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Salam Farooj
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2009.11.17 01:16:00 - [601]
 

When are we going to get some more feedback from CCP about this? Does anyone there realize how far out you plan to fly one of these?

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.17 05:42:00 - [602]
 

Edited by: Sokratesz on 17/11/2009 09:47:05

Originally by: Salam Farooj
When are we going to get some more feedback from CCP about this? Does anyone there realize how far out you plan to fly one of these?


I *really* want to hear ccp's reply on the situation. If it isn't something very serious then I might just end up being the first csm rep without any active accounts.

Taco Torpedo
Posted - 2009.11.17 11:17:00 - [603]
 

Free Cpr fitted Wyvern for Sok if he gets the reply I have in mind Very Happy

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2009.11.17 13:48:00 - [604]
 

*sigh* Welp, guess we better get used to super ****ty super carriers. Dominion will be here in less than two weeks. So glad I never bought one now.

Let us all have a moment of silence for the super carriers (a.k.a. motherships)...

Imagine what could have been...

Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:03:00 - [605]
 

Why take away the ability to fit triage module and warfare links compared to the normal carrier? Give it back the 3 warfare links and if not the triage module, at least give it an in built -50% bonus to capital repper/remote rep/shield transfer/energy transfer duration.

Oljud Zork
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.17 17:45:00 - [606]
 

Edited by: Oljud Zork on 17/11/2009 18:10:34

Originally by: Stafen

The formula for calculating missile damage.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280

Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er;1);(Ev/Er*sig/vel)^(log(drf)/log(5.5)))

Where
sig = ship's signature
vel = ship's velocity
Er = Explosion Radius of missile
Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile
drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile


"Compact Citadel Torpedoes"

Explosion Radius 3500m (2187,5m for Hel with Minmatar Carrier V)
Explosion Velocity 60m
Damage Reduction Factor 6,5
Base Damage 3200 (4000 for Nyx with Gallente Carrier V)

I did the calculations and here are the results for "Compact Citadel Torpedoes" with the current information given by CCP Nozh.

Originally by: Oljud Zork, from iT Alliance Forum

The targets:
Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, In Siege, 1886m sig, 0m/s velocity.
Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, Full Thrust, 1886m sig, 106m/s velocity.
Nidhoggur, Standstill, 2865m sig, 0m/s velocity.
Nidhoggur, Full Thrust, 2865m sig, 112.5m/s velocity.
Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: No difference between standstill or full thrust. The same results are for all the Super Carriers and Titans as well.

Aeon and Wyvern against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 1724 dps and using 5 DCU 2299 dps.
Nyx against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 2155 dps and using 5 DCU 2874 dps.
Hel against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 2759 dps and using 5 DCU 3679 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 869 dps and using 5 DCU 1158 dps.
Nyx against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1086 dps and using 5 DCU 1448 dps.
Hel against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1456 dps and using 5 DCU 1941 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 2619 dps and using 5 DCU 3493 dps.
Nyx against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3274 dps and using 5 DCU 4366 dps.
Hel against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1288 dps and using 5 DCU 1717 dps.
Nyx against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1610 dps and using 5 DCU 2147 dps.
Hel against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 2158 dps and using 5 DCU 2877 dps.

Aeon, Wyvern and Hel against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps.
Nyx against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 4000 dps and using 5 DCU 5333dps.


The calculations clearly show that 15 Fighter Bombers against a siegeŽd dread do less damage than a regular dread in Siege, a Revelation deal ~4000 dps with 2 heat sinks...

The same against a carrier, less dps then a dread do. But against a xMom or a Titan will they do some nice dps starting at 3200 and the Nyx beats all with its 5333 dps using 5 DCU modules.

Conclusion; The new Super Carriers are intended to be used against Super Carriers and Titans.

Why shall we bring a xMom to the capital battlefield when it deal 50% less dps against a Dread then a Dread do?

Solution:
* +3 To all regular drones and Fighters per Carrier Level.
* +1 Fighter Bomber per Carrier Level.
* Reduce the Explosion Radius of missile from 3500m to 1500m.
* Increase the Explosion Velocity from 60m/sec to 75m/sec
* Increase the volume of the Fighter Bombers so a xMom canŽt bring to many to the battlefield.


This will allow the xMoms to defend themselves against smaller ships and deal dps on capitals, using lesser drones resulting in less laggy fights.

Regards

// Zork

SolarKnight
Gallente
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Posted - 2009.11.17 18:10:00 - [607]
 

Originally by: Oljud Zork
Edited by: Oljud Zork on 17/11/2009 18:08:52

Originally by: Stafen

The formula for calculating missile damage.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280

Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er;1);(Ev/Er*sig/vel)^(log(drf)/log(5.5)))

Where
sig = ship's signature
vel = ship's velocity
Er = Explosion Radius of missile
Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile
drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile


"Compact Citadel Torpedoes"

Explosion Radius 3500m (2187,5m for Hel with Minmatar Carrier V)
Explosion Velocity 60m
Damage Reduction Factor 6,5
Base Damage 3200 (4000 for Nyx with Gallente Carrier V)

I did the calculations and here are the results for "Compact Citadel Torpedoes" with the current information given by CCP Nozh.

Originally by: Oljud Zork, from iT Alliance Forum

The targets:
Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, In Siege, 1886m sig, 0m/s velocity.
Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, Full Thrust, 1886m sig, 106m/s velocity.
Nidhoggur, Standstill, 2865m sig, 0m/s velocity.
Nidhoggur, Full Thrust, 2865m sig, 112.5m/s velocity.
Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: No difference between standstill or full thrust. The same results are for all the Super Carriers and Titans as well.

Aeon and Wyvern against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 1724 dps and using 5 DCU 2299 dps.
Nyx against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 2155 dps and using 5 DCU 2874 dps.
Hel against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 2759 dps and using 5 DCU 3679 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 869 dps and using 5 DCU 1158 dps.
Nyx against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1086 dps and using 5 DCU 1448 dps.
Hel against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1456 dps and using 5 DCU 1941 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 2619 dps and using 5 DCU 3493 dps.
Nyx against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3274 dps and using 5 DCU 4366 dps.
Hel against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1288 dps and using 5 DCU 1717 dps.
Nyx against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1610 dps and using 5 DCU 2147 dps.
Hel against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 2158 dps and using 5 DCU 2877 dps.

Aeon, Wyvern and Hel against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps.
Nyx against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 4000 dps and using 5 DCU 5333dps.


The calculations clearly show that 15 Fighter Bombers against a siegeŽd dread do less damage than a regular dread in Siege, a Revelation deal ~4000 dps with 2 heat sinks...

The same against a carrier, less dps then a dread do. But against a xMom or a Titan will they do some nice dps starting at 3200 and the Nyx beats all with its 5333 dps using 5 DCU modules.

Conclusion; The new Super Carriers are intended to be used against Super Carriers and Titans.

Why shall we bring a xMom to the capital battlefield when it deal 50% less dps against a Dread then a Dread do?

Solution:
* +3 To all regular drones and Fighters per Carrier Level.
* +1 Fighter Bomber per Carrier Level.
* Reduce the Explosion Radius of missile from 3500m to 1500m.
* Increase the Explosion Velocity from 60m/sec to 75m/sec
* Increase the volume of the Fighter Bombers so a xMom canŽt bring to many to the battlefield.


This will allow the xMoms to defend themselves against smaller ships and deal dps on capitals, using lesser drones resulting in less laggy fights.

Regards

// Zork



This please!

Kate Pole
Posted - 2009.11.17 19:33:00 - [608]
 

Originally by: Oljud Zork
Edited by: Oljud Zork on 17/11/2009 18:10:34

Originally by: Stafen

The formula for calculating missile damage.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280

Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er;1);(Ev/Er*sig/vel)^(log(drf)/log(5.5)))

Where
sig = ship's signature
vel = ship's velocity
Er = Explosion Radius of missile
Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile
drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile


"Compact Citadel Torpedoes"

Explosion Radius 3500m (2187,5m for Hel with Minmatar Carrier V)
Explosion Velocity 60m
Damage Reduction Factor 6,5
Base Damage 3200 (4000 for Nyx with Gallente Carrier V)

I did the calculations and here are the results for "Compact Citadel Torpedoes" with the current information given by CCP Nozh.

Originally by: Oljud Zork, from iT Alliance Forum

The targets:
Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, In Siege, 1886m sig, 0m/s velocity.
Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, Full Thrust, 1886m sig, 106m/s velocity.
Nidhoggur, Standstill, 2865m sig, 0m/s velocity.
Nidhoggur, Full Thrust, 2865m sig, 112.5m/s velocity.
Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: No difference between standstill or full thrust. The same results are for all the Super Carriers and Titans as well.

Aeon and Wyvern against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 1724 dps and using 5 DCU 2299 dps.
Nyx against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 2155 dps and using 5 DCU 2874 dps.
Hel against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 2759 dps and using 5 DCU 3679 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 869 dps and using 5 DCU 1158 dps.
Nyx against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1086 dps and using 5 DCU 1448 dps.
Hel against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1456 dps and using 5 DCU 1941 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 2619 dps and using 5 DCU 3493 dps.
Nyx against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3274 dps and using 5 DCU 4366 dps.
Hel against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1288 dps and using 5 DCU 1717 dps.
Nyx against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1610 dps and using 5 DCU 2147 dps.
Hel against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 2158 dps and using 5 DCU 2877 dps.

Aeon, Wyvern and Hel against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps.
Nyx against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 4000 dps and using 5 DCU 5333dps.


The calculations clearly show that 15 Fighter Bombers against a siegeŽd dread do less damage than a regular dread in Siege, a Revelation deal ~4000 dps with 2 heat sinks...

The same against a carrier, less dps then a dread do. But against a xMom or a Titan will they do some nice dps starting at 3200 and the Nyx beats all with its 5333 dps using 5 DCU modules.

Conclusion; The new Super Carriers are intended to be used against Super Carriers and Titans.

Why shall we bring a xMom to the capital battlefield when it deal 50% less dps against a Dread then a Dread do?

Solution:
* +3 To all regular drones and Fighters per Carrier Level.
* +1 Fighter Bomber per Carrier Level.
* Reduce the Explosion Radius of missile from 3500m to 1500m.
* Increase the Explosion Velocity from 60m/sec to 75m/sec
* Increase the volume of the Fighter Bombers so a xMom canŽt bring to many to the battlefield.


This will allow the xMoms to defend themselves against smaller ships and deal dps on capitals, using lesser drones resulting in less laggy fights.

Regards

// Zork



/Signed
CCP here..
Wait me, in agreement with IT.. the world is not right.
but
yea this works

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2009.11.18 01:02:00 - [609]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 18/11/2009 01:08:39
Originally by: Oljud Zork

Solution:
* +1 Drone / Fighter / Fighter Bomber per Carrier Level.
* +20% to Fighter Bomber Hitpoints + Damage per Carrier Level
* Reduce the Explosion Radius of missile from 3500m to 3200m.
* Compact Citadel base damage to 3500
* Explosion Velocity back to 45 m/s




Would make more sense this way if you ask me.

Puts more emphasis on the anti-capital role compared to the anti-everything role, would actually make it worthwhile to fit the DCUs and leave some room for damage reduction by speed and signature. And makes sure supercaps are actually taking damage in-line with their huge buffers.

Battle Tested
Shiva
Posted - 2009.11.18 04:11:00 - [610]
 

Originally by: Oljud Zork
Edited by: Oljud Zork on 17/11/2009 18:10:34

Originally by: Stafen

The formula for calculating missile damage.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280

Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er;1);(Ev/Er*sig/vel)^(log(drf)/log(5.5)))

Where
sig = ship's signature
vel = ship's velocity
Er = Explosion Radius of missile
Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile
drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile


"Compact Citadel Torpedoes"

Explosion Radius 3500m (2187,5m for Hel with Minmatar Carrier V)
Explosion Velocity 60m
Damage Reduction Factor 6,5
Base Damage 3200 (4000 for Nyx with Gallente Carrier V)

I did the calculations and here are the results for "Compact Citadel Torpedoes" with the current information given by CCP Nozh.

Originally by: Oljud Zork, from iT Alliance Forum

The targets:
Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, In Siege, 1886m sig, 0m/s velocity.
Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, Full Thrust, 1886m sig, 106m/s velocity.
Nidhoggur, Standstill, 2865m sig, 0m/s velocity.
Nidhoggur, Full Thrust, 2865m sig, 112.5m/s velocity.
Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: No difference between standstill or full thrust. The same results are for all the Super Carriers and Titans as well.

Aeon and Wyvern against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 1724 dps and using 5 DCU 2299 dps.
Nyx against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 2155 dps and using 5 DCU 2874 dps.
Hel against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 2759 dps and using 5 DCU 3679 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 869 dps and using 5 DCU 1158 dps.
Nyx against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1086 dps and using 5 DCU 1448 dps.
Hel against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1456 dps and using 5 DCU 1941 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 2619 dps and using 5 DCU 3493 dps.
Nyx against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3274 dps and using 5 DCU 4366 dps.
Hel against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1288 dps and using 5 DCU 1717 dps.
Nyx against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1610 dps and using 5 DCU 2147 dps.
Hel against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 2158 dps and using 5 DCU 2877 dps.

Aeon, Wyvern and Hel against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps.
Nyx against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 4000 dps and using 5 DCU 5333dps.


The calculations clearly show that 15 Fighter Bombers against a siegeŽd dread do less damage than a regular dread in Siege, a Revelation deal ~4000 dps with 2 heat sinks...

The same against a carrier, less dps then a dread do. But against a xMom or a Titan will they do some nice dps starting at 3200 and the Nyx beats all with its 5333 dps using 5 DCU modules.

Conclusion; The new Super Carriers are intended to be used against Super Carriers and Titans.

Why shall we bring a xMom to the capital battlefield when it deal 50% less dps against a Dread then a Dread do?

Solution:
* +3 To all regular drones and Fighters per Carrier Level.
* +1 Fighter Bomber per Carrier Level.
* Reduce the Explosion Radius of missile from 3500m to 1500m.
* Increase the Explosion Velocity from 60m/sec to 75m/sec
* Increase the volume of the Fighter Bombers so a xMom canŽt bring to many to the battlefield.


This will allow the xMoms to defend themselves against smaller ships and deal dps on capitals, using lesser drones resulting in less laggy fights.

Regards

// Zork



I cant beliieve it but I am agreeing 100% with a member of IT....very nice work put into these calculations Zork, It's amazing how the community base can see this stuff for what it truly is and the game developers seem to overlook it.
/signing off on this as the proper fix to the dps problem

Serena Ku
Gallente
Posted - 2009.11.18 04:50:00 - [611]
 

Well well this explains it.

Oljud Zork's calculations explains why I was seeing odd damage outputs from the fighterbombers. Nice work.

Merbok
Gallente
The Hull Miners Union
Gentlemen's Club
Posted - 2009.11.18 06:35:00 - [612]
 

Quote:
Solution: * +3 To all regular drones and Fighters per Carrier Level. * +1 Fighter Bomber per Carrier Level. * Reduce the Explosion Radius of missile from 3500m to 1500m. * Increase the Explosion Velocity from 60m/sec to 75m/sec * Increase the volume of the Fighter Bombers so a xMom canŽt bring to many to the battlefield. This will allow the xMoms to defend themselves against smaller ships and deal dps on capitals, using lesser drones resulting in less laggy fights. Regards // Zork



SIGNED!

Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2009.11.18 08:04:00 - [613]
 

What baffles me most about these changes is the lack of foundation.

If CCP said 'we want motherships to do x and therefor we have changed them y' it would be much easier to comment on it and provide proper feedback, instead of the massive rage and speculation going on now.

Kkhaarn
Black Serpent Technologies
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2009.11.18 08:44:00 - [614]
 

Originally by: Achura Calda
So if they can dock now , does that mean we can also build them in stations ?


They can't dock. They didn't get the x2 drone bonus back. Seems like a CCP cover up to douse the flames. *shrugs*

Noxious IV
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.18 11:45:00 - [615]
 

sooo we gonna hear from ccp on this matter perhaps a live Q&A with devs would be a good idea Wink

Lusin Gando
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.11.18 12:10:00 - [616]
 

Originally by: Oljud Zork
Edited by: Oljud Zork on 17/11/2009 18:10:34

Originally by: Stafen

The formula for calculating missile damage.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280

Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er;1);(Ev/Er*sig/vel)^(log(drf)/log(5.5)))

Where
sig = ship's signature
vel = ship's velocity
Er = Explosion Radius of missile
Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile
drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile


"Compact Citadel Torpedoes"

Explosion Radius 3500m (2187,5m for Hel with Minmatar Carrier V)
Explosion Velocity 60m
Damage Reduction Factor 6,5
Base Damage 3200 (4000 for Nyx with Gallente Carrier V)

I did the calculations and here are the results for "Compact Citadel Torpedoes" with the current information given by CCP Nozh.

Originally by: Oljud Zork, from iT Alliance Forum

The targets:
Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, In Siege, 1886m sig, 0m/s velocity.
Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, Full Thrust, 1886m sig, 106m/s velocity.
Nidhoggur, Standstill, 2865m sig, 0m/s velocity.
Nidhoggur, Full Thrust, 2865m sig, 112.5m/s velocity.
Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: No difference between standstill or full thrust. The same results are for all the Super Carriers and Titans as well.

Aeon and Wyvern against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 1724 dps and using 5 DCU 2299 dps.
Nyx against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 2155 dps and using 5 DCU 2874 dps.
Hel against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 2759 dps and using 5 DCU 3679 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 869 dps and using 5 DCU 1158 dps.
Nyx against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1086 dps and using 5 DCU 1448 dps.
Hel against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1456 dps and using 5 DCU 1941 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 2619 dps and using 5 DCU 3493 dps.
Nyx against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3274 dps and using 5 DCU 4366 dps.
Hel against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1288 dps and using 5 DCU 1717 dps.
Nyx against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1610 dps and using 5 DCU 2147 dps.
Hel against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 2158 dps and using 5 DCU 2877 dps.

Aeon, Wyvern and Hel against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps.
Nyx against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 4000 dps and using 5 DCU 5333dps.


The calculations clearly show that 15 Fighter Bombers against a siegeŽd dread do less damage than a regular dread in Siege, a Revelation deal ~4000 dps with 2 heat sinks...

The same against a carrier, less dps then a dread do. But against a xMom or a Titan will they do some nice dps starting at 3200 and the Nyx beats all with its 5333 dps using 5 DCU modules.

Conclusion; The new Super Carriers are intended to be used against Super Carriers and Titans.

Why shall we bring a xMom to the capital battlefield when it deal 50% less dps against a Dread then a Dread do?

Solution:
* +3 To all regular drones and Fighters per Carrier Level.
* +1 Fighter Bomber per Carrier Level.
* Reduce the Explosion Radius of missile from 3500m to 1500m.
* Increase the Explosion Velocity from 60m/sec to 75m/sec
* Increase the volume of the Fighter Bombers so a xMom canŽt bring to many to the battlefield.


This will allow the xMoms to defend themselves against smaller ships and deal dps on capitals, using lesser drones resulting in less laggy fights.

Regards

// Zork



/signed Very Happy

A Skywalker
FinFleet
IT Alliance
Posted - 2009.11.18 12:12:00 - [617]
 

Originally by: Oljud Zork
Edited by: Oljud Zork on 17/11/2009 18:10:34

Originally by: Stafen

The formula for calculating missile damage.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=901280

Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(MIN(sig/Er;1);(Ev/Er*sig/vel)^(log(drf)/log(5.5)))

Where
sig = ship's signature
vel = ship's velocity
Er = Explosion Radius of missile
Ev = Explosion Velocity of missile
drf = Damage Reduction Factor of missile


"Compact Citadel Torpedoes"

Explosion Radius 3500m (2187,5m for Hel with Minmatar Carrier V)
Explosion Velocity 60m
Damage Reduction Factor 6,5
Base Damage 3200 (4000 for Nyx with Gallente Carrier V)

I did the calculations and here are the results for "Compact Citadel Torpedoes" with the current information given by CCP Nozh.

Originally by: Oljud Zork, from iT Alliance Forum

The targets:
Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, In Siege, 1886m sig, 0m/s velocity.
Naglfar with 3x Lg CDFE I, Full Thrust, 1886m sig, 106m/s velocity.
Nidhoggur, Standstill, 2865m sig, 0m/s velocity.
Nidhoggur, Full Thrust, 2865m sig, 112.5m/s velocity.
Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: No difference between standstill or full thrust. The same results are for all the Super Carriers and Titans as well.

Aeon and Wyvern against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 1724 dps and using 5 DCU 2299 dps.
Nyx against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 2155 dps and using 5 DCU 2874 dps.
Hel against a SiegeŽd Naglfar: 2759 dps and using 5 DCU 3679 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 869 dps and using 5 DCU 1158 dps.
Nyx against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1086 dps and using 5 DCU 1448 dps.
Hel against a Naglfar, Full Thrust: 1456 dps and using 5 DCU 1941 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 2619 dps and using 5 DCU 3493 dps.
Nyx against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3274 dps and using 5 DCU 4366 dps.
Hel against Nidhoggur, Standstill: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps.

Aeon and Wyvern against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1288 dps and using 5 DCU 1717 dps.
Nyx against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 1610 dps and using 5 DCU 2147 dps.
Hel against Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 2158 dps and using 5 DCU 2877 dps.

Aeon, Wyvern and Hel against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 3200 dps and using 5 DCU 4267 dps.
Nyx against Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 4000 dps and using 5 DCU 5333dps.


The calculations clearly show that 15 Fighter Bombers against a siegeŽd dread do less damage than a regular dread in Siege, a Revelation deal ~4000 dps with 2 heat sinks...

The same against a carrier, less dps then a dread do. But against a xMom or a Titan will they do some nice dps starting at 3200 and the Nyx beats all with its 5333 dps using 5 DCU modules.

Conclusion; The new Super Carriers are intended to be used against Super Carriers and Titans.

Why shall we bring a xMom to the capital battlefield when it deal 50% less dps against a Dread then a Dread do?

Solution:
* +3 To all regular drones and Fighters per Carrier Level.
* +1 Fighter Bomber per Carrier Level.
* Reduce the Explosion Radius of missile from 3500m to 1500m.
* Increase the Explosion Velocity from 60m/sec to 75m/sec
* Increase the volume of the Fighter Bombers so a xMom canŽt bring to many to the battlefield.


This will allow the xMoms to defend themselves against smaller ships and deal dps on capitals, using lesser drones resulting in less laggy fights.

Regards

// Zork



/Signed

Kindjal
Amarr
Hooded Underworld Guys
Order Of The Unforgiving
Posted - 2009.11.18 12:17:00 - [618]
 

/agree

ESF Hyperion
Minmatar
Total Mayhem.
Posted - 2009.11.18 12:18:00 - [619]
 

/signed

Toshi Lee
Posted - 2009.11.18 12:23:00 - [620]
 

/signed YARRRR!!

Brother Theos
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2009.11.18 12:52:00 - [621]
 

/signed.

Much better than the current xMoM stats.

Oljud Zork
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.18 12:57:00 - [622]
 

Originally by: Oljud Zork

Solution:
* +3 To all regular drones and Fighters per Carrier Level.
* +1 Fighter Bomber per Carrier Level.
* Reduce the Explosion Radius of missile from 3500m to 1500m.
* Increase the Explosion Velocity from 60m/sec to 75m/sec
* Increase the volume of the Fighter Bombers so a xMom canŽt bring to many to the battlefield.


This will allow the xMoms to defend themselves against smaller ships and deal dps on capitals, using lesser drones resulting in less laggy fights.



With these changes will the xMom be able to hit all moving capitals, but the total dps are still 3200 and it is lower then a Dreadnought...

About the size of the Fighter Bomber, today is it 7500m3 per unit comparing it to a Fighter which is 5000m3.

For example, an AeonŽs drone bay are 200 000m3 and the smallest of all the Super Carriers. Before when it was a Mom could it hold 40 Fighters and launch 20. Now lets play with the idea that we get my suggested change +3 Fighters and regular drones and +1 Fighter Bomber per racial carrier level. This will give the Aeon space for 13 Fighter Bombers and 20 Fighters or 40 Fighters or 26 Fighter Bombers if the pilot decide to carry only Fighters or Fighter Bombers. This works fine but if an Aeon can launch 10 Fighter Bombers do I think that having 3 to 16 in spare are little to much, therefore increase the size of the Fighter Bomber to, lets say 10 000m3, and now are we on the same ratio as the Mom was. With 10 Fighter Bombers to launch and 10 spare, if the pilot decide to carry both Fighters and Fighter Bombers can he/she fit a full rack of both but no spare drones, and now to my point; This will encourage the pilot to bring Fighter Bombers and take part in the anti capital fleet, and can loose all the Fighter Bombers and still be able to replace them one time!

Considering the dps; 3200 are to low for using against a dread. I want the Fighter Bombers as they were intended by CCP Abathur but I donŽt want 20 of them I want 10 doing the same dps, fleet fights are always laggy and reducing lag with lesser drones at the same dps are a nice way.

A suggestion for changes on the "Compact Citadel Torpedo" for the dps so that the Super Carrier really become super and can deal real damage on a siegeŽd dread.

Base Damage 8000 <- Nuts? No, let me show you!
Explosion Radius 3500m
Explosion Velocity 75m/sec
Damage Reduction Factor 6,5


Aeon vs. SiegeŽd Naglfar: 4311 dps and using 5 DCU 5748 dps.
Aeon vs. Naglfar Full Thrust: 2775 dps and using 5 DCU 3700 dps.
Aeon vs. Nidhoggur, Standstill: 6549 dps and using 5 DCU 8731 dps.
Aeon vs. Nidhoggur, Full Thrust: 4094 dps and using 5 DCU 5459.
Aeon vs. Hel, Standstill and Full Thrust: 8000 dps and using 5 DCU 10667 dps.
Aeon vs. Apocalypse, Standstill: 914 dps and using 5 DCU 1219 dps.
Aeon vs. Apocalypse, Full Thrust: 577 dps and using 5 DCU 769 dps.

You wanted an Anti-Capital ship this is a anti-capital ship. It deals the same dps as a siegeŽd dread and it can hit moving dreads with reduced damage. Most of all it deal a lot of damage on Super Carriers and Titans. Using 5 DCU will increase the dps a lot but itŽs risky and I highly doubt that any Super Carrier pilot will fit that many DCUŽs...

Regards

// Zork

Ryan Coolness
The Littlest Hobos
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2009.11.18 13:08:00 - [623]
 

Edited by: Ryan Coolness on 18/11/2009 13:10:38
For a 6b (9b on open market prolly) ship that can dock the damage figures seem acceptable, even though they are not very impressive in all honesty. Are the numbers with current 10 f/b or with the proposed but not implemented 15 f/b btw ?


Still, imho the whole direction it is still the completely wrong approach, they should:

- cost double the above amount (12b build, ~18b market)

- do double that dps, be it with 10, 15 or 20 f/b, doesnt matter

- be able to carry at least 1 spare wave of f/b (meaning either 10 f/b get damage boost or drone bay gets increased if we go back to 20 f/b)

- and that is the most important part: not be able to dock


Yes, that is pretty much what Seleene suggested (man has a clue really) and far more balanced and problematic then the recently suggested changes.


PS:
oh and if you seriously want to encourage fitting drone control units, increase their bonus to +2 (+3 if you go back to 20 bombers), so equivalent of 1 carrier level, makes sense huh?

McFly
Peanut Factory
Posted - 2009.11.18 14:41:00 - [624]
 

New patch on SiSi and still +1 fighter/lvl

When are we going to get a CCP Response or the mythical DevBlog... Dominion is only 13 days away now.

FREE ABATHUR
INFORM THE COMMUNITY

This is a big change to the game, it may not effect the majority of pilots but it will have a major impact on 0.0 which is what Dominion was supposed to be centered on. 13 days is all that's left to make sense of it and we still don't have a finalized or even CCP verified decision on Motherships.

Please fill in the gaps here, we've got nothing but questions and after nearly a week and 3 sisi patches no answers....

ArmagedonLT
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2009.11.18 15:27:00 - [625]
 

Abathur just published a new devblog but nothing about moms or titans in it, what is he doing! SAVE US ABATHUR!

Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2009.11.18 16:01:00 - [626]
 

Originally by: Oljud Zork
Base Damage 8000 <- Nuts? No, let me show you!
Explosion Radius 3500m
Explosion Velocity 75m/sec
Damage Reduction Factor 6,5

Sounds a bit risky to me, because there are things like webs and target painters.
Bombers are not meant to wtfbbq sub-capitals with relatively little effort.

Grath Telkin
Amarr
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2009.11.18 18:01:00 - [627]
 

Psst, Hey, guys, secret time:

Have you noticed that CCP have been trying to downsize drone populations on ships for some time now?

Smaller drone bays, bandwith, the proposed carrier/mom nerf of legend.

All of these had one thing in common, CCP's driving goal to reduce the number of drones encountered in any single combat situation to manageable numbers, to assist in the overall reduction of lag.

If you REALLY want to get your "low DPS" views across, you need to start thinking of ideas along those lines, not with situations that increase the number of drones present in an engagement.

Higher overall dps from the 10 fighter bombers, and increase in standard fighter damage, maybe, JUST MAYBE, make Drone Control Units act like Heat sinks or Mag stabs for carriers (this could even be made a mod for smaller ships like the Ishtar, Domi) where instead of increasing the NUMBER of drones you put out, it increases the DAMAGE your drones put out.

I think you'll find CCPs goal is to severely limit the amount of drones you see in combat, if your not working along those lines for a solution, I think you'll find yourself banging your head against a brick wall.

Oljud Zork
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2009.11.18 18:56:00 - [628]
 

Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Originally by: Oljud Zork

Base Damage 8000 <- Nuts? No, let me show you!
Explosion Radius 3500m
Explosion Velocity 75m/sec
Damage Reduction Factor 6,5



Sounds a bit risky to me, because there are things like webs and target painters.
Bombers are not meant to wtfbbq sub-capitals with relatively little effort.


You are absolutely right about that! Did you bather to read the lines showing dps against an Apocalypse?

Originally by: Oljud Zork
Aeon vs. Apocalypse, Standstill: 914 dps and using 5 DCU 1219 dps.
Aeon vs. Apocalypse, Full Thrust: 577 dps and using 5 DCU 769 dps.


If you face sub-capitals use Fighters or regular drones. Or you might be the dude that field Fighters against Frigates??? Which is pretty daft.

The Fighter Bombers are intended to be used against Super Capitals hence the huge Explosion Radius and slow Explosion Velocity. You counter that with being small and use speed...

577 dps against a Battleship are **** when you can field 15-20 Fighter and perform 1500-2000 dps, donŽt you think? Why do you want to web and target paint a battleship to deal ~600+ dps?

Dreads and Carriers in Siege and Triage are EWAR immune and using a Target Painter and webs wonŽt work on them...

My suggested changes to the "Compact Citadel Torpedo" are just to show how wrong CCP Nozh are with his changes if he wants to use the Super Carriers as anti-capital ships.

By downgrading the Explosion velocity from 75m/sec to 45m/sec will it deal ~290 dps against an Apocalypse but still deal a hell of a lot dps on Super Capitals, but a lot less on moving capitals. The 45ms/sec are the one CCP Abathur suggested in the first place.

Regards

// Zork



Jack Sparroxx
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2009.11.18 19:15:00 - [629]
 

The way I read you math I can only agree with your suggestion 100%

But it also shows that CCP Nozh seems to be totally clueless about the basic mechanics in this game

Kaitou Shiroi
Dark-Rising
Posted - 2009.11.18 20:47:00 - [630]
 

/signed

Nice math, Oljud. We need more of this in this discussion, and less screaming, whining, and otherwise flaming of CCP Nozh. Destroy him with facts and numbers, not with emo-raging and weeping.


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