Hammerfists
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.09.19 21:41:00 - [83]
 

I disagree with supercarriers being able to dock, it makes em just another ship and takes the novelty away of seeing, flying and killing them.

Somealt Ofmine
Posted - 2009.09.19 22:13:00 - [84]
 

I cannot even tell you how badly you guys at CCP missed the boat on this.

1) They should have stayed Motherships.

2) They should have been given the ability to anchor in systems without player declared Sov, and when anchored act like mini-stations, at which players could dock, and to which they could jump clone. Like stations, the hull itself should be more or less invulnerable when they are anchored, but you could still shoot the services.

3) The pilot should be able to board another ship and get out when his mothership is anchored.

4) They should have been given a special (enormous, will only fit in a Mom) jump drive that allowed them to jump into WH space systems class 4 and higher.

They could have truly been "Motherships" in the sense of being a home away from home for intepid explorers of deep, uncharted space. Instead they're just going to be MOAR DPS!!!!. Isn't that just refreshing and exciting ugh. I hope that some day you consider ways of making this game continue to be fun and interesting other than by providing larger guns.

galphi
Gallente
Furnulum pani nolo
THE SPACE P0LICE
Posted - 2009.09.20 02:54:00 - [85]
 

I think the Hel bonus should be a speed bonus for it's fighters, that's more inline with what Minmatar are about. And since fighter-bombers are slower than regular fighters (that aren't all that quick anyway) this would be a useful bonus. It's like, not the dps bonus of the Gallente, but since the fighters will get to the target sooner, it's a little more dps effectively.

Ryan Coolness
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.09.20 08:00:00 - [86]
 

Edited by: Ryan Coolness on 20/09/2009 08:02:36
having tested out my Aeon on SiSi I can say the following:

- Fighter-Bombers really need a way to survive better vs smartbombs, ideally by launching their torps from well outside smarty range, e.g. 15-20km, alternatively by getting a massive hp boost (especially fast regenerating shields would help)

- Fighter-Bombers are less effective vs BS and below then regular fighters which is good and balanced ofc, provided the Supercarriers get enough fighter bay to field fighter-bpmbers and regular fighters (if they couldnt do that they would hardly deserve the "super"carrier tag imho), fighter bay size should be around 400k (e.g. 300k for 2 waves of fighter bombers plus 1 wave of fighters)

- supercarriers are underpowered vs Titans as they share basically the same role, titans have more hp and more dps that is instant dps even in most cases (bar the Leviathan) plus their dps cant be shot down
yes titans are more expensive but they also got added utility in form of massive gang bonuses and jump bridge which justifies the extra cost easily

the new supercarrier is a pure warship compared to the logistic/command/warship hybrid that the titan is, it should be superior or at least on par on the pure warship role to the titan

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2009.09.20 08:34:00 - [87]
 

A lot of people seem concerned about fighter bombers and their torpedoes not hitting the intended target. Why not just make them plasma bombers (instant hits) to circumvent that issue? I can't think of a reason they need to be firing torpedoes anyway. We already have those on frigates.

Dri Kulsane
Amarr
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.09.20 09:01:00 - [88]
 

There's no reason to allow a SC 'Super Carrier' to dock. Their hulls are just not made for that, since they still require construction at a POS.

HP buff seems pretty good in my opinion as it stands. Though the Titan ganks happening on SISI would make any SC Pilot just a little concerned about entering any system with a roaming Titan Gang ;) This ship is not intended to be a solo craft, so support in the form of carriers will always be around to assist it.

Fighter Bombers at the moment seem just a little too flimsy, easy to destroy and hard to replace. I was able to put 20 Fighter Bombers along with 9 standard Fighters, not too sure if this is final, but it would be better if SC's were at least able to hold one deployment of each at least. 20 Fighter Bombers and 20 Fighters, along with a small amount of assortment of other drones for versatility

I'm not too happy about the name type change, but if there are other modules coming down the line, like the Remote ECM, which are specialized towards these ships then it'll sit well enough.

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.20 09:08:00 - [89]
 

The problem of actually getting supercaps onto the battlefield would be solved best by reversing the sig radius boost so that dreads don't do full damage but at the same time it doesn't take hours for a sizable support fleet to take down a solo supercap that's playing hero. This all applies to titans too but I'll post it here cos I already whined in the titan thread and it addresses the problems lots of people are already expressing in this thread. (Actually this tank argument is very similar to my problem with the new superweapon, neither are currently balanceable to different battle scales).

Back when dreads were introduced they were balanced (beautifully imo) with a specific role against infrastructure. They had collosal dps but it came at a cost/risk of being 'prone' for 10 minutes and could only be used effectively against starbases, stations, and other dreadnaughts in seige. The later is self balancing since if you're killing other dreads in seige they're probably killing you. Dread vs dread is the most tactic-less form of combat in EVE, raw dps vs raw hp. No running, no EW, support fleets hardly matter until near the end. But it's highly satisfying and in isolation it's a great way for rich alliances to trade big blows, use vast amounts of resources and demonstrate their military-industrial might. But it isn't a model for combat in general. EVE has an intricately balanced combat engine for support ships and it needs to be extended to capital combat instead of being overshadowed by a crude more cost = more flat dps & hp approach. Aside from an early hp boost dreads have scaled magnificently over the past 4(!) years, from fleets of 3 in 2005, to fleets of 150 now, they've remained balanced wrt to starbase proliferation, and to nullsec economies. The only problems came when they started being able to do their seige damage to supercapitals, which was never their intended role and effectively negates the risk aspect of going into seige since you can afford to suicide dreads if it means ganking a supercap.

Supercapitals meanwhile haven't remained balanced. They've already had a hp boost and now we're looking at another. ~3 times hp boost is certainly not enough because motherships have been unviable in cap fights since dread fleets were at least half what they are now. Even if it was enough, we'll be back here in a year or two boosting hp further, because dread fleets will have grown to 200 or 250 or 300. It doesn't matter how many hp you give supercaps they'll still, at some point, be unviable on EVE's biggest battlefields because of the dps dreads can lay down. And surely the biggest battlefields are exactly where EVE's biggest ships should be? At the same time, as their hp increase they become all the more overpowered against any fleet that doesn't contain dreadnaughts.

I hear the argument that they can be supported by triage carriers, and triage carriers even seem on first glance like a great counter to dreadnaughts. A single triage carrier can offset the dps of around 3 dreads against a well resist tanked Nyx for example. So if you're facing 100 dreadnaughts and you want to deploy some supercaps you need 30 odd carriers to keep them reasonably safe. With your supercaps doing 3 or 4 times the dps of a dread, and your carriers doing 1/4 the dps of a dread at best (if they're not forced into triage and can actually get their fighters to the targets) you need to deploy 8 supers just to offset the dps you lost by putting all those pilots in carriers when they could have been in dreads. Meanwhile you greatly complicated the task of FCing your fleet, and put a whole lot more assets at risk. If you wanted to deploy less than 8 supercaps then you're out of luck.
...

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2009.09.20 09:13:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Blazde on 20/09/2009 10:12:53
This is without mentioning that dreads cream triage carriers so you most likely want a large margin over 30, or else you want a good exit plan for your supercaps when 10 minutes into the battle you find your titan primaried and only 10 carriers left supporting. You'll need the support battle to go your way very fast or face dictors while you're trying to extract supercaps. Battles are fluid and even if you face 100 dreads to begin with, and few dictors, once you put your supercaps in the soup it's likely things will get hotter.

With these changes I'm sure in the begining we'll see plenty of supercap pilots flying (and dying) as some titan pilots have already stated they will. The same happened when motherships were first introduced (and again when remote ECCM was added) but when the novelty wears off corps won't be able to justify the funds to keep deploying them in ineffective situations. Alliances field cost-effective fleets for the most part. Pilot numbers are a very important resource but still we don't see fleets of faction BS instead of t1 sniper fleets or mauraders instead of rr BS fleets, or t3 cruisers instead of HACs or BC, or motherships instead of carriers, and it's not even always for lack of funds. It's also not worth handing your oponnent juicy killmails and boosting his morale. I know supercaps were originally meant to be "huge *****es" and crazy rich people will always buy them with GTC and lose them in comedic ways but we're way over them being luxury ships, particularly motherships. I don't want them to be the exclusive domain of the rich and crazy, I desperately want to see them in the major battles over the next 5 years. And I want to think "**** they have five titans and we have some too, this is gonna be brutal" not "hah idiots warped titans infront of our dread fleet?! wtf". And I wanna see them blowing up, which they won't do if they're not there in the first place. You need a solution that's future-proof and gives supercaps an integral balanced part in a capital warfare.


Enough with the lengthy spiel, some constructive suggestions:

Most important: Reduce Titan & Supercarrier sig radius, or otherwise nerf dread turret damage (for example a harsher seige penalty to tracking) plus a harsher seige penalty to explosion velocity or otherwised balance c.torps (have to confess I'm a bit behind atm on how missile stats scale, it's possible no change is needed but remember the smartbomb problem will vanish if titans are sporting 6 turrets). General aim should be that dreads in seige mode do no more than about 2x the dps against supercaps that they do out of seige, at ~30km range, so long as the supercap pilot strafes appropriately at maximum velocity (which they can do fairly easily with web immunity and the partial/coming improved bump mechanics).

Moderately important: They still need a bit of a boost to hitpoints, so they take longer to die but ideally aren't so much harder to kill (I'll explain). What would work well is a pretty big hull hp boost (same theme as freighters), while leaving shield & armour pretty much where they are now on TQ (or maybe a small hike) and certainly not boosting local tank rates with any kind of rep bonus or special repper. This gives the supercap a big buffer against surprises/screw-ups, time to rally assistance and remote tank, but means if he's damaged significantly it's not something he can fix easily during a battle. The enemy fleet can attack a supercap, get it down to say 50% hull before being out-tanked by carriers assisting the supercap and then go to work on the carriers, satisfied that a lot of the damage done to the supercap will stick and they can return to it later if all goes well, instead of an all-or-nothing supercap takedown attempt. Since battles can be so fluid (reinforcements, lag, repositioning) a good counter to making ships take a long time to kill is not to demand that they're killed all in one go.


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