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Elapidae
Posted - 2009.09.17 17:53:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Elapidae on 17/09/2009 17:54:02
Originally by: Crackzilla
Edited by: Crackzilla on 17/09/2009 17:50:55
Originally by: Spaztick
I'm not sure I understand the whines here. A Moros in siege can still do 1100 dps with 5 Ogre IIs.


You won't be using ogre ii's 95% of the time. Bouncer IIs which cut into the dps. Plus you're limited to 57-60km range. I'd rather have another rail or a better bonus (rnge?) to the 3x ones we do have.

I'd rather the drone bonus cut in half out of siege and a 100% drone control range. That would make me happy.

Or as been suggested keep the dps bonus but cut the hp bonus so drones die fast to sentry guns.



Even with a drone control range bonus, you dont really have slots to fit omni tracking links, so your sentry range still sucks, and you have to drop down to warden ****ty dps.

imo, remove the drone bonus completely, give another rail bonus. megathron dread instead of dominix dread.

Ulstan
Posted - 2009.09.17 20:26:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Geminimixer
Nerfing one of Gallente's last good ships is a good way to lose players. I am nearly 100% Gallente specced with Gall frigs V, Cruiser V and BS V and the only ship that I find to be competitive is the Dominix. I now spend nearly 0 time in Gallente ships.


What is this nonsense?

The gallente have a ton of good ships. The taranis is the best interceptor. The Ishkur is the best AF. The Thorax is the best T1 cruiser (or at least tied with rupture). The Brutix is an amazing tier 1 battlecruiser -did you see how many were fielded in the AT? Myrmidon, Ishtar, and Dominix are all great, and saw heavy use in the AT. Even mega's featured prominently. The dominix is possibly the best and most versatile BS in the entire game.

There was certainly a much greater showing for Gallente BS than Minmtar BS in the AT.


Originally by: Traxex Khan
[You guys are killing me. Will someone go quote the description of the moros? It SAYS in the description that out of all the dreads, it is the one most able to "fend off smaller foes."


Are you seriously trying to advocate game balance decisions based on ship descriptions? Ship descriptions are worthless. Half the ships in EVE aren't worth flying and the ship descriptions do not say this.

Having super powered drone deploying Moros station camping and popping sub caps with such ease was ridiculous, and its being fixed. If you never did that, this change won't really impact you. If you did that, your tears are delicious, please continue.

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.17 20:35:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
its being fixed. If you never did that, this change won't really impact you.


But it will. Relatively few station camped. Most pilots fly the Moros because of that unsieged drone bonus. Without that bonus and with the weakness of the moros then other dreads are preferred.

So every pilot that uses a Moros will feel this nerf while few station camped.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2009.09.17 20:48:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Crackzilla
Most pilots fly the Moros because of that unsieged drone bonus. Without that bonus and with the weakness of the moros then other dreads are preferred.
So ask them to give you a bonus that makes it worth sieging it.

Psiri
Posted - 2009.09.17 21:12:00 - [95]
 

I like the proposed change, capitals IMO should have no place in sub-capital and non-POS engagements.

Geminimixer
Posted - 2009.09.18 03:51:00 - [96]
 

Edited by: Geminimixer on 18/09/2009 03:52:16
Quote:
The gallente have a ton of good ships. The taranis is the best interceptor. The Ishkur is the best AF. The Thorax is the best T1 cruiser (or at least tied with rupture). The Brutix is an amazing tier 1 battlecruiser -did you see how many were fielded in the AT? Myrmidon, Ishtar


Sure they are good ships, its just the fact that the harbinger outclasses all of them by a long way. The harb compared to the ishtar, has more EHP, aligns faster and does 600dps out to 30km and costs 100 mill less. Why bother flying any of those Gallente ships..

In a gang all of those ships are redundant.


Omara Otawan
Posted - 2009.09.18 05:20:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Omara Otawan on 18/09/2009 05:22:07
Originally by: Geminimixer

The harb compared to the ishtar, has more EHP, aligns faster and does 600dps out to 30km and costs 100 mill less. Why bother flying any of those Gallente ships..



The Ishtar does 475 dps (ogres only, add in turrets) with vastly superior range, and for the record it aligns much faster than the harbinger (4.9 sec base Ishtar vs 8 sec base Harb on max skills), plus it has a much lower signature and is way faster.

Not everything is EHP and dps numbers, or there would be no reason to fly a Harbinger over a Drake.

Suukovesta
Posted - 2009.09.18 10:40:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Originally by: Geminimixer
Nerfing one of Gallente's last good ships is a good way to lose players. I am nearly 100% Gallente specced with Gall frigs V, Cruiser V and BS V and the only ship that I find to be competitive is the Dominix. I now spend nearly 0 time in Gallente ships.


What is this nonsense?

The gallente have a ton of good ships. The taranis is the best interceptor. The Ishkur is the best AF. The Thorax is the best T1 cruiser (or at least tied with rupture). The Brutix is an amazing tier 1 battlecruiser -did you see how many were fielded in the AT? Myrmidon, Ishtar, and Dominix are all great, and saw heavy use in the AT. Even mega's featured prominently. The dominix is possibly the best and most versatile BS in the entire game.

There was certainly a much greater showing for Gallente BS than Minmtar BS in the AT.



This is so 2006. Please stop spreading your nonsense, you obviously have no clue.

Wideen
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2009.09.18 12:44:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wideen
I don't see how this is a problem.

the moros will still have the advantage over other dreads of killing smaller ships (from frigates to bs) quickly with a neigh over-powered drone bonus, now it just has to commit to the fight before doing so. That it can do so in siege is however acceptable imo
The problem — in fact, the only problem with this change — is that in siege, it will take roughly 93 years (give or take) for a Moros to lock onto a subcap…


dreads are anti-capital/structure ships, not subcap solo pwners. The rest of the dreads have this problems as well, except they don't have a drone bonus.

Shepard Book
Posted - 2009.09.18 13:12:00 - [100]
 

I am so glad my thanny pilot has not trained Gal guns yet. I was also hoping to go moros but guess I will go back to the drawing board and see which if any dread I want now.

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.18 13:32:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Wideen

dreads are anti-capital/structure ships, not subcap solo pwners. The rest of the dreads have this problems as well, except they don't have a drone bonus.


The moros isn't a subcap solo pwner that much more than the rorqual or carriers. While the dps is good it isn't that far off from a blaster mega. The reason why it has been used as a station camper is because of the combination of drone dps and hp buffer.

The rest of the dreads have compelling reasons to fly them, with the possible exception of the phoenix. So should we nerf the rev because it doesn't need ammo? Or the nag because it has 4 weapon high slots and good dps at range? Or the phoenix because it can change ammo type?

Tiel Enim
Posted - 2009.09.18 15:49:00 - [102]
 

This is what comes out of being a station hugging r.e.t.a.r.d. ebil piwat.

Whos laughing now when the nerf-bat hits you in the middle of your face?

Noosebleed much?

CyberRaver
Wildly Inappropriate
Posted - 2009.09.18 15:56:00 - [103]
 

Anyone not happy with the nerf should chat to safina kalore, who has made a living out of station humping in her moros,specially fit to take on everything small
Always the minority ruining it for the majority

Rossarian
Posted - 2009.09.18 16:22:00 - [104]
 

Enjoying station hugging with my Moros myself (and tbh it is no more lame than most other 'good tactics', like cloak monkeys, sniper hacs etc...), I am saddened by the prospect of losing one of my favorite pastimes.
But on the bright side, I will be 1.5+ bil the richer after the change, and won't ever have to bother with a boring pos siege again, so there are good sides to this as well.

Tiel Enim
Posted - 2009.09.18 16:32:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Rossarian
Enjoying station hugging with my Moros myself (and tbh it is no more lame than most other 'good tactics', like cloak monkeys, sniper hacs etc...), I am saddened by the prospect of losing one of my favorite pastimes.
But on the bright side, I will be 1.5+ bil the richer after the change, and won't ever have to bother with a boring pos siege again, so there are good sides to this as well.

Yepp. Leave the dreads to real combat pilots and you mouthbreathers can go back to gatecamping in low sec.

Win - win situation!

baltec1
Posted - 2009.09.18 16:40:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Tiel Enim
This is what comes out of being a station hugging r.e.t.a.r.d. ebil piwat.

Whos laughing now when the nerf-bat hits you in the middle of your face?

Noosebleed much?



rorqual gank boats are just as deadly and a more common sight...

Tom Peeping
Posted - 2009.09.18 20:50:00 - [107]
 

This is an extremely appropriate change...

One thing of note: While this may change how some players have to play, the ship hasn't actually been seriously nerfed here. It retains the ability (alone in it's class) to be effective versus support ships.

The only change now is that the pilot has to commit to the battle... no more dock games with it. Either you're going to fight or your not. If you make the decision to fight, the ship is as good as it ever was.

I'm pretty glad to see CCP making this change tbh.

TheEggman
Posted - 2009.09.18 21:07:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Tom Peeping
This is an extremely appropriate change...

One thing of note: While this may change how some players have to play, the ship hasn't actually been seriously nerfed here. It retains the ability (alone in it's class) to be effective versus support ships.

The only change now is that the pilot has to commit to the battle... no more dock games with it. Either you're going to fight or your not. If you make the decision to fight, the ship is as good as it ever was.

I'm pretty glad to see CCP making this change tbh.


That comment would be valid if you could lock more than 2 targets while in siege and it didn't take 2 minutes to lock subcaps while in siege. As it is the primary target will be taking one target slot, so you can target one other ship in 2 minutes, send drones after it, most likely have it warp off, then spend another 2 minutes trying to lock another sub-cap. That's not exactly capable vs. sub-caps. It's a serious nerf.

The rev is just better than a Moros at all normal dread tasks. The nag has as good a tank and better damage. The phoenix is a bit lower on DPS but can select its damage type and has insane range with good DPS which makes it fairly decent. The capital railguns suck pretty badly for damage and the use of sentry drones is required to get decent DPS on a target in siege, while the drones themselves are quite vulnerable and a real pain to try to pick up after the fight. That makes the Moros sub-par for typical dread ops, but it was still OK since it had the nest chance of killing off tacklers outside of siege. It traded off functionality in siege for functionailty out of it. Now it just sucks at both.

And FYI, I fly Rev, not a Moros.

Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.18 21:16:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Tom Peeping

One thing of note: While this may change how some players have to play, the ship hasn't actually been seriously nerfed here. It retains the ability (alone in it's class) to be effective versus support ships.


As stated in as many ways possible that this nerf will make it ineffective against support ships. There is no compelling reason to fly the moros while there are good reasons for the rev & nag.


Originally by: Tom Peeping

The only change now is that the pilot has to commit to the battle... no more dock games with it. Either you're going to fight or your not. If you make the decision to fight, the ship is as good as it ever was.



Leaving the barn door open for the station camping rorqual, thanatos, archon, chimera, or nid. Plus plated gank bs.

Docking games are what should have been nerfed. I hate low sec because of docking games and jumping back to empire. Increase aggro timer and the problem would have fixed itself.

Norris Packard
Wings of Redemption
Black Flag Alliance
Posted - 2009.09.18 22:13:00 - [110]
 

Blaster Issues: There are many issues being presented here about the Dreadnought class of ships, Dreadnoughts have always felt to me to be the gunboats of the capital fleet but they are mostly pittiful out of seige and can't really bring their close ranged weapons to bear on POS or moving Capital ships. The inability to move when seiged seems to be a major issue, yes seige should negate warp and jump abilitys, but seems the ships should be able to still do their slow basic manuvering thus being able to stay with other capitals and bring their firepower to bear.

Drone Change Issues: Like the proposed change to the Carrier's siege mode (would make them able to move sieged also) maybe making the dreads a 5min duration would also make this change to the moros less felt. Someone also mentioned making the moros drones still get 10% per level out of siege and that seems like a good idea. The last big issue about the seige is how long it takes to lock on and it should take a long time to lock but the 2 lock on limit means that after the drones deal with a ship they have not locked onto the next ship yet, making the seige mode limit targets locked has never made much sense to me so maybe a solution to the issue is just abolishing it.

Emperor D'Hoffryn
EXTERMINATUS.
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2009.09.18 23:56:00 - [111]
 

Im not sure why everyone thinks the Rev is just so awesome.

It has horrible cap problems. Just firing its guns along will get its cap down into at least the 40% range. If you have to tank at the same time, forget about it. Phoenix and Nag has capless weapons, Moros might drop below jump cap in POS seiges, but it quickly gets back up. After a prolonged siege of just shooting a defenseless POS, a Rev requires minutes of sitting on the field to cap up, before it can jump, a moros can jump almost immediately...Unless you brought carriers just to cap transfer the Revs...

The whole "lasers are overpowered" meme going around really confuses me. CCP removed 10% em resist on armor, 10% explosive on shields, gave the apoc a range bonus, the zealot an extra turret, and suddenly lasers are overpowered?

People have obviously not finished training their amarr skill yet Rolling Eyes

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2009.09.19 01:08:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
Im not sure why everyone thinks the Rev is just so awesome.

It has horrible cap problems. Just firing its guns along will get its cap down into at least the 40% range. If you have to tank at the same time, forget about it. Phoenix and Nag has capless weapons, Moros might drop below jump cap in POS seiges, but it quickly gets back up. After a prolonged siege of just shooting a defenseless POS, a Rev requires minutes of sitting on the field to cap up, before it can jump, a moros can jump almost immediately...Unless you brought carriers just to cap transfer the Revs...

The whole "lasers are overpowered" meme going around really confuses me. CCP removed 10% em resist on armor, 10% explosive on shields, gave the apoc a range bonus, the zealot an extra turret, and suddenly lasers are overpowered?

People have obviously not finished training their amarr skill yet Rolling Eyes


I consider the drone nerf in the Moros necessary and well done. But I can't stay quite facing these clueless remarks.

Lasers ARE horrible overpowered. And the revelation is the best dread by a ridiculous margin, there is no motive in this game to train for anything else.

Aditionally rails are a HEAVIER cap drain over the Moros than Lasers are over the Revelation, just to let you know. And neither the Moros nor the Revelation need to wait more than a couple minutes to jump after siege, unless you fit them horribly.


Crackzilla
The Shadow Order
Posted - 2009.09.19 04:12:00 - [113]
 

Edited by: Crackzilla on 19/09/2009 04:13:51
Originally by: Norris Packard
the moros drones still get 10% per level out of siege


Meanwhile the rorqual has a better bonus if I recall. So we need to nerf the rorqual next? Then carriers?


Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
Im not sure why everyone thinks the Rev is just so awesome.



Because the Rev and the Nag doesn't rely on drone damage that stops at 60km. If you're willing to wait for the torps even phoenix is better in this regard. Which is why if a nerf is a must many have asked for the drone bonus to be dropped completely and bonus the rails properly.


Originally by: Etho Demerzel
unless you fit them horribly.



With trimark setups cap is a bit of an issue when trying to perma run the tank. But yeah if the tank is turned for a bit then cap shouldn't be an issue.

Dixi We
Posted - 2009.09.20 14:48:00 - [114]
 

I'm really disappointed about Moros drones nerf.

I'm always looking for PvE fun in game. Next my plan was to make a Moros to hunt in belts. I do not care that it's umm... made for different things. Is has good dps with sentry drones so why not? And now it's going to be nerfed. :-(
Very disappointing. If I were already trained for it, I whould be much more upset - because it take a lot of time.

EVE is fun to play, due to is diversity. One well known guy is mining Veldspar in Revelation(?) in Amarr. That dread also never made for that goal. Show CCP forbid minig laser installation on it? I do not think so.

Same about Moroes. It has good bonus to drones, witch compensate it's less usefulness in primary goal (as I was told), compared to other dreads. Ships should be different. I do not think Moroes is too overpowered now.

Bluemelon
Posted - 2009.09.21 11:22:00 - [115]
 

The Moros was somehow special in certain situation due to its drone bonus. Now CCP has chosen to remove this plus; nothing to say about that, but Moros now need to be put in line with our Dreads in terms of efficiency and damage. I agree a good way may be to compensate the lost drone bonus with an Hybrid bonus.

chockojako
Posted - 2009.09.25 03:09:00 - [116]
 

Station hugging complaint cry babies, please shut up. What do you do if a battleship hugs a station and shoots you? What happens when a BC shoots you at a station? also, many stations kick you out and one other thing go to high sec to feel safe. Or Lets fix this Problem and make all PvP in low sec optional, that way no one has to complain about being shot at, now wipe those tears away because I know how much PvE is in your hearts.

The Moros had a great character in having the drone bonus. This balancing act CCP does really take away from the races. Maybe every1 should start as amarr then we could all fly all the same ships and all the complaints would go away and CCP would have to actually do something like fix all the game bugs currently and the many that will be added to the next patch.


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